User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-03-06

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:06]	Malbers Linden:	Hi all.
[15:06]	Jacek Antonelli:	hey Ben
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	hi folks
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy ben!
[15:07]	Yuu Nakamichi:	hi ben
[15:07]	Malbers Linden:	Ben is also on his way. He's finishing up his last meeting
[15:07]	Mastorian Kingsford:	hi
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry I'm late
[15:07]	Malbers Linden:	ah, there's ben
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	last meeting ran over
[15:07]	Harleen Gretzky:	Hi Ben
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	wow full house today
[15:07]	There is no suitable surface to sit on, try another spot.
[15:07]	Squirrel Wood:	yep
[15:07]	Mastorian Kingsford:	nee more chairs lol
[15:07]	Squirrel Wood:	Dazzle Dazzle!
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:09]	Malbers Linden:	So, Dazzle is cool AND Windlight is cool but you'd rather get the Windlight effects more than Dazzle
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	is everyone here in the voice channel?
[15:09]	Squirrel Wood:	Seems so ^^
[15:09]	Siann Beck:	No.
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	Ghost is complimenting us on Dazzle and Windlight
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	:-)
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks Ghost!
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	but since everyone isn't in the voice channel we should probably continue the meeting in text
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	harleen I can hear you typing
[15:10]	Yuu Nakamichi's happy to relog for voice :)
[15:10]	Siann Beck:	Ah. I haven't played with Dazzle, but WL is great.
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	Text is better anyway -- transcript
[15:10]	Jason Swain:	Thats a great shame we are not all on voice
[15:10]	Squirrel Wood:	The problem is that some stuck up "designers" hate windlight because their "skins" and "textures" don't look good with the different shading model and they refuse to adapt and build on WL to be ready :p
[15:11]	Mastorian Kingsford:	i be happy to see names in my contacts and not just wating on all my friends names instead?
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	vote for SVC-85 then
[15:11]	Jason Swain:	Hello James
[15:12]	Malbers Linden:	yeah, Dazzle + Windlight (sometime...)
[15:12]	Squirrel Wood:	Hello James!
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	welcome James
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted waves to james
[15:13]	Malbers Linden:	Yes, WL and Dazzle developed separately. To be combined when ready.
[15:14]	James Linden:	hello
[15:14]	Harleen Gretzky:	Hi James
[15:14]	McCabe Maxsted:	heheh
[15:14]	McCabe Maxsted:	not since october I think
[15:14]	James Linden:	I can go later if you have other business
[15:14]	James Linden:	ok
[15:14]	James Linden:	internally, we're trying to focus more on the new user experience
[15:14]	James Linden:	so, for example
[15:14]	James Linden:	we're doing in person user tests in-house
[15:15]	James Linden:	for our company, new user retention is really important
[15:15]	James Linden:	but I'm not sure how to engage you guys with new user feedback
[15:15]	James Linden:	because the issues they hit
[15:15]	James Linden:	are frequently things that we as experienced users never encounter
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli nods
[15:16]	Squirrel Wood:	Still we may know how to "get around" those issues?
[15:16]	James Linden:	in particular, I've got a team of myself + 2 other interval devs
[15:16]	Malbers Linden:	for example, default locations for windows -- none of us see that (since we've moved out windows)
[15:16]	James Linden:	trying to fix issues specifically for the first hour experience
[15:16]	Malbers Linden:	moved our windows)
[15:16]	James Linden:	I just wondered how interested you guys were in that project
[15:16]	McCabe Maxsted:	are there any specific issues you'd like to talk about? I'm very interested
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood:	default locations.... I would offer two or three different layouts and let the user choose ?
[15:17]	BugTest Dumpling:	Yay
[15:17]	James Linden:	so
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	It definitely sounds worthwhile
[15:17]	James Linden:	I just took the release notes dialogs out of the installer
[15:17]	James Linden:	(the file is still there)
[15:17]	James Linden:	because it's ireelevant and confusing to new users
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood:	and have each layout show more or less of the UI as a 2nd "stage" of selection
[15:17]	James Linden:	this might piss you off :-)
[15:17]	James Linden:	One thing I'd like feedback on, though
[15:17]	James Linden:	is a problem we see in the orientation island
[15:18]	James Linden:	new users don't know which objects in a scene are interactive
[15:18]	Squirrel Wood:	So they choose the layout and amount of information / feedback they want
[15:18]	James Linden:	they can't tell just by looking what to try to click
[15:18]	James Linden:	and the cursor change feedback is too slow
[15:18]	Squirrel Wood:	flash/glow on mouseover ?
