Open Source Meeting/2010-02-25

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List of Attendees

Transcript

[13:56] Boroondas Gupte: hi all
[13:56] Jacek Antonelli: Hi Boroondas
[13:56] Questar Utu: 'lo.
[13:56] Boroondas Gupte: I hope I look dressed ... SG 2.0 seems a bit unpredictable concerning that.
[13:57] Jacek Antonelli: Boroondas: Only one half of you looks dressed... but I think that's intentional ;)
[13:57] Davy Linden: O RLY?
[13:57] Looloo Beck: are u sleeping?
[13:57] Davy Linden: viewer 2.0? when did that happen?
[13:57] Davy Linden: carrots would be nice. celery sucks
[13:57] sachi Vixen: It didn't happen yet, all we got was a lousy beta ;)
[13:57] Marianne McCann: Do mine too?
[13:57] Marianne McCann: /me grins
[13:57] Marianne McCann: I've only 57k worth of stuff that needs homess
[13:57] Marianne McCann: /me snickers
[13:57] Davy Linden: ack - it's gone 1am
[13:57] Marianne McCann: Gawd, that does sound like her
[13:57] Davy Linden: seeya Blue
[13:57] Ellla McMahon: Have fun everyone .. need to relog .. see you at Triage !!!!! :)))))
[13:57] sachi Vixen: Davy's a Brit
[13:57] Davy Linden: you too
[13:57] Marianne McCann: Bye Bye!!
[13:57] sachi Vixen: night ?
[13:57] Davy Linden: hmm. triage is going to be different next week
[13:57] Marianne McCann: No... really?
[13:57] Davy Linden: like UTTER CHAIS?
[13:57] Davy Linden: CHAOS*
[13:57] Marianne McCann: I guess I should get to work m'self
[13:57] Davy Linden: I think Wednesday and Thursday triages will be starting again soon - not sure exactly when tho
[13:57] Marianne McCann: Ya, the evening crowd
[13:57] Marianne McCann: "OH NOES! IT:S THE END OF ESS ELL!"
[13:57] Boroondas Gupte: /me will go offline to get some sleep
[13:57] Boroondas Gupte: Have fun, folks!
[13:57] Boroondas Gupte: /me waves
[13:57] Davy Linden: bye
[13:57] Marianne McCann: you too!
[13:57] Marianne McCann: See ya'll soon!
[13:57] Marianne McCann: Bye Bye!!
[13:57] Boroondas Gupte: hi all
[13:57] Jacek Antonelli: Hi Boroondas
[13:57] Questar Utu: 'lo.
[13:57] Boroondas Gupte: I hope I look dressed ... SG 2.0 seems a bit unpredictable concerning that.
[13:57] Jacek Antonelli: Boroondas: Only one half of you looks dressed... but I think that's intentional ;)
[13:57] Jonathan Yap: Interesting to hear those Metanomics people talk things over
[13:57] Boroondas Gupte: yeah :-)
[13:58] Ardy Lay: Hmmm ... maybe I should have gone to that.
[13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: there is a LOT of potential for this media on a HUD thing
[13:58] Jonathan Yap: They got very excited about that
[13:59] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, the new media on a prim stuff is the bee's knees
[13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: try downloading seaside and installing as your localhost server: http://www.seaside.st
[13:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: /me isn't touching V2.
[13:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Merov.
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: there are issues, of course. RIght now there's no obvious way to zoom into a webpage, so unless it has been designed for SL, everything is tiny (eensy weensy)
[14:00] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Losts of scheduile conflects with this and SLPro.
[14:00] Merov Linden: hi guys
[14:00] Robin Cornelius: Hey Merov
[14:00] Ardy Lay: Hi Merov
[14:00] Jonathan Yap: Hi Merov
[14:00] Keumjoo Ahn: /me waves and smiles.
[14:00] Robin Cornelius: Have yu recovered from the big push?
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: and of course, I still can't see streaming media via the prim url
[14:01] Jonathan Yap: Merov, I hope you get some extra days off in the future for all the hard work you put in getting SG 2 together
[14:01] Merov Linden: recovered? I crashed at 9pm on the couch yesterday night...
[14:01] Aimee Linden: hellooo
[14:01] Bronson Blackadder: fancy seeing you here Chaley
[14:01] Jacek Antonelli: Hi Aimee :D
[14:01] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[14:01] Chaley May: lol
[14:01] Merov Linden: thanks guys, I feel I'm not quite done though
[14:01] Merov Linden: well, not just a feeling really...
[14:02] Merov Linden: I *know* I'm not quite done
[14:02] Merov Linden: quite a laundry list of ugly stuff I did to reach the milestone to clean up now
[14:02] CG Linden: /me knows you know ㋡
[14:02] Merov Linden: whohoo CG! My hero!
[14:02] CG Linden: no, you're my hero
[14:03] CG Linden: you haven't killed me yet for build.sh ㋡
[14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: so when will viewer 2.0 get its on jira project setting?
