Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 3rd, 2012 Meeting

15:06	Geenz Spad	so, welcome everyone to the first content creation improvement meeting!
15:07		these meetings are informal meetings, with the intention of coming up with ideas to improve the state of content creation for second life
15:08	Siddean Munro	Hi Oz :)
	Geenz Spad	the idea is for people to discuss their ideas in a collaborative environment, and if everyone can agree on an idea, that idea will hopefully be made into a proposal at some point for Linden Lab, and prototypes demonstrating that functionality will also eventually be submitted as well
15:09		moving on, the first item on the agenda:
		Educating users on efficiency, and Linden Lab setting building standards. (Stickman)
15:10		this is an interesting one
		care to elaborate Stickman?
	Stickman Ingmann	Sure.
15:12		A lot of content creators come into Second Life without any prior knowledge of how 3D rendering works. Video game companies usually establish a "polygon budget" and a "texture memory budget." At any time, no more than said amount can be displayed on the screen, or it overwhelms the console, or system that the game is being developed for. Second Life has no set budgets or limits. There's no information about the average or minimum system used to access SL. Content creators have no direction on what can and can't be done in Second Life.
		Sometimes this isn't a problem. Sometimes it results in horrible, wasteful creations, that don't need to be so complex and expensive.
15:13	Geenz Spad	so basically, you'd like to educate content creators on making more efficient content?
	Asha	That is seriously needed now that more mesh is hitting the grid.
	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy	I really agree with this. I've seen some things made in mesh that could have been SO much lower land impact, and with smaller res textures without losing quality
	Stickman Ingmann	Yes. Get information about the kinds of systems people use, what they're capable of handling. What viewers people use, what features people have enabled. [15:13] LockallLockall is now active on Inara Pey
15:14	Asha	Like boots with 60,000 triangles. o.o
	Lindsay Pinelli	thank you Siddean xD
	Geenz Spad	well, I don't think LL will be direclty setting a standard that everyone will need to work around, but I think it's worth discussing ideas for what a standard should be
	Stickman Ingmann	I've got an old Jira somewhat related to the issue, too: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2596 About collecting opt-in stats, so content creators know what kinds of system and features they're creating for.
	Braydon Randt	sorry to bring up a chestnut .... but refing build behavour is all well in good , but games use nomals and specular materials systems ... sl can barely squeeze mesh out of its bones
	Geenz Spad	as more of an informal standard that people should be working within
15:15	Siddean Munro	Rather than a standard, what about we propose some documentation on good v bad?
	Geenz Spad	Braydon: we'll touch on that one a bit later
		Siddean's idea could work
	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy	Even if it's just getting the information and education out there, letting people know what they can achieve without going crazy with polys
	Crash Uladstron	I'm with Sid,I think a standard is unrealistic
	Siddean Munro	I think there's a bit of guesswork going on from people not in the professional biz, so to speak
	Crash Uladstron	but a page on the wiki describing what to aim for
	Stickman Ingmann	Geenz, I'm looking for cold hard facts. If someone wants to cater to the top-end systems only? Let them. If they want to create something that even the lowest system that connects to SL can see perfectly? Then they can do that. But right now, it's all shooting in the dark. We have no information.
15:16	Asha	Yes, the point is that some people have no idea what the best practices are. It would be nice for LL to provide an official word on it.
	Siddean Munro	If there was some documentation specifically related to this, it might help people get more efficient builds
	Caine Munro	Real problem to me seems to be financial incentive: If you make a low-poly item that's well done and within a reasonable budget, someone who comes along and blows any poly budget out of the water will look a lot better in advertisements and end up selling more items on marketplace and such.
	Braydon Randt	LL have the policy ... that you can create what you want as long as you are prepared to pay the upload cost for bad modelling ,. the user on the other hand ... suffers the results
	Martin RJ	Braydon there have been mirrors, once, but Windlight broke them
	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy	The problem with catering to one end or another is that tech is getting better as such a rapid rate, targetting a specific tier of tech wouldn't be viable, there'd be a replacement a month later.
