Mesh/Archive/2012-06-25

Agenda

1. Can Linden provide any feedback/knowledge concerning a method of mesh clothing upload which circumvents the use of the existing mesh clothing deformer yet provides similar (if not the same) functionality? For background, a known full-perm clothing merchant recently made available an article of clothing which conforms to changes in av slider values. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POwQE10sxGg&feature=player_embedded )They claim the item does not use Qarl's mesh clothing deformer but decline to discuss the method being used behind the object creation. Speculation is that a hack is being done to .dae files in order to get this to work. If this is the case, is this a method of content creation which designers should or should not make use of at this time? Aki Shichiroji
2. Any mesh item must provide 21 dedicated bone weight groups (see below), otherwise the SL Importer does not accept the item. However these weight groups can be empty. What is the reason for having this constraint? If this constraint does not exist, then where can i find an example .dae file which shows how to import a mesh with less than the following list of bone weight groups ?
   • mHead, mNeck, mCollarRight, mCollarLeft, mShoulderRight, mShoulderLeft
   • mElbowRight, mElbowLeft, mWristRight, mWristLeft, mChest, mTorso
   • mPelvis, mHipRight, mHipLeft, mKneeRight, mKneeLeft
   • mAnkleRight, mAnkleLeft, mFootRight, mFootLeft
   • Gaia Clary 01:48, 25 June 2012 (PDT)
3. For Mesh items with textures the SL Importer sometimes does not recognize the textures. In particular when a mesh contains weights and "weights" is enabled in the previewer, then the textures disappear instantly in the preview window and they do not get uploaded. Is this on purpose or is this a bug ? If this is not a bug but a wrong collada input, then where can i find an example .dae that allows to import textures along with a rigged mesh. Gaia Clary 01:33, 25 June 2012 (PDT)
4. I found that the SL Importer recognizes a rigged mesh by checking for a <controller> node in the collada file. It does not care about the scene description in that case. This implies that if we provide a full scene description that does no harm to the import. Is this correct ? Gaia Clary 01:56, 25 June 2012 (PDT)

Meeting Notes

Attendees List

• Alexxis DeCuir (alexxis.decuir)
• Anouk Spot (anouk.spot)
• Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
• Cracked Mirror (cracked.mirror)
• Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron)
• Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)
• Damien (damien.fate)
• Darling Monday (darling.monday)
• √ÑlveKatt (davido.chrome)
• Dawnde Lane (dawnde.lane)
• Draconis Neurocam (draconis.neurocam) (User's Wiki Page)
• DrFran Babcock (drfran.babcock)
• Eboni (eboni.khan)
• Elie Spot (elie.spot)
• Gaia Clary (gaia.clary)
• Geenz Spad (geenz.spad)
• Jin Elfan (jin.elfan)
• Kesiika Markova (kesiika.markova)
• Lindsay Pinelli (lindsay.pinelli)
• l o z‚Ñ¢ (loz.hyde)
• Meraud (meraud)
• MeshMaker (meshmaker)
• moo Money (moo.money) (User's Wiki Page)
• Mouse Puppets (mouse.puppets)
• Nyx Linden (nyx.linden) (User's Wiki Page)
• Oz Linden (oz.linden) (User's Wiki Page)
• Quenemue Cyberstar (quenemue.cyberstar)
• Raz Welles (raz.welles)
• RedPoly Inventor (redpoly.inventor)
• Casanova Frankenstein (roblem.hogarth)
• Ross Myhre (ross.myhre)
• sachi Vixen (sachi.vixen)
• Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)
• Second Life (second.life)
• Siddean Munro (siddean.munro)
• SteelsAmanyt Stringer (steelsamanyt.stringer)
• .s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz)
• SySy Chapman (sysy.chapman)
• Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
• Tyr Rozenblum (tyr.rozenblum)
• Yukio Ida (yukio.ida)
• Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)
• ZlatanBLK Djannovic (zlatanblk.djannovic)

Transcript for Monday June 25, 2012

[12:01]	Nyx Linden	looks like we got popular :)
[12:01]	Siddean Munro	Hi Nyx :)
[12:01]	SySy Chapman	just a bit
[12:01]	Siddean Munro	and hi again Oz!
[12:01]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	A teeny bit
[12:01]	Tyr Rozenblum	howdy nyx
[12:01]	ZlatanBLK Djannovic	Hi
[12:01]	Tyr Rozenblum	howdy oz
[12:01]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	Hey Nyx and Oz!
[12:02]	RedPoly Inventor	hello Oz
[12:02]	SySy Chapman	"this is my first time meeting lindens and all i see is grey avatars". hmpf. LMOA
[12:02]	Siddean Munro	I don't dare move my camera cos I'll crash
[12:02]	sachi Vixen	Hey Nyx, we all came for your bear
[12:02]	Cracked Mirror	is nyx giving free hugs after the meeting
[12:02]	Cracked Mirror	cause that's why we're all here obv
[12:02]	Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron)	I thought sachi said beer at first @_@
[12:03]	Tyr Rozenblum	nyx brings fantastic beer
[12:03]	Nyx Linden	ok if everyone doesn't mind shifting towards the water, that way we can get some more people on the other side of the region boundary
[12:03]	RedPoly Inventor	okayy
[12:03]	Siddean Munro	eek ok
[12:03]	Second Life	Can't reposition -- permission denied
[12:03]	SySy Chapman	ohhhh slowly. slooooowly
[12:03]	Tyr Rozenblum	going to just climb on someones back
[12:03]	ZlatanBLK Djannovic	lol
[12:04]	RedPoly Inventor	shouts: on the platform or near the water ?