[14:03] Merov Linden: Really, without CG shell scripting mastery, I wouldn't have made it
[14:03] Bronson Blackadder: alright group hug
[14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: Ther's only 400+ of them right now in "unscheduled"
[14:03] Robin Cornelius: i gave the SVN a _bit_ of a tickle as well
[14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: 3400 of which 400 are viewer 2 related
[14:04] Robin Cornelius: windows build is just about fine, linux 64 is basicly there with the extra jira patches
[14:04] Merov Linden: Saijanai: I don't know why it's not in PJIRA as a choosable option yet
[14:04] Merov Linden: honestly, I don't manage that bug list
[14:04] Merov Linden: in SNOW though, there is a Snowglobe 2.0 (since a while actually)
[14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Rob is still listed as jira manager
[14:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: /me sees a Nyx.
[14:05] Nyx Linden: just lurking as I hunt wild bugs :)
[14:05] Jacek Antonelli: /me hands Nyx a spear
[14:05] Merov Linden: wild bugs taste better
[14:05] Bronson Blackadder: /me hands Nyx an M249
[14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: be vewwy quiet. I'm hunting wabbits!
[14:06] Merov Linden: /me gets the agenda...
[14:06] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: /me holds Questar close.
[14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: you need an elmer fudd hat for the avie
[14:06] Merov Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda
[14:06] Aimee Linden: /me mutters something quietly which sounds vaguely like "Vivox"
[14:06] Latif Khalifa: what was that -D to cmake that makes it build?
[14:06] Merov Linden: I didn't put that agenda together
[14:06] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Aimee, don't get me started. I ditched ALSA earlier because of that. :|
[14:07] Boroondas Gupte: -DLL_TEST:BOOL=OFF
[14:07] Latif Khalifa: thanks
[14:07] Merov Linden: Thickbrick did
[14:07] Merov Linden: and it sounds good to me so we'll start with the first item
[14:07] Thickbrick Sleaford: I just added the last item
[14:07] ATechwolf Foxclaw: The Unit test preventing me from getting a build the first night. I havn't played with that anymore due to buzy with tpv fallout and SLPro. I hope to do some more testing later tonight.
[14:07] Merov Linden: "Weekly Snowglobe update"
[14:08] Boroondas Gupte: "Weekly Snowglobe update"
[14:08] Thickbrick Sleaford: (forgot to sign...)
[14:08] Boroondas Gupte: oh, should we sign topics we put on the Agenda?
[14:08] Merov Linden: well, not much happen really.... <cough/>
[14:08] Thickbrick Sleaford: heh
[14:08] Merov Linden: okay: I was in hyper mode to get Snowglobe 2.0 out
[14:09] Merov Linden: which is: a first cut of the Viewer 2.0 code base, clean and all for FLOSS consumption
[14:09] Merov Linden: I only had time to merge the "branding"
[14:09] Merov Linden: I therefore put 1.3 on the back burner
[14:10] Merov Linden: but started again yesterday afternoon and indeed committed a fix for SNOW-431 this morning
[14:10] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-431 
[#SNOW-431] Boost downloads for Snowglobe 1.3 aren't really 1.39.0
[14:10] Merov Linden: finally...
[14:10] Merov Linden: I looked in details at Robin fix for SNOW-485
[14:10] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-485 
[#SNOW-485] Deadlock inLLTextureFetchWorker::DecodeResponder::completed / LLQueuedThread::generateHandle /  LLTextureFetch::getRequestFinished
[14:10] Robin Cornelius: yea you had a question on that too?
[14:10] Robin Cornelius: is one lock necessary?
[14:10] Merov Linden: right, I added it to the comment
[14:11] Latif Khalifa: Robin, I'm still getting and empty solution file on windows
[14:11] Robin Cornelius: i need to review it in full context again to chcek
[14:11] Robin Cornelius: LAtif really? wow, its woking fine here? did the develop.py complete ok?
[14:11] Merov Linden: well, I looked in the code around and it seems inconsistent with the while() loop just above for instance
[14:11] Merov Linden: in the same method
[14:12] Robin Cornelius: i think you must lock if you update the state
[14:12] Latif Khalifa: Robin, it appear that configure runs fine
[14:12] Robin Cornelius: but the code is a house of cards
[14:12] Merov Linden: yes right, but you could keep the lock a little longer if you know you're going to lock it again right after
[14:13] DrFran Babcock: Halllooooo
[14:13] Merov Linden: those lock/unlock are pricy on apr mutexes
[14:13] Robin Cornelius: ah but thats one of the critical points the finish_work() MUST be unlocked
[14:13] Robin Cornelius: i'll review and play
[14:13] Merov Linden: hmmm... OK
[14:14] Merov Linden: you might be right
[14:14] Merov Linden: last time I did unlock/lock tricks like that though I got my virtual butt icked by Aleric
[14:14] Merov Linden: :)
[14:14] Robin Cornelius: although locking to change state and unlocking is pretty craszy
[14:14] Robin Cornelius: yea
[14:14] Robin Cornelius: its probably doing nothing
[14:14] Thickbrick Sleaford: I've been running with Robin's patch for a while, and did see any reduction in framerate while decoding, but I DID ses an increase in fetch speed.
[14:14] Merov Linden: he was right BTW
[14:15] Merov Linden: ok, good to know
[14:15] Merov Linden: look I *want* to put 1.3 to rest
[14:15] Robin Cornelius: oh fetch is amazing in a mall now
[14:16] Merov Linden: so I'm going to spend another hour or so this afternoon to convince myself it's correct and commit
[14:16] Merov Linden: O also
[14:16] Merov Linden: you added some strange double "((" in some statement
[14:16] Robin Cornelius: o/
[14:16] Thickbrick Sleaford: (correction: I _didn't_ reduction in framerate)
[14:16] Robin Cornelius: oh that was alerics idea
[14:16] Merov Linden: seems unecessary really
[14:16] Merov Linden: why?