	Geenz Spad	maybe we should look at from more of a "if you want to target this group of people, you should work around these constraints" point of view
		that's generally how the game industry looks at it
15:17	Oz Linden	The problem is that the range is too wide for documentation to be of much use to you. If you can imagine it, someone connects to SL with it (and some you probably would never guess). No one system time is even close to more than a low single digit percentage.
		s/time/type/
	Geenz Spad	for example, for high-end PC games, typically a 10,000 triangle character mesh is "okay" for a high detail mesh
15:18	Crash Uladstron	You can't tho because people interract,you target something for powerfull computer owners and their friends with low end computer comes by their 2343545 triangle place
	Geenz Spad	that's fair enough, but this is where we start looking at the different "classes" of hardware
	Braydon Randt	so are we ultimately catering to the lowest comming demoninator ?
15:19	Geenz Spad	not at all
	Braydon Randt	common*
	Raz Welles	I suppose if you wanted to be harsh you could let a region owner dictate how many polys and textures a person is going to be alotted on entering a sim, I'm not a big fan of that idea though :x
	Siddean Munro	What would help solve this issue is bump maps ;) Just as an aside
	Braydon Randt	it would help some .... not all
	Raz Welles	Normal maps would certainly help
	Asha	Normal maps ftw
	Geenz Spad	well, to be fair, custom bump maps do help substantially
15:20	'Kota Buck	But would be great
	Geenz Spad	which I guess kind of blends into #3
	Stickman Ingmann	Raz, the last thing I want is hard limits like that. LL's been doing a lot of work on making a technical solution for "lag." Letting people create their excessive products, and then trying to make the system handle displaying them with minimal lag. I believe a better solution is information, education. Tell content creators what's reasonable.
	Braydon Randt	the useability of them is not in question , but only certain users have the ability to create such maps ... others .. use templates etc and dont have access
	Raz Welles	Stick: and thus I mentioned at the end I don't like the idea either
	Caine Munro	Keep in mind though this isn't fundamentally a tech problem - it is a social one. Without creator incentive to make low(ish) poly items, it'll never be a priority when making new items.
15:21	Raz Welles	I think Caine is right
	Stickman Ingmann	So Oz. You said things are all over the chart. But that doesn't make the information useless. It just means that there are a lot of demographs.
	Raz Welles	though I have seen people do top notch popular stuff with single texture maps zoned
	Caine Munro	A way to incentivise low poly creation would be to make it really clear at purchase time what sort of lag the item 'could' cause. Which is it's own enormous can of worms.
	Geenz Spad	I think it'd help if content creators knew what kind of hardware classes are the most common
	Raz Welles	any way you slice it, the materials project has a lot to offer
	Asha	And yet, som have no frame of reference of what low poly means. That is why there needs to be education from an official channel.
		*some
15:22	Raz Welles	You could save texture space baking your lighting and reusing repeating textures
	Braydon Randt	im sure theres some users .. who want to access SL .. with a computer no more powerfull than an Iphone
	Stickman Ingmann	I don't want to spend the whole time arguing about what information is and isn't useful for content creators to have. Can we move on to the materials project? I'd really like to hear more about that.
15:23	Raz Welles	Yeah what's up on materials
	Geenz Spad	well, education is one problem that we'd have to find ways to fix amongst our selves, and we definitely won't be figuring out how to fix that problem in a single meeting
	Braydon Randt	well .... cload party have them ... SL doesnt .... hense the migration
		cloud*
15:24	Geenz Spad	so, materials!
	Tyr Rozenblum	I was going to say that, well sort of. Cloud party has bumps/materials/etc.
	Oz Linden	Think about what metrics you could expose in the viewer to help people understand what contributes to costs
	Braydon Randt	again ... we are catering to lowest common denominator
	Tyr Rozenblum	not to compare i know the intention isnt to talk about other games. But its browser based and will be able to eventually run on tablets
	'Kota Buck	I'm not sure you can really call it a migration to cloud party at this point.
	Geenz Spad	I know plenty of things about materials.
	Tyr Rozenblum	definatly not a migration lol
	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy	It's not a migration, it's not even out of it's first week.
15:25	Geenz Spad	first off, a solution has been proposed to LL
	sachi Vixen	I don't think bumpers persay will make people migratebut they are certainly going tohelp content there look classy. Add that to a genius, simple UI and you have a potential winner.
	Stickman Ingmann	More about materials, less about Cloud Party.
	Siddean Munro	Offtopic people, can we get back to the materials? :)
	Braydon Randt	thats my point .... i want materials .... more than pathfinders ... or being able to view on a calcualtor
	Tyr Rozenblum	I was using the comparison to say that it is possible to get it and people on dated computers still run alright.