[15:18]	James Linden:	so we're working on some sort of visual indication that an object is cickable
[15:18]	James Linden:	and trying to make the object under cursor detection faster
[15:19]	James Linden:	I believe that effects just on hover are not enough
[15:19]	James Linden:	at least in the beginning
[15:19]	McCabe Maxsted:	not everyone can see glow though (I can't). James, that's good news. People use the lag on the sit cursor to grief
[15:19]	Mastorian Kingsford:	old days they made stuff blink to be noticed
[15:19]	Squirrel Wood:	or mayhaps have touchable objects "flash" in general until turned off by the user?
[15:19]	BugTest Dumpling:	Make the pbject 'light up'
[15:19]	BugTest Dumpling:	?
[15:19]	James Linden:	We tried silhoettes
[15:19]	McCabe Maxsted:	why not simple signs?
[15:19]	James Linden:	sillhouettes
[15:19]	James Linden:	didn't work visually
[15:20]	James Linden:	current prototype uses hover icons like the script error icon
[15:20]	James Linden:	but I could use some input on how builders would deal with the icons
[15:20]	James Linden:	hmm
[15:20]	James Linden:	maybe I need to publish a screenshot of this
[15:20]	Squirrel Wood:	or like on a 1st person shooter HUD... move a rectangle to a touchable object in view, have it flash a couple times and display "touchable object" ?
[15:20]	Yuu Nakamichi:	please do
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Perhaps some sort of icon that would float near the object in 3D? Maybe an animated picture of a finger poking something
[15:20]	McCabe Maxsted:	a screenshot would be nice
[15:21]	Siann Beck:	I would say, if you're going to add some effect to the object, make it so the creator can turn it off if desired.
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	or even a particle
[15:21]	James Linden:	but let's assume I was going to paste a graphic on top of your builds
[15:21]	BugTest Dumpling:	Ooh don't even temtp SL again LOL
[15:21]	BugTest Dumpling:	Oops sorry wrong box
[15:21]	Siann Beck:	That way, it can be used in newbie areas, but turned off where not needed.
[15:21]	James Linden:	do you need to be able to turn off?
[15:21]	Jason Swain:	Just a thought, would this not add more clutter to the users experiance?
[15:21]	James Linden:	is it OK if there are only 5 icons and you can't change them?
[15:21]	Siann Beck:	Exactly, Jason.
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	that's my concern as well, Jason
[15:21]	James Linden:	restricting the "vocabulary" for new users is important
[15:22]	Squirrel Wood:	Mayhaps a button on the UI "Show Touchable Objects" which highlights or flashes those objects within view ?
[15:22]	Siann Beck:	THere you go, Squirrel.
[15:22]	James Linden:	yeah, I'm worried about too much on screen too
[15:22]	Siann Beck:	Have it on by default.
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	There is already (or used to be) a beacon to highlight touchable objects in red
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted:	and this isn't something that can be solved by design, I assume; such as texturing things like buttons, etc
[15:22]	Malbers Linden:	The experience for new residents is overwhelming -- trying to help direct their attention to whats important; what' s doable.
[15:22]	Jacek Antonelli:	But... I don't think it's good to have everything touchable red all the time, from a builder's perspective
[15:22]	McCabe Maxsted:	beacons are confusing even for experienced users
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood:	compile one single window with half a dozen buttons which is shown for new users that has such options available to them.
[15:23]	James Linden:	beacons are a debugging hack
[15:23]	BugTest Dumpling thinks it shouldn't be over complicated as they have alot to grasp on entry as it is : )
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood:	like show touchable, show buyable, show this, do that
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	But perhaps there could be an option to make touchable objects "pulse" a color, going on and off slowly?
