Open Source Meeting/2008-07-03

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[14:01] Rob Linden: hi folks
[14:01] JB Kraft: hey rob :)
[14:01] Carjay McGinnis: Hello Rob
[14:01] Michelle2 Zenovka: hi rob
[14:01] Rob Linden: one of these days, we'll have to use voice for one of these meetings
[14:01] Michelle2 Zenovka: starts to laugh.. voice..linux...64 bit.. haha
[14:01] Carjay McGinnis: why is that?
[14:01] Gigs Taggart: rob you get voice working on ubuntu 8.04 yet?
[14:02] Carjay McGinnis: except for dropping out of a session every once in a while it works ok
[14:02] Rob Linden: I'm reasonably fast typist, but not as fast as I can talk
[14:02] Gigs Taggart: I got it but it was a big hassle
[14:02] Rob Linden: I got it working. it was a hassle, but it's working
[14:02] Carjay McGinnis: but if it happens it's annoying, you have to dis and reconnect twice
[14:02] Carjay McGinnis: also there is an issue with the parser, it crashes on my proc-file
[14:03] Carjay McGinnis: i fixed it by patching the binary but that's probably not a thing for everyone
[14:03] Soft Linden: Hey hey hey
[14:03] Squirrel Wood: Hey Soft
[14:03] Rob Linden: I've been using Ubuntu for just about all of my SL use (which is very voice heavy) for at least a couple of months
[14:03] Scope Cleaver: Hi Soft long time no see
[14:03] Carjay McGinnis: I guess it's 64 bit CPU-proc related
[14:03] Michelle2 Zenovka: I need to invest some more time in to getting it working, the SLVOice blob just hangs for me and does nothing
[14:03] Carjay McGinnis: anyway, there's a JIRA about it
[14:04] Rob Linden: one of these days, I'll get the transcript posted for this meeting and the two meetings prior to this, so...
[14:04] Rob Linden: ....don't say anything you don't want to (one day) show up on wiki.secondlife.com
[14:05] Soft Linden: (Hi mom)
[14:05] Carjay McGinnis: *waves at Softs mom*
[14:05] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Rob :) Hi Soft :)
[14:06] Rob Linden: Let it be heard that the gentleman from Second Life would like to offer greetings to his mother. Secretary, please record that in the minutes.
[14:07] Gigs Taggart: well since we don't have an agenda
[14:07] Rob Linden: note that I'm not in a big hurry to get to the agenda becase we don't really have one
[14:07] Gigs Taggart: Let me put out a call for panelists for my open source track.
[14:07] Gigs Taggart: at SLCC
[14:07] JB Kraft: i have a fish for the soup :)
[14:07] Gigs Taggart: if anyone who is a contributeor to the viewer would like to be on a panel at SLCC in the open source track, IM me.
[14:08] JB Kraft: didnt get a chance to put it on the agenda
[14:08] Rob Linden: Gigs: you have the floor....anything you want to add?
[14:08] Rob Linden: is planning on being there
[14:08] Michelle2 Zenovka: wants one in europe
[14:09] Rob Linden: and Gigs were just discussing the panel prior to this meeting
[14:09] Michelle2 Zenovka: how are you doing so far?
[14:09] Gigs Taggart: Yeah it's been hard to get committments.
[14:09] Gigs Taggart: Well, it's going well I'd say, I am just getting uncomfortable since it's only 2 months away and I only have a few 100% sure people :)
[14:10] Michelle2 Zenovka: better than some confrences i organise ;-)
[14:10] Gigs Taggart: with plane tickets as expensive as they are, last minute additions will be hard
[14:10] Gigs Taggart: no one will want to pay a 1 week advance fare hehe
[14:12] Gigs Taggart: well anyway if you guys know any contributors that will be at SLCC let me know
[14:13] Rob Linden: btw....I saw some chatter in the "Ubuntu Linux" group chat about getting voice to work under Ubuntu, so I figured I'd bring us back to that topic
[14:13] Gigs Taggart: sure
[14:13] Gigs Taggart: the main issue is pulseaudio
[14:13] Squirrel Wood: not going to the us of a while that bush is still president and while the controls at the airports are as paranoid as they are :p
[14:13] Gigs Taggart: it's broken as hell
[14:13] Gigs Taggart: hehe
[14:14] Carjay McGinnis: Squirrel: it's getting even more paranoid
[14:14] Gigs Taggart: basically I have worked with it a lot lately Rob
[14:14] Gigs Taggart: pulseaudio takes over the device and doesn't share with dmix correctly
[14:15] Gigs Taggart: so that apps like SL and vivox that attempt to use alsa/dmix directly will fail
[14:15] Soft Linden: Which release of Ubuntu are we talking about?