[12:04]	Damien (damien.fate)	Well that was fun
[12:04]	moo Money	clearly this is a cleverly devised way to get some of us to crash
[12:04]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	this is the creepiest thing I've seen in SL
[12:04]	.s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz)	am not moving i think i'm crashing
[12:04]	SySy Chapman	lmfao
[12:04]	Siddean Munro	whew made it
[12:04]	Alexxis DeCuir	i cant see the platform
[12:04]	Alexxis DeCuir	just everyone floating on the water
[12:04]	Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron)	how do we see prims again
[12:05]	Alexxis DeCuir	control shift alt 9
[12:05]	DrFran Babcock	sorry if I crushed anyoe
[12:05]	Alexxis DeCuir	same combo :D
[12:05]	ZlatanBLK Djannovic	ahah alexxis
[12:05]	Elie Spot	yw!!
[12:05]	Elie Spot	suetabulous and siddean did you get the invite too?
[12:05]	Alexxis DeCuir	shush zlatan
[12:05]	Elie Spot	did i miss anyone?
[12:05]	Alexxis DeCuir	i couldnt see the platform!
[12:05]	Alexxis DeCuir	lmao
[12:05]	.s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz)	just got it thanks elie!!
[12:05]	ZlatanBLK Djannovic	haha
[12:05]	Darling Monday	I still didn't get one :P
[12:05]	Elie Spot	<3!
[12:05]	Yukio Ida	still need inv
[12:05]	SySy Chapman	uh oh
[12:05]	Yukio Ida	:3
[12:05]	Nyx Linden	Greetings all, thanks for coming out. we'll get started in another minute
[12:06]	RedPoly Inventor	group hug!
[12:06]	Ross Myhre	SL's finest, ... gathered on a plywood platform
[12:06]	Nyx Linden	the agenda for today is here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group we'll try our best to get through it all, but please be patient as there are many more of you than there are lindens :)
[12:06]	Tiberious Neruda	...I haven't seen a meeting this crowded in ages
[12:07]	Nyx Linden	/me makes a mental note to have a backup plaform for larger meetings
[12:07]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Server user group has had 80+ a couple of months ago.
[12:07]	RedPoly Inventor	wow
[12:07]	RedPoly Inventor	such love for .. servers..
[12:07]	Raz Welles	Why is there so many people today o_o
[12:07]	Tiberious Neruda	what's caused increased participation?
[12:07]	RedPoly Inventor	:)))
[12:07]	Raz Welles	I htought today was jst a regular meeting
[12:07]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	It was actually an angry mob. xP
[12:07]	RedPoly Inventor	haha
[12:07]	Raz Welles	oh angry mob, got it
[12:07]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Would cause less confusion if you align the other platform with the sim border. XD
[12:07]	Raz Welles	/me hands out ye olde pitchforks
[12:07]	Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron)	phew
[12:08]	Tyr Rozenblum	o.o none of us are angry
[12:08]	Geenz Spad	it's a regular meeting with a bit of show and tell it seems
[12:08]	DrFran Babcock	storm the barricades!
[12:08]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	No-ones angry. I want to be here cause I make mesh and it's important to me. :)
[12:08]	sachi Vixen	I brought my pitchfork
[12:08]	Tyr Rozenblum	we're all actually pretty excited to be quite honest.
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	alright all, sorry for the confusion, I didn't have a chance to prepare a better platform.
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	shall we get started?
[12:08]	Raz Welles	Excited for what
[12:08]	Siddean Munro	all good with me
[12:08]	Tyr Rozenblum	you'll see.
[12:08]	Raz Welles	oki
[12:08]	RedPoly Inventor	i can't move.. brilliant :))
[12:08]	Kesiika Markova	ok I am headed to the horizon ..
[12:09]	RedPoly Inventor	test
[12:09]	Raz Welles	might have to leave soon :(
[12:09]	Cracked Mirror	can you come a little closer to the center nyx so we can all hear
[12:09]	sachi Vixen	Oz Linden for president!
[12:09]	Nyx Linden	topic 1: "Can Linden provide any feedback/knowledge concerning a method of mesh clothing upload which circumvents the use of the existing mesh clothing deformer yet provides similar (if not the same) functionality? For background, a known full-perm clothing merchant recently made available an article of clothing which conforms to changes in av slider values. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POwQE10sxGg&feature=player_embedded )They claim the item does not use Qarl's mesh clothing deformer but decline to discuss the method being used behind the object creation. Speculation is that a hack is being done to .dae files in order to get this to work. If this is the case, is this a method of content creation which designers should or should not make use of at this time? Aki Shichiroji"
[12:09]	Koli Melune (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Borrowdale looks like it's on the verge of crashing...
[12:09]	sachi Vixen	.
[12:10]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	You mean other then the ones that actually move stretch bones?
[12:10]	Elie Spot	yes
[12:10]	Elie Spot	body fat
[12:10]	Elie Spot	belly
[12:10]	Elie Spot	butt
[12:10]	Elie Spot	etc
[12:12]	Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron)	oh then it's a ghost
[12:12]	moo Money	he's like a little teddy bear
[12:12]	Lindsay Pinelli	that one is full so I guess here?
[12:12]	DrFran Babcock	I see gray people
[12:12]	moo Money	half under the platform
[12:12]	Nyx Linden	hrm, difficult to move around here. can everyone hear me?
[12:12]	Cracked Mirror	he's ghosted
[12:12]	Damien (damien.fate)	lol
[12:12]	Tiberious Neruda	I can
[12:12]	.s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz)	i can
[12:12]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	I can
[12:13]	SteelsAmanyt Stringer	read yeah
[12:13]	RedPoly Inventor	i think i'm back..
