Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 17th, 2012 Meeting

15:03	Geenz Spad	welcome everyone to today's meeting, we're going to have condense things a bit today since we have a number of big agenda items today
		as always, you can find the agenda here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
		we'll get started with JIRA discussion
15:04		anyone have any content related JIRAs to pass around today?
		yes? no? maybe? :P
15:05	Elie Spot	did you have any geenz?
	Geenz Spad	I wouldn't mind discussing that cloth one personally
15:06		and if no one has anything else they'd like to bring up from the JIRA, then we can just discuss that until it's time for more morph target discussion
	Elie Spot	sounds good to me!
	Typhaon Nishi	cool
15:07	Geenz Spad	we can also just skip to morph targets if everyone wants, it's up to you guys!
	Nal	What is the cloth JIRA?
15:08	Maxwell Graf	isnt that for cloth movement?
	Geenz Spad	so anyways, regarding cloth; I've put a bit of thought into that, haven't had any official discussions *yet* with anyone at LL, but it'd generally be doable with a few workflow tweaks
		and yes Maxwell
		I'll find the JIRA
	Elie Spot	thanks!
	sachi Vixen	What would be doable?
	Geenz Spad	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-27189
15:09		doable in this context would refer to making cloth move realistically
		think, things like flowing dresses, capes, maybe even hair to some extent
	sachi Vixen	Oh you mean like cloth simulation?
	Eboni	We are talking about Havok Cloth?
	Nal	Would that be a handoff to Havok? Or purely viewer side?
	Geenz Spad	not necessarily Havok Cloth
	Typhaon Nishi	interesting
	Maxwell Graf	instead of like flexi only.
15:10	Elie Spot	i dont like flexi :( (dont shoot!)
		cloth sim would be amazing
	Geenz Spad	would *probably* be viewer-side only, I hate to think of the server over-head for something like that
	Typhaon Nishi	I wonder how something like that would work in tandem with something like the deformer
	sachi Vixen	I'l with you Elie, I think flexi has had its day
	Elie Spot	yeah, now that we have rigging, people won't tolerate movement through the body anymore
	Nal	How is the viewer going to do it?
	sachi Vixen	How would that be possible/work?
	Geenz Spad	that's where things get interesting
15:11	Crash Uladstron	yes,how would it work?
	Elie Spot	would materials be part of it?
	Geenz Spad	typically, how it works is, you define a region that's supposed to be simulated as cloth in your 3D application
	Geenz Spad	workflow possibilities could involve "painting" this region effectively
15:12	Nal	Does Collada allow for that info?
	Geenz Spad	it does
	Nal	neat
15:13	Geenz Spad	now, viewer-side, that's where things would get even more interesting; we'd need some kind of way of checking if the clothing is about to go through the avatar [15:13] Braydon RandtBraydon Randt nods all interested like
		I think this is something that'd require a fair bit of discussion on everyone's part, so how about we talk about it at length at next week's meeting?
15:14	Elie Spot	do we have time to get into it now?
	Nal	All SL collision is Havok...
	Elie Spot	since there aer no other jiras?
	Crash Uladstron	Also dif fabrics move in dif ways
	Elie Spot	thats why i was wondering about materials
	Anouk Spot	true
	sachi Vixen	Perhaps put it ont he agenda for next time?
	Geenz Spad	I'll answer the materials question, then we'll move on to morph targets, alright?
	Braydon Randt	yup
	Anouk Spot	i would hate for say, jeans to move like a flowy skirt or something
15:15	Typhaon Nishi	well im sure that there would be different strength of painting if certain fabrics move in different ways
	dahlia1337 resident	oops sorry :)
	Elie Spot	sounds good geenz!
	Geenz Spad	it's possible that some materials-like functionality could be introduced to it if/when we have a working material system in place, but that's something we should discuss once that's on the horizon
	Elie Spot	awesome
15:16		getting excited
	Geenz Spad	I figure it'd be pretty cool to have a normal map that fades in the more the cloth flaps about :P
	Typhaon Nishi	maybe there would be options similar to those found in flexi atm, and there could be presets such as denim etc.
