Open Source Meeting/2008-04-03

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Transcript

[14:01] Tree Kyomoon: hi folks
[14:01] Strife Onizuka: hello
[14:01] Carjay McGinnis: Hello Rob
[14:02] Strife Onizuka: i'm sorry about being slow getting back to you about the wiki, i've been not spending time inworld recently ^^;
[14:02] Tree Kyomoon: I'll be posting a transcript of this meeting on the wiki, so consider yourselves warned
[14:02] Tree Kyomoon: no worries, Strife
[14:03] Tree Kyomoon: I think I've got a better grip on the wiki templates
[14:03] Strife Onizuka: the LSL templates are kinda strange
[14:03] Strife Onizuka: hmm not strange, unique
[14:06] Tree Kyomoon: Agenda: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:06] Tree Kyomoon: Light crowd today
[14:06] Strife Onizuka: warn out from Zero's office hour
[14:07] Morgaine Dinova: And then Which's
[14:07] Strife Onizuka: Doesn't Andrew have his on thursdays too?
[14:07] Strife Onizuka: (or am i thinking wensdays?)
[14:08] Tree Kyomoon: not sure
[14:08] Tree Kyomoon: anyway....well, I think we've got everyone we're going to get
[14:08] Tree Kyomoon: I even tried rousing Michelle2 on IRC....no luck
[14:09] Liana Linden: hunh
[14:09] Carjay McGinnis: hm, BTW on which network?
[14:09] Carjay McGinnis: I see references to IRC all over the place but never where
[14:09] Tree Kyomoon: irc.efnet.org
[14:09] Carjay McGinnis: ah, efnet, kay
[14:09] Tree Kyomoon: [1] should redirect to the info
[14:10] Carjay McGinnis: hm, I thought I looked there
[14:10] Carjay McGinnis: ok, thanks
[14:10] Liana Linden: Well, my update relates directly to Michelle2's question.
[14:10] Tree Kyomoon: go for it
[14:11] Liana Linden: Should I kick off the agenda with that?
[14:11] Liana Linden: right
[14:11] Liana Linden: Viewers and trademarks:
[14:11] Tree Kyomoon: (transcript will be posted on wiki.secondlife.com for you latecomers)
[14:12] Liana Linden: There have been some clarifications to our TM policies that don't directly address specific needs of oss developers.
[14:12] Liana Linden: I am actively working on TM guideline clarifications for open source viewers that are in alignment with best practices in open source and also with the rules of TM protection.
[14:12] Liana Linden: As things develop, I'll be sending updates to the sldev list.
[14:13] Liana Linden: For now, if you have a question about your viewer, please send it to licensing@lindenlab.com.
[14:13] Liana Linden: That will help me track whom to send guideline updates to as well as get answers to your specific question.
[14:13] Strife Onizuka: why not post the guideline updates to the corporate mailinglist?
[14:14] Strife Onizuka: (or do i mean biz?)
[14:14] Liana Linden: When the guidlines are finished, they'll be on the website and fully public. But during the development phase, it's often more useful to receive feedback from and have discussion with a smaller group of stakeholders, don't you thing?
[14:14] Liana Linden: /think?
[14:15] Strife Onizuka: nods "good point"
[14:15] Liana Linden: The other licensing thing I just finished was the upgrade of the viewer artwork and slwiki to CC By-SA 3.0 copyright license.
[14:16] Liana Linden: That's it for me.
[14:16] Strife Onizuka: what is the big difference between the 2.5 and 3.0 license?
[14:16] Liana Linden: [2]
[14:16] Rob Linden: doesn't remember....but 2.5 isn't Debian free, and 3.0 is
[14:17] Strife Onizuka: that answer it
[14:17] Opensource Obscure: more compatibility with other copyleft licenses in 3.0 IIRC
[14:17] Liana Linden: Well... Some people at Debian believe v3.0 is DFSG-compatible, some don't.
[14:18] Rob Linden: sighs
[14:18] Liana Linden: Yeah, that's as far as I'm willling to go down that conversational path. ;-)
[14:19] Tree Kyomoon: anyhoo....
[14:19] Michelle2 Zenovka: sorry i'm late
[14:19] Tree Kyomoon: anything else on that topic
[14:19] Tree Kyomoon: Michelle2: no prob...we were just getting through the Linden updates, though Liana's update was apropos to your question
[14:19] Carjay McGinnis: ello Michelle
[14:19] Tree Kyomoon: we'll loop back to that after the other updates
[14:20] Liana Linden: I'll bring Michelle up to speed via IM.