	Martin RJ	lol Braydon
15:26	sachi Vixen	That was bump maps not car bumpers [15:26] AshaAsha chuckles at Braydon
	Geenz Spad	the solution proposed was a collaboration between myself and Ash Qin
		what did make it into the proposal is such:
		custom bump maps
		custom specular maps
15:27	Braydon Randt	we have a great system with second life ... and i want to see it kick competitors asses ... i want it to have the technology that was available at least 10 years ago ... so not having a materials system is not really acceptable in this day and age
	Geenz Spad	and a couple of other things I won't quite get into as of yet
	Martin RJ	how'd you make that backwards-compatible, Geenz?
	Geenz Spad	but what I will say, is progress is being made, and hopefully there'll be more information soon [15:27] LockallLockall is now active on Inara Pey
15:28	Raz Welles	Sorry I want to get something cleared up for myself, am I correct in assuming we're using bump maps and normal maps as interchangeable terms here? I thought bump maps referred to single dimension heights while normal maps can account for lighting in 3 dimensions
	Siddean Munro	Is there any way we can keep tabs on it?
	Asha	Is this project for a specific viewer?
	Stickman Ingmann	So you told me you had more information than anyone else on materials, and all you're going to say is "progress is being made, but we can't tell you what?"
	Geenz Spad	Asha: this project is for the official viewer, but of course other TPVs will benefit directly from it as such [15:28] AshaAsha waves to Phadrus. ^^
	Asha	Ok thanks Geenz
15:29	Braydon Randt	aso bottom line .. no BS ... is a materials system being develped ?
	Caine Munro	Stick: No point promising things that aren't certain yet.
	Geenz Spad	Braydon: work is being done, and the overall hope is that we'll be able to show you something soon :)
	Braydon Randt	terms like " hope" .... come along with " possible"
15:30	Typhaon Nishi	is there a place for updates on this project as Siddean asked previously?
	Siddean Munro	That's more promising than nothing is happening at all :)
	Braydon Randt	yet ... what i want to know is " yes its being done..." sorry to sound like yoda yere ... but " there is no try .... only do"
	Asha	I'm glad to hear someone is working on adding bump and specular maps.
	Toast Bard	haha
15:31	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy	There's definitely progress at least, that's good to hear
	Geenz Spad	unfortunately, right now updates will be coming as things are completed; of course there's some things I can't talk about here *yet*, but please understand I'm working as hard as I can to pretty up Second Life however I can :)
		and materials is most definitely a large item on my to-do list
	Oz Linden	I'll try to de-mystify a bit.... Geenz is being careful
15:32	Braydon Randt	come on OZ .. educate me
		by my light
		guide me
	Oz Linden	They've been working on a proposal, and we've been looking at it very closely
	Braydon Randt	so 3 years then ?
15:33	Siana Gearz	why is the process not more open than that?
	Oz Linden	doing it would require some server side support, of course, and we've been trying to refine the goals to be something we can get done
	Stickman Ingmann	Heh. Why is everything in SL so closed now? They used to tell us what broke and why and how they fixed it when the servers went down.
	Martin RJ	because some TPV-devs would jump on it right at this very moment and implement features that aren't finished yet - I believe
	Siana Gearz	>.<
15:34	Caine Munro	As an unrelated developer talking: It's not more open than that because there's not a lot of point to have non-technical input on a very technical implementation and Braydon - where do you think code comes from?
	Martin RJ	not you :P
	Siana Gearz	Caine, well, some code could come from ME but i feel excluded from the get go.
	Stickman Ingmann	So what's the scope of the materials project? Bumpmap, specular, normal maps? More or less than that?
	Braydon Randt	allthough i accept and agree, that rushing forward can mean a lot of clean up for the mistakes that get dragged in , i can also say ... that the overall server side issues asside ... the content creators want it ... they need it ... it will reduce load on the servers with reduced model cost ... ergo its a win win
15:35	Geenz Spad	for a version 1 release, more or less that Stickman
	Oz Linden	that's still not nearly decided, Stickman
	Braydon Randt	ive got a degree in real time systems programming from Brighton Uni ... so im not exactl spethal
	Geenz Spad	but we're still determining what will be in a version 1 release, but I promise everyone here, that the moment I can say something more, I will
15:36	Stickman Ingmann	And you can't give us a time? "Within three years" or "before Christmas" or any of that?