	Geenz Spad	could do something like that, but anyways, got a few important things to discuss with regards to morph targets today
	Braydon Randt	hat would be an interesting prospect
15:17	Geenz Spad	Nalates, if you don't mind, I'll be covering your agenda items along with this
	Nal	np
15:18	Geenz Spad	so, I've been talking to a couple people at the lab, and right now a few things need to be made clear to LL with regards to the morph target discussion
		first off, where Qarl's deformer stands in all of this
15:19		I've established that Qarl's deformer needs to come first, as it's the closest thing that to being finished as it stands
	Elie Spot	nice
15:20	Geenz Spad	morph targets would take a while to implement, and work out all of the little technical hurdles here and there; and mesh has been out on the grid for about a year now with no official solution for fixing how clothing fits people
	Al Supercharge	sorry to be late is there an agenda webpage ?
	Crash Uladstron	it could be the default option for clothing deformation and morph targets could be an option for people who prefer to do it that way,imo
	Geenz Spad	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
	Typhaon Nishi	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
	Elie Spot	^ agree w/ crash
	Geenz Spad	now, the next point is, LL needs *in writing* what benefits morph targets would bring, and why we need these benefits
15:21		for this, I have a document to share with all of you!
	Al Supercharge	what's a MORPH TARGET ?
	Elie Spot	the doc will help you Al
	dahlia1337 resident	could the deformer interfere with future morph targets, or other morphs such as lip sync?
	Geenz Spad	that's to be defined dahlia
		https://docs.google.com/a/exodusviewer.com/document/d/1MsGy9UsHRNqxrURNY7VwhfYQpDdBG3nRG6b_wDUSIfg/edit#
	dahlia1337 resident	if it's not defined, could the deformer present an opsticle?
15:22	Typhaon Nishi	it would probably be separate
	dahlia1337 resident	*obsticle
	sachi Vixen	I would have thought that with a deformer and morph targets in place it would be an either or decision at upload?
	Geenz Spad	this gets into the technical aspects of morph targets, and technically they shouldn't really interfere with one another too much
	Typhaon Nishi	like you have a custom option for custom deformations and if you dont want/ can't use morph tagrets you would use the default qarls deformer
15:23	Geenz Spad	personally, I think it should be an upload option, yes
	dahlia1337 resident	does the deformor not affect head and finger vertices?
	Crash Uladstron	yes,sort ot,to make a parallel ,de generated lod's or uploding your own
	Geenz Spad	dhalia, it effects everything
	Elie Spot	agreed (upload option)
	Typhaon Nishi	yeah like a tick box
	Geenz Spad	I'd like for people to save technical discussion for when we get that; today's meeting, I need people to focus on the document I've posted
15:24		so, LL needs clear reasons why we need morph targets, in this document you'll find I've listed some advantages, and why we need these advantages
	Al Supercharge	why is it that I think LL will find a bunch of higher priorities than Morph Targets ( esp when they add to lag)
	Geenz Spad	what I'd like for the next 10 minutes or so, is for us to discuss them, and come to some general consensus that this represents the advantages of morph targets, and the overall need for them
15:25		so, let's get started
15:26		let's begin with the first section, "Advantages to morph targets for clothing and avatar designers"
		does anyone have any questions or comments with regards to this section? or does everyone feel that this is good?
15:27	Elie Spot	looks good to me!
	Typhaon Nishi	yeah its pretty good
		concise
	dahlia1337 resident	can you repost uri for document please?