[14:15] Carjay McGinnis: Heron
[14:15] Gigs Taggart: 8.04 has pulseaudio by default
[14:15] Gigs Taggart: ESD is removed
[14:15] Carjay McGinnis: I am still on Gutsy, so things still work
[14:15] Gigs Taggart: in 7.10 pulseaudio is optional
[14:15] Rob Linden: pulseaudio is supposed to have device emulation, but that seems to fail
[14:15] Michelle2 Zenovka: can you wrap it at all?
[14:16] Soft Linden: With 7.10, I had to apt-get install esound. For me, pulseaudio "just works" under 8.04. Hrm.
[14:16] Gigs Taggart: as a related side note, SL with OpenAL patches seems to only try to use /dev/dsp so I guess it's only working with OSS?
[14:16] Michelle2 Zenovka: you can set openal prefs in /etc/openal.rc i think
[14:16] Michelle2 Zenovka: pretty sure mine uses alsa
[14:16] Gigs Taggart: can the app be made to probe?
[14:17] Gigs Taggart: like can we tell alut to try other things from the sl client
[14:17] Rob Linden: whoever is playing the music, please stop
[14:17] Michelle2 Zenovka: i believe there is some probing possible
[14:17] Michelle2 Zenovka: there is a new openal that may be worth switching to
[14:17] Michelle2 Zenovka: openal-soft
[14:17] Gigs Taggart: yes I saw that
[14:17] Gigs Taggart: openal-soft is the new version
[14:17] Gigs Taggart: the old openal isn't maintained anymore
[14:17] Michelle2 Zenovka: much API compatibility
[14:18] Gigs Taggart: yeah should be 100% compatible
[14:18] Michelle2 Zenovka: it supports part of streaming
[14:18] Gigs Taggart: the old openal can stream too
[14:18] Michelle2 Zenovka: really?
[14:18] Gigs Taggart: as long as you can feed it the chunked data decoded to PCM
[14:18] Gigs Taggart: yes that's how you did the wind!
[14:18] Gigs Taggart: you are basically streaming from the software synth
[14:19] Michelle2 Zenovka: ah yea, but i think openal-soft has a network streaming layer to pull from a streaming server
[14:19] Gigs Taggart: oh ok so more direct then
[14:19] Gigs Taggart: cool
[14:19] Michelle2 Zenovka: but you need a decoder
[14:19] Gigs Taggart: yeah
[14:20] Gigs Taggart: soft you say pulseaudio works for you?
[14:20] Gigs Taggart: you don't get vivox disconnecting every minute?
[14:20] Soft Linden: Not to date. It's on a fast multicore machine which could make a difference.
[14:20] Gigs Taggart: I'm on a quad core
[14:21] Soft Linden: I have a fresh install on this machine I can boot over to after this meeting and give it a poke.
[14:21] Gigs Taggart: it disconnects every minute for me
[14:21] Gigs Taggart: hehe
[14:21] Gigs Taggart: I have downgraded to esound now
[14:21] Carjay McGinnis: disconnect as in thrown out or does it reconnect you to an empty session?
[14:21] Gigs Taggart: skype and SL work much better now hehe
[14:21] Carjay McGinnis: the latter happens to me quite often
[14:21] Gigs Taggart: carjay I didn't look at the session but it was every minute almost exacly a minute
[14:21] Gigs Taggart: some kind of timeout maybe
[14:22] Carjay McGinnis: hm, but a strange one, people talk then everything goes silent, I disconnect and reconnect to an empty session
[14:23] Michelle2 Zenovka: i'm missing something, whats the secret to even starting SLVoice?
