Difference between revisions of "Scripting User group/Transcripts/2011-03-07"

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Latest revision as of 23:30, 22 March 2011

List of Attendees


[09:03] Kelly Linden: okay. I think we are on triage today
[09:03] Kaluura Boa: Calendar is broken because it sorts days alphabetically
[09:03] Kelly Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Kelly_Linden/script_jira_triage
[09:03] Kelly Linden: Anyone in touch with haravikk?
[09:05] Kelly Linden: Maybe if I start messing with his jiras he will magically show up.
[09:06] Draconis Neurocam: GodLoginAndTeleport heh
[09:06] Kelly Linden: SVC-6432 seems like a no brainer. Only trick is that sometimes the displayname won't be available
[09:06] flexi campfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-6432
[09:06] Markbyron Falta: not tiny friendly
[09:07] Kaluura Boa: (Use your AO)
[09:07] Liisa Runo: the sofa can be tiny friendly, just select from the menu to not animate you, will remember your setting so you dont need to do it every week
[09:07] Jonathan Yap: Kelly, will you fix your fireplace jira-helper with the one I am about to give you -- the new one knows how to display the Summary correctly
[09:08] Kelly Linden: SVC-1432
[09:08] flexi campfire: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-1432
[00:00] Jira Helper: (#SVC-1432) llDetectedNormal() - provide normal vectors (or rotations) for collision events
[09:09] dantia Gothly has entered the area.))
[09:09] Kaluura Boa: Might eventually be useful... tho I don't for what right away...
[09:09] Kelly Linden: I'd have to defer to Falcon for this one.
[09:10] Draconis Neurocam: would be good for anything really, probably mostly mesh
[09:10] Neobokrug Elytis: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4632  ?
[00:00] Jira Helper: (#SVC-4632) People getting past Estate and Land bans
[09:10] Kelly Linden: On the LSL side - extending the data returned in llDetected* functions is kind of tricky, unfortunately. It isn't a very extensible system.
[09:11] Kelly Linden: Neo: I keep a triage wiki page here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Kelly_Linden/script_jira_triage feel free to add yours to the end of the new features section.
[09:11] Neobokrug Elytis: Thanks
[09:12] Kelly Linden: For everyone else - I am working through that page now. :) moving on to the third.
[09:12] Kelly Linden: SVC-377
[09:12] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-377
[00:00] Jira Helper: (#SVC-377) LSL functions to access the description of objects in an object's inventory
[09:12] Kelly Linden: I wish that was easy.
[09:12] Draconis Neurocam: Is that even possible?
[09:12] Kaluura Boa: Please, pretty please...
[09:12] Kelly Linden: for some definition of possible, yes.
[09:13] Kelly Linden: However the description is part of the asset, so we would have to fetch the inventory asset (akin to rezing it) to get that information, I think.
[09:13] Draconis Neurocam: dataserver call?
[09:14] Kelly Linden: Actually I may be wrong.
[09:15] Kelly Linden: I think we could get the description.
[09:15] Kelly Linden: We couldn't set it, but we could get it. Is that really useful?
[09:15] Neobokrug Elytis: Done and edited.
[09:15] Kaluura Boa: That would be a start...
[09:16] Draconis Neurocam: isnt that how llRequestInventoryData for landmarks works?
[09:16] Kelly Linden: well, it would be an 'end' too probably.
[09:17] Qie Niangao: is the Set problem just as bad for the script's own description? ( https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2382)
[00:00] Jira Helper: (#SVC-2382) lsl functions llGetScriptDesc() and possibly llSetScriptDesc()
[09:17] Kelly Linden: so you wouldn't be able to use it as a datastore. Yes Qie
[09:17] Qie Niangao: okay, never mind. Thanks.
[09:18] Ashur Constantine: It'd be useful even without a setter function.
[09:18] Kelly Linden: Ashur: can you give me some examples, all the ones in SVC-377 only make sense if you can set it as well I think.
[09:20] Kelly Linden: Well, Haravikk makes a good case for storing parameter data for animations in their description.
[09:20] Ashur Constantine: I haven't read that JIRA, but I make my own vendor board when I need to sell something for example. A lot of times I'll butcher the objectname with a CSV to say...ItemName,VersionNumber
[09:21] Ashur Constantine: and if I could put some of the ugliness in description that'd be one case it'd make sense; where I had to manually set the description once anyway and not have to set it in any automated way.
[09:21] Kelly Linden: There are two subtasks .... I'll comment on those specifically
[09:21] Ashur Constantine: I could have 5 objects named the same thing, with different metadata like version number.
[09:21] Ashur Constantine: alright
[09:21] Kelly Linden: SVC-5892 and SVC-5893
[09:21] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5892
[00:00] Jira Helper: (#SVC-5892) string llGetInventoryDesc(string name)
[09:21] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5893
[00:00] Jira Helper: (#SVC-5893) llSetInventoryDesc(string name, string description)
[09:22] Draconis Neurocam: especially since you cant edit the name of an attachment while its on you and have it saved, so people would have to live with the butchered object name
[09:22] Kelly Linden: You can't have identically named items in object inventory I think.
[09:22] Ashur Constantine: Right I forgot about that; so that wouldn't change that aspect.
[09:22] Draconis Neurocam: it adds numbers to the end i thought
[09:22] Kelly Linden: but I like the idea of storing meta data or other properties in the description.
[09:22] Ashur Constantine: Yeah it does. My bad.
[09:26] Kaluura Boa: (ping)
[09:26] Kelly Linden: PONG