[14:16] Merov Linden: makes the "&" more tight? :)
[14:16] Robin Cornelius: he wanted specific () grouping on a binary operator
[14:17] Thickbrick Sleaford: protection from BOOL/bool ?
[14:17] Merov Linden: o he's right
[14:17] Merov Linden: but in that case, there was only one binary operation in the if ()
[14:17] ATechwolf Foxclaw: GCC 4.x has stricter ((xxx) && (xxx)) requirment.
[14:17] Merov Linden: I remember those Techwolf
[14:17] Merov Linden: you requested them IIRC
[14:18] Robin Cornelius: in this case it does nothing but it makes a point about it incase someone edits this and adds some other variable into the if()
[14:18] Merov Linden: OK
[14:18] Merov Linden: A little anal but OK...
[14:18] Robin Cornelius: i see his point but i've done a & b == c type mistakes myself in the past
[14:18] Bronson Blackadder: merov said anal.....
[14:18] Merov Linden: At least I understand where it comes from
[14:19] Merov Linden: cool, I think we talked enough about that one
[14:19] Robin Cornelius: we should paste 2 weeks of irc logs on that jira ;-p
[14:19] Merov Linden: 1.3 is really close to be done with that now :)
[14:20] Merov Linden: ok next
[14:20] Merov Linden: well, we just covered point 2.
[14:21] Merov Linden: so jumping to 3
[14:21] Merov Linden: What's the status of the Snowglobe snowflake logo trademark?
[14:21] Merov Linden: Interesting as I didn't realize it was a problem but, indeed, legal contacted me on this
[14:21] Merov Linden: I haven't had a discussion with them yet though
[14:22] Merov Linden: but I'd venture the ETA is "soon"
[14:22] ATechwolf Foxclaw: /me take notes that LL does have a legal department, merov confermed it. :-)
[14:22] Merov Linden: at least, the meeting with legal will be soon
[14:22] Boroondas Gupte: ok
[14:23] Morgaine Dinova: Not necessarily a department, could be external advisers :-)
[14:23] Boroondas Gupte: does anyone from legal do OHs?
[14:23] Merov Linden: not that I know of Boroondas
[14:24] Merov Linden: anyhow, yes, I also saw SNOW-153 and robla's comment on the trademark
[14:24] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-153 
[#SNOW-153] Replace the Snowglobe logo/default icon
[14:24] Boroondas Gupte: btw., is the name "Snowglobe" trademarked, too?
[14:24] Merov Linden: I actually don't know where that effort stand but that's likely the thing legal wants to talk to me about
[14:25] Merov Linden: I really don't know Boroondas, I would guess that's part of the package
[14:25] Thickbrick Sleaford: I did a search and found an application for a trademark a while ago (link in that JIRA)
[14:25] Boroondas Gupte: alright
[14:25] Merov Linden: ok, so, that's the status on that one
[14:25] Merov Linden: next
[14:25] Robin Cornelius: I'm still expecting to use snowglobe and the logo for my debian/ubuntu builds, but these will be right off the published source code and so not really a derrived viewer but an independendly built viewer, so IMHO thats with in acceptable T usage policy, if not i will wait for the C&D
[14:26] Morgaine Dinova: Soft mentioned many things that he's talking to LL Legal about --- worth reading his po6ts on opensource-dev made yesterday.
[14:26] Merov Linden: 4 Mercurial
[14:27] Merov Linden: so, for SG2.0, we choose to stick to svn because it was just easier to get something out faster
[14:27] Merov Linden: in the future though, we fully intend to switch to hg
[14:28] Merov Linden: we need however to make some repo splitting internally so we can do "hg clone" and share more of the code history
[14:29] Merov Linden: while making the whole export process more sane (and less buggy)
[14:29] Merov Linden: there's an internal project under way to get to that point
[14:29] Boroondas Gupte: /me wonders why the split hasn't been done with the internal transition to hg. Would seem to be a good oportunity for such a step.
[14:29] Merov Linden: a few of us have a stake in it so that's moving forward
[14:30] Merov Linden: Boroondas: we talked about it but there were competing tasks and priorities
[14:31] Merov Linden: no overarching technical reason for it, just prioritozation of what needed to be done with resources and time
[14:32] Merov Linden: we have a lot of hg zealots at LL so it's not like we don't like it :)
[14:32] Robin Cornelius: is BoS still there?
[14:32] Merov Linden: absolutely!
[14:32] Boroondas Gupte: :-)
[14:32] Robin Cornelius: he literally writes books on hg ;-)
[14:33] Boroondas Gupte: openly, even :-)
[14:33] Merov Linden: I know: he loobied me and robla back at the start of Snowglobe to use hg
[14:33] Merov Linden: right off the bat
[14:33] Merov Linden: but mixing that with the export script was a tad too much
[14:34] Merov Linden: anyway, one interesting question in the agenda is: can we mirror svn with an hg repo?