[14:23] Carjay McGinnis: the SLVoice executable needs to be found by the client
[14:23] Adrian Bohm: the configuration panel Michelle
[14:23] Carjay McGinnis: that and the necessary lib32-compatibility libs
[14:23] Carjay McGinnis: for 64 bit
[14:23] Michelle2 Zenovka: yea, i've got those
[14:24] Michelle2 Zenovka: i got it to *run* but do nothing
[14:24] Rob Linden: where are the best docs for getting voice up and going under Ubuntu?
[14:24] Rob Linden: is this it? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Voice/Linux_Sound_Settings
[14:25] Soft Linden: There should be a linux voice.txt when you unpack the viewer.
[14:25] Gigs Taggart: well for me it wasn't just voice
[14:25] Carjay McGinnis: if it finishes with a std:exception it could be http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-5708 Michelle
[14:25] Gigs Taggart: the viewer itself didn't seem to like pulseaudio much
[14:26] Soft Linden: the page Rob links to is nice. If the txt file doesn't refer to that, it sure should.
[14:26] Soft Linden: makes note to check
[14:26] Michelle2 Zenovka: As usual, i'm trying to do things the difficult way though
[14:26] Rob Linden: cool...well, if there's anything missing off of that wiki page, please add it there
[14:27] Soft Linden: Of course, you run (your distro here comedy option).
[14:27] Rob Linden: we should probably move on.....there's a high overlap of people that use Linux and are generally interested in our viewer open source stuff, but it's not 100%
[14:27] Rob Linden: I'm on yggdrasil
[14:27] Rob Linden: :)
[14:28] JB Kraft: blinks
[14:28] Soft Linden: I spent two years on that <3 I don't look back fondly.
[14:28] Squirrel Wood: anyone tried SL on Yoper yet?
[14:28] Soft Linden: But it did support the Creative Labs soundcard CD-ROM in the default kernel. Whoo!
[14:28] Carjay McGinnis: soundcard CD-ROM?
[14:28] Squirrel Wood: ( http://www.yoper.com/ )
[14:29] Rob Linden: we don't have many nominees for the "Best Influence" category of the Hippos: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1304
[14:29] Soft Linden: Before most CD-ROMs were IDE, there were a slew of odd proprietary interfaces to them. Creative Labs had a popular one that came with most of their sound cards for a while, to help sell Creative Labs brand CD-ROMs.
[14:29] Carjay McGinnis: oh, right, I missed these ancient days of the PC
[14:29] Carjay McGinnis: but saw some weird stuff in the kernel sources
[14:30] Gigs Taggart: you didn't miss much
[14:30] Rob Linden: ^^^ ... but I think there's a lot of deserving nominees for Best Influence (some even sitting here)
[14:30] Gigs Taggart: everything used to be like that.. buy a monitor with a video card matched... buy a scanner with a matching scsi card, hard disk with matching controller, etc
[14:30] Gigs Taggart: it sucked
[14:30] Rob Linden: please get the nominations in before Tuesday!
[14:30] Soft Linden: Keep in mind that people can be nominated for multiple categories. One person can even nominate someone for multiple categories.
[14:31] Rob Linden: yeah, what Soft said
[14:31] Gigs Taggart: I nominate everyone involved with that BSDM viewer
[14:31] Gigs Taggart: because it's funny
[14:31] Gigs Taggart: hehe
[14:31] Rob Linden: sighs
[14:31] Soft Linden: "Log off! Log off now!!!" "I can't!" "Curse you Marine Kelley!!!"
[14:31] Gigs Taggart: heh yeah
[14:32] Gigs Taggart: I just want to hear Rob give the award speech for a bondage developer. :)
[14:32] Rob Linden: slumps into a deep depression
[14:32] Rob Linden: :)
[14:32] Soft Linden: Well, to date none of their contributions have been offered back for inclusion in the main viewer. I think we're pretty safe.
[14:33] Carjay McGinnis: on the topic, I wonder what happened to the Naked Viewer?