	Geenz Spad	https://docs.google.com/a/exodusviewer.com/document/d/1MsGy9UsHRNqxrURNY7VwhfYQpDdBG3nRG6b_wDUSIfg/edit#
	dahlia1337 resident	ty :)
	Crash Uladstron	yes,if it will be an alternative option on upload how does point 3 fall into this
15:28		or does in conjunction mean in paralel? Sorry if I'm not understanding right
	Geenz Spad	the thing about morph targets, is they could be an optimization in the future for Qarl's deformer
		more or less that
15:29	Crash Uladstron	right, okay,thank you
	Geenz Spad	they could be used in parallel with the deformer, they could be used in parallel to RedPoly's solution, we could have a tick box that only allows one or other other, there's plenty of possibilities here
	Braydon Randt	too many options one might say
	Elie Spot	Should we put something in there about how people might want certain parts of an object to deform, but not others? LIke the strap of a purse but not necessarily the bag itself? I feel like this is a really appealing aspect to me personally
	Crash Uladstron	understood
	sachi Vixen	The more options we have the better the advantage for SL when moving forward
15:30	Asha	Very good point Elie
	Geenz Spad	sure, we can further define how the functionality will work, but for the sake of getting through today's agenda, how about we discuss that after our initial time limit?
	Elie Spot	maybe just take a note
	Geenz Spad	sure
	Elie Spot	to add that in
	Typhaon Nishi	are you forwarding this document to LL for them to decide whether to implement the morph target function
	Geenz Spad	I'll put that in then
15:31		I'm forwarding this document to a few people at LL for feedback
	Typhaon Nishi	ok cool
	Geenz Spad	they just need to know the specifics as to why we need this
	Elie Spot	so do you think if anyone has some major good reasons to point out, that were maybe left out, we should make note of them and add?
15:32	Geenz Spad	so, section #2, "Advantages to general users"
		yes, please
	Elie Spot	great
	Drongle McMahon	I think morph targets are one approach that can deal with the widely held view that mesh creation is elitist and doesn'y help non-modellers. Moph targets could provide mesh components that are highly adjustable and thus provide a new range of versatile components usable by non-expert people.
	Geenz Spad	that's a very good point Drongle!
	Drongle McMahon	That is not to say they are the most efficient way to do that but...
15:33	Geenz Spad	so anyways, any comments on section 2?
	Elie Spot	general users meaning creators & shoppers alike?
		or just creators
		people who will be actually doing the morph targets
	Geenz Spad	think of it from an "end user" standpoint
15:34	Braydon Randt	general public want one thing " will it fit" ... how it fits they dont give a toss
	Geenz Spad	how it'd effect the people who buy your content
	Elie Spot	ok, yeah fit
	Anouk Spot	def fit
	Typhaon Nishi	could put residents alongside users
	Elie Spot	fit and quality/realism
	Braydon Randt	fit first .... realism, eventually
15:35	Elie Spot	because the average user won't really care whether the garment they're wearing utilizes the deformer or the morph targets, they'll just notice a quality/fit difference
	Crash Uladstron	exactly
	Braydon Randt	thats all they care about
	Elie Spot	especially people who are left out, like fantasy avatars, extreme shape avatars, etc
	Braydon Randt	we as creators ... want to give them that .. with the MINIMUM work
	Typhaon Nishi	greater fit accuracy
	Geenz Spad	I've added a third item to that section
	Elie Spot	looks good geenz
	Typhaon Nishi	yeah that sound sgood
15:36	Maxwell Graf	naw man, get yew summa them morphin jeans, not just them deformer ones!
	Geenz Spad	:P
	Typhaon Nishi	might morphin power jeans
	Elie Spot	the day a customer IMs and uses the words "morph target" i'll give you 5 billion lindens max xD
	Geenz Spad	so is that all for section 2?
	Anouk Spot	i think so
	Elie Spot	looks good to me
		although
15:37		does number 1 fit in
		being as we're talking baout end users
	sachi Vixen	I saw that Elie!
	Crash Uladstron	Well I shpped at Mon tissu so start paying Max
	Geenz Spad	it's performance related
	Elie Spot	ah ok
		yea
		makes sense
	Geenz Spad	so I figure that something that runs a bit faster would always be a huge plus to the end user
		so anyways, section 3 is a bit of an iffy one
15:38		this one is largely a "what if" and "nice to have" kind of section
	Elie Spot	right
	Geenz Spad	but at the same time it sets the tone for what people's overall eventual expectations should be "in the future"
	Elie Spot	number 2 would rely on us being able to do our own skeletons wouldnt it?