[15:23]	James Linden:	yeah, I'm thinking about turning off a lot of UI in the first login
[15:23]	James Linden:	and progressively showing it
[15:23]	James Linden:	as you click through the tutorial
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood:	Yes!
[15:23]	James Linden:	(turn it all on if you close the tutorial)
[15:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	that's a good idea
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's a great idea james
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood:	That would be perfect.
[15:24]	James Linden:	my big question, though
[15:24]	James Linden:	is how much do you guys want to participate in these sorts of design talks
[15:24]	Squirrel Wood:	and only allow progress once the user has confirmed they understand the latest option they have been told about?
[15:24]	James Linden:	and how I can give you infoirmation
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Lots :D
[15:24]	Squirrel Wood:	Very lots!
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted:	very very lots!
[15:24]	Jason Swain:	I would be happy to help
[15:24]	Yuu Nakamichi:	:)
[15:24]	James Linden:	I cannot, for privacy reasons, give you user test videos
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	James, I found posting things to the public wiki to be helpful
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	SLDev mailing list, or the wiki...
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	people can add comments and brainstorm there
[15:25]	James Linden:	ben, maybe.... transcripts or logs?
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	Or combo. Wiki with announcement on the mailing list
[15:25]	BugTest Dumpling:	Wiki is a great idea
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	I keep transcript of office hours
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	but people really respond to graphics
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	or even if there were an island where we coudl try out proposed changes using a test client or hud
[15:25]	James Linden:	I mean, publish transcripts of user test videos
[15:25]	James Linden:	You guys need to see how painful this is for newbies
[15:25]	James Linden:	It makes my eyes bleed
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm that could be more problematic from a privacy standpoint
[15:25]	James Linden:	ben, summary logs?
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	we'd need to make sure our waivers cover that
[15:26]	James Linden:	erica's list of pain points?
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	but yeah, roll-up data should be ok
[15:26]	Jason Swain:	can you not remove, user idenifable content from the video files?
[15:26]	Malbers Linden:	yeah, perhaps rollup, summary points
[15:26]	James Linden:	oh, even I don't know their names :-)
[15:26]	James Linden:	"user 1" is all I get :-)
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:26]	McCabe Maxsted nods
[15:26]	James Linden shkes his fist at user 2!
[15:26]	Siann Beck:	What's the privacy concern, then?
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	Pixelize the face and distort the voice? :D
[15:26]	James Linden:	"Why can't you tell that mousewheel has moved out your camera?!?"
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:27]	James Linden:	They might be your mom
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	this is why we don't let PMs and devs into the test chamber
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	they always want to help the user :-)
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[15:27]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	(or strangle them? ;D)
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	ha yeah, or that
[15:27]	James Linden:	are any of you guys coders?
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	I am
[15:27]	James Linden <-- C++ monkey
[15:27]	Siann Beck:	I am
[15:27]	Jason Swain waves hoand
[15:27]	James Linden:	I'm not an artist, nor really a UI designer
[15:28]	Squirrel Wood:	Setting up some sort of test parcours would be of use where they are shown step by step how to control the camera?
[15:28]	James Linden:	camera control is a big issue
[15:28]	Ghost Menjou:	<--- PAWN,LSL and LAU coder
[15:28]	Squirrel Wood codes in Acorns and nuts.
[15:28]	James Linden:	total non-UI aside, how do people like Lua?
[15:28]	Siann Beck:	What's Lua?
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	lua?
[15:28]	Jacek Antonelli:	I have not used Lua much personally... but it seems to be "all the rage" in scriptable UIs
[15:29]	Jason Swain:	SL camera control is alot easier that Google SkechUp even
[15:29]	Ghost Menjou:	I only know it because i bother to make mods for GMOD and POSTAL
[15:29]	Roof Doors:	Ghost Menjou is at the door.
[15:29]	Squirrel Wood:	isn't that the one w0w uses?