[14:33] Gigs Taggart: it was a walking GPL violation
[14:33] Rob Linden: last I heard, we were looking into it
[14:33] Gigs Taggart: hehe
[14:34] Carjay McGinnis: these things usually keep walking for a long time
[14:34] Gigs Taggart: for inclusion in the main viewer right
[14:34] Soft Linden: Maybe Rob could post the last two weeks transcripts, but not this one... o_O
[14:34] Gigs Taggart: haha
[14:34] Gigs Taggart: I guess I'm not the best community influence
[14:34] Rob Linden: I'm with you Soft
[14:34] Rob Linden: :)
[14:34] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, agenda and log wiped clean
[14:34] Squirrel Wood: influence? I influence nuts. they fear me :p
[14:35] Gigs Taggart: oh I have some on topic conversation
[14:35] Soft Linden: At the risk of killing the odd momentum... go for it!
[14:36] Carjay McGinnis: I code under the influence of coffee a lot
[14:36] Gigs Taggart: soft can you give an update on A) merging 1.20 branch to release and B) pushing a release drop on SVN
[14:36] Soft Linden: Release is active on svn again. It's working with the exception of looking for llkdu which isn't currently provided in the release branch.
[14:36] Soft Linden: I don't know the schedule of the next 1.20 merge back to release. If you're eager to have it, I can ask for it. It's definitely been a few weeks.
[14:36] Gigs Taggart: does it include things like the reverted non-dazzle UI and the freeze-fix?
[14:37] Gigs Taggart: I would like to see those in release sometime
[14:37] Soft Linden: Freeze fix is there in the 1.20 branch. Skinning is still under development.
[14:37] Carjay McGinnis: I actually met people yesterday who liked Dazzle, that was odd
[14:37] Carjay McGinnis: are there subliminal messages encoded in the Windows viewers these days?
[14:38] Soft Linden: Yes. They subconsciously encourage people to ask that question.
[14:38] Rob Linden: it tests/surveys way better than all of the hubbub would lead you to believe. the people who don't like it are just very, very vocal abot it
[14:38] Carjay McGinnis: ah, well, I just don't like it when it's dark and the display is a bit distracting
[14:39] Gigs Taggart: Rob: New Coke did VERY well in focus groups.
[14:39] Gigs Taggart: New Coke is a good lesson here.
[14:39] Carjay McGinnis: sure, guess all the screaming leads one to believe that everyone dislikes it
[14:39] Carjay McGinnis: anyway it's a good decision to have it skinnable
[14:39] Gigs Taggart: carjay more than that
[14:39] Carjay McGinnis: guess I will end up leaving Dazule on, lol
[14:39] Fos Dagger: I like Dazzle...
[14:39] Carjay McGinnis: Dazzle
[14:40] Gigs Taggart: if a small minority really hates something then it does influence people that might otherwise like it
[14:40] Gigs Taggart: that's the new coke dynamic
[14:40] Soft Linden: The skinnability decision was already made for 1.21. The only change is that 1.20 is being held for it, so people don't have to stay on 1.19 and wait for 1.21.
[14:40] Carjay McGinnis: but that might destabilize things I guess?
[14:41] Rob Linden: anyway, we're really glad McCabe Maxsted was keeping a classic skin up to date
[14:41] Gigs Taggart: heh
[14:41] Soft Linden: Has anyone nominated McCabe based on that?
[14:41] Gigs Taggart: I don't hate dazzle, but I think it has some contrast issues.
[14:42] Carjay McGinnis: I don't hate it either but thing the same
[14:42] Carjay McGinnis: think
[14:42] Rob Linden: Soft: I think so....I know McCabe got a nomination in at least one category, but I"m not sure if it was "Best Contribution"
[14:42] Gigs Taggart: If I'm not dreaming it did get a little more contrasty since the first release
[14:42] Gigs Taggart: and not as bright
[14:43] Squirrel Wood: Believe it or not: I can use dazzle without my eyes starting to bleed or hurt :p
[14:43] Squirrel Wood: but then again... 1680x1050
[14:43] Soft Linden: By the way - to emphasize this, please *please* do consider nominating people if you haven't already. This is one of those very public open source team pieces. Minimal interest here could easily lead to the conclusion that interest in the entire open source program isn't at a useful scale.
[14:44] Soft Linden: That aside - leaving a good constributor without at least a nomination would be pretty lame. When I looked, one week into nominations, some pretty obvious people had been left off.
[14:44] Rob Linden: both very good points, Soft
[14:46] Rob Linden: Links and description are available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Innovation_Awards
[14:46] Rob Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Innovation_Awards#Categories ...specifically
[14:47] Rob Linden: anything else for us to cover this week?