15:39	Asha	If it is a "nice to have", could you mention making the morphs accessible through scripting?
	Geenz Spad	#2 depends; you can actually do some pretty complex things with morph targets
		of course Asha
	Asha	Awesome :)
15:40	Geenz Spad	is that good Asha?
	dahlia1337 resident	via scripts? add in syncronization and timing problems, aka LAG
	Geenz Spad	that's one of those technical hurdles people have to work on how to mitigate, dahlia
15:41	Drongle McMahon	I think morphs should be accessible through sliders in the UI, not just scripts.
	dahlia1337 resident	often people in other continents have > 1 second ping times, I'd say thats a pretty big techincal hurdle
	Geenz Spad	anything we want that woudl be nice to have one could argue would cause "lag", you could even say that materials would cause "lag", or that mesh causes"lag" due to the additional data they send
15:42		right then, I added your point Drongle
	sachi Vixen	Would sliders in the UI affect the security of content at all?
	Asha	What sort of sliders in the viewer UI?
	Geenz Spad	that's entirely dependent on how morph targets are actually implemented
15:43	Drongle McMahon	Could make UI accessibility selectable byb the originator of the morphable mesh.
	Geenz Spad	there's different ways to do morph targets, each of them have their own unique benefits and disadvantages
		it's possible we could extend the floater for shape editing
15:44		anything else?
		or shall we move on to the next section?
	Drongle McMahon	In an implementation of morphable components for non-expert creators, the resource cost would obviously be high for the morphable mesh. So there could be an option that would "crystallise" the current morphed mesh and turn it intop a normally costed mesh.
	Geenz Spad	potentially
15:45	Drongle McMahon	Sorry b... I'm getting ahead of you. I will shut up now.
	Geenz Spad	how about we get into something like that during our next meeting? [15:45] Braydon RandtBraydon Randt suspects " next meeting" will be 4 hours long
		anyways, if there's nothing further on this section, we'll move on to the next one
	Al Supercharge	do all major video games use morph targets --? is that where this comes from?
	Geenz Spad	at this rate, we may as well extend the meeting to two hours :p
15:46	Elie Spot	almost done w/ the doc! :D
	Nal	No.... 2 hrs is too long
	Geenz Spad	most major videos games do, they're typically used to solve problems that would otherwise be very difficult with regular bone-based animation
15:47		the viewer technically already uses morph targets for shapes; everyone around you us using some variant of a morph target to define the overall shape of their avatar
	Al Supercharge	and how does this work with face anim?
	Geenz Spad	it basically moves the face vertices, but regardless, we need to move on now
		Foreseeable Disadvantages
15:48		this one I added the most obvious disadvantages, and I think this is one that'd be better suited for a separate discussion
		so shall we move on to the final section? or do people feel that there's other disadvantages that should be listed?
15:49	Elie Spot	sounds good to me
	Al Supercharge	sounds complicated -- dont we just need as 1st priority the 8 language speech emotes for lips+tongue+teeth? [15:49] Braydon RandtBraydon Randt considers this whole meeting would have been better as a forum sticky ... or a poll
	Geenz Spad	we'll discuss that another time Al
15:50		I actually did a post on the opensource-dev mailing list, but not many have responded
	Elie Spot	i think its good to throw this around in a meeting
		where we can add points together
		and approve points together
		as a group
		last section?
	Geenz Spad	last, but most definitely not least: “Needs” as such for morph targets
15:51		does anyone have anything to add here?
	Elie Spot	i dont see a hard strong point about quality and fit accuracy
	dahlia1337 resident	you have bandwidth and processing cost, which are pretty high on LL's list. Would be nice to add examples how the costs can be mitigated
15:52	Typhaon Nishi	so this section is why we all see morph targeting as a need?
	Elie Spot	yes
	Geenz Spad	added Elie
	Typhaon Nishi	I think it entails the advantages pretty nicely
	Drongle McMahon	I guess my "crystallisation" would be a mitigation.