[14:34] Robin Cornelius: git has git-svn does hg have a similar wrapper?
[14:34] Boroondas Gupte: it has been done, back when hg.secondlife.com was new
[14:34] Boroondas Gupte: but went out of date short after
[14:34] Merov Linden: I think that hg has a similar function
[14:35] Robin Cornelius: post-commit hook on svn server to hg commit?
[14:35] Merov Linden: /me poke CG
[14:35] Latif Khalifa: cg is meditating, don't disturb ;)
[14:35] Morgaine Dinova: I think Hg does, seem to recall it was mentioned yesterday in opensim-dev, where there was a suggestion to move from Git to Hg (mostly rejected yesterday, haven't looked today)
[14:36] Boroondas Gupte: best Linden to poke about this might be BoS, anyway
[14:36] CG Linden: /me wakes up, startled - huh?
[14:36] Boroondas Gupte: boo
[14:36] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[14:37] Merov Linden: ok, one thing I'd be worried about is changes made independently in both repors
[14:37] Merov Linden: repos
[14:37] Robin Cornelius: i would assume that only one would have general commit rights for th emoment
[14:37] CG Linden: there is a similar wrapper for hg, but as Merov said, it would be better to switch wholesale
[14:37] Robin Cornelius: so for the minute hg is apure mirror
[14:37] Robin Cornelius: people can clone and play with local copies and branches but not push back
[14:37] Morgaine Dinova: Could name a Big Bang week, send all devs hope for a week except for the transition to Hg team. :-) I bet many could do with some rest :-)
[14:38] Merov Linden: well, just to get used to the "hg pull -u" routine?
[14:38] Boroondas Gupte: the SVN version would be considered authoritative until the switch to hg is official
[14:38] CG Linden: we did want to switch earlier, but the export process would have had to be redesigned
[14:39] CG Linden: even LL is not yet completely switched to hg
[14:39] Merov Linden: hmm... ok, I'm willing to look into this Robin though having it just read only is not super useful
[14:40] CG Linden: and the way the switch was done is imperfect in many ways - i.e the repositories are not in a state where we can simply hg push them out into the world
[14:40] Merov Linden: I know it's a pain to handle both hg and svn (I keep typing "svn status -ma" for instance)
[14:40] CG Linden: oh gee, every time I have to goback to svn, I type hg ci ㋡
[14:40] Merov Linden: so I'd really like that switch to happen sooner rather than later
[14:40] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[14:41] Merov Linden: but I'd rather spend my energy helping the repo split to happen internally
[14:41] Boroondas Gupte: sooo ... keep us updated on that and let's move on, I guess
[14:41] Robin Cornelius: kk may be better to wait and safe that effort for the moment then?
[14:41] Merov Linden: so that we do the real switch once and for all
[14:41] Merov Linden: ok, let's moce to the next item
[14:41] Merov Linden: /move/
[14:41] Morgaine Dinova: Think I'll use Hg for my next project to get a feel for it.
[14:41] CG Linden: yeah, we need to get our own repos cleaned up... that in itself is huge... and will hopefully also address the current thrid party library thing
[14:42] CG Linden: http://hginit.com
[14:42] CG Linden: hg rocks
[14:42] Thickbrick Sleaford: heh, I was just about to paste that link
[14:42] Merov Linden: SNOW-495
[14:42] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-495 
[#SNOW-495] BINDIST --- easy way to produce legally distributable binary packages
[14:42] Boroondas Gupte: http://hgbook.red-bean.com/ <<-- BoS's Book!
[14:43] CG Linden: /me returns into his meditative state
[14:43] Bronson Blackadder: heh
[14:43] Boroondas Gupte: note that I filed the issue before the TPV policy was here :-P
[14:44] Boroondas Gupte: so only coincidentally related
[14:44] Merov Linden: it's an interesting idea actually
[14:44] Robin Cornelius: it should not need massive changes either
[14:44] Aimee Linden: /me wonders if she's th only person' that's had to alias "hg" to "hug"
[14:44] Morgaine Dinova: /me doesn't want to talk about TPV, because version #1 was so completely inept and unusable. Let rebase on v2 ;-)
[14:44] Jacek Antonelli: lol Aimee
[14:44] Boroondas Gupte: gentoo has a "bindist" useflag for firefox and other mozilla products, that'll change the branding etc ...
[14:45] Merov Linden: I think that some of the "branding" stuff should be reusable here
[14:45] Robin Cornelius: some cmake flags already partially change branding but we could see this to completion
[14:45] Merov Linden: actually, I was thinking to push that branding thing to main and make it use appropriate parameters
[14:45] Merov Linden: which is basically a similar/close idea
[14:45] Robin Cornelius: snowglobe currently uses default executable name then renames which is sub optimal when you can rename at the beginning
[14:46] ATechwolf Foxclaw: And gentoo test arch now has a freatrue for interactive products that require "yes" to liecent, like sun java and vmware.