[12:13]	Anouk Spot	welcome back
[12:13]	Tyr Rozenblum	wb sir
[12:13]	Elie Spot	wb! <3
[12:13]	Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron)	actually hear or read
[12:13]	Alexxis DeCuir	welcome back :D
[12:13]	RedPoly Inventor	are we started ?
[12:13]	Dawnde Lane	WELLCOME BACK!!! I MISS YOU
[12:13]	RedPoly Inventor	omg !
[12:13]	RedPoly Inventor	hug me!
[12:13]	RedPoly Inventor	NOW!
[12:14]	Meraud	ty!
[12:14]	Alexxis DeCuir	i see your text nyx.. but i dont see you haha
[12:14]	Lindsay Pinelli	/me hugs you xD
[12:14]	Raz Welles	everyone is gray goo now
[12:14]	RedPoly Inventor	:P
[12:14]	Alexxis DeCuir	and i dont hear anything at all
[12:14]	Darling Monday	finally got back in lol
[12:14]	Raz Welles	should I relog
[12:14]	Geenz Spad	give it one more minute I suppose?
[12:14]	Geenz Spad	it's probably a bad idea to relog
[12:14]	Raz Welles	ok
[12:15]	Nyx Linden	so with regards to this particular topic, I first saw this new technique this morning, I have not personally had a chance to look into it in any detail
[12:15]	RedPoly Inventor	i'm here for that :)
[12:15]	Geenz Spad	my guess is it's a rigging trick
[12:15]	RedPoly Inventor	to explain in detail
[12:15]	Alexxis DeCuir	id love to know
[12:15]	RedPoly Inventor	what and how
[12:15]	Gaia Clary	all ears :)
[12:15]	Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron)	yes please
[12:15]	Nyx Linden	RedPoly, you have the floor, please enlighten us :)
[12:16]	RedPoly Inventor	ouch..
[12:16]	RedPoly Inventor	:))
[12:16]	RedPoly Inventor	okay
[12:16]	Oz Linden	how about everyone but RedPoly sit down and we'll all listen for a bit?
[12:16]	Anouk Spot	good idea
[12:16]	RedPoly Inventor	the trick is to use the collision volumes for the rigging part
[12:16]	Geenz Spad	Ctrl + Alt + S for the win
[12:16]	RedPoly Inventor	they where designed to scale and move with the morphs
[12:16]	RedPoly Inventor	in order to cover them
[12:17]	RedPoly Inventor	i assume used for physics some time
[12:17]	RedPoly Inventor	the problem with them
[12:17]	RedPoly Inventor	for the rigger
[12:17]	Geenz Spad	collision volumes? you mean the additional bones that are seemingly unused?
[12:17]	RedPoly Inventor	is that they have special rotation, size , and position
[12:17]	Gaia Clary	what are collision volumes ?
[12:17]	RedPoly Inventor	all listed in the avatar_skeleton.xml
[12:17]	RedPoly Inventor	show collision volume on the viewer
[12:17]	Raz Welles	Can they be affected with .anim too?
[12:17]	RedPoly Inventor	wear alpha
[12:17]	RedPoly Inventor	and change ur shape
[12:18]	Anouk Spot	maybe let him speak first :S
[12:18]	Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron)	yes lol
[12:18]	Raz Welles	sorry ^^;
[12:18]	RedPoly Inventor	u will see them scale up , and move
[12:18]	Kesiika Markova	Please, leave him explain and he will answer at the end :))
[12:18]	RedPoly Inventor	they move and scale in a very specific way
[12:18]	RedPoly Inventor	all listend in avatar_lad.xml
[12:18]	Geenz Spad	figured it was something along those lines, though I didn't know that they could actually scale
[12:18]	RedPoly Inventor	each appiriance slider
[12:18]	RedPoly Inventor	triggers
[12:18]	RedPoly Inventor	not only morphs , but volume morphs too
[12:19]	RedPoly Inventor	so all good but there are tons of problems and downs , let me explain
[12:19]	RedPoly Inventor	1st. u need new skeleton linked to the mBones , created based on the avatar_skeleton
[12:20]	RedPoly Inventor	2. u need to have this movement simulated in ur software of choice
[12:20]	RedPoly Inventor	avatar morph + volume movement/scale
[12:20]	RedPoly Inventor	this is where Gaia comes in
[12:20]	Gaia Clary	oh?
