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Agenda

I thought the decision to limit mesh uploads to payment info on file/used was discussed and shot down a long time back during the closed beta days. Why has it returned all of a sudden as a near-certainty? (Tiberious Neruda)
It seems there are upload issues with specific Collada files. Namely, Collada v1.4.0 is ok, but the newer v1.4.1 files (as outputted from i.e. 3dsMax2012) show problems. (Forum post at http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Collada-Version-Supported/m-p/923127 ). Therefore which Collada version(s), XML tags, or 3D programs are *supported* by the Second Life model importer? Supported = if it doesn't work, you will treat it as a bug in the importer. (DanielRavenNest Noe)
An extra complication of the above issue remains the one described at JIRA CTS-603 which particularly seems to hit Maya users, even when the collada output is 1.4.0 (Maya 2011 with FBX 2011.x), due to the way the materials are handled with it. The viewer still ignores material names but sticks to the order that they are written in each LOD Collada file, resulting in jumbled materials. (Angel Alphaville)
To expand on the above issues, the proper question is not whether we should waste time with specific programs (as put in the forum), but whether the 3D builder demographics are restricted strictly to Blender users or not. "Blender" is the most frequently written word in the forum as if it's the start and end of 3D software (which is not the case). (Angel Alphaville)
Please update us on offset pivots, AssetPivot and potential use of <geometry> origin. [Drongle McMahon]
Is it still true that a vertex can be assigned to a max of 4 groups? [Ashasekayi Ra]
I'm still having an issue with the uploader closing the opening on an arch when Step 1: Analysis and Step 2: Simplification are used. http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Physics-Uploader-Closing-Holes/td-p/924041 So, do I need to use Step 1 and Step 2 if the physics mesh that I created is low poly to begin with? (In this arch example, the physics mesh had 16 triangles.) Does the hull generated after Step 1 and 2 somehow make the physics shape more efficient? [Ashasekayi Ra]
If I wanted to get the most accurate idea of how many prims a mesh object converts to, do I look at the "selection streaming cost" number under "Show Render Info"? [Ashasekayi Ra]
Can you please update us on recent progress and tell us what your current priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre]
Is there anything in particular you need us to focus our testing on? [Vivienne Daguerre]
In the recent and current mesh viewer, when I enable lighting and shadow my screen goes black. I can see things like the minimap and hovertext above my avatar, but HUD textures are messed up. I am using 2 ATI 5870 video cards in my Alienware laptop. Anyone else having this problem? The development viewer works just fine for me. Should I file a jira or are you aware of this issue? [Vivienne Daguerre]
the black screen appears on my screen also when i set full screen (30). When i make it smaller, the scene reappears. [Gaia]
Why are slm files binary ? And does it make sense to get a generateable XML file instead to prepare for easy (scripted) support from 3D editors? See [CTS-634] [Gaia]
Is there documentation in laymen's terms yet? [Eleanora Newell]
Is there a repository of videos on mesh techniques? I know Gaia is working on some thngs? I am looking specifically for information on offsetting bones for avatars that are micro and not human. [Eleanora Newell]
Is there a matrix of what actually last known to be working build download works on which beta region?
Recently Richard Linden marked http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2242 as "fixed" but provided no information. Is this mesh related, or do I need to bug Andrew and Simon about it tomorrow to see if they have an answer? -Stickman 12:14, 13 June 2011 (PDT)
What's PRIM TEST on Mesh City 2...Can see old meshes from outside but they disappear from inside...can't delete them.[Drongle]

Meeting Notes

Attendees List

Transcript for Monday June 13, 2011

[12:01]	Vivienne Daguerre	/me smiles...
[12:01]	Vivienne Daguerre	ah, SL... where the men are men, and the women are men, and the kids are FBI
[12:01]	Eleanora Newell	boy, i can't get anything to work
[12:01]	arton Rotaru	and the mommys on wooden hardware should upgrade someday
[12:01]	Ann Otoole	i made a male avatar. it is nearly impossible to outfit a male avatar. ergo everyone is a female because designers refuse to cater to males.
[12:02]	Artisan Gearhead	haha
[12:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	/me chuckles at Vivienne
[12:02]	Ann Otoole	and the makle avatar is based on ruth so it always has shape issues anyway
[12:02]	Gaia Clary	we seem to be closed out ;-)
[12:02]	Gaia Clary	ahhh
[12:02]	Ann Otoole	*male
[12:02]	Eleanora Newell	i can't im or anything
[12:02]	Ann Otoole	which mesh may correct
[12:02]	arton Rotaru	we can't go on with SL with it's minecraft looking builds
[12:02]	Charlar Linden	ok, let's get started.
[12:03]	Charlar Linden	actually, one sec.