	Elie Spot	in my mind, why this is needed and not just a deformer.. although I'm unsure what improvements are being made to the deformer currently
15:53		last I checked there were quality and accuracy issues
	sachi Vixen	I think any emphasis on small costs to LL to implement might go down well?
	Geenz Spad	if anyone has anything else to bring up, now is the time; some people's topics may have to spill over to the next meeting
	sachi Vixen	small costs as in time effort & finance
	Drongle McMahon	Need to keep up with competition? Does cloud party have morph targets?
	dahlia1337 resident	I thought the "cost" was processing cost in the viewer
15:54	Elie Spot	i dont think cloud party lets you modify your avatar shape yet
	Geenz Spad	the good news on morph targets, is a lot of the server side work would probably be getting it to accept mesh format additions
		and the processing cost shouldn't be any more than what we already have with the mesh deformer
		but again, let's stay on topic
	Al Supercharge	is that really going to happen " clothing makers define how it fits" ? isn't it going to be automatic ?
	Typhaon Nishi	maybe that it gives creators an advanced option to use rather than just the default deformer which adds further customisation/control over creations
15:55	Elie Spot	Al, the deformer will be the automatic option
		and will come first, before morph targets
	Geenz Spad	what Elie said
	Elie Spot	what we're doing is just proposing this advancanced option to LL
	dahlia1337 resident	yes the deformer adds cost which may be one reason LL may not like it
	Elie Spot	because of all the benefits outlined in the doc
	Geenz Spad	so, I guess I'll emphasize more points here and there then
15:56	Braydon Randt	if it saves bandwidth .. thats a cost saver for LL , if it reduces LAG ... same again
	Geenz Spad	so we don't have too much overflow at the next meeting, what I'd like everyone to do is talk to me directly about the document over the week
	Braydon Randt	if it generates cost in lag , bandwidth and money .. you are gonna have a hard sell
	Elie Spot	i think the benefits would outweigh the cost here
15:57	Geenz Spad	I'll put together a group for the UG, where we can have discussions (provided group chat doesn't choke)
	Elie Spot	thats my hope!
		thanks geenz!
	Nal	Morphs avoid the problem of having to have the alternate weight paint needed for cBones.
	Typhaon Nishi	yeah was goinhg to say that, thats a good idea to have a group
	Geenz Spad	so, let's move on with what time we have here to the next agenda item
	Typhaon Nishi	Mesh Content Creation Improvement Group or something
	Elie Spot	3 minutes teehee
	dahlia1337 resident	adding processing cost to rendering avatars reduces the number of avatars that can be rendered while maintaining FPS
	Geenz Spad	the meeting ends at 4:15, so that gives us 15 minutes
15:58	Elie Spot	3 minutes + 15 teehee
	Geenz Spad	Has there been any news on whether LL is leaning towards Qarl's deformer or Redpoly's cbone solution? Ashasekayi Ra 14:56, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
		to my knowledge, Qarl's
	sachi Vixen	Would this expose mesh morphs the same way that sculpty maps are exposed via UUID?
	Elie Spot	no combination possible?
	sachi Vixen	Because that could be a serious security issue if it would
	Geenz Spad	using unused bones will work with Qarl's deformer as is
15:59	Elie Spot	what about adding the bones where they are missing? i thought this was the reason they were considering redpoly's solution in the first place
	Geenz Spad	but as an "official" solution, LL is leaning more towards Qarl's from what I've been able to gather thus far; but don't take that as an official endorsement on their part
		I can't really comment on that Elie, sorry
	Elie Spot	ok
		we should probably find that out
		somehow
16:00	dahlia1337 resident	Qarl's deformer is more or less an automatic morph target maker anyway
	Al Supercharge	way higher in priority is rigged objects -- is this a step away from Morph Targeting ?
	Geenz Spad	Maxwell also had an idea he wanted brought up
		Would like to have short review/discussion of New Features concept (will provide display that can be clicked to give out image to attendees) Maxwell Graf
	sachi Vixen	Is there a way to a way to lock down the UUID to ONLY be used on the mesh it's designed for, so it can't be applied like a sculpt map to any other prim
	Maxwell Graf	This was in response to a call for new feature ideas
16:01		if you cant read it, click to get a copy of the image
	Geenz Spad	how about we talk about the technical aspects next time, or in a group chat sachi?