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	yep, WoW uses Lua
[15:29]	Ghost Menjou:	I never had the time to learn C++
[15:30]	Ghost Menjou:	I know 80's fortran though
[15:30]	Squirrel Wood:	C++ and I are mortal enemies :p
[15:30]	Mastorian Kingsford:	lol
[15:30]	Jason Swain:	lol
[15:30]	Siann Beck:	COBOL rulez
[15:30]	James Linden:	so to get back on topic
[15:30]	Squirrel Wood:	But I think Lua would allow for tutorial stuff as well as a lot more flexibility
[15:30]	Mastorian Kingsford:	i do what i need to to make what i need work in game engine of my games
[15:30]	James Linden:	how would you like to contribute to new user UI design?
[15:31]	BugTest Dumpling thinks don't over complicate it and give them too much to grasp at Orientation.
[15:31]	Harleen Gretzky:	Ypu'd be suprised how many residents don't know about alt and control keys for camera control though, they only use teh camera control popup
[15:31]	Squirrel Wood:	I'd say one way we can contribute is to set up tutorial parcours in SL and script those?
[15:31]	James Linden:	parcour?
[15:32]	Squirrel Wood:	ye
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	Harleen, how do people find out about the camera controls window?
[15:32]	James Linden:	build/demonstration/demo = parcour?
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	do other residents tell them about it?
[15:32]	James Linden:	(I thought parcour was "Free running")
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	obstacle course?
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	haha @ james
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	that's parkour
[15:32]	Squirrel Wood:	not so much demo but you move through a series of steps that explain in pictures and text and mayhaps spoken language the different things.
[15:32]	Harleen Gretzky:	from other residents usually, I discovered it on orientation but some residents skip it
[15:32]	James Linden is not french
[15:32]	Squirrel Wood:	Like the videos Torley makes
[15:32]	Jason Swain:	Does orentation island show Torleys videos at all?
[15:33]	James Linden:	no
[15:33]	Ghost Menjou:	The OI lacks certain things
[15:33]	Jason Swain:	That would be a great help to a new user
[15:33]	James Linden:	we're talking internally about trying a non-OI new user experience
[15:33]	Ghost Menjou:	Hud*
[15:33]	Mastorian Kingsford:	alota those instruction video screens in sl dont work
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood:	obstacle course, yes.
[15:33]	James Linden:	take a few users
[15:33]	James Linden:	give them a web-based tutorial HUD
[15:33]	James Linden:	dump them at an info hud
[15:33]	James Linden:	hub
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	a big problem with videos on OI is that they don't run by default
[15:33]	James Linden:	see what happens
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood:	Confront them with a Problem and offer an explanation about the different ways to solve it
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Eep!
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	May as well drop a rat in a snake pit
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:34]	BugTest Dumpling:	The thing is at OI, most common things that they struggle with is stuff like Getting the torch, they arnt ready for complicated stuff at that point, only the basics
[15:34]	Jason Swain:	Welcome BackMalbers
[15:34]	Malbers Linden:	wheeeew. We lost the Internet here for a minute.
[15:34]	Squirrel Wood:	OhNoes!
[15:34]	Squirrel Wood:	I hope you did find it again?
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	My prediction would be the users get griefed/orbitted and quit within 10 minutes, tops. ;)
[15:34]	James Linden:	yeah, we'll see
[15:35]	James Linden:	I'm nervous too
[15:35]	Mastorian Kingsford:	interfacing a menu that runs the main videos on sl Tuts could be user friendly with a windo that runs in their hud
[15:35]	Squirrel Wood:	HUD!
[15:35]	Siann Beck:	Well, something we talked about at documentation OH a couple weeks ago, which applies here also, is that new users are eager to get started, and gloss over OI, and also, since they're new, they don't know what they don't know, so it's hard to relate the OI material to anything.
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	I guess if you're doing a controlled study, you can give them hugs and comfort afterwards. "It was just an experiment... it's okay now. You'll be fine."
[15:35]	Squirrel Wood:	You could equip them with a help hud by default that works like a slideshow and explains things?
[15:36]	Siann Beck:	There needs to be a way they can return to whatever tutorial and/or orientation material they need later, when they figure out they need it.