	Braydon Randt	thats my question .. just knowing that it is on the horizon is good to know
	Geenz Spad	what I will say regarding timeline is more speculation at this point, so please don't take this as a promise in any form
	Braydon Randt	as " maybe and possibly" is a no
	Geenz Spad	I can't stress that enough
15:37	Stickman Ingmann	I understand time estimates. I would hope everyone here is a content creator and has blown through their own deadlines.
	Geenz Spad	but my hope is, we'll have something shown off to the community, and something for people to be testing by the end of the year, or sometime early next year
	Stickman Ingmann	That's promising, at least.
15:38	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	whats this for?
	Geenz Spad	this isn't something I have any intention of dragging out any longer than it needs to be
	Raz Welles	Stick: I don't have deadlines anymore, I've blown so far past them they've become the undead-lines
	Geenz Spad	Tank: materials
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	more spcifically? [15:38] Oz LindenOz Linden has to leave...
		tc oz
	Siddean Munro	Ok oz, thanks for coming
	Stickman Ingmann	Thanks for coming, Oz.
15:39		Not too much time left, should we move on to the next topic?
	Typhaon Nishi	cheers Oz
	Geenz Spad	anyways, moving on to our next agenda item
		Discussing morph targets for deforming mesh. (Siddean Munro)
	Stickman Ingmann	I can fill up the end of the meeting with a number of Jiras about content creation tools I pulled up.
	Martin RJ	Bye Oz
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	sorry I was late, i was told this started at 3:30
	Siddean Munro	We have a third item on the agenda
	Geenz Spad	Stickman: by all means
	Siddean Munro	4th, I should say
	Geenz Spad	but yeah, so, morph targets
	Stickman Ingmann	First, Siddean's morph targets. Is that a thing? An actual possibility? I was told we were getting custom bones, no morph targets. Ever.
15:40	Raz Welles	Yeah we were initially shut down on morph targets
		a solid loud resounding "no"
	Geenz Spad	I've had a couple of conversations regarding this
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	wheres the agenda?
	Geenz Spad	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
	Siddean Munro	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
	Phoenix-FirestormViewer Rocks	thx
15:41	Geenz Spad	from what I'm hearing, it's not a definite "no"
		but there are however, some things that need to happen before that on LL's side
	Raz Welles	totally listening now
	Stickman Ingmann	Do you have a list of the things that need to happen on their side, or is it just a nebulous excuse for them to finish without accountability?
15:43		Any news on custom skeletons, or have those not been mentioned?
	Geenz Spad	I don't have a 100%% definite list of things that need to happen, but I have an overall gist; there's a few backend things that will need to happen, and there's a few file format things that'll need to happen; some of it a viewer developer can handle, the rest of it LL has to handle
		those haven't been mentioned to me
	Siddean Munro	Is there a jira or proposal doco for this?
	Stickman Ingmann	So it sounds like we're more likely to get morph targets than custom skeletons at this point.
15:44	Geenz Spad	so anyways, back on the subject of morph targets
	Tyr Rozenblum	Something I wondered and Oz, or anyone directly involved might be able to answer this best. Something that concerned me (even though i was and am one of the ones pushing for it)
	Geenz Spad	let's discuss how morph targets would effect content creators
	Tyr Rozenblum	is what about mesh out now. We know with the deformer its atleast useable. But would the new 'cbones" being introduced back in, effect everything out on the grid to date?
15:45	Geenz Spad	from my understanding regarding cBones, they're additional bones you can optionally rig your mesh to
	Siddean Munro	You would probably have to reweight your mesh
	Stickman Ingmann	Morph targets would make up for all of the things the skeleton can't handle. Wiggling toes, bending fingers, facial expressions. You could even use it for slider-base face customization on custom mesh avatars.
	Geenz Spad	if they're not rigged, your mesh shouldn't really deform around them, but I'd like to have RedPoly discuss how that'd effect content creators
15:46	Siddean Munro	Custom morph targets would be my personal preference
15:47	Geenz Spad	so anyways, morph targets; for those of you who don't really know what these are, they'd basically enable a content creator to "paint" how they want their meshes to look if they adjusted a slider [15:47] AshaAsha would prefer morph targets as well.