[14:20] Tree Kyomoon: My update: I've done a little sifting through Google SoC applications, and looking at some ways to boost wiki performance
[14:20] Tree Kyomoon: one solution is to stop using SSL so much, but my conversation on #mediawiki on Freenode didn't give me a lot of confidence in that solution
[14:21] Tree Kyomoon: the problem is that http sessions are pretty vulnerable to session hijacking
[14:21] Tree Kyomoon: if you get your hands on the session id, you can basically log into the wiki as that person
[14:21] Strife Onizuka: ewww
[14:22] Tree Kyomoon: fortunately, you can't get their password, so the damage is limited to the wiki, but still
[14:22] Michelle2 Zenovka: is upto date
[14:22] Soft Linden: Would it be unreasonable to lock the session ID to the IP address, given how short our login timeout is anyway?
[14:22] Tree Kyomoon: I asked "isn't this a big problem on Wikipedia then?", and the answer is apparently not
[14:22] Strife Onizuka: my login hardly ever times out
[14:23] Strife Onizuka: i like it that way
[14:23] Soft Linden: Yes, but you hardly ever stop making changes. And we love you for it.
[14:23] Strife Onizuka: point taken
[14:23] Soft Linden: You have to actually not use the wiki/JIRA an hour to get logged out.
[14:23] Tree Kyomoon: Soft: yeah, that would help, assumign we wanted to customize the code
[14:23] Carjay McGinnis: indeed I get logged out all the time
[14:23] Carjay McGinnis: from JIRA that is
[14:23] Soft Linden: I figured that section was already customized for our common login.
[14:23] Strife Onizuka: i think it's longer then an hour... i don't log into the wiki when i get up in the morning
[14:23] Tree Kyomoon: jira is clearly much more agressive about logging people out
[14:24] Strife Onizuka: yes, i sometimes have problems with jira because of it logging me out
[14:24] Carjay McGinnis: well, it's a bit inconvenient
[14:24] Tree Kyomoon: and I think its session cookies are moderately more secure (I think they are tied to IP)
[14:25] Strife Onizuka: (my only gripe with jira is you can't run more then one search at a time)
[14:25] Carjay McGinnis: but understand that security goes over convenience
[14:25] Morgaine Dinova: I get logged out in the middle of writing an update regularly. I guess it depends on the length of the things you write. And sometimes Back button history is then lost, which can be rather annoying.
[14:25] Strife Onizuka: nods
[14:26] Tree Kyomoon: one other update from me: I'm going to be out for a week and a half, so I won't be at next week's meeting
[14:26] Strife Onizuka: nods
[14:26] Tree Kyomoon: anyone else want to give an update (esp Lindens)
[14:26] Tree Kyomoon: ?
[14:27] Tree Kyomoon: Soft, Q, or Enus?
[14:27] Strife Onizuka: Well the next big project on the wiki with scripting is...
[14:27] Strife Onizuka: Newbie Notes
[14:27] Enus Linden: (quiet here)
[14:27] Strife Onizuka: assuming someone wants to write them
[14:28] Strife Onizuka: They get a summary inlined into the article automatically
[14:28] Strife Onizuka: it's the bridge the gap between the technical nature of the articles
[14:29] Q Linden: sorry, got distracted here. I want to put in a wish for GSoC project ideas and candidates.
[14:29] Strife Onizuka: and the new user not being familiar with the technical material
[14:29] Strife Onizuka: yeilds the floor to Q
[14:29] Q Linden: / sorry, strife, thought you were done
[14:30] Tree Kyomoon: Q: yes, good point re: Google SoC. Here's the current idea page: [3]
[14:31] Strife Onizuka: (it's as good a place as any for me to stop or i'll fill the time with stuff thats boring)
[14:31] Q Linden: and one more came up today...maybe working on Eventlet
[14:31] Tree Kyomoon: an idea just occurred to me that directly relates to our next topic: make alternate viewer branding easy
[14:33] Tree Kyomoon: eventlet based stuff would be very cool, too
[14:33] Tree Kyomoon: any other updates Q
[14:34] Morgaine Dinova: Rob: I see that most of those SoC ideas are about sculpties. Is that so by intent (eg. sculpties could free up prims), or "just happened that way"?
[14:34] Tree Kyomoon: Morgaine: just happened that way
[14:34] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, righto
[14:34] Liana Linden: Rob, cool idea. I need to understand more about what it takes on the technical side to replace the TMs.