[15:36]	Squirrel Wood:	language selection, voice/text/pictures
[15:36]	Ghost Menjou:	Or you could make them coffeeoys
[15:36]	BugTest Dumpling:	More Mentors Woooooh
[15:36]	James Linden:	so, tutorial HUD is web based
[15:36]	James Linden:	Help menu item to get it back
[15:36]	Squirrel Wood:	Not neccessarily
[15:36]	James Linden:	not currently linked to in-world content
[15:36]	Squirrel Wood:	notecard based and expandable
[15:36]	James Linden:	but clicks on links can make viewer "chat" text to scripts
[15:37]	James Linden:	icon prototype (photoshop)
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	That sounds like a good possibility, James
[15:37]	James Linden:	http://www.flickr.com/photos/brentzooka/2314844747/
[15:37]	Squirrel Wood:	Something like that magHUD I just gave you James
[15:37]	Ghost Menjou:	also this reminds me I have to talk to a Vteam member about mentors later
[15:37]	Ghost Menjou:	also brb relog
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	Simple, yet flexible
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	and notecard driven
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	though all that one does is display textures
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted wonders what newbies will think when they see sit icons hovering over teleports
[15:38]	James Linden:	let me emphasize prototype here :-)
[15:39]	James Linden:	I know we need to consider vehicles, teleporters, ...
[15:39]	Jason Swain:	@McCabe, lol
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe I know, it's a tough thing
[15:39]	James Linden:	but what else do we need to think about?
[15:39]	Squirrel Wood gave you magHUD.
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	The icon idea looks good. As a builder there might be a few (very few) cases where I would not want them to be able to see what's clickable/sittable
[15:39]	James Linden:	really small objects (chess pieces)
[15:39]	James Linden:	really big objects (floors, big doors)
[15:39]	James Linden:	things too close to camera near-clip
[15:40]	Jason Swain:	how about ground, thats sitable
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	How are you thinking of handling objects which can be touched, paid, *and* sat on?
[15:40]	James Linden:	good point
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood:	stack icons ?
[15:40]	James Linden:	jacek - can you give me an example?
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	massage chairs? :-)
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	A vehicle, for instance, that you sit on to ride it, click to configure options
[15:40]	James Linden:	jacek - got it
[15:40]	Malbers Linden:	Plus, the prototype/screenshot does not show the interaction aspects of the design -- just one static shot.
[15:40]	James Linden:	that's really helpful
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	furniture for sale that you buy, but has a sit target, and a touch menu
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli nods to McCabe
[15:41]	BugTest Dumpling:	Argh so sick of crashes today >>.<<
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hmm... in Neverwinter Nights, they have a keyboard command (by defualt on Tab) that will highlight anything in the scene you can click or pick up
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	you know that's how I used to use the Alt button
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	when it was bugged to highlight stuff that could be touched
[15:42]	BugTest Dumpling:	Does an icon not already appear when you hover your mouse over an object you can sit on or buy or touch etc.?
[15:42]	Yuu Nakamichi:	it's slow, bt
[15:42]	Siann Beck:	Yes, but the problem is that it can take too long to appear, BT.
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	BugTest: yes, the cursor changes, but the feeling is that it changes too slowly, and makes them have to test every object individually
[15:42]	James Linden:	yeah
[15:42]	Yuu Nakamichi:	jinx
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:42]	James Linden:	we have to wait for an OpenGL "pick", which involves a read-back from video card
[15:42]	James Linden:	and is too slow to do every frame
[15:43]	James Linden:	~30% frame rate hit
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	ah
[15:43]	Siann Beck:	Of course, when I'm in a new UI, my policy it to click everything that look sinteresting.
[15:43]	Jason Swain:	owch!
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[15:43]	Harleen Gretzky:	Could the icons be a viewer option that the user can tehn choose to turn off ad on?
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh gosh, I hope they can be turned off ^_^
[15:43]	James Linden:	for screen shots, movies, etc.
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	it would have to be or it'd drive experienced users mad
[15:43]	James Linden:	Yeah, we have to provide a way to turn them off
[15:43]	James Linden:	and for people who don't want them
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	exactly
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	have any of you used There?
[15:44]	James Linden:	but whatever we come up with, it needs to be on for new users
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	they have a similar system if I recall, but it's been ages since I was on it
[15:44]	James Linden:	They do
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	Curse those experienced users who don't want information overload on their screens ;)
[15:44]	James Linden:	circles with little arrows to imply a menu
[15:44]	Yuu Nakamichi:	what about the tab key for highlighting?