[12:20]	Raz Welles	:D
[12:20]	RedPoly Inventor	coding :)
[12:20]	RedPoly Inventor	without this u will work blind
[12:20]	RedPoly Inventor	completly
[12:21]	RedPoly Inventor	basicaly u have big control of the deformation
[12:21]	RedPoly Inventor	because u actually control it with ur rigging
[12:21]	RedPoly Inventor	but .. they are limmits
[12:21]	RedPoly Inventor	for example 100% fat moves the belly down
[12:21]	RedPoly Inventor	the collision volumes can't cover this completely
[12:22]	RedPoly Inventor	so ur weighting needs to be offceded
[12:22]	RedPoly Inventor	the line between nice deform and entering the body when moves
[12:22]	RedPoly Inventor	is very thin
[12:22]	RedPoly Inventor	the movement in the avatar lad are in parent space
[12:22]	RedPoly Inventor	parent bone
[12:22]	RedPoly Inventor	this is important for those who will create the simulation
[12:23]	RedPoly Inventor	i have another proposal based on this
[12:23]	RedPoly Inventor	which will work much better
[12:23]	RedPoly Inventor	i'm talking about new set of bones
[12:23]	RedPoly Inventor	like to call them cBones
[12:23]	RedPoly Inventor	they will be linked to the mBones
[12:23]	RedPoly Inventor	0 rotation , 1.00 scale
[12:24]	RedPoly Inventor	but sliders in the LAD file will
[12:24]	RedPoly Inventor	trigger movement , improved one
[12:24]	RedPoly Inventor	and scaling
[12:24]	RedPoly Inventor	because with collision , the belly part is very very problematic
[12:24]	RedPoly Inventor	many clothing models can't be made to work with it
[12:24]	RedPoly Inventor	u need to hide it big time with alphas
[12:24]	RedPoly Inventor	my initial tests on the cBones idea indicate
[12:25]	RedPoly Inventor	that we will need second torso
[12:25]	RedPoly Inventor	to cover 100% fat at the back
[12:25]	RedPoly Inventor	and the bell
[12:25]	RedPoly Inventor	belly*
[12:25]	RedPoly Inventor	we will need 2 bones for the breasts
[12:25]	Mouse Puppets	Click me to toggle the animation on/off
[12:25]	RedPoly Inventor	and probably 1 or 2 for the butt
[12:25]	RedPoly Inventor	some of the bones , mBones are already
[12:25]	RedPoly Inventor	scaleable
[12:26]	RedPoly Inventor	like mHead , mHands etc
[12:26]	RedPoly Inventor	so they don't need to be cBones
[12:26]	RedPoly Inventor	the control over the deformation will be big
[12:26]	RedPoly Inventor	and those will be animateable
[12:26]	RedPoly Inventor	which can be very benefitial
[12:26]	RedPoly Inventor	collision volumes are solution , but a very limited one
[12:27]	RedPoly Inventor	and it triples weighting time
[12:27]	RedPoly Inventor	and without a programed sumulation system it's almost imposible to work with
[12:27]	Tyr Rozenblum	if this was RL, i'd be buying you a beer right about now.
[12:27]	Geenz Spad	it's a hack that uses unused bones in the skeleton, and the workflow sounds like it's far from an ideal solution
[12:27]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	lol
[12:27]	Nyx Linden	sounds interesting, and very challenging
[12:28]	RedPoly Inventor	Nyx the cool part is
[12:28]	DrFran Babcock	would a new LInden skeleton help, RedPoly?
[12:28]	Tiberious Neruda	...you mentioned these are collision volumes... could this be used later to improve avatar collisions?
[12:28]	RedPoly Inventor	patching this is .. plain text :)
[12:28]	RedPoly Inventor	all can work on it
[12:28]	RedPoly Inventor	perfecting it
[12:28]	Elie Spot	^!
[12:28]	RedPoly Inventor	avatar_lad
[12:28]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	That's fantastic!
[12:28]	RedPoly Inventor	skeleton.xml
[12:28]	Geenz Spad	Tiberious: don't count it
[12:28]	RedPoly Inventor	that's all
[12:28]	Anouk Spot	that's awesome
[12:28]	Geenz Spad	the bones using it are if anything used to detect where you've touched something AFAIK
[12:28]	RedPoly Inventor	we need to find the offseting and the scale that will cover 100% fat
[12:28]	Cracked Mirror	sounds extremely difficult
[12:29]	RedPoly Inventor	and we are done
[12:29]	Siddean Munro	Geenz, can we get an answer from the Lindens please?
[12:29]	Elie Spot	yes please
[12:29]	Tiberious Neruda	oh... you mean the parts that show up when you do Show Collision Skeleton?
[12:29]	RedPoly Inventor	yes
[12:29]	Kesiika Markova	yeap
[12:29]	Tyr Rozenblum	geenz, shhhh and come sit by momma
[12:29]	RedPoly Inventor	this are collision volumes
[12:29]	RedPoly Inventor	put and alpha
[12:29]	RedPoly Inventor	change ur shape
[12:29]	RedPoly Inventor	100% fat
[12:29]	Nyx Linden	so sounds like there are two different discussions here: 1) the viability of using the existing collision volumes for weighting, and the drawbacks there, and 2) the proposal to add more 'cbones" that would track the morph params more accurately than the current collision volumes. Correct?
[12:29]	RedPoly Inventor	u will see the movement and scale
[12:29]	Tiberious Neruda	you mean we can actually move and change those too?
[12:29]	RedPoly Inventor	yes
[12:30]	Raz Welles	How does this solution compare against Qarl's mesh deformer?
[12:30]	Raz Welles	/me is curious
[12:30]	RedPoly Inventor	my expiriance shows that collision bones are very limited and hard to predict
[12:30]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Would this be easier than adding a shape ley morph feature?
[12:30]	Damien (damien.fate)	From what I've seen, the deformation from RedPoly's version is nicer
[12:30]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Would this be easier than adding a shape key morph feature?*
[12:30]	RedPoly Inventor	cBones will move and scale better
[12:30]	Elie Spot	agree w/ damien, much smoother on RedPoly's garment
[12:30]	RedPoly Inventor	Damien controlled by the skinning :)
[12:30]	Tiberious Neruda	Raz: I think what he's saying is the real solution is already here, and that the deformer is, well, unnecessary
[12:30]	RedPoly Inventor	or by the user :)
[12:30]	Siddean Munro	/me would like to control how my models deform
[12:30]	Geenz Spad	biggest problem would be sorting out a work flow
[12:31]	Elie Spot	agree w/ siddean
[12:31]	Cracked Mirror	ok my opinion on this is that no time should be devoted to this by LL unless it poses a security risk and the focus should be on the deformer which is obviously a much better solution
[12:31]	Nyx Linden	in the youtube video, did you use just the current collision volumes, or did you use modifications to our xml files as well?