	Typhaon Nishi	I like it
	Geenz Spad	I apologize for trying to push things along here, but we we're already going to go over our time allotment
	Typhaon Nishi	saves time when creating basic gradients etc.
	Maxwell Graf	this would basically allow thumbnail sets to be used for textures and colors, based on folders in a new inventory folder type, or by selecting just a folder of textures.
16:02		very helpful if you are doing a build where you need things over and over, similar to an organizer, but built into the UI tools.
	sachi Vixen	Can you put that on the agenda for next time because i think its an important issue for creators, I'm pretty sure everyone is sick of all the ripping that goes on
	Maxwell Graf	the gradient idea may take a bit more doing
16:03	sachi Vixen	We don't want to invite them in
	Geenz Spad	yes sachi
	sachi Vixen	Thank you :)
	Geenz Spad	I do understand your concern, and I feel it's an important one as well
		and regarding the gradient idea, only problem I can foresee is that may have to be moved into its own floater
		and with an upload button stuck somewhere on it
16:04		that's mainly due to how SL's asset system works though
		though this does actually raise an interesting topic as well, how can we improve the build floater?
	Maxwell Graf	the layout of this as I have it here is very much just concept. The stuff below it could easily be re-organized to get more room also, like if we need material maps also later.
	Geenz Spad	as it stands, the build floater's getting fairly cramped I think
16:05	Elie Spot	agreed
	Nal	Translate it to German and look at it...
16:06	Maxwell Graf	any suggestions or ideas re. these concepts?
	Elie Spot	what would gradients be used for?
	Maxwell Graf	well, lets say you wanted to add a shaded border on a square wall
	Typhaon Nishi	I think if it were to be implemented there could be a tab which extends the UI space
		so that it doesnt cramp it up
	Nal	The texture thumbnails are really small.
	Maxwell Graf	gradients would be applied over texture just like color.
	Typhaon Nishi	sort of like an advanced options tab
	dahlia1337 resident	I dont understand the gradient. are you mixing textures or just colors?
16:07	Maxwell Graf	colors
	Elie Spot	so layering
		pretty much
	Maxwell Graf	it would be applied just like color is
		over a texture
		or rather, as a tint.
	Geenz Spad	I do like the the idea behind the thumbnails, even if they're a bit cramped
	Typhaon Nishi	then you could have these options in a separate part of the window, like have a "+" or "advanced" pull out tab
	Eboni	wouldn't people just bake/render textures? And if people aren't advanced enough to bake/render, or make their own textures in PS, they are going to be purchasing textures. What do you think the actual usage for a feature like this would be?
	Nal	I can see several uses for gradients. Especially if we can mix a color and transparency.
16:08	Elie Spot	i think having build tools for people without advancaed programs is good though
	Maxwell Graf	the idea is that you wouldnt need to have multiple textures.
		you could apply a new gradient and save the effort and uploads.
	Geenz Spad	maybe it could be made into something like a texture compositor?
	Elie Spot	so if you wanted a very thin shadow, you could control that w/ the gradient settings, then apply it to your wall?
	Maxwell Graf	myes
16:09	Elie Spot	i think yes for this concept, but i agree w/ geenz it should have a sep floater
	Geenz Spad	though then, we get into replicating the functionality of photoshop
	Braydon Randt	could work hand in hand with a materials system ...... as thats ultimately the same
	dahlia1337 resident	thumbnails++. gradient idea is cool but may have some compatability issues
	Typhaon Nishi	could give newer residents who dont have the knowledge/accessibilty to graphics programs these options the ability to do these with SL. Could end up improving the look of their textures/ builds etc.
	Drongle McMahon	Overlaying a tiled texture with an untiled low-res shadow map could be very efficient compared with baked textures.