[14:34] Q Linden: morgaine, I for one don't think we have enough sculpty tools in world
[14:34] Morgaine Dinova: That's true
[14:34] Tree Kyomoon: the sculpties stuff seemed easy to isolate into one-intern/one-summer size projects
[14:35] Tree Kyomoon: I also tried to go with a theme of "integration with other open source projects"
[14:35] IntLibber Brautigan: is the plan to allow inworld editing of nurbs or a more sophisticated sort of scanning of normal prim linksets to make sculpties?
[14:35] Q Linden: uhhh....probably neither?
[14:35] IntLibber Brautigan: lol ok
[14:36] Tree Kyomoon: the rebranding stuff wouldn't fall into that theme, except what made me think of it was another idea that I had, which was "package the viewer for xxx Linux distro"
[14:36] Strife Onizuka: Scanning of linksets to make scultpties is no easy task fyi
[14:36] Q Linden: sculpties != nurbs
[14:36] Q Linden: and linksets...there lies madness
[14:36] Strife Onizuka: twitches nervously
[14:36] IntLibber Brautigan: well the snurbomatic makes it seem easy even if the output of that is a bit lowres
[14:37] Morgaine Dinova: I recall that Seg was asked to submit his OpenAL patches for integration into the official viewer (at a meeting right here, actually) --- did that ever happen?
[14:37] Q Linden: makes a note to try out the snurbomatic
[14:37] Tree Kyomoon: Morgaine: I'm not sure, but I know Soft was tracking that pretty closely. Soft?
[14:39] Tree Kyomoon: hmm....I think we caught Soft napping
[14:39] Carjay McGinnis: he moves
[14:39] Soft Linden: Ack, M2 and I were actually IMing
[14:39] Soft Linden: Reading back
[14:40] Tree Kyomoon: just wondering about OpenAL status
[14:40] OliviaMarie Chantilly: Hi everyone
[14:40] Michelle2 Zenovka: I think we have a blocker on openal
[14:40] Soft Linden: Streaming still needs love post-viewer media. And we talked in a previous meeting about properly abstracting streaming so that this wouldn't repeat.
[14:41] Michelle2 Zenovka: some of us get slight audio distortion and clicks at start of sample play back, i think soft has heard this?
[14:41] Soft Linden: s/viewer media/viewer parcel media/
[14:41] Michelle2 Zenovka: Actualy this dosn't abstract very well
[14:41] Soft Linden: Yes. That really sounds like the buffer and the samples have different center biases. Signed vs unsigned
[14:41] Michelle2 Zenovka: yes agreed but i cant spot it
[14:41] Michelle2 Zenovka: wood and trees and all that
[14:42] Soft Linden: Anyway, it's not ready to integrate, but when streaming is healthy again I'd still like to run it through QA so that they can help us come up wtih a complete list of any blockers for just replacing fmod on Linux at least, hopefully others too.
[14:42] Michelle2 Zenovka: Streaming is fine for me :-)
[14:43] Michelle2 Zenovka: I sub tasked it and created a new patch
[14:43] Soft Linden: Most recent patch has streaming fixed?
[14:43] Michelle2 Zenovka: ack
[14:43] Soft Linden: Was that a surprise, or a signal? :)
[14:44] Soft Linden: I'll apply the current one and see for myself. If streaming is okay, I'll do the QA run and also see if I can spot anything on the apparent sample bias disparity
[14:44] Tree Kyomoon: (a TCP/IP "ack" or a Bill the Cat "ack"?)
[14:44] Michelle2 Zenovka: yes it works again, the patch on the the sub task is running ok on the 1.19.1.X series
[14:44] Soft Linden: awesome!
[14:44] Michelle2 Zenovka: it was trival anyway
[14:45] Michelle2 Zenovka: Can't have my debs slipping now can we ;-) i';ve got over 100 users
[14:45] Morgaine Dinova: I expect that Linux folks would not be too disturbed at audio not being perfect, if it does at least work. I'd be happy :-)
[14:45] Tree Kyomoon: w00t
[14:45] Carjay McGinnis: quite a lot
[14:45] Soft Linden: It's problematic even with fmod for many users. Very odd - stutters like the buffer were only getting half-filled.
[14:46] Soft Linden: If openal turns out to be better on that front, it's certainly a good argument for leading the others on a complete swapout
[14:46] Strife Onizuka: was the slight random noise at client login ever fixed?