[12:31]	Damien (damien.fate)	You could with this, Siddean
[12:31]	RedPoly Inventor	Nyx collision volumes
[12:31]	Elie Spot	^^ yes
[12:31]	Damien (damien.fate)	since you paint the weights to the cBones
[12:31]	Elie Spot	i think thats what sid is saying, redpoly's solution is preferred
[12:31]	Elie Spot	as far as control
[12:31]	RedPoly Inventor	second torso is a must for the cBones
[12:31]	Gaia Clary	How do we access the collsiion volumes from insode our 3D tools ?
[12:31]	RedPoly Inventor	2 breast and at least 1 butt nones
[12:31]	RedPoly Inventor	too
[12:32]	RedPoly Inventor	Gaia they are nones
[12:32]	RedPoly Inventor	check the avatar_skeleton
[12:32]	RedPoly Inventor	u need to mimic same hierarchy
[12:32]	Gaia Clary	can you give an example ?
[12:32]	Gaia Clary	name ?
[12:32]	RedPoly Inventor	<bone name="mPelvis" pos="0.000 0.000 1.067" rot="0.000000 0.000000 0.000000" scale="1.000 1.000 1.000" pivot="0.000000 0.000000 1.067015">
[12:32]	RedPoly Inventor	so PELVIS is linked to the mPelvis
[12:32]	RedPoly Inventor	but notice the SCALE
[12:32]	Gaia Clary	ah!!
[12:32]	RedPoly Inventor	need to be compensated
[12:32]	RedPoly Inventor	it's not 1!
[12:33]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Is this the same volumes Prep Linden talked about way back?
[12:33]	RedPoly Inventor	rotation and position too
[12:33]	RedPoly Inventor	yep..
[12:33]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Ah ok. I'm with you now.
[12:33]	RedPoly Inventor	collision volumes , attachments , hud position == bones
[12:33]	Gaia Clary	Ok, we are going to work on a solution :)
[12:33]	RedPoly Inventor	all of them
[12:33]	RedPoly Inventor	..
[12:33]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	I remember he was working on a solution using collisions before.
[12:34]	Tiberious Neruda	that's why we could animate attachment points and rig to them as if they were bones, right?
[12:34]	RedPoly Inventor	i told him..
[12:34]	RedPoly Inventor	november 2011..
[12:34]	RedPoly Inventor	he worked .. and that was it ..
[12:34]	Damien (damien.fate)	Yes Tiberius
[12:34]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	He did get samples from me and some other I think. But, never heard the verdict.
[12:34]	RedPoly Inventor	i thought he didn't like it
[12:35]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Yea, he never said either way.
[12:35]	Tiberious Neruda	so really, what we need is for the importer to accept weighting groups with spaces in their names
[12:35]	Gaia Clary	YES!!!!!!
[12:35]	RedPoly Inventor	the cool part is , something i know lindens like
[12:35]	RedPoly Inventor	no new sliders
[12:35]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	lol
[12:35]	Elie Spot	^
[12:35]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Yes
[12:35]	Tyr Rozenblum	\o/
[12:35]	RedPoly Inventor	we can use old ones :)
[12:35]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	Yay!
[12:35]	Siddean Munro	fine with me :)
[12:35]	Casanova Frankenstein (roblem.hogarth)	lol yup
[12:35]	RedPoly Inventor	ooo i forgot , collision volumes DON"T deform any breast slider
[12:35]	RedPoly Inventor	!
[12:35]	Damien (damien.fate)	It seems like implementation of your proposal wouldn't really affect any existing content either, which is nice.
[12:36]	Geenz Spad	so the real question is I think, how can the workflow be perfected?
[12:36]	Gaia Clary	LIndens, we even have a patch for you for the weighting groups with spaces ....
[12:36]	sachi Vixen	Well Linden Lab, look how smart your community is?!
[12:36]	RedPoly Inventor	for me the cBones is the ultimate solution
[12:36]	Geenz Spad	because from the sounds of it, the existing workflow is pretty tedious
[12:36]	Gaia Clary	and we talked with prep about that 6 months ago
[12:36]	Tyr Rozenblum	im pretty in awe at the moment
[12:36]	Nyx Linden	there are definitely some large drawbacks to the method, but the potential results look impressive. I'd like to separate the discussion of the current solution from the proposed feature request of cbones for now
[12:36]	Elie Spot	^ RedPoly is genius imho
[12:36]	Anouk Spot	exactly, im so impressed, you guys are amazing
[12:37]	RedPoly Inventor	np Nyx
[12:37]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	I'm in awe, RedPoly.
[12:37]	Damien (damien.fate)	I'd rather triple rigging time with cBones than provide 5 sizes plus one deformer code size.
[12:37]	Siddean Munro	^same
[12:37]	Elie Spot	^^ agreed damien
[12:37]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Agreed Damien
[12:37]	Tyr Rozenblum	agreed
[12:37]	Kesiika Markova	who wouldn't .. :)))
[12:37]	Casanova Frankenstein (roblem.hogarth)	for real
[12:37]	RedPoly Inventor	yep , viva cBones
[12:37]	Nyx Linden	RedPoly - could we get a copy of your models to evaluate with some internal tools?
[12:37]	Siddean Munro	sizes is even more tedious because they still don't accommodate everyone
[12:37]	Elie Spot	VIVA CBONES
[12:37]	Yukio Ida	this really sounds like a complicated learning curb with an extra coding program for people who don't quite understand this.. so.. how is the overal usability of this workflow matching up to a built in deformer or can it be adapted?