[14:48] Rob Linden: Dare we hit this list? http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?mode=hide&requestId=11240
[14:48] Rob Linden: we haven't done that in a while
[14:48] Gigs Taggart: not a lot of time left
[14:48] Rob Linden: yeah, probably best to leave that for now
[14:49] Rob Linden: plus, many of us (ok, me) is trying to wrap up for the long weekend in the U.S.
[14:49] Gigs Taggart: hehe
[14:49] Carjay McGinnis: ah, right, 4th of July
[14:50] Squirrel Wood: Oh My.
[14:50] Squirrel Wood: Party!
[14:50] Soft Linden: Gigs, I'm prodding about the Branch_1-20-Viewer-2/ -> release/ merge now.
[14:50] Gigs Taggart: soft: cool
[14:50] Rob Linden: I'll take the 10 minutes that I just bought and actually use it to post transcripts :)
[14:50] Gigs Taggart: yeah branch is getting so much stuff in it that a merge would be prudent at this point
[14:50] Carjay McGinnis: wow, 16 Votes for LL to make a 64 bit viewer
[14:51] Soft Linden: If they launch a QA review on that, I'll push it as soon as it passes. Otherwise, I can ping Steve for the freeze fix checkin and post that as a patch on sldev.
[14:51] Carjay McGinnis: that would be cool
[14:51] Squirrel Wood: stick a 64 bit tag on the 32 bit viewer and 17 of the 16 voters will be happy :p
[14:51] Carjay McGinnis: thanks
[14:51] Gigs Taggart: a patch against release?
[14:51] Carjay McGinnis: not even sure 64 Bit on Windows has a usable Quicktime these days
[14:51] Gigs Taggart: they seem to have a very old ancestor at this point
[14:52] Soft Linden: Gigs
[14:52] Soft Linden: Gigs - apparently the freeze fix is already merged back to release/
[14:52] Gigs Taggart: cool
[14:52] Squirrel Wood: quicktime? no way that thing is ever going to infect my system :p
[14:52] Gigs Taggart: well that's a big one soft, and if release is running on SVN again then that's enough for me for now :P
[14:53] Soft Linden: What's the 64-bit viewer JIRA?
[14:53] Carjay McGinnis: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7716
[14:53] Soft Linden: It is, again - only with the llkdu caveat. I hope to get that fixed rsn
[14:53] Gigs Taggart: getting the full merge in can wait until after the skinning work is done if you want
[14:53] Gigs Taggart: unless you all want to do the sync sooner to make the merge easier
[14:53] Gigs Taggart: like I said the common ancestor is very old at this point :P
[14:53] Soft Linden: That JIRA should be more specific - which platform?
[14:54] Carjay McGinnis: I think it's more about the buzzword "64 bit" than with any real understanding
[14:54] Rob Linden: I want 72 bits. that's 8 more bits
[14:55] Soft Linden: I argued against a 64-bit Linux viewer previously - but after seeing the state of 32-bit library compatibility in some distributions I'd reverse that. I can't see it making sense for Windows or Mac though. There's no real performance gain to be had there.
[14:55] Rob Linden: zomg....a 1000 bit viewer would be so cool
[14:55] Squirrel Wood: BITburger's a beer brand in germany... so if you had 64 BIT's you'd be pretty drunk :p
[14:55] Gigs Taggart: I think the problem is and will remain the closed source parts
[14:55] Soft Linden: I wrote games on the Atari Jaguar. I know that 64-bit is a scary and unhappy place.
[14:56] Carjay McGinnis: ah, ok, for Linux it's of course different, I'm not really sure why people would want 64 bit on windows
[14:56] Gigs Taggart: carjay because windows puts EVERYTHING in the kernel
[14:56] Gigs Taggart: on 32 bit the kernel can only use like 1GB of ram
[14:56] Gigs Taggart: and in windows the kernel does so much stuff
[14:56] Squirrel Wood: 2GB
[14:56] Soft Linden: That's why I don't think that's a useful JIRA. The arguments - and the level of validity for those arguments - would be different on all three platforms.