[09:26] Jonno Stromfield: Would it be possible to have a new differently handled property that would be settable in an inventory, or would they all suffer from the same problem?
[09:26] Kelly Linden: sorry, updating jiras as we go.
[09:26] Kelly Linden: They'd all suffer the same problem.
[09:26] Jonno Stromfield: :( Thought you'd say that.
[09:27] Draconis Neurocam: im still curious how it knows the position from landmarks then
[09:27] Kelly Linden: draconis: it does an inventory fetch with the dataserver event
[09:27] Kelly Linden: that doesn't mean it is a great idea.
[09:27] Draconis Neurocam: ah
[09:27] Cummere Mayo: sorry for getting here late... is there an agenda?
[09:27] Kelly Linden: I think I should hold off on SVC-6300 for Haravikk
[09:27] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6300
[00:00] Jira Helper: (#SVC-6300) llStartAnimationSynced() - start an animation synchronised with a given timestamp
[09:28] Kelly Linden: Working through triage today cummere https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Kelly_Linden/script_jira_triage
[09:28] Cummere Mayo: ty
[09:28] Kelly Linden: So, moving on to SVC-6441
[09:28] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6441
[00:00] Jira Helper: (#SVC-6441) Allow us to decide which llDetected*() functions are populated to save on memory/processing
[09:29] Jonno Stromfield: er, just a sec
[09:29] Jonno Stromfield: what happened to start animation synched?
[09:29] Jonno Stromfield: of sorry, you said
[09:29] Kelly Linden: That is haravikk's baby. He is extremely invested in it - it would be unfair to discuss without him.
[09:29] Jonno Stromfield: missed the comment
[09:30] Jonno Stromfield: just want to say I'm really interested too
[09:31] Kelly Linden: Feel free to comment/watch the issue. We'll get back to it some time when he is here.
[09:31] Jonno Stromfield: kk
[09:32] Kelly Linden: I think this jira over estimates the memory and processing involved in the llDetected* data
[09:32] Ashur Constantine: Would that actually result in a lot of savings? i.e. is llDetectedPos always populated even if I'm only ever getting llDetectedName?
[09:32] Ashur Constantine: probably.
[09:33] Kelly Linden: That is correct - all the llDetected data is populated for each 'hit'
[09:33] Cummere Mayo: dumb question but ... why?
[09:33] Kelly Linden: The biggest savings is probably the name - it is the only string value.
[09:33] Kaluura Boa: Maybe that would be useful not to populate everything.. from the sim point of view...
[09:34] Qie Niangao: I'd think there'd be some overhead in having variable format event records.
[09:34] Neobokrug Elytis: You'd probably need a filter like llCastRay has.
[09:34] Jonathan Yap: I would think the number of touch events/second is not going to be very large, or am I missing something?
[09:34] Ashur Constantine: stuff like collision() happens a lot, and sensors.
[09:35] Draconis Neurocam: even so changing any of how it works could possibly break existing content, so unless it just knew what was needed, it would just be a new set of functions anyway
[09:35] Ashur Constantine: but its a question of whether sim changing savings are actually there, doesn't sound like it.
[09:35] Kelly Linden: Honestly it is about 100 bytes plust the name.
[09:36] Liisa Runo: i guess the proper way to tune it is to make the compiler see what llDetected* functions are used when it comples, and the tunes go to the server. So that would not need any changes to the actual LSL code
[09:37] Kelly Linden: that would be even trickier.
[09:37] Draconis Neurocam: you would have to unroll everything
[09:37] Draconis Neurocam: that sounds horribly unfun
[09:37] Jonathan Yap: The server would have to keep a lookup list for every script and check it for every event
[09:38] Draconis Neurocam: i feel like this is just not worth it.
[09:38] Ashur Constantine: doesn't sound like it.
[09:38] Cummere Mayo: thats kinda my impression to
[09:38] Cummere Mayo: *too
[09:38] LaRPS Meter v0.25: ((dantia Gothly's meter has been detached.))
[09:39] Kelly Linden: Ok.
[09:39] Liisa Runo: all im saying, why should we decide what llDetected* is populatesd when the compiler already see that just fine, it can be automatic, and that way it would also help with old scripts
[09:39] Kelly Linden: Because it is more difficult to do that. :)
[09:39] Draconis Neurocam: severly so
[09:39] Kaluura Boa: Changing LSL btecode is a no-no...
[09:40] Kaluura Boa: bytecote*
[09:40] Qie Niangao: maybe the name could be retained internally as a handle, instead of a string, and only dereferenced when llDetectedName is called... if that would save enough mem to be worth the effort.
[09:40] Liisa Runo: difficult for 3 hours for a linedn vs difficult for the future scripters to the end of the time
[09:40] Kelly Linden: 3 hours?
[09:41] Draconis Neurocam: no its not the time it would take Liisa its the extra strain on everything it would place.
[09:42] Kelly Linden: Ok, next
[09:42] Kelly Linden: SVC-6532
[09:42] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6532
[00:00] Jira Helper: (#SVC-6532) agent() event for detecting changes in avatar state, ideal for animation overriders
[09:42] Liisa Runo: i dont see the difference in automated thing vs user settable thing, both create the same strain when being run on server, only difference is when the script get compiled
[09:43] Draconis Neurocam: agent() would be great
[09:43] Liisa Runo: yes
[09:43] Kaluura Boa: Yep!
[09:43] Qie Niangao: yeah, this *would* be great
[09:43] dantia Gothly: yeesss
[09:44] Kaluura Boa: That or just a function to replace the default anims...
[09:44] Liisa Runo: that
[09:44] Draconis Neurocam: its useful for more than animations though
[09:44] Liisa Runo: lot more
[09:44] Kelly Linden: Kaluura - yeah I'