[15:44]	James Linden:	it is the only way to interact with objects in There
[15:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	James: thinking more on it, I'm not sure I can think of any legitimate reason that a builder would want to/should be able to hide the fact that something is clickable/sittable/etc.
[15:44]	Yuu Nakamichi:	or space bar etc?
[15:44]	James Linden:	I think it's an elegant design
[15:44]	Jason Swain:	@Squirrel, but the bigginners become experienced users
[15:45]	Ghost Menjou:	Back
[15:45]	Squirrel Wood:	James, have a look at that magHUD thing and see if this might be of use :)
[15:45]	James Linden:	We need a smooth transition patch from new to experienced
[15:45]	James Linden:	path
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	yes, definitely; it's very rough right now
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	Even as an experienced user, I think it would be handy to (temporarily) turn on the icons by holding down a key
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	Just to get an idea of what's going on in a new place
[15:46]	James Linden:	ben, how are we on time?
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's also a helpful idea for when a place is still loading and you want to know what's what. Press the key down, get the lay of the land
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	yep
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	I have to run off in 15 minutes, but I only need a couple minutes at the end
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	you all are welcome to stay and continue brainstorming :-)
[15:47]	James Linden:	I have to go in 15 minutes as well
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	especially buying, a seller woudl want an icon; that also raises the question where it should go, in case it obscructs the product being sold
[15:47]	James Linden:	yes, positioning is tricky
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah, right
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood:	dang
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Even floating text can be.... troublesome, currently
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood:	it always complains about that :(
[15:47]	James Linden:	our floating text sucks, frankly
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli grins
[15:48]	Yuu Nakamichi:	;p
[15:48]	Malbers Linden:	positioning is especially tricky for really big or really smal things (as James mentioned)
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	I tried to put it gently ;)
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, and just putting it over the root prim wouldn't work well
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:48]	James Linden:	well, our floating text tries really hard to be readable
[15:48]	James Linden:	sometimes too hard
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	indeed
[15:48]	Squirrel Wood:	the notecard is not full perms methinks which is why the script refuses to read it :/
[15:49]	James Linden:	I could use some sample objects with lots of little scripted child objects
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	a script can read a ntoecard regardless of permissions
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	try it
[15:49]	James Linden:	so, what I'm hearing overall is....
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	then your script's wrong
[15:50]	James Linden:	You guys are interested in being involved in new user UI design, even if it doesn't affect you as experienced users
[15:50]	Jason Swain:	McCabe, I have tried it too
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	yup
[15:50]	Squirrel Wood:	Yes
[15:50]	BugTest Dumpling:	Sure
[15:50]	James Linden:	some sort of data from internal tests would be helpful
[15:50]	Jason Swain:	Yes
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	yes
[15:51]	James Linden:	wiki or SLDEV would be good places to start
[15:51]	Yuu Nakamichi:	yup
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	yep
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Although inworld discussions are also a lot of fun ^_^
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	and talking to mentors
[15:51]	James Linden:	I miss voice :-)
[15:51]	James Linden:	mccabe - sorry, mentors?
[15:51]	Squirrel Wood:	A no mod / no copy / transfer ok notecard created by someone else in your objects inventory cannot be read by any script in the object. All you get is Couldn't find notecard 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000
[15:52]	BugTest Dumpling:	Mentors are key in improving the OI
[15:52]	Malbers Linden:	Mentors have a lot of experience with new residents (and their problems)
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm guessing he means, talk with mentors to gather info about what new users have trouble with
[15:52]	James Linden:	ah, those mentors
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	yep
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	yup
[15:52]	James Linden:	ok
[15:52]	Malbers Linden:	James, I've been talking to hte VTeam about ineracting with Mentors more
[15:52]	James Linden:	So I need to go figure out what I can do internally
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood:	that one should work
[15:53]	James Linden:	like what I can publish or not
[15:53]	BugTest Dumpling:	Ooh Q&A At SL V Malbers?
[15:53]	Malbers Linden:	BT, aaaa, too many acronyms I don't know.
[15:53]	BugTest Dumpling:	BT?