[14:56] Carjay McGinnis: yes, I know
[14:56] Squirrel Wood: and 3GB when using tricks
[14:56] Carjay McGinnis: I meant "ordinary" people
[14:56] Gigs Taggart: squirrel I thought it was 1 or 2gb
[14:57] Squirrel Wood: 32 bit apps can address 2GB. and with a trick about 3GB
[14:58] Gigs Taggart: squirrel yeah I'm talking about kernel space
[14:58] Carjay McGinnis: split 2/2 usually
[14:58] Gigs Taggart: so the 4gb can be 1/3 or 2/2
[14:58] Squirrel Wood: http://stevenharman.net/blog/archive/2008/04/29/hacking-visual-studio-to-use-more-than-2gigabytes-of-memory.aspx
[14:58] Carjay McGinnis: if you do the 1/3 split some graphics card are getting nervous
[14:58] Carjay McGinnis: we had that problem with some older ATI cards
[14:59] Gigs Taggart: soft there is one argument but it's not strong yet... once computers have like 10GB of ram SL might want to use more for a texture cache :)
[14:59] Soft Linden: I'm on a 64-bit Vista machine right now (and I feel dirty). It's amazing how much better 32-bit compatibility is here than with XP x64. Other than a few driver hacks and virtual ICE tool, everything is working.
[14:59] Soft Linden: Gigs, that's fair, but - minimal return I think.
[14:59] Carjay McGinnis: ah, yeah, will need to play with Vista64 bit a bit, but it's an unhappy environment
[15:00] Soft Linden: The hit rate goes down on a pretty fierce curve on larger caches.
[15:00] Squirrel Wood: I don't mind having to wait 5ms longer for a texture to be fetched from the cache ^^
[15:00] Carjay McGinnis: having to sign your own drivers to use them sounds so weird
[15:00] Gigs Taggart: soft using the existing algorithm?
[15:00] Gigs Taggart: there are better algorithms than the LRU SL uses now
[15:01] Squirrel Wood: some people have traffic limits on their interwebz. they would be very happy about a larger cache that also is utilized.
[15:01] Squirrel Wood: anyway. off to Benjamins hour
[15:01] Soft Linden: Texture cache policy debates become holy wars. I like random replacement in the back half of the cache since LRU is exactly the worst case scenario when there are n+1 items in an an n item cache.
[15:02] Michelle2 Zenovka: out of interest (from about 10 minutea ago) my distribution of 64-32 bits is 74% i386
[15:02] Gigs Taggart: well you are right about the holy war thing, but LRU is almost like the bubble sort of replacement policies
[15:02] Gigs Taggart: it's not optimal for hardly anything
[15:02] Carjay McGinnis: hm, guess it's more natural to use 64 bit on Linux since I didn't notice any differences
[15:03] Soft Linden: Interesting, Michelle2. Do you know what the overall Debian install base looks like in that regard?
[15:03] Soft Linden: I'm wondering if the availability of 64-bit is the main draw for your viewer, or if that's typical of people with a strong free software conviction.
[15:03] Michelle2 Zenovka: i'm looking at around 600 active users, but you could probably tell more if you have logs of connected channels
[15:03] Gigs Taggart: I use 64 bit on servers and 32 bit on desktop because of flash player and such
[15:03] Gigs Taggart: probably a common scenario
[15:03] Carjay McGinnis: you can make flash player work on 64 bit
[15:03] Michelle2 Zenovka: a bet a lot are dual booters and/or run offical clients as well
[15:04] Soft Linden: Sure, most distros include 32-bit Firefox just for plugin issues. Even Vista x64 runs the 32-bit IE by default, I believe.
[15:04] Michelle2 Zenovka: no 64 bit java plugin
[15:04] Soft Linden: Yeah, if you pick 'Internet Explorer," you get 32-bit. You have to pick the one that's specifically marked as 64-bit.
[15:05] Carjay McGinnis: yeah, I remember I was wondering about that when I first saw it
[15:05] Carjay McGinnis: hm, no 64 bit java plug-in?
[15:05] Soft Linden: And then even some of MS' own plugins aren't available.
[15:05] Michelle2 Zenovka: no the only bit of java not open
[15:06] Soft Linden: Thanks for coming, all!
[15:06] Rob Linden: thanks everyone!
[15:06] Harleen Gretzky: ttfn

Open Source Meeting/2008-07-03

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