[12:03]	Nyx Linden	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import/Scripting_User_Group
[12:03]	arton Rotaru	ouch
[12:03]	Charlar Linden	ok, first item:
[12:03]	Charlar Linden	I thought the decision to limit mesh uploads to payment info on file/used was discussed and shot down a long time back during the closed beta days. Why has it returned all of a sudden as a near-certainty? (Tiberious Neruda)
[12:04]	Charlar Linden	The steps required to become mesh enabled are not final. Our goal is to provide some small steps that will dissuade some level of infringer/griefer, and also give some information to people who may not have a good understanding of what can qualify as IP infringement. We know that the people out there who are intent will not be stopped by this; blinking car alarm lights will not stop a professional car thief.
[12:04]	arton Rotaru	expected answer
[12:04]	Latif Khalifa	It will cause major problems for people from some coutnries if PIOF remains a requirement
[12:04]	Latif Khalifa	countries*'
[12:04]	Charlar Linden	ha, I had doing the expected
[12:04]	Masami Kuramoto	why not piof for all uploads?
[12:05]	Charlar Linden	had = hate
[12:05]	arton Rotaru	lol
[12:05]	Rex Cronon	greetings
[12:05]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Hey Rex
[12:05]	Charlar Linden	We're aware of PIOF and non-us issues
[12:05]	Charlar Linden	ok, so moving on?
[12:05]	Rex Cronon	hi ashasekayi
[12:05]	Artisan Gearhead	whats PIOF?
[12:05]	Eleanora Newell	wonders why she can hear people, but not see any
[12:06]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	payment info on file
[12:06]	arton Rotaru	Payment Info on file
[12:06]	Kitteh Scientist	Payment Info On File
[12:06]	Rex Cronon	i just got here. what u mean move on?
[12:06]	arton Rotaru	3rd
[12:06]	Artisan Gearhead	ah, ty, ty, ty :)
[12:06]	Rex Cronon	this is the most interesting topic:)
[12:06]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Please do Charlar
[12:06]	Latif Khalifa	Poor Rex
[12:06]	Charlar Linden	next item: It seems there are upload issues with specific Collada files. Namely, Collada v1.4.0 is ok, but the newer v1.4.1 files (as outputted from i.e. 3dsMax2012) show problems. (Forum post at http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Collada-Version-Supported/m-p/923127 ). Therefore which Collada version(s), XML tags, or 3D programs are supported by the Second Life model importer? Supported = if it doesn't work, you will treat it as a bug in the importer. (DanielRavenNest Noe)
[12:06]	Latif Khalifa	no mesh for you!
[12:07]	Prep Linden	We use Collada 1.4 and are focusing support on Blender, 3D Studio, and Maya. We have blender and 3D Studio 2010 and 2011 in house,
[12:07]	Rex Cronon	now there is 2minutes per topic?
[12:07]	Charlar Linden	no, just didn't see anyone talking...
[12:07]	Tapple Gao	Eletnora: maybe you need to update your viewer. the latest is 2.7.3 I believe, and can be downloaded from http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/mesh-development/rev/232686/index.html
[12:07]	Gaia Clary	collada 1.4.0 you mean exactly, correct ?
[12:07]	Charlar Linden	We have 15 topics, btw.
[12:07]	Charlar Linden	so far.
[12:07]	Prep Linden	gaiaL yes 1,4.0
[12:07]	Charlar Linden	now 16 topics
[12:08]	arton Rotaru	things add up like prims^^
[12:08]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	heh
[12:08]	Eleanora Newell	2.7.3 is what i am using, but can't see anything or anyone
[12:08]	Charlar Linden	ha
[12:08]	Tapple Gao	well, I see you elenora
[12:08]	Eleanora Newell	:)
[12:08]	Eleanora Newell	at least i hear you guys and you hear me :)
[12:08]	TheBlack Box	and you look cute as always ;)
[12:09]	Eleanora Newell	heh
[12:09]	Charlar Linden	next item, related:
[12:09]	Charlar Linden	An extra complication of the above issue remains the one described at JIRA CTS-603 which particularly seems to hit Maya users, even when the collada output is 1.4.0 (Maya 2011 with FBX 2011.x), due to the way the materials are handled with it. The viewer still ignores material names but sticks to the order that they are written in each LOD Collada file, resulting in jumbled materials. (Angel Alphaville)
[12:09]	Prep Linden	That's a bug and should be fixed this sprint.
[12:09]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	easily reproducible too
[12:09]	Drongle McMahon	Prep....will that affect Blender too?
[12:10]	Drongle McMahon	...using the names instead of the triangle list order?
[12:10]	arton Rotaru	don't talk about triangles ^^
[12:10]	arton Rotaru	I had nightmares of triangles^^
[12:11]	Tapple Gao	I eat triangles for lunch
[12:11]	arton Rotaru	I have a lot of them^^
[12:11]	Drongle McMahon	Oh yes....if we can only have one triangle, there won't be any materialo problems.