	Maxwell Graf	the small triangle mix sliders would control how the mix is, and when one is highlighted, you can then make that color transparent also
	Geenz Spad	and generally speaking, if people want a texture editor, they'll just use photoshop or something along those lines
	Elie Spot	yeah, being able to build a decent bit within SL without having to upload anything is good
	Typhaon Nishi	mmm
16:10		woulkd save time
	Eboni	it seems like a poor allocation of resources. So the viewer would combine these resources, and render them out to the client?
	Geenz Spad	hm
	Maxwell Graf	the other aspect is here saving the sets once you have them. These could be traded among people.
	Geenz Spad	not entirely sure how well that'd go down at LL
		the gradient part at least
	Maxwell Graf	color palettes, gradient sets, etc.
		not the textures, of course.
	Geenz Spad	the texture sets, color pallets, and so on though
16:11	Elie Spot	gradient is a cool idea, but i agree that advanced creators/etc wouldnt make use of it
	Maxwell Graf	I would definately use it.
	Geenz Spad	we're running really short on time here, so looks like I've got some homework for you all!
		and I do apologize for cutting off the conversation for your feature Maxwell
16:12	Maxwell Graf	no worries, its a concept.
	Crash Uladstron	I think it's a nice way to give back some creativity to the average user when so much is being taken away with more advanced skills needed for things like mesh
	Geenz Spad	but I just want to say, that it's very much worth giving some thought
	Maxwell Graf	feel free to use the image as you like.
	dahlia1337 resident	gradient might be easier if it didnt have the center point, then it could be more easily done with vertex colors. Problem is there's no room in the current protocol to add something like that
	Maxwell Graf	id love to have me some thumbnail sets in here.
16:13	Geenz Spad	and with how the asset system works, we'd have to store a gradient as a texture, which means paying for an upload
	Maxwell Graf	i dont like organizers.
	Geenz Spad	so anyways, homework! hurray for homework :P
		a couple things we don't really have time to get into a whole lot of meaningful conversation today, that I'd like everyone to think about:
		first off, how can we improve the build floater
16:14		things are getting cramped, and adding anything new to it seems like a nightmarish process
16:15		this would have implications for many things that could come out of these meetings, and the best thing is it's something we can do something about in the immediate future
		since that's just a viewer-side change
	dahlia1337 resident	the build floater is pretty large now, I have UI scaled up (bad eyes) and it often wont fit in the SL™ viewer window
	Geenz Spad	so, let's think about how we can make it better
	Eboni	we need multi monitor support!
16:16	Geenz Spad	:P
	Braydon Randt	need tob e able to detach off the viewer
	dahlia1337 resident	<3 the thumbnail idea but maybe better in a separate floater
	Braydon Randt	now that WOULD be a good feature
	Maxwell Graf	I would really love the ability to float them off the main window, also, like onto another monitor.
		yes, what braydon said.
	Geenz Spad	next up, something interesting was brought up at the Mesh Import UG yesterday, that I think requires a bit of thought since it'll effect many of you who come to these meetings
	Braydon Randt	so you could have your floaters off your main viewer ...... as I as a builder ... hate having to keep opening those little piggies up
16:17	Geenz Spad	"Extended" skeleton for rigged meshes proposal discussion (continued from the Mesh Import UG) Geenz Spad 14:28, 16 July 2012 (PDT)
		this is one I really wish we had more time to discuss, but here's the gist of what was brought up:
16:18	Typhaon Nishi	thanks Geenz :)
	Geenz Spad	basically, the conversation generally went into what additional bones could we add for content creators to rig against and animate
		maybe not necessarily add them to the default avatar mesh
16:19		but make them available as pre-existing bones that you can rig against; some examples brought up were fingers, toes, even tails and similar
	dahlia1337 resident	face, hair, more limbs, tail, ...
	Geenz Spad	think of it as an "extended" skeleton
	Braydon Randt	ok ... i need to get back to work , so thank you for keeping me upto scratch on morph targets .. ( again) and elts hope we get some movment on it
	Geenz Spad	we're over our time limit
		but I do ask that everyone think about that
16:20	Asha	Thanks for the meeting Geenz.
	Geenz Spad	but anyways, thank you everyone for coming out