[12:37]	Gaia Clary	and what if we would supply an automatic weighting ?
[12:37]	RedPoly Inventor	collision volimes will rise many questions , and hair pulling
[12:37]	RedPoly Inventor	trust me ...
[12:37]	Tiberious Neruda	and if I could get the collision volumes to match my shapes, I'm for it too
[12:38]	Damien (damien.fate)	Yukio, that is just the current way that RedPoly did it, he needed to do coding to make it work with the way the collision points are now
[12:38]	RedPoly Inventor	yes the coding part is tricky
[12:38]	Tiberious Neruda	you'll notice that the camera doesn't catch on the av itself, but raher is collision volumes
[12:38]	Damien (damien.fate)	the cBones is an extra proposal to bypass the coding
[12:38]	Cracked Mirror	but is this a viable alternative to the deformer? Is that what were talking about... or just a hack to hold us over until the deformer arrives
[12:38]	Nyx Linden	redpoly - also if you could submit a proposal for your feature request, to let us know exactly what it involves so we can evaluate it, that would be appreciated
[12:38]	RedPoly Inventor	yes , they will mostly scale
[12:38]	Geenz Spad	Cracked: I'd classify this more as a hack
[12:39]	Geenz Spad	a very interesting one though
[12:39]	Tiberious Neruda	Geenz, I don't understand how you'd thinkt hat
[12:39]	RedPoly Inventor	i have no clue how to do that , but will investigate :)
[12:39]	RedPoly Inventor	thanks Nyx
[12:39]	RedPoly Inventor	Nyx the best part is .. community can make it :)
[12:39]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Not sure why you'd call it a hack Geenz
[12:39]	RedPoly Inventor	with nice organization :)
[12:39]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Redpoly, can people without a patched viewer see these deforms?
[12:39]	Nyx Linden	I can sync up with you offline, to make sure we're looking at the same thing
[12:39]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	It seems more like a workaround than a hack.
[12:39]	Siddean Munro	I see them in the current SL viewer
[12:39]	RedPoly Inventor	Davido yes , every viewer have collision volumes
[12:39]	RedPoly Inventor	1.12 too
[12:39]	RedPoly Inventor	:))
[12:40]	RedPoly Inventor	they are very very old
[12:40]	RedPoly Inventor	Nyx great
[12:40]	Nyx Linden	This is something we're doing to have to spend some time looking into to see how viable of a workflow it is. We have a number of old topics, any objection to moving on for this week?
[12:40]	Tyr Rozenblum	poly i sent you beer, thank you so much for today.
[12:40]	RedPoly Inventor	Tyr thanks! :)
[12:40]	Tyr Rozenblum	you and your team
[12:40]	SySy Chapman	don't make him drunk now!
[12:40]	Geenz Spad	I can assist in putting one together, but really, this is basically using parts of the avatar that weren't really intended for this sort of thing
[12:40]	Cracked Mirror	thank you red we realllyy appreciate this :)
[12:40]	DrFran Babcock	this was very generous of you.
[12:40]	Kesiika Markova	:) np
[12:41]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Thanks for investigating that Red
[12:41]	Damien (damien.fate)	It's called innovation :) great work RedPoly
[12:41]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	I think this is a very positive step for the community as a whole.
[12:41]	Siddean Munro	Thanks Redpoly!
[12:41]	RedPoly Inventor	np ;)
[12:41]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	So basically you weight it to the collision volume bones instead of the regular rig?
[12:41]	Tiberious Neruda	that might be, Geenz, but why should there be extra coding in the client for the deformer when there's already soemthing that does the same thing?
[12:41]	Elie Spot	ty so much redpoly
[12:41]	Anouk Spot	Redpoly for avatar of year!
[12:41]	RedPoly Inventor	thanks !
[12:41]	Tyr Rozenblum	geenz need you to turn your frown upside down and bring a little sunshine, this is a positive step, and exciting to say the least. Thank you again guys.
[12:41]	Anouk Spot	thanks so much for sharing your knowledge
[12:41]	Geenz Spad	Tiberious: workflow much?
[12:41]	sachi Vixen	I want a bear :(
[12:41]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Redpoly, So basically you weight it to the collision volume bones instead of the regular rig?
[12:41]	Siddean Munro	and this "unimportant" topic almost filled 2 sims
[12:41]	Draconis Neurocam	geenz most of sl is built on things that were used for something no where near their original intention
[12:42]	Elie Spot	^^ what siddean said
[12:42]	RedPoly Inventor	Davido basicaly yes
[12:42]	Geenz Spad	I mean, if the workflow could be made easier, or otherwise replaced with an official viewer, it wouldn't be so bad
[12:42]	Elie Spot	^^ what draconis said
[12:42]	Tiberious Neruda	you rig to another set of bones
[12:42]	SySy Chapman	this sounds like its well worth to learn
[12:42]	Elie Spot	^^ agreed sysy
[12:42]	Darling Monday	whispers: yes thank you for sharing! :)
[12:42]	Geenz Spad	but generally speaking, we shouldn't need to keep tacking things on using functionality that could potentially break later
[12:42]	SySy Chapman	we ALL want to get rid of the sizing issues this is amazing then
[12:42]	Darling Monday	apparently i needed to whisper that
[12:42]	Elie Spot	haha darling <#
[12:42]	Elie Spot	<33
[12:42]	Lindsay Pinelli	this makes me want to learn to make mesh clothes even more
[12:43]	Geenz Spad	that's really more my point above all else
[12:43]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Sizing is an albatross around designers necks.