[14:46] Morgaine Dinova: ln -s /usr/bin/hg /usr/local/bin/hug
[14:46] Merov Linden: absolutely, it's very hacky
[14:46] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Aimee, great idea :-)
[14:46] Robin Cornelius: but there is a nice VIEWE_BINARY_NAME flag
[14:47] Merov Linden: yeap, this is one thing which is not in the internal scripts
[14:47] Merov Linden: which is silly, it should really
[14:47] Merov Linden: robla never pushed his branding stuff back to main
[14:47] Latif Khalifa: packager also changes exec name addng channel to it
[14:47] Robin Cornelius: VIEWER_BINARY_NAME etc is, i got that into the original cmake implementation or the viewer build
[14:47] Robin Cornelius: *of
[14:48] Merov Linden: may be I'm mixing with some other parameters then
[14:48] Robin Cornelius: but agreeded we could do more/better and it should be in main
[14:48] Aimee Linden: Morgaine: I now "hug push" the viewer every time I send it out ;)
[14:48] Boroondas Gupte: :-P
[14:48] Latif Khalifa: :D
[14:48] Morgaine Dinova: Haha
[14:49] Boroondas Gupte: sounds like a body check
[14:49] Jonathan Yap: Aimee is that like tough love?
[14:49] Nyx Linden: and "hug fetch" gets you more warm and fuzzy code!
[14:49] ATechwolf Foxclaw: /me grins
[14:49] ATechwolf Foxclaw: I be doing that a lot. LOL
[14:49] Aimee Linden: :D
[14:49] Merov Linden: well, Boroondas, I like the idea
[14:49] DrFran Babcock: warm and fuzzy code. Yum
[14:49] DrFran Babcock: that's an oxymoron, no?
[14:49] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Fuzzy logic.
[14:49] Boroondas Gupte: So, anyone to help with it? I don't know enough CMake to do it alllone.
[14:49] Merov Linden: we should at least makes that branding stuff better and push it to main
[14:50] Aimee Linden: "hug merge" does sound a bit intimate though
[14:50] DrFran Babcock: :-)
[14:50] Merov Linden: I can help you since I had to learn quite a bit of it recently
[14:50] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Boroondas, I"me somewhat failmer with cmake, what needs to be again?
[14:50] ATechwolf Foxclaw: to be done
[14:50] Merov Linden: more than I wanted to know to be honest
[14:50] Merov Linden: I know the py and sh scripts better though
[14:51] Merov Linden: some of the cmake commands are pure mystery to me
[14:51] Boroondas Gupte: well, before the CMake fun starts, we first have to know what the result should be, anyway ...
[14:51] Boroondas Gupte: i.e. how the bindist build must be different from what we have now
[14:51] ATechwolf Foxclaw: I would love to be able to tell cmake down only these binairy from LL, not all the them.
[14:51] Merov Linden: ... and that brings us back to the Snowglobe name and logo legal aspects...
[14:52] ATechwolf Foxclaw: down=download
[14:52] Merov Linden: Techwolf: that would make for a long list of "this not that"
[14:52] Merov Linden: no?
[14:53] Merov Linden: won't you prefer to edit your own "install.xml"
[14:53] Merov Linden: so to pull what you want from where you want it?
[14:53] Merov Linden: and build the rest
[14:54] Boroondas Gupte: ./scripts/install.py can already fetch-unpack single packages, when prompted to
[14:54] Merov Linden: /me waits for Techwolf answer
[14:55] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Merov, not really if done right. Editing install.xlm still has to download bianirarys no matter where you put them. Its an idea and have put some thight into it, but havn't started it as a project due to that would take a lot of time.
[14:55] Merov Linden: install.py actually checks a cache with downloaded packages
[14:55] Merov Linden: so you don't download each time
[14:56] Boroondas Gupte: well, it'd be useful to be able to use the "presets" we already have and modify them as needed. Like specify "non-standalone, but use local llqtwebkit" or "standalone, but use LL-provided boost"
[14:56] Merov Linden: even when you clear libraries
[14:56] Merov Linden: /me does this all the time
[14:57] Merov Linden: well, improving and simplifying the build *is* a good idea no matter what
[14:57] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Your thking binianys only. I'je thinkibng of just some bianrys. But as I said, it a large project for me to do and the end result would be some flexabilty on what to build from source and build from bianray.
[14:57] ATechwolf Foxclaw: make
[14:57] ATechwolf Foxclaw: make install.
[14:57] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Yes. I like to dump ./devollope.py and use cmake.
[14:58] Boroondas Gupte: you can already invoke cmake directly
[14:58] Boroondas Gupte: I use it to do out-of-source-tree builds
[14:58] Merov Linden: actually, that was robla's goal too, use only cmake
[14:58] ATechwolf Foxclaw: That what I do reight now, use cmake instaad of devolope.py, but I have to pass a LOT of variables.
[14:58] Boroondas Gupte: (dunno if it calls back to develop.py in the process)
[14:59] Merov Linden: yeah well, develop.py is just so you don't have to pass all those variables
[14:59] Robin Cornelius: develop.py does do more on windows
[14:59] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Have most of them default to standalone on linux and NOTstandalon on windows and set subvariable as apporite.
[14:59] Robin Cornelius: you cannot just run cmake though that is an issue
[14:59] ATechwolf Foxclaw: And let LL build system do anything special for there bianrys.