[14:46] Carjay McGinnis: hm, i get stuttering sound a lot with fmod, but I think it is due to the viewer taking too much processing time
[14:47] Soft Linden: Not sure I saw the issue for the login noise
[14:47] Soft Linden: Sounds trivial though - probably just an uncleared buffer
[14:47] Carjay McGinnis: hm, never had that
[14:47] Michelle2 Zenovka: I assume its when fmod is initalised
[14:47] Strife Onizuka: i'll check to see if i hear it next time i open the client
[14:47] Strife Onizuka: (Michelle, I think so yes)
[14:47] Soft Linden: This is with fmod, or the openal patch, Strife?
[14:48] Carjay McGinnis: maybe dependent on the hardware?
[14:48] Strife Onizuka: fmod, normal client going back several years
[14:48] Soft Linden: ok
[14:48] Carjay McGinnis: ah, wait, I use fmod4, right
[14:48] Carjay McGinnis: forgot that
[14:48] Strife Onizuka: just one of those bugs you don't really care enough about
[14:48] Strife Onizuka: you being me,
[14:48] Morgaine Dinova: hehe
[14:48] Strife Onizuka: so i never reported it
[14:48] Tree Kyomoon: :)
[14:49] Tree Kyomoon: should we move on to our only non-standing (hopefully) agenda item?
[14:49] Tree Kyomoon: Open source viewers and trademarks, what on earth am I going to call my viewer now? I want to show an association with secondlife as thats the point of my viewer and i want users to be able to actually find it which may be difficult if they are searching for sl** or secondlife*** which are not allowed to be used.
[14:49] Tree Kyomoon: (courtesy Michelle2)
[14:50] Michelle2 Zenovka: Think Liana has delt with that?
[14:50] Michelle2 Zenovka: its a work in progress
[14:50] IntLibber Brautigan: Why restrict your branding to SL? With other grids opening up, the viewer is for much more than just SL
[14:51] Michelle2 Zenovka: Good point, what could i call a viewer that is universal?
[14:51] IntLibber Brautigan: Good question, I'm n ot a marketing whiz.
[14:51] Strife Onizuka: SLCompatible?
[14:51] Michelle2 Zenovka: hmmm
[14:51] Soft Linden: Omnilife.
[14:51] Morgaine Dinova: The problem is that currently there is no name for this hypothetical system of multiple 3rd party grids, otherwise people would use the name of that in the branding :-)
[14:51] Carjay McGinnis: lol
[14:51] Tree Kyomoon: we're looking at how the Second Life Grid brand can be used in this context, but this is still work in progress
[14:52] IntLibber Brautigan: GridLife
[14:52] IntLibber Brautigan: Intergrid Browser
[14:52] Strife Onizuka: Look at how Microsoft deals with this problem
[14:52] Michelle2 Zenovka: yes i think this could be very imporant, this could be come "the name" for the future
[14:52] Soft Linden: Just about anything you can come up with sounds like it would double as an insurance company.
[14:52] IntLibber Brautigan: INtergrid Explorer
[14:52] Carjay McGinnis: and the final version will be called AfterLife
[14:52] IntLibber Brautigan: aka IE !!! ;P
[14:52] Michelle2 Zenovka: already taken
[14:52] Strife Onizuka: aka Windows
[14:52] Soft Linden: "Soft's Place." Ship it.
[14:53] Carjay McGinnis: be careful with calling anything Explorer
[14:53] IntLibber Brautigan: Gridscape
[14:53] Strife Onizuka: hardware and sofware certification
[14:53] Strife Onizuka: and logo programs
[14:53] Carjay McGinnis: SoftLife?
[14:53] Soft Linden: Gridfox.
[14:53] Carjay McGinnis: SecondWeasel
[14:53] Tree Kyomoon: Gridoperafox
[14:53] Michelle2 Zenovka: not allowed to use firfox its iceweasle now!
[14:53] Michelle2 Zenovka: lol carjay
[14:53] IntLibber Brautigan: if your religious call it AfterLife
[14:53] Soft Linden: Gridweasel sounds like a Jeff Minter game.
[14:54] Opensource Obscure: grinks. (grinks2 also shows pictures)
[14:54] Poppy Linden: gridweasel?
[14:54] Tree Kyomoon: I do have to state a beef I have with Debian on this topic.
[14:54] Michelle2 Zenovka: ohhh not this topic again :-)
[14:54] Morgaine Dinova: Is there any actual desire to come up with a name for that future system? If so, make it official, some kind of search or vote for it.
[14:55] Tree Kyomoon: Debian's own trademark doesn't qualify as DFSG free
[14:55] Soft Linden: Debian has two trademarks.
[14:55] Liana Linden: They consider that a "bug".