[12:43]	Elie Spot	yes
[12:43]	Draconis Neurocam	geenz that is the other great thing about sl, never being able to break legacy content, no matter how annoying it is
[12:43]	SySy Chapman	LOL asha
[12:43]	Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron)	I think a video of your workflow would help a lot of people Red
[12:43]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	This still won't solve what the deformer is meant to solve though? Because rigged clothing would scale with rigged body and you would still need alphas?
[12:43]	Nyx Linden	ok, I'll be syncing up with RedPoly offline to get more detail and investigate the different options there are here, I'm definitely happy to see such interest in new techniques
[12:43]	Tyr Rozenblum	thanks nyx!
[12:43]	Siddean Munro	Geenz, I get that this isn't a priority to you, but it is to a lot of other people and all we want is an open dialog with the Lab about how to work around it!
[12:43]	SySy Chapman	awesome!
[12:43]	Elie Spot	alphas are np, for covering small glitches...
[12:44]	Siddean Munro	now we have it!
[12:44]	Nyx Linden	can we move on to other topics for now?
[12:44]	Siddean Munro	thank you Lab guys :)
[12:44]	Tyr Rozenblum	yes!
[12:44]	Siddean Munro	yes!
[12:44]	Tyr Rozenblum	(to nyx)
[12:44]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	You'll need alphas regardless for some outfits.
[12:44]	Ross Myhre	I don't think th ediscussion is Red's current workflow, but more how it can be expanded upon for future use. i.e his cBones suggestion
[12:44]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	Yep!
[12:44]	Geenz Spad	Siddean, you can stop twisting my words, kthx :)
[12:44]	Jin Elfan	lol
[12:44]	Elie Spot	thanks for allowing this discussion Nyx <3 seriously appreciated!
[12:44]	Nyx Linden	next topic: "Any mesh item must provide 21 dedicated bone weight groups (see below), otherwise the SL Importer does not accept the item. However these weight groups can be empty. What is the reason for having this constraint? If this constraint does not exist, then where can i find an example .dae file which shows how to import a mesh with less than the following list of bone weight groups ?
[12:44]	Yukio Ida	i agree with geens. i have avoided making mesh clothing because of the sizing issues, and i've like many others have been waiting for the deformer. I do hope though that there is a possibility to make this more functionable :x that';s all i gotta say *hushes*
[12:45]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Didn't Redpoly just answer that? XD
[12:45]	Nyx Linden	no its a completely separate question actually :)
[12:46]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	My, this is confusing. XD
[12:46]	Nyx Linden	I'm trying to get a hold of other avatar skeleton experts internally but I believe we had some difficulty with some bugs surrounding "partially" rigged meshes (without defined bones for the whole skeleton)
[12:47]	Gaia Clary	yes, but the point is... the weight groups can be empty.
[12:47]	Nyx Linden	as stated in the topic, you can have the bones defined, just keep the weight groups empty, and the mesh will import
[12:47]	Raz Welles	Well if we're gonna throw more bones into the avatar xml, can we ask for extra bones for general purposes to tide us over until custom armatures :P
[12:47]	Gaia Clary	so why doesnt the importer just create the missing weight groups ????
[12:48]	Raz Welles	/me figured it wouldn't hurt to ask while the topic is hot
[12:48]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	/me snorts
[12:48]	Raz Welles	:}
[12:48]	Gaia Clary	that would help many many many usres i believe
[12:49]	Tiberious Neruda	Raz: if you mean finger bones, I'm down for that
[12:49]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	A good portion of the file issues I help people with steam from those missing empty groups. So, it would help if the importer could catch that and add them.
[12:49]	.s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz)	i'm not sure if this helps but the kirsten viewer which is now not in distribution anymore, used to allow imports of "partially rigged mesh"
[12:49]	Raz Welles	sure, finger bones, face bones, hair bones, creepy eye monster bones whateverbones you want :3
[12:50]	Tiberious Neruda	I mean the standardized bones
[12:50]	Gaia Clary	btw... we had versions of the importer that just didi THAT
[12:50]	Nyx Linden	Is there a JIRA for this topic?
[12:50]	Siddean Munro	face, fingers, toes tyvm :p
[12:50]	Gaia Clary	for a while it worked one day, but not the other day.
[12:50]	Raz Welles	siddean: hehe
[12:50]	Gaia Clary	Nyx there have benn tons og jiras for this topic...
[12:50]	Gaia Clary	been tons of...
[12:50]	Gaia Clary	:)
[12:50]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Right
[12:51]	Tiberious Neruda	unless you're planning on making some kind of ape avatar, toes are less improtant than fingers, IMO
[12:51]	Eboni (eboni.khan)	if there are so many just paste one, there are so many frivilous JIRAs it is hard to keep track of the legit ones
[12:51]	Nyx Linden	I need to contact a few other lindens to get the technical details on this one - could you email me the relevant jira numbers and I'll try to have a more complete answer next week?
[12:52]	Gaia Clary	i can go and look them up sure.
[12:52]	Tiberious Neruda	me, I'd love a chain of about 8 we can rig to that would act like a flexiprim
[12:53]	Nyx Linden	thanks, I'll try to recall to make a note to carry this topic over to next week for followup
[12:53]	Quenemue Cyberstar	i've been away from SL for few months so im not perfectly sure about where we are at. Im hoping that someday we could have completely custom joint chains for our avatars
[12:53]	Siddean Munro	Tiberious, I have plenty of customers who would like wiggling toes :)
[12:53]	Tiberious Neruda	at the expense of perma-fists?