[15:00] Robin Cornelius: you need cmake -Gsomething as a minimum
[15:00] Boroondas Gupte: well, because for windows, there's no default makefile format
[15:00] Merov Linden: OK, well, I'm all in favor of improvements to make the build process *easier* and closer to pure cmake
[15:01] Boroondas Gupte: :-)
[15:01] Robin Cornelius: my mumbles somthing about an improvement to the build system contract bid
[15:01] Merov Linden: I'm not pushing back, just thinking at how best to do something like that
[15:01] Merov Linden: suggestion, patches, etc... welcome...
[15:02] Merov Linden: time check: it's 3pm
[15:02] Merov Linden: the remaining items on the agenda are 1.4 and 2.0
[15:02] Morgaine Dinova: Has there been official comment yet regarding the relationship between LL Viewer2.0 and Snowglobe2.0? Or is that still forthcoming?
[15:02] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Right now, I have one bug assign to me to fix a regression in viwer_manifest.py. Another file that I like to dump.
[15:02] Robin Cornelius: cmake could do a much better job of that one
[15:02] Jacek Antonelli: Quick question before I go: Is Snowglobe 2.0 going to be parallel development branch beside 1.3? Or is 2.0 what comes after 1.2? (I'm curious because it affects how I organize the commit inheritance in my git source archive)
[15:02] Morgaine Dinova: Not just 2.0 but 2.x future.
[15:03] Merov Linden: Morgaine: right now, we'll be syncing up Snowglobe 2.0 with the Viewer-2-0 branch
[15:03] Merov Linden: I need to push my (and CG) scripts hack in the main though
[15:03] Morgaine Dinova: Sync'ing doesn't really address the question of commonality
[15:03] Merov Linden: to make that really automatic
[15:03] Robin Cornelius: Jacek, there is potential room for a 1.4 but that might never happen or if it does that will be be the last 1.X
[15:04] Merov Linden: I'm not sure what you mean by "commonality" then
[15:04] Morgaine Dinova: What I'm asking is whether it is yet known whether the closed source and open source viewers will diverge.
[15:05] Morgaine Dinova: (Although we haven't yet had official confirmation that main viewer will be closed source, so I guess my question is premature)
[15:06] Morgaine Dinova: Happy to wait until it's official, either way
[15:06] Merov Linden: One thing it that we will have in Snowglobe features that might not make it back in the main viewer
[15:06] Merov Linden: things that are experimental but important for this community
[15:06] Thickbrick Sleaford: and the other way too?
[15:06] Merov Linden: e.g. OGP-Login (at least, as it is right now...)
[15:06] Morgaine Dinova: It's the other direction that worries people
[15:07] Latif Khalifa: an the inability to check what has been merged or not. for example is the first download packet 600 or 1000 bytes, what has been merged and what not?
[15:07] Jacek Antonelli: Gotta run, take care all!
[15:07] Boroondas Gupte: tc, Jacek
[15:07] Morgaine Dinova: UXIG time
[15:08] Merov Linden: okay okay, I cant make a blanket statement on all branches developed at LL, really
[15:08] Morgaine Dinova: An official statement is forthcomign though, right?
[15:09] Merov Linden: Yes, there are internal discussions on this
[15:09] Thickbrick Sleaford: please keep us updated on that - when there's no info people tend to assume the worst.
[15:10] Merov Linden: I know, I'll keep you updated
[15:10] Morgaine Dinova: Well LL 2.0 is just beta, so I guess things are still fluid. But when it's released, the Snowglobe community is going to need to know exactly where it stands w.r.to the Linden viewer.
[15:10] Merov Linden: you will Morgaine
[15:11] Morgaine Dinova: /me chuckles
[15:11] Merov Linden: he
[15:11] Merov Linden: ok, 3:11 and I'd like to call 1.3 a wrap tonight
[15:12] Merov Linden: I read that people have been happy with the stability of the binaries so far so it's time to ship that baby
[15:12] Merov Linden: and simplify the downloads for Snowglobe... (confusing with 3 versions right now...)
[15:12] Nyx Linden: ship it!
[15:13] Morgaine Dinova: :-)
[15:13] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think some clearer formatting on the SG wiki page will help, especially for poeple not versed in development terminology.
[15:13] Merov Linden: then push scripts to main, sync 2.0, merge old Snowglobe specific things to SG 2.0...
[15:13] Merov Linden: /me pants
[15:13] Morgaine Dinova: Hahahaa
[15:13] Robin Cornelius: Merov, a few of the standalone and 64bit build issues we synced already
[15:13] Nyx Linden: yes, yes pants are still in the viewer :)
[15:14] Jonathan Yap: Was there a new installer for Viewer 2.0? It seemed to go a lot faster than when I install SG
[15:14] Merov Linden: throw some meetings with legal in the middle..
[15:14] Merov Linden: Jonathan: SG 20?
[15:14] Jonathan Yap: SG 1.3
[15:14] Boroondas Gupte: btw, I think snowglobe needs a page to cater its (potential/future) non-dev users (although we might want to convert them to devs, whenever possible). Would wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowglobe be the right place for that?
[15:14] Jonathan Yap: vs regular V2.0
[15:14] Aimee Linden: Hmm, didn't http://secondlife.com/download used to link directly to snowglobe downloads?