[12:11]	Nyx Linden	I'm not sure which packages are affected, but its a bug in how we interpret the collada file, so its important for us to fix it :)
[12:11]	Tapple Gao	triangles and salsa. yum
[12:12]	arton Rotaru	McTrianles
[12:12]	arton Rotaru	+g
[12:12]	Gaia Clary	Nyx, what 3D tool do you use for internal testing ?
[12:12]	Prep Linden	Blender and max 2010 and 2011
[12:12]	Charlar Linden	a littel sketchup
[12:12]	Gaia Clary	which blender
[12:12]	Nyx Linden	we have a range of test collada files from a variety of sources
[12:12]	arton Rotaru	blender 2.49 only?
[12:12]	Drongle McMahon	OK. That will breakmy collada files, but I suppose it's the right way :-(
[12:12]	Prep Linden	gaia : i uise 2.49b
[12:12]	Prep Linden	*use
[12:12]	Nyx Linden	more test content is always appreciated :)
[12:13]	Prep Linden	+100
[12:13]	Charlar Linden	+1000
[12:13]	Jennifur Vultee	I was getting scrambled textures with opencollada but when I switched to the official autodesk 3DS Max 8 FBX plugin that fixed it
[12:13]	arton Rotaru	takes some time to readjust the LODs to the new accounting
[12:13]	arton Rotaru	so be patient lindens
[12:13]	Jennifur Vultee	but that was last year
[12:13]	Drongle McMahon	But we keep having to make the same content over and over again.
[12:13]	arton Rotaru	and push release a month back
[12:13]	Charlar Linden	let's throw in the next agenda item:
[12:13]	Charlar Linden	To expand on the above issues, the proper question is not whether we should waste time with specific programs (as put in the forum), but whether the 3D builder demographics are restricted strictly to Blender users or not. "Blender" is the most frequently written word in the forum as if it's the start and end of 3D software (which is not the case). (Angel Alphaville)
[12:13]	Prep Linden	No, support for 3D Studio and Maya is very valuable, but blender is the most often used program in the beta so it's the most likely to work. As a workaround until we resolve 3D Studio and Maya compatibility issues, you can export to .obj or similar, import to Blender, and export to Collada.
[12:14]	Jennifur Vultee	o.0
[12:14]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	mind you, anything with FBX 2012.x is problematic as it seems
[12:14]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	so try to reproduce the problem with FBX 2011.x exporter
[12:15]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	And yet, pivots work for Maya not Blender. So, obviously no one program is getting all the love.
[12:15]	arton Rotaru	are they working in Maya?
[12:15]	Tapple Gao	what are pivots?
[12:15]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	the essence of the question is of course, that there are many that simpy will not learn other programs except the ones they have incested in
[12:15]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	At first they were
[12:15]	Masami Kuramoto	lol
[12:15]	Jennifur Vultee	I tried exporting through blender in the closede beta...I couldn't figure it out
[12:15]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	invested, sorry
[12:15]	Ann Otoole	incested in? kinkeh
[12:15]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	lol
[12:15]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	yeah kinky syntax error
[12:16]	Gaia Clary	where can i find information about pivots ? maybe i can take a look into the collada exporter ;-) i did that once
[12:16]	Ann Otoole	game of thrones! lannisters!
[12:16]	Eata Kitty	Spoilers >:O
[12:16]	Rex Cronon	from what i understant pivots r points of rotation defined by user for a mesh
[12:16]	Charlar Linden	ok, moving on to the next topic:
[12:16]	Charlar Linden	Please update us on offset pivots, AssetPivot and potential use of <geometry> origin. [Drongle McMahon]
[12:16]	Gaia Clary	rex, thanks.
[12:16]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	( chat lag )
[12:16]	Rex Cronon	np:)
[12:17]	arton Rotaru	I was able to upload a custom pivot using an .slm file
[12:17]	Prep Linden	We still have this in our queue, but it's unlikely that it'll be ready for the initial release.
[12:17]	arton Rotaru	but not with a new created dae
[12:17]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	:(((
[12:17]	Drongle McMahon	:-(((((((
[12:17]	Ann Otoole	awwww people cryin :(
[12:18]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	/me wishes she had her sad kitty ears now.
[12:18]	arton Rotaru	scripts can help
[12:18]	TheBlack Box	8'-O
[12:18]	Gearsawe Stonecutter	/me is hopeful
[12:18]	Drongle McMahon	I think that would be cworth a delay.
[12:18]	Tapple Gao	what is a pivot? new joints? rotating the avatar joints to match the dae skeleton?
[12:18]	arton Rotaru	true drongle
[12:18]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Yes, I know. I just didn't want to go the script route.
[12:18]	arton Rotaru	no, think of a door
[12:18]	Drongle McMahon	Exactly Arton ... there will be expensive work-arounds
[12:18]	arton Rotaru	that rotates on the edge
[12:19]	arton Rotaru	like pathcut doors today
[12:19]	TheBlack Box	think "center of rotation"
[12:19]	Ann Otoole	yea would be nice. but how many delays are tolerable?