[12:53]	Nyx Linden	next topic: "For Mesh items with textures the SL Importer sometimes does not recognize the textures. In particular when a mesh contains weights and "weights" is enabled in the previewer, then the textures disappear instantly in the preview window and they do not get uploaded. Is this on purpose or is this a bug ? If this is not a bug but a wrong collada input, then where can i find an example .dae that allows to import textures along with a rigged mesh. Gaia Clary 01:33, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[12:54]	Nyx Linden	sounds like a bug to me :)
[12:54]	.s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz)	i've never succesfully uploaded a mesh with texture...neither have many of the designers i know
[12:54]	.s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz)	just saying..
[12:54]	.s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz)	lol
[12:54]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	I'd really love to know this, it'd be much better for workflow if it allowed the textures to load in with the .dae
[12:54]	Gaia Clary	this bug exists since a year
[12:54]	Cracked Mirror	yep I've never been able to upload a texture with a mesh either lol this is new to me
[12:54]	SySy Chapman	dito sue
[12:54]	Tiberious Neruda	I usually just don't bother with it
[12:54]	Ross Myhre	I always assumed the Textures box was simply to allow for multiple textures on one mesh and DIDN'T import the textures themselves o.O
[12:55]	Lindsay Pinelli	I haven't tried to. i make them separately
[12:55]	Nyx Linden	the intent is that you should be able to include textures in the upload of the .dae.
[12:55]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	Any .dae's I've tried to upload with textures on also tend to give the dreaded Mav_block_missing error too
[12:55]	Gaia Clary	that works perfectly for static meshes.
[12:55]	Ross Myhre	I tick the box if my mesh has multiple materials, but NEVER get or expect to get a textured mesh on upload
[12:56]	Gaia Clary	Blender 2.64 will provide an export mode which guarantees that you can import static meshes with textures.
[12:56]	l o z‚Ñ¢ (loz.hyde)	I never have too
[12:56]	.s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz)	a nice ok time to upgrade
[12:56]	Gaia Clary	and it would be awesome to also support rigged meshes with textures.
[12:56]	Nyx Linden	If you get me links to the relevant jira issues, I'll make a note that these are still causing content creators extra time to have to work around
[12:57]	Gaia Clary	again ok, i can look them up :)
[12:57]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	The rigged version is missing a material block that is in the static one when you export a dae file from Blender.
[12:58]	Nyx Linden	interesting - example .dae files would definitely help!
[12:58]	Gaia Clary	Asha, also on blender 2.64 ?
[12:58]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	The last time I compared dae files was back in 2.5 I think. I haven't checked with the latest build.
[12:59]	Gaia Clary	with the latest build you can import rigged meshes with textzures as long as you do not enable with weights ...
[12:59]	Gaia Clary	:(
[12:59]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Hmmm..... o.O
[12:59]	Gaia Clary	and i guess i know exactly where the SL importer fails even :)
[12:59]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	I'll have to give the new ones a looksie.
[13:00]	Gaia Clary	Maybe i create a new Jira for this. might help to get it fixed faster :)
[13:00]	.s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz)	lol
[13:00]	Nyx Linden	any clarity you can provide would be appreciated :)
[13:00]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	I'll vote on that JIRA! :D
[13:01]	l o z‚Ñ¢ (loz.hyde)	great
[13:01]	l o z‚Ñ¢ (loz.hyde)	thank you
[13:02]	Nyx Linden	unfortunately we're almost out of time, so we'll do one more topic this week and carry the rest over to next week
[13:02]	Nyx Linden	next topic: "I found that the SL Importer recognizes a rigged mesh by checking for a <controller> node in the collada file. It does not care about the scene description in that case. This implies that if we provide a full scene description that does no harm to the import. Is this correct ? Gaia Clary 01:56, 25 June 2012 (PDT)"
[13:03]	Gaia Clary	I am almost sure that we can do it. But it would be great to hear from Lindens side that its actually OK to do it :)
[13:04]	Gaia Clary	reason: only supplying a <controller> has been identified as bad collada file, at least as very non standard.
[13:04]	Nyx Linden	once you specify that you're uploading a rigged mesh, the importer only looks at the data that is actually rigged to the avatar mesh, the rest should be ignored
[13:04]	Gaia Clary	but that is what Blender does since 2.49.
[13:04]	Nyx Linden	assuming that there isn't malformed xml or other basic parsing issues
[13:05]	Gaia Clary	ok, then we can do it as intended. thanks!
[13:06]	Gaia Clary	Well that was a very exciting meeting today :)
[13:06]	Nyx Linden	alright everyone, thanks for coming out this week! I'll carry over the rest of the topics for next week :)
[13:06]	Gaia Clary	ok
[13:06]	Kesiika Markova	great :)
[13:07]	Anouk Spot	thanks Nyx
[13:07]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	I'm looking forward to coming to future meetings too, I'm really interested in the future of mesh :)
[13:07]	Siddean Munro	thanks Nyx!
[13:07]	Cyclic Gearz-Bellamy (cyclic.gearz)	Thanks Nyx :D
[13:07]	Crash Uladstron (crashov.uladstron)	ty
[13:07]	RedPoly Inventor	thanks Nyx!
[13:07]	.s.u.e.t.a.b.u.l.o.u.s. (suetabulous.yootz)	thanks for your time
[13:07]	Siddean Munro	worth staying up for ^_^
[13:07]	MeshMaker	ty!
[13:07]	Lindsay Pinelli	thank you Nyx and RedPoly :)
[13:07]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	Thank you Nyx.
[13:07]	Nyx Linden	have a great week everybody!

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