15:48		so you could for example, have a muscular morph target, or a slim morph target, or even a fat morph target; and all content creators would have to do is sculpt these shapes out to how they feel the final result should look
	Stickman Ingmann	I want anything. If I can't get custom skeletons, I'll make due with morph targets. Both have some serious strengths and drawbacks, but something is better than nothing.
		Especially considering we don't have "UUID flipping" on meshes.
	Raz Welles	The most powerful combination would be the ability to dictate animation position and morph target position in a single llsetprimitiveparamsfast
15:49	Geenz Spad	now really, at its core, there's two different questions that should be discussed concerning morph targets
	Siddean Munro	Morph targets would add more work, but about as much work as adding and weighting to extra bones, methinks. From a builder's perspective
15:50	Geenz Spad	the content creator facing question is, how should the content creators work with this? what kind of work flow would be ideal?
	Crash Uladstron	we're doing a lot of work as things are now anyway
	Siddean Munro	Yep
	Anouk Spot	yeah
	Asha	No kidding
	Typhaon Nishi	(insert affirmative response here)
	Geenz Spad	I imagine being able to sculpt how a mesh should deform would be a god send :P
	Raz Welles	from a time perspective, I do like the no-extra-work nature of Qarl's deformer, if you could bake that server side like you bake textures I think that would be pretty ace
15:51	Siddean Munro	could the morph target information be included in the SLM file for upload?
	Crash Uladstron	it would be yes
	Braydon Randt	trying to work within a system ... with still allow existing content .. just newer content will have the new finctionality , wether you choose to update your content is a personal choice
	Stickman Ingmann	I'm not sure I understand the question. We make various morph targets for a mesh, we probably name them something specific in the file before we upload them. Then we access them via script or some new UI element to slide the mesh between the morphs.
	Raz Welles	siddean: you shoudl be able to
		Morphs are just the same set of verts with different positions, and then interpolated between the two
	Geenz Spad	Siddean: with a few extensions to the format, yes
	Siddean Munro	Like.. just thinking aloud, morph targets or shape keys with the same name as the SL morph targets they are related to
15:52	Raz Welles	it's a linear interpolation so it can only really go in a straight line if it's between two morphs
		though multiple morphs at one time may let you correct that
	Geenz Spad	Raz: we'll focus on the technical side of the conversation on the next meeting
	Raz Welles	ok
	Geenz Spad	since we only have 8 minutes left
	Raz Welles	d'oh
15:53	Geenz Spad	so anyways, I guess we could do something like, specifying groups that correspond to different shape sliders on the existing avatar mesh
		and if you want your mesh to morph around those parameters, you simply add your morph target to that group in whatever 3D application you use
15:54	Siddean Munro	That's what makes sense to me
	Raz Welles	This might be out of bounds but, maybe you could dynamically generate the set of sliders and UI by reading the file? It would mean a new floater though
	Geenz Spad	that would be awesome
	Raz Welles	Then you wouldn't be restricted to what's in the viewer
	Geenz Spad	but right now, we have to look at it from what would likely make it into a version one release
15:55		and the most obvious application for this would be an alternative to the mesh deformer to enable aritsts to specify how something should deform instead of leaving it up to the mesh deformer
15:56	Asha	And the Lindens are open to the morph target possibility now? They were dead set against it before.
	Stickman Ingmann	I'm having trouble understand your talk of mesh deforming and morph targets. These sound like different things.
	Siddean Munro	Would it be possible to have both systems side by side?
	Raz Welles	Morphs with LSL interface, newbies wouldn't be able to create sliders but plenty of people here are battle hardened to make theri own UI's
	Stickman Ingmann	Asha, that's what we just heard, yes. No word on custom skeletons, their "real" solution, and morph targets are a possibility.
	Raz Welles	Just another random thought heh
	Geenz Spad	I will say I haven't heard a "no", and I've heard that it would be cool if something were to be started, so we'll just have to see what happens
	Raz Welles	*their
15:57	Asha	Ah, I see.
	Raz Welles	gotcha
	Typhaon Nishi	maybe in time there could be an option to have the default deformer or have some kind of custom deformation
	Asha	Well, I guess that is an improvement over the solid no in the past.
	Stickman Ingmann	I don't know if everyone is on the same page here. "morph target" is a very specific 3D modeling term.
	Siddean Munro	We are on the right page Stick
	Raz Welles	morph target == shape key == blend shape
	Geenz Spad	Stickman: we are, it's more how they're being utilized
15:58	Stickman Ingmann	You create a model, say a face, and a second model, say the same face with the eyelids closed. Then you can "slide" between the two. They need to have the same number of faces, etc, and it interpolates the vertex positions between the two, depending on how far you push the slider.