[12:19]	arton Rotaru	puppeteer animals will miss it too
[12:19]	Drongle McMahon	Or ma gallery doors :-)
[12:19]	Drongle McMahon	ma=my
[12:19]	Ann Otoole	jira? watchers?
[12:19]	Drongle McMahon	None Anee, I suspect.
[12:20]	Tapple Gao	oh. is center of rotation always the center of the mesh, and not the origin in the dae file?
[12:20]	arton Rotaru	yup
[12:20]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Yes, that is teh problem.
[12:20]	Charlar Linden	Ok, that seems to be wrapping. Shall we move on?
[12:20]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	*the
[12:20]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Sure
[12:20]	Charlar Linden	next item:
[12:20]	Charlar Linden	Is it still true that a vertex can be assigned to a max of 4 groups? [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:20]	Prep Linden	Tapple: yes. pivot points allows you to define the origin for the dae.
[12:20]	Drongle McMahon	Anne .... CTS-496
[12:21]	Prep Linden	There is a max of 4 joint influences per vertex at present. This may change in the future, but for now that is the limit. Note that this is double the number of influences per vertex for the default avatar mesh.
[12:21]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Ok thanks. I was just making sure.
[12:21]	Rex Cronon	what is your definition for "influence"?
[12:22]	Gaia Clary	is that tested on the importer and ,eshes with more assigned groups get rejected ?
[12:22]	Prep Linden	influence = weighted.
[12:22]	Gaia Clary	or are the influences silently dropped ?
[12:22]	TheBlack Box	or does the viewer juist crash ? :)
[12:22]	Gearsawe Stonecutter	ah not smoothing groups
[12:23]	Gaia Clary	so it makes sense to enhance the mesh checker tool for blender ... ?
[12:23]	Drongle McMahon	Or you get tomlook like Tapple?
[12:23]	Prep Linden	gaia: I added code to the importer that checks to make sure that all vertices are weighted.
[12:23]	Gaia Clary	yes, i saw. but now you also say that if a vertex is assigned to more than 4 groups...
[12:24]	Gaia Clary	what happens if a vertex IS assigned to more than groups ?
[12:24]	Eata Kitty	It explodes
[12:24]	arton Rotaru	yeah
[12:24]	Prep Linden	There was a problem where if a vert came in unweighted that it would render incorrectly and sometimes crash.ted that the render
[12:24]	Tapple Gao	all vertices must be weighted? hmm. could be useful to have a part that just held still at the bounding box origin
[12:25]	Gaia Clary	tapple, then weight them to zero....
[12:25]	Prep Linden	gaia: groups aren't correctly checked.
[12:25]	Gaia Clary	the problem was that some verts where not included in AMY group
[12:25]	Prep Linden	tapple: make them 0.
[12:25]	arton Rotaru	like prim count^^
[12:25]	Tapple Gao	k
[12:25]	Gaia Clary	but what happens when a vertex is assigned to more than 4 groups ????
[12:26]	Tapple Gao	would that be the cause of the error I'm seeing on an uploaded mesh? expected: 4382 vertices, got 4377
[12:26]	Gaia Clary	tapple, i think so you have verts which are not assigend...
[12:26]	Gearsawe Stonecutter	sound like it jsut ingores the 5th and above?
[12:27]	Gaia Clary	it still would be interesting t know which 4 are used ;-)
[12:27]	Eata Kitty	If they say there is a max of four why would you try five... it's not supported...
[12:28]	Gaia Clary	the weight tools might just do that Eata.
[12:28]	Eata Kitty	I assume it gives a warning on upload
[12:28]	Prep Linden	gaia: do you have an asset that is assigned to more then 4 groups - as I'm not sure what would happen.
[12:28]	Gaia Clary	hah!
[12:28]	Gaia Clary	ill make one ;-)
[12:28]	Prep Linden	thanks!
[12:28]	Charlar Linden	OK, next item:
[12:28]	Charlar Linden	I'm still having an issue with the uploader closing the opening on an arch when Step 1: Analysis and Step 2: Simplification are used. http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Physics-Uploader-Closing-Holes/td-p/924041 So, do I need to use Step 1 and Step 2 if the physics mesh that I created is low poly to begin with? (In this arch example, the physics mesh had 16 triangles.) Does the hull generated after Step 1 and 2 somehow make the physics shape more efficient? [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:29]	Nyx Linden	If your physics mesh is only 16 triangles and the object will have a reasonable size (at least, say, a couple meters on an edge), there's not necessarily a need to decompose. However, decomposing should work. If you can file a jira with the .dae attached, I can have a look. My guess is that you just need to set the "Detail Scale" to a smaller value than it currently allow. We're hoping to fix the scaling on that slider soon which will make this easier to deal with.
[12:29]	Nyx Linden	so if you haven't given us the DAE file please do so :)
[12:29]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Sure I can send you the file.