[14:55] Rob Linden: goes off to create Weasalian Linux
[14:55] Liana Linden: :-P
[14:55] Strife Onizuka: haha
[14:55] Tree Kyomoon: ooops "Weasalian GNU/Linux"
[14:55] Carjay McGinnis: lol
[14:55] Michelle2 Zenovka: they do have as soft said a 2nd tm that is more flexible for others to use
[14:56] Carjay McGinnis: 2 trademarks?
[14:56] Morgaine Dinova: Well I'm not sure how a TM can be compliant with any guidelines for *software*.
[14:56] Carjay McGinnis: for one thing? how is that possible?
[14:56] Tree Kyomoon: what's the other trademark?
[14:56] Poppy Linden: I feel like this is going to turn into a discussion on original sin or something...
[14:56] Morgaine Dinova: Haha
[14:56] Michelle2 Zenovka: err have to look at debian wiki
[14:56] IntLibber Brautigan: only if you mention Apple Poppy
[14:56] Soft Linden: There's a Debian trademark for Debian as distributed by them, and a very similar Debian trademark you can use for your own distros, etc.
[14:56] Michelle2 Zenovka: thanks soft
[14:57] Soft Linden: I don't know if there's a tool to swap it out in the few places it appears or not, though.
[14:57] Carjay McGinnis: ah, ok
[14:57] Michelle2 Zenovka: this kind of sounds like what we need here?
[14:58] Strife Onizuka: ... Anyone have ideas on how we could improve the style of LSL content on the wiki?
[14:58] IntLibber Brautigan: good question
[14:58] Tree Kyomoon: we'll figure something out. we're starting to think it makes sense to have a separate brand for the 100% pure open source version of the viewer anyway
[14:58] Tree Kyomoon: ....and try to unify the efforts around creating that
[14:58] Soft Linden: I'd forgotten. The Debian-endorsed logo is the one with the bottle under the swirl. They don't even really use that one anymore.
[14:59] IntLibber Brautigan: from the time I was a noob, I always felt the lsl wiki was written in a way that it assumed you already had to know lsl in order to navigate the wiki
[14:59] Strife Onizuka: OpenSecondLife
[14:59] Soft Linden: [4]
[14:59] Morgaine Dinova: IntLub: that's references versus tutorials for you. There's room for both, they're different.
[14:59] IntLibber Brautigan: yes Morgaine
[15:00] Poppy Linden: it's a lot like Rifts.
[15:00] Michelle2 Zenovka: Strife, not compliant with current TM policy :-(
[15:00] Carjay McGinnis: hm, I learned a lot from the comments in the functions
[15:00] Poppy Linden: a big megaverse.
[15:00] Strife Onizuka: is there a TM for OpenLife?
[15:00] Poppy Linden: Megaverse :)
[15:00] Michelle2 Zenovka: there is an openlife project but no idea abot TM
[15:00] IntLibber Brautigan: it was always like you had to know the name of the function you wanted in order to find anything on it, when what I was searching for was to fiigure out which function I needed for a specific task
[15:01] Rob Linden: needs to run
[15:01] Tree Kyomoon: thanks everyone....feel free to keep going here
[15:01] Michelle2 Zenovka: Cheers Rob
[15:01] Opensource Obscure: i have a question about docs and licenses. we (some italian residents) have put some docs about LSL on a italian-language-based wiki. we'd like to copy that stuff into the official wiki too. i wrote most of the stuff so i think it's okay. i also know the other pages authors , and i can contact them and ask if they agree. is this enough ? (not sure i am clear, sorry)
[15:01] Morgaine Dinova: Cheers Rob
[15:01] Carjay McGinnis: thanks, Rob
[15:02] Opensource Obscure: i think it's okay -> i meant 'pages that i personally wrote'. (what about other pages?)
[15:02] Carjay McGinnis: ah, load testing is over
[15:02] Strife Onizuka: As long as the licenses match up or you get explicit permission from the posters you can copy the content to the wiki
[15:02] Michelle2 Zenovka: Opensource, if you can get all contributors to agree then you have no problems
[15:02] Tree Kyomoon: for stuff you personally wrote, it's ok
[15:02] Opensource Obscure: do i need written agreements?
[15:03] Strife Onizuka: just be careful that the stuff hasn't come from the old LSLWiki
[15:03] Tree Kyomoon: the tough part about contributing the other people stuff is that we need the paper trail
[15:03] Liana Linden: gotta go, folks. thanks.
[15:03] Tree Kyomoon: anyway....really going now
[15:03] Opensource Obscure: thanks.

Open Source Meeting/2008-04-03

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