	Geenz Spad	in this context, as an alternative to a solution that's been said to have sometimes spotty results
	Siddean Munro	That's what we're talking about
	Crash Uladstron	yes Stick
	Stickman Ingmann	Right, but I heard other people saying things that was confusing me. I wanted to make sure we were on the same page. Not saying it for those that already know.
	Siddean Munro	s an alternative to the deformer which calculates the distance the mesh has to float about the avvie skin
15:59		With no creator control
	Geenz Spad	right
	Crash Uladstron	I do think a default deformer needs to be in place as well as this
	Stickman Ingmann	So are we talking about custom morph targets, or are we talking about hooking into the appearance settings and their morph targets?
16:00	Geenz Spad	Stickman: a bit of both
	Typhaon Nishi	yeah like a have a tick box option to use the "default deformer" or "custom deformations"
	Siddean Munro	For now we're talking about using the existing ones, but someone raised the question of customs
	Geenz Spad	in a perfect world, we'd have custom bones, custom morph targets, and similar
		and an interface to expose the various settings for all o this
		of*
	Raz Welles	and a better scripting language
	Geenz Spad	:P
	Braydon Randt	i want cake
	Raz Welles	xP
16:01	Geenz Spad	I still can't believe M shelved C# scripting :P
	Asha	Well, it would be nice if residents can come to a consensus on what they want the most...first.
		They won't do them all.
	Stickman Ingmann	What I want would be custom morph targets. Unrelated to anything SL already has.
	Braydon Randt	mesh people want materials
		clothing makers want materials and deformers
	Geenz Spad	honestly, I'd support Qarl's mesh deformer being an "easy" solution for those who don't really mind what the outcome is
	Siddean Munro	Right, Braydon :)
	Braydon Randt	non mesh makers .. want flexies, larger textures and no mesh
	Raz Welles	Yes for clothing, I think people would want to spend more time designing new clothes and less time weight painting
16:02	MartinRJ Fayray	I want hyperjump xD
	Crash Uladstron	morph targets is a good solution however entry level creators would need a default deformer imo
	Braydon Randt	and i .. personally ... still want cake
	Geenz Spad	I agree with Crash
	Martin RJ	I want Braydon's cake
	Siddean Munro	Yep, it's be nice to have both options
	Geenz Spad	looks like we'll be going a bit over our time limit discussing the content creation side of things
	Siddean Munro	sorry for typos, my fingers are frozen :/
	Siana Gearz	morph targets don't eat away on number of bones that a vertex can be affected by.
16:03	Geenz Spad	which is fine, we'll just pick up on the dev side of things next meeting
	Asha	The thing is...if you can build a model, you can build a morph. There isn't a huge skill jump there.
	Raz Welles	I think you could sneak in morph targets and just offer an LSL api to its interpolation position initially
	Martin RJ	hyperjump is a great method for 'content creation' on my own grid!
	Siana Gearz	two are simply not enough in the pelvic area.
	Techplex Engineer	I'd like a better prim align tool that doesn't just use square bounding boxes
	Stickman Ingmann	What Raz said.
		That's version 1.
	Raz Welles	yes
	Martin RJ	second Techplex
	Crash Uladstron	If you can build a model you can build a morph agreed,you're udnerestimating the amount of people using cloth simulators etc
	Braydon Randt	actually .. i want one system ... thats consistant , so i can learn it .. and mvoe on
	Martin RJ	and I want a better build-grid
16:04	Raz Welles	So it's come to this
	Toast Bard	speaking of cake when will we be talking about the alpha glitch with rigged mesh?
	Asha	You can make a morph even easier if you use most cloth simulators, especially Marvelous Designer which a number of people are using.
16:05	Braydon Randt	like you eh ash *pokes her side*
16:06	Crash Uladstron	that is true however many have a very low understanding of anything beyond making a model and copying weights,not that I'm defending them or anything lol
	Stickman Ingmann	Alright, I'm heading out. Thanks for the information, Geenz.
	Geenz Spad	I think that goes more into the education bit :P
		but anyways
		thanks for coming out to the meeting everyone
	Asha	lol
	Geenz Spad	we'll be picking up where we left off with next tuesday's meeting