[12:29]	arton Rotaru	sounds good
[12:30]	Charlar Linden	then let's keep moving
[12:30]	Charlar Linden	next:
[12:30]	Charlar Linden	If I wanted to get the most accurate idea of how many prims a mesh object converts to, do I look at the "selection streaming cost" number under "Show Render Info"? [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:30]	arton Rotaru	Now my both comes into play^^
[12:30]	arton Rotaru	booth*
[12:30]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	/me snorts
[12:31]	Monster LagGroup (eddi.decosta)	hi there sorry, this interupt
[12:31]	Nyx Linden	Show render info. Note that this equation is far from finalized. If you have a mesh that has an inappropriately high or low prim cost, drop it on Runitai Linden.
[12:31]	Bellahyae Enchanted	i was wondering the answer to that question myself
[12:31]	Monster LagGroup (eddi.decosta)	/me poke Nyx ㋡
[12:31]	arton Rotaru	don't drop to low
[12:31]	arton Rotaru	lol
[12:31]	arton Rotaru	I wish I had such
[12:32]	Drongle McMahon	Runitai will get buried!!!
[12:32]	Latif Khalifa	lol
[12:32]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	lol
[12:32]	Tapple Gao	I heard every mesh was too expensive
[12:32]	Charlar Linden	please do
[12:32]	Nyx Linden	too much test content is a problem we'd love to have :D
[12:32]	Charlar Linden	next item:
[12:32]	Charlar Linden	Can you please update us on recent progress and tell us what your current priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:32]	Eata Kitty	What happened to the nice bit that told you the vert count of your selection, is that third line up where it says KTris the same thing
[12:32]	arton Rotaru	as I said before, we need some time to adjust our meshes
[12:32]	Nyx Linden	and we need some time to adjust our formulas :D
[12:33]	arton Rotaru	adds up
[12:33]	Charlar Linden	that's our current priority
[12:33]	Nyx Linden	recent progress: we rolled out the new asset format!
[12:33]	arton Rotaru	like prims
[12:33]	Nyx Linden	make sure you update your viewers and re-upload your content!
[12:33]	Drongle McMahon	You also broke some of my sculpties!
[12:33]	Gaia Clary	so all sandboxes are updated now ?
[12:33]	Nyx Linden	if you get any failed uploads, file a jira and attach the collada files
[12:33]	Nyx Linden	all sandboxes should be updated.
[12:33]	Latif Khalifa	Nyx, does viewer crash count as failed upload? :P
[12:34]	arton Rotaru	can we have one sandbox with the old format
[12:34]	Gaia Clary	is this the currently newest viewer: http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/mesh-development/latest.html
[12:34]	Charlar Linden	just because we're already talking about it:
[12:34]	Charlar Linden	Is there anything in particular you need us to focus our testing on? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:34]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Getting to the right viewer from the wiki page seems to be aproblem
[12:34]	arton Rotaru	to rezz old meshes to pull out scripts?
[12:34]	Nyx Linden	Latif: for this purpose yes :)
[12:34]	Dahlia Trimble	are all regions working with the new format?
[12:34]	Dahlia Trimble	on aditi?
[12:34]	Latif Khalifa	I have a couple of .dae that do that reliably
[12:34]	Nyx Linden	all regions should be on the new format
[12:34]	Nyx Linden	what would help us most: Build LOTS of content and leave it out in the sandboxes.
[12:34]	Drongle McMahon	Yes...lots of newcommers pick up the Feruary viewer
[12:34]	Artisan Gearhead	is this the right viewer? Second Life 2.7.3 (232686)
[12:35]	Gaia Clary	i see 232686 is out ...
[12:35]	TheBlack Box	Second Life 2.7.3 (232686) Jun 11 2011 22:23:19 (Project Viewer - Mesh) ... yes i think is the recent one
[12:35]	Gearsawe Stonecutter	I was able to rez in some old non mesh sim then do an area select to select the invisble object
[12:35]	Nyx Linden	the more content in-world there is the better we can make our cost algorithms
[12:35]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	232749
[12:35]	arton Rotaru	hey ok cool, I'll try that gearsawe
[12:36]	Gaia Clary	thats what i meant ... umm grabbed the wrong line
[12:36]	Drongle McMahon	Nytx, when you borrow our content, can you get the lod triangle counts from it?
[12:36]	Eata Kitty	The wiki needs to make it a bit more obvious where to find the development viewer, the information is there but it still talks about the old stable build which was removed
[12:36]	Nyx Linden	we can definitely get the filesize of each LOD which is a decent approximation of triangle count. We can read triangle count if we download each LOD
[12:36]	Artisan Gearhead	yes I upgraded an hour ago and had a hard time finding the viewer
[12:36]	Nyx Linden	we should have removed the old stable build. If its still there we'll clean that up :)
[12:36]	Ann Otoole	yup. stuff uploaded in MAD works here
[12:37]	Gaia Clary	i think we could clean up the wiki by ourself ?