[15:53]	BugTest Dumpling:	Huh? 0.o
[15:53]	James Linden:	OK. Other questions / comments ?
[15:54]	A group member named Gabriel LeShelle gave you Carnal - Rose Red Lace Bra Set.
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood:	Yes. What's for lunch?
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood:	or dinner
[15:54]	Squirrel Wood:	whichever applies
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Nope. I think the icon idea is very promising.... improving new user experience definitely important... it's all good. :)
[15:54]	James Linden:	OK
[15:54]	Mastorian Kingsford:	you should had more font size contol to the notcards and scripting windows even on my 19 inch mont its hard on the eyes reading sl code
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	and I really like the idea of the staged UI
[15:54]	James Linden:	I will come back in 1-2 weeks with more information
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	yes, staged UI, revealing part at a time is good
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood:	wb Ben
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	cool :)
[15:55]	Yuu Nakamichi:	yes
[15:55]	Siann Beck:	Yes! Diito Mastorian
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	wb ben
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks. I got disconnected but didn't realize :-)
[15:55]	James Linden:	OK. I need to get going. See you all next time.
[15:55]	Yuu Nakamichi:	thanks james
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood:	Thanks for being here today :)
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	Bye James! :)
[15:55]	Jason Swain:	See you James, Thanks
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for coming James
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	did someone capture the last few minutes of chat?
[15:55]	James Linden:	malbers, do you have it?
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	I got to the part where Jame said, "so to summarize"
[15:55]	James Linden:	if not, I do
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	or something
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-702
[15:56]	Malbers Linden:	yep, I have it.
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	be sure to vote ben ;)
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	ah yes
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hahaha, McCabe
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	this is a big pet peeve of mine
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, same here
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	*votes as hard as she can*
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:56]	Yuu Nakamichi:	;p
[15:57]	Squirrel Wood:	updated hud ben... the other gives nasty Couldn't find notecard 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000
[15:57]	Squirrel Wood:	errors
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, I already have, hehe.
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	maybe it doesn't work for notecards, but it does for rezed objects
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	err work for huds
[15:57]	BugTest Dumpling had that trouble alllllllllll dy crashing every few minutes lol
[15:57]	Squirrel Wood has a quite useless product due to that restriction
[15:57]	Squirrel Wood gave you magHUD.
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	one quick thing before we wrap up
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	Malbers had a great suggestion to create a SL group for folks who come to this office hour
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	people who are interested in user experience issues
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood:	<= too many groups unless we get more than 25 ^^
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	we could use the group to send meeting reminders
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	via group notices
[15:58]	Jason Swain:	I have too many groups all ready
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	that sounds good
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	chat offline, etc
[15:58]	Siann Beck:	Well, that's a good issue for UX, Squrrel!
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	haha yes
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	sounds good
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for the transcript Siann
[15:59]	Siann Beck gave you Transcript.
[15:59]	Siann Beck:	yw
[15:59]	BugTest Dumpling:	How about a Blog? if you can't jpin another group
[15:59]	Yuu Nakamichi:	same here 25 group limit is stopping me
[15:59]	BugTest Dumpling:	join* such bad typing today : P
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	A blog... mailing list (or even IM list via a scripted object)
[16:00]	Squirrel Wood:	Let's just abuse AW Groupies?
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	those are all good suggestions, I'll see what we have in terms of mailing lists
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	User Experience Mailing List :D
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	ok folks I have to run
[16:00]	Mastorian Kingsford:	lol omg 25 groups if its like the ones i was in i be bored outa my mind i can see it 25 groups all taking sex the 8 hrs im gaming arg ims every sec arggggggg :-)
[16:00]	Squirrel Wood:	That is, if the group chat decides to work eventually ^^
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	okay ben; take care
[16:00]	BugTest Dumpling:	Bye bye
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	take care Ben!
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for your input today!
[16:00]	Squirrel Wood:	have fun Benjamin!
[16:00]	Jason Swain:	Thanks Ben
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	see you next week
[16:00]	Malbers Linden:	bye all.
[16:00]	Yuu Nakamichi:	k :)
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	and Malbers :)
[16:00]	Siann Beck:	Thanks for your work, Ben
[16:01]	Jason Swain:	See you Malbers