[15:15] Robin Cornelius: we need to do something with http://snowglobeproject.org/
[15:15] Boroondas Gupte: we can't edit that
[15:15] Robin Cornelius: no but its a wasted resource currently
[15:15] Morgaine Dinova: Converting non-devs to C++ devs is the funniest suggestion I've heard for a long time. Fuzz testing the repository? ;-)
[15:16] Merov Linden: I've a couple of internal JIRA on that page Robin
[15:16] Merov Linden: I don't have accesss to that HTML either :/
[15:16] Aimee Linden: right now the http://secondlife.com/download page sends you to the open source portal, and the Download link there just sends you to the source code, unless you go hunting further down the page
[15:16] Ardy Lay: Download Size: Unknown
[15:16] Ardy Lay: That's cute
[15:17] Morgaine Dinova: /me pictures a Dilbert sketch in which the PHB is given vi and Git to use.
[15:17] Latif Khalifa: lol
[15:17] CG Linden: Igittigittigitt
[15:18] Merov Linden: Aimee: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowglobe has the links to SG2.0 so, eventually, you get there
[15:18] Merov Linden: but yeah, it's not super direct
[15:18] Latif Khalifa: perhaps Download Snowglobe somewhere near the top of https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Portal
[15:18] Merov Linden: one thing though: I'm not pushing folks to use the SG2.0 binaries *now*
[15:19] Merov Linden: it's still fugly and the point of the milestone was for *this* community (right here in this SIM) to get to the *source code*
[15:19] Merov Linden: that was the important critical delivery
[15:19] Robin Cornelius: it builds now too ;-)
[15:19] Morgaine Dinova: Oh!
[15:19] Boroondas Gupte: �/
[15:20] Latif Khalifa: still building here... is it me or does the 2.0 takes twice as long ;)
[15:20] Merov Linden: so I've been a little light on the binaries, I admit
[15:20] Thickbrick Sleaford: the template for the SG downlaod used to be on the top of wiki/Open_Source_Portal
[15:20] Aimee Linden: yeah, my point was anyone wanting to try snowglobe gets sent to the source code by the "Download" link at the top of the Open Source Portal, that should maybe say "Source Download"
[15:20] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, cool! Well done guys ... /me grabs
[15:20] Boroondas Gupte: /me remembers some recent edits about "suppressing links"
[15:21] Merov Linden: Thickbrick: yes, I took that out as the Open Source page is supposed to be about all things Open Source at LL, not just Snowglobe
[15:21] Boroondas Gupte: I guess this was in preparation for 2.0, have those been restored, yet?
[15:22] Aimee Linden: http://secondlife.com/download should link to binary downloads of Snowglobe too, not everyone's going to want to compile it themself
[15:23] Squirrel Wood: I am fashionably late. Thus, I win and you all fail. :p
[15:23] Latif Khalifa: llagent.cpp ... and now linking... ;)
[15:23] Merov Linden: Aimee: you're right
[15:24] Thickbrick Sleaford: or at least to the Snowglobe main page, not the open srouce portal. Then we need to make the SG page a little more clear to non-technical people, but that we don't need super editing powers for.
[15:24] Merov Linden: I need to get a hold of who owns that page
[15:24] Boroondas Gupte: Zai Lynch might help ... she's THE wiki exper of the SL community
[15:24] Boroondas Gupte: *expert
[15:25] Morgaine Dinova: That's not a wiki page Bor, or we could all do it
[15:25] Thickbrick Sleaford: I suggest we talk about ideas for the snowglobe page on it's talk page.
[15:25] Latif Khalifa: and link fails...
[15:25] Thickbrick Sleaford: That way at least "our" side is covered.
[15:26] Robin Cornelius: Latif, oh noes!
[15:26] Boroondas Gupte: ah, it's about http://snowglobeproject.org/  ?
[15:26] Thickbrick Sleaford: I mean ways to make it more clean what to download and how to participate (2 equaly important)
[15:27] Latif Khalifa: ah, build solution failed, it did produce .exe
[15:27] Latif Khalifa: failed on trying to copy fmod.dll
[15:28] Merov Linden: /me was distracted
[15:28] Merov Linden: sorry guys, gotta run..
[15:28] Merov Linden: realy
[15:28] Morgaine Dinova: See you Merov, thanks :-)
[15:28] Merov Linden: see you next week!
[15:28] Latif Khalifa: take care Merov
[15:28] Aimee Linden: bye!
[15:29] Thickbrick Sleaford: see you next week meroc, and thanks for getting the source out
[15:29] Thickbrick Sleaford: *Merov
[15:29] Aimee Linden: time I found some paracetamol and went to bed :S
[15:29] DrFran Babcock: "Goodbye!!"
[15:29] DrFran Babcock: all, thanks for the education and, ahem, the bears.
[15:29] Bronson Blackadder: aimee sounds like shes UK
[15:29] Robin Cornelius: night all, i'm heading off as well
[15:30] Aimee Linden: night :)
[15:30] Latif Khalifa: good night robin
[15:30] Jonathan Yap: hug all
[15:30] Squirrel Wood: /me blames it all on Aimee :p
[15:30] Robin Cornelius: its all right for Aimee shes does not roll in untill 10:30 and thats falling out of bed and switching the mac on ;-p
[15:30] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[15:30] Aimee Linden: lol
[15:30] Latif Khalifa: Aimee, do you know if fmod is the same version as in 1.3?