[12:37]	Kayleigh McMillan	same here hard to find the latest viewer
[12:37]	Ann Otoole	these which viewer questions are agenda item #16 btw
[12:37]	Vivienne Daguerre	Good. I am concerned about the streaming cost being the end prim cost. For example, this table shows as 4 prims, which is acceptable. The streaming cost is 11. That would not be. If 11 is the final number, I will remake it using sculpties.
[12:37]	Charlar Linden	we'll look into how to make it more obvious
[12:37]	Vivienne Daguerre	in the end, people care about the prim count, and we will not be able to teach them any different.
[12:38]	Ann Otoole	yea we will when they want to upload and it costs L$1000 lmao
[12:38]	Vivienne Daguerre	The cooking hearth shows as 14 prims, which I think is great. The streaming cost is 29 prims, which is not so great.
[12:38]	Drongle McMahon	Vivienne.... and that's small. Iy gets much worse for bigger meshes, irrespective of lower vLODs
[12:38]	Vivienne Daguerre	nods
[12:39]	Vivienne Daguerre	mesh is nicer, I prefer mesh, but I have to make what my customers will buy
[12:39]	Gearsawe Stonecutter	and script will not increase cost???
[12:39]	Latif Khalifa	yeah, scale really makes mesh too expensive
[12:39]	arton Rotaru	that's horrible, that the lowest LOD is ignored for meshes > 5m
[12:39]	Drongle McMahon	Nyx....please make sure your test use some big mesh onjects.
[12:39]	arton Rotaru	lowest LOD will kick in on those early enough
[12:39]	Charlar Linden	ok, we should keep going...
[12:39]	Nyx Linden	Drongle: leave some big mesh objects rezzed in the mesh regions so we can see them :)
[12:39]	Gaia Clary	Drongles jira gives a cool solution to the big meshes cost much problem...
[12:40]	Charlar Linden	In the recent and current mesh viewer, when I enable lighting and shadow my screen goes black. I can see things like the minimap and hovertext above my avatar, but HUD textures are messed up. I am using 2 ATI 5870 video cards in my Alienware laptop. Anyone else having this problem? The development viewer works just fine for me. Should I file a jira or are you aware of this issue? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:40]	Drongle McMahon	Mesh City, Nyx
[12:40]	Nyx Linden	Please file a jira. We'll dig into this soon :)
[12:40]	Nyx Linden	Drongle: yep we're going to keep an eye on mesh city
[12:40]	Charlar Linden	this one too:
[12:40]	Charlar Linden	the black screen appears on my screen also when i set full screen (30). When i make it smaller, the scene reappears. [Gaia]
[12:40]	Vivienne Daguerre	I will file a jira then on my black screen problem
[12:40]	Nyx Linden	thanks!
[12:41]	Vivienne Daguerre	Even when I am not in full window, I get the black screen when I enable light and shadow
[12:41]	Gaia Clary	vivienne i can comment then on your jira, maybe that makes more sense than create 2 separate ones ?
[12:41]	Tapple Gao	how do you get rez permission to mesh city?
[12:41]	Charlar Linden	ok, next one:
[12:41]	Charlar Linden	Why are slm files binary ? And does it make sense to get a generateable XML file instead to prepare for easy (scripted) support from 3D editors? See [CTS-634] [Gaia]
[12:41]	Vivienne Daguerre	if you would like to file Gaia, I can comment on yours
[12:41]	Latif Khalifa	bribe nyx with some wd-40 :P
[12:41]	Vivienne Daguerre	I have not had much experience with jiras
[12:42]	Gaia Clary	i can do it
[12:42]	Tapple Gao	what is a slm file?
[12:42]	Gearsawe Stonecutter	Right now on low prim item if you add a script to them the prim cost goes up this does not make much sense.
[12:42]	Vivienne Daguerre	/me smiles...
[12:42]	Vivienne Daguerre	thank you
[12:42]	Nyx Linden	they're binary because its easier to store pre-computed values for the various pieces (physics) than to store the parameters that generate them
[12:42]	Dahlia Trimble	I tried to upload in mesh city the other day and the dialogs looked like it was letting me do it but nothing ever showed up in my inventory
[12:42]	Nyx Linden	Gearsawe: please add separate topics to the agenda :)
[12:42]	Gaia Clary	but it would be realy awesome to have the possibility to generate them...
[12:42]	Object	Hello, Avatar!
[12:43]	Nyx Linden	Dahlia - sounds like a silent failure. Please file a jira. We hope to have better error reporting soon
[12:43]	Latif Khalifa	Dahlia, you have to watch debug console in the viewer, as there is no notification when mesh fails
[12:43]	Dahlia Trimble	Hello Object!
[12:43]	Charlar Linden	ok, several more to go...
[12:43]	Charlar Linden	Is there documentation in laymen's terms yet? [Eleanora Newell]
[12:43]	Gaia Clary	is your answer: they keep binary and no XML input will ever be supported ?
[12:44]	Nyx Linden	Gaia: that would be a feature request, probably not for initial release.
[12:44]	Tapple Gao	what is slm file?
[12:44]	Gaia Clary	well, it is a feature request... ;-)
[12:44]	Nyx Linden	all feature requests should have JIRA issues associated with them :D
[12:45]	Gaia Clary	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-634
[12:45]	Gaia Clary	;-)
[12:45]	Charlar Linden	we're working on documentation that will be more oriented toward artists than engineers, but I think we're going to lean on our expert users (you all) for tutorials and like. We're not going to get too involved in the point where the pipeline hits the the 3d program.
[12:45]	Charlar Linden	Too many variables at that point
[12:45]	Charlar Linden	related agenda item: Is there a repository of videos on mesh techniques? I know Gaia is working on some thngs? I am looking specifically for information on offsetting bones for avatars that are micro and not human. [Eleanora Newell]
[12:46]	Dahlia Trimble	is there any documentation on the format of the data used to describe convex hulls in the mesh asset?
[12:46]	Bellahyae Enchanted	will there be any links to great mesh tutorials for maya and other 3d programs givin?
[12:46]	Tapple Gao	oh elenora. talk to me about that. I've gotten that working somewhat, as you may notice if you could see me
[12:47]	Eleanora Newell	thanks, tapple
[12:47]	Charlar Linden	Bellahyae - you should look to the forums, hopefully these folks will start posting links.
[12:47]	Gaia Clary	me too please ;-) id like to know about tiny and non human avatar ,esh rigging... what is special... and where totake care and such ;-)
[12:47]	Bellahyae Enchanted	thanks, i'll take a look hopes ^_^
[12:47]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	They said they will have a tutorial section for users when it is all done Bella
[12:47]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	What program do you use Bella?
[12:47]	Charlar Linden	true
[12:48]	Bellahyae Enchanted	i use maya 2011
[12:48]	Bellahyae Enchanted	and thats great news. i was not sure where to go to learn it all
[12:48]	arton Rotaru	nice proggie
[12:48]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Ah, sorry can't help with that one. But there is a maya best practice thread
[12:48]	Tapple Gao	I've made a blend file that is able to export a rigged quad mesh and bvh files for it
[12:48]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	(don t upgrade your FBX to 2012 :B stick to FBX 2011 )
[12:48]	Charlar Linden	OK, next?
[12:48]	TheBlack Box	extra question (10 bonus-points for the right answer): how can i make sure the sim "Skyhighatry Designs" on main-grid is included in the first batch of mesh-test-sims ?
[12:48]	Charlar Linden	Is there a matrix of what actually last known to be working build download works on which beta region?
[12:49]	Gaia Clary	theblack box: file a support ticket to be added to the mesh beta server program...
[12:49]	Nyx Linden	changes daily - any documentation we have on working combinations will probably get out of date. We're back to a single viewer repository, and the same asset format to all regions, so it should be less confusing now
[12:50]	arton Rotaru	No more MAD viewers ^^
[12:50]	Nyx Linden	use the latest viewer against any sandbox region and when you see combinations that break, let us know :)
[12:50]	TheBlack Box	Gaia: thanks ... but you dont get the bonus-pont as the right answer would have been: "We will care about it dont worry: ;)
[12:50]	Charlar Linden	next:
[12:50]	Charlar Linden	Recently Richard Linden marked http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2242 as "fixed" but provided no information. Is this mesh related, or do I need to bug Andrew and Simon about it tomorrow to see if they have an answer? -Stickman 12:14, 13 June 2011 (PDT)
[12:51]	Gaia Clary	btw we already have setup "Mesh Mellows" on the main grid ;-)
[12:51]	Stickman	Hi.
[12:51]	Charlar Linden	Go bug them tomorrow
[12:51]	Kayleigh McMillan	lol
[12:51]	Stickman	Thanks. :>
[12:51]	Nyx Linden	2242 is not related to the mesh team, so go directly to the source :)
[12:51]	Gaia Clary	hoping to get added to the beta program too
[12:51]	Charlar Linden	:-)
[12:51]	TheBlack Box	:)
[12:51]	arton Rotaru	to many happy people in here ^^
[12:52]	Charlar Linden	and what looks like the last one...
[12:52]	Charlar Linden	What's PRIM TEST on Mesh City 2...Can see old meshes from outside but they disappear from inside...can't delete them.[Drongle]
[12:52]	Nyx Linden	haven't had the time to look into it yet unfortunately :/
[12:53]	Charlar Linden	ok, that's everything on the agenda
[12:53]	arton Rotaru	that's it?
[12:54]	Charlar Linden	we have a few minutes left in the time alloted
[12:54]	Drongle McMahon	You can clean my stuff out of it if you like.
[12:54]	Dahlia Trimble	the mesh Nyx bear didnt make it on the agenda? :(
[12:54]	Latif Khalifa	Nyx, what about removing texture coords from mesh physics?