[15:30] Aimee Linden: yeah, need to work on that, bed's too far from the Mac
[15:31] Aimee Linden: we haven't updated fmod as far as I'm aware
[15:31] Latif Khalifa: kk
[15:31] Squirrel Wood: bad bad bad
[15:31] Ardy Lay: Aimee, plug in your iBed.
[15:31] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[15:31] Aimee Linden: yeah, mixed feelings about fmod
[15:31] Squirrel Wood: always keep stuff up to date so you can benefit from the latest security flaws!
[15:32] Aimee Linden: we'd have to pay a chunky licence fee to upgrade
[15:32] Latif Khalifa: 3.5 works fine
[15:32] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Openal work good on my system and I recommend to any linux user.
[15:32] ATechwolf Foxclaw: recommend it to
[15:32] Aimee Linden: fmod has features openal doesn't that I'd love to make use of in future, but really OpenAL is the way to go for the sake of freedom
[15:33] Ardy Lay: openal handles inworld spacial sounds?
[15:33] Thickbrick Sleaford: yes
[15:33] Latif Khalifa: ah SG build makes the installer now
[15:33] Ardy Lay: Does it also make the uninstaller?
[15:34] Aimee Linden: right, night all!
[15:34] Thickbrick Sleaford: in fact, alerci recntly found a bug where on windows some object's sound was either on or off, and on linux ot had proper falloff
[15:34] Latif Khalifa: i get ./newview/release/Snowglobe_2-0-0-0_Setup.exe
[15:34] Thickbrick Sleaford: *Aleric
[15:34] Boroondas Gupte: night Aimee
[15:34] Latif Khalifa: uninstaller is part of it
[15:34] Thickbrick Sleaford: BTW, I'm running a local 1.4 build done with ./develop.py -t=Release (haven't done that in a while) - it's SO much faster than building with -t=Debug ot LL's builds
[15:34] Ardy Lay: Find the part that deletes chat logs and beat somebody senseless with it.
[15:35] Thickbrick Sleaford: that sounds painful
[15:35] Bronson Blackadder: could be a heavy part
[15:35] Ardy Lay: I always build for Release as I don't know how to debug anyway.
[15:35] Bronson Blackadder: need help lifting it?
[15:36] Ardy Lay: In fact, I feel my being here is like trying to make butter from skim milk. Totally pointless.
[15:36] Thickbrick Sleaford: why?
[15:36] Ardy Lay: What have ai accomplished?
[15:36] Thickbrick Sleaford: what have you learned?
[15:36] ATechwolf Foxclaw: I use splitdebug, its release for me. The stripping is done at the end, I grab the biniary and move then over before they are stripped and let portage handlle the split debug.
[15:37] Thickbrick Sleaford: if the answe is not "nothing" then it's not a complete waste of time
[15:37] Ardy Lay: Well, I haven't been able to really finish anything.
[15:38] Thickbrick Sleaford: I have learned a lot tinkering with the viewer source over the last year or so
[15:38] Ardy Lay: And now 1.4 won't build again.
[15:38] Ardy Lay: cmake is giving me an error after the last svn update.
[15:38] Ardy Lay: I revert it and the error is still there.
[15:38] Boroondas Gupte: try make clean
[15:38] Thickbrick Sleaford: ( I probably still don't qualify for morgain's definition of "c++ developer")
[15:39] Thickbrick Sleaford: what's the error?
[15:39] Thickbrick Sleaford: lot of nested boost templates?
[15:39] Ardy Lay: Yeah, I am running the target binary so clean won't work at the moment.
[15:40] Ardy Lay: 
CMake Error at media_plugins/gstreamer010/CMakeLists.txt:58 (STRING):
[15:40] ATechwolf Foxclaw: cmake "make clean" is rm -fr ${build_dir}
[15:40] Ardy Lay: I am on Windows 7
[15:40] Thickbrick Sleaford: uhh, that's my commit
[15:40] Ardy Lay: If that makes any sense. Why is it even considering gstreamer?
[15:40] Thickbrick Sleaford: I thgouth that file isn't even processed on Windows
[15:41] Ardy Lay: Morgain doesn't like C++ so what does it matter?
[15:41] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Lot of bad logic in the cmake files.
[15:41] ATechwolf Foxclaw: LL_TESTS was just the tip of the iceburg.
[15:42] Thickbrick Sleaford: Ardy, the commit that broke it is from SNOW-513
[15:42] JIRA helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-513 
[#SNOW-513] GCC 4.4: deprecated conversion from string constant to 'gchar*'
[15:43] Ardy Lay: /me steps back to 3136
[15:44] Ardy Lay: Okay. configure seems to work now
[15:44] Thickbrick Sleaford: you can comment out the 5 offending lines - since you don't build gstreamer anyway
[15:44] Thickbrick Sleaford: I will try to figure out what's up with that
[15:44] Ardy Lay: Is it not wrapped with a platform conditional?
[15:44] Thickbrick Sleaford: I thought it was
[15:45] Ardy Lay: I guess nobody else is building 1.4 on Windows?
[15:45] Thickbrick Sleaford: I just commited a few hours ago
[15:45] Ardy Lay: Or maybe all eyes are on 2.0
[15:45] Thickbrick Sleaford: probably
[15:46] Ardy Lay: Well, I really was hoping to be able to learn something in my down time.
[15:47] Boroondas Gupte: /me waves

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