[12:55]	Gaia Clary	Nyx, is there anything we can do beyond trying to get added to the mesh beta server program list ? so we can have more confidence to get started early ?
[12:55]	TheBlack Box	+1 !
[12:55]	Drongle McMahon	You can make collada files without UV info and they upload, even as LOD meshes!. They look strange.
[12:55]	Nyx Linden	haven't looked at it - I'm not an expert on the specifics of our asset format
[12:56]	Tapple Gao	hmm. everything I've uploaded has no uv. I havn't tried texturing yet, obviously
[12:56]	Gearsawe Stonecutter	just looks like an object with repeats set to 0.0
[12:56]	Drongle McMahon	...But I suppose there are still all zeroes in the asset.
[12:56]	Ann Otoole	interestingly i can rez a mesh from the 4 MAD regions here and fly around. But i cannot cross from MAD regions to these regions flying.
[12:56]	Latif Khalifa	Drongle, I noticed when I uploaded mesh truck from the sample conent wiki that physics mesh also uploads UV. /methinks srubbing that off would save some streaming cost
[12:56]	Gaia Clary	vivienne: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-636
[12:57]	Cyphien Heart	Where can we get information on the SL avatar rig (not the mesh). Rotation point coords, axis and such?
[12:57]	Vivienne Daguerre	I emailed Oskar Linden about getting my sims onto the release beta channels, hoping to get mesh early on roll out, and his response was that he could add me, but he thought that mesh will be rolled out to the whole grid at one time rather than in increments. Is he right, or is he just not up on your plans?
[12:57]	Dahlia Trimble	I dont think the physics mesh gets streamed does it?
[12:57]	Charlar Linden	Gaia, the rollout will be managed very carefully, but we're going to try to move as quickly as possible so there's little advantage to getting it at the beginning.
[12:57]	Kitteh Scientist	.... so. i need psychiatric help. i think i m going even more crazy, i see these boomerang shapes all over. Im lil bit afraid of that giant white boomerang that keeps vawing violently
[12:57]	Latif Khalifa	i think stream cost is grant total byte size of the mesh asset
[12:57]	Dahlia Trimble	would be cool if it did, could do some viewer side collisions
[12:58]	Tapple Gao	cyphen: I'd recommend copying it from the avatar.blend or simplebot.blend files on the wiki
[12:58]	Latif Khalifa	Dahlia, it is streamed
[12:58]	Tapple Gao	if you are using blender
[12:58]	Rex Cronon	u just need to updated your viewer. and your graphics card, and your cpu, and motherboard...
[12:58]	arton Rotaru	that's bad kitten
[12:58]	Charlar Linden	Oskar is up to date - it's a semantic thing. We will be enabling mesh rather than rolling code out.
[12:58]	Rex Cronon	:)
[12:58]	arton Rotaru	think more of triangles
[12:58]	Cyphien Heart	Not using blender
[12:59]	Vivienne Daguerre	thank you
[12:59]	Tapple Gao	maybe your program can import the simplebot.dae file then
[12:59]	Charlar Linden	ok, wait, maybe I'm confused about the rollout. I'll check with Oskar.
[12:59]	Prep Linden	gotta run, see you folks next week.
[12:59]	Kitteh Scientist	couple weeks ago i saw triangles everywhere, the giant white triangle was eqally spooky
[12:59]	Tapple Gao	with the rig
[12:59]	Rex Cronon	tc
[12:59]	Gaia Clary	cant you import a dae file which contains the rig to any other program ?
[12:59]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	thx
[12:59]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Later Prep
[12:59]	TheBlack Box	take care, thans for the OH
[12:59]	Rex Cronon	tc everybody
[12:59]	TheBlack Box	thanks even
[12:59]	Latif Khalifa	thank you
[13:00]	Bellahyae Enchanted	have a good day
[13:00]	Dahlia Trimble	ty :)
[13:00]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	the Mayans thank you
[13:00]	Tapple Gao	collada import is buggier than export, at leasn on blender
[13:00]	arton Rotaru	bye All, I'm late too.
[13:00]	Eleanora Newell	thanks, everyone
[13:00]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Adios Arton
[13:00]	TheBlack Box	i wonder if the world will end when Maya 2012 gets released
[13:00]	arton Rotaru	be back later tonight
[13:00]	Drongle McMahon	OK.I'm off to fill a sim with meshes....
[13:00]	Vivienne Daguerre	Stew's ready!
[13:01]	Vivienne Daguerre	grins
[13:01]	Tapple Gao	where do you find a sim to fill
[13:01]	Charlar Linden	thanks all!

Generated by the 'Wikify SL Chat Log' utility by DG Products for Second Life (DGP4SL)

Mesh/Archive/2011-06-13

Contents

Agenda

Meeting Notes

Attendees List

Transcript for Monday June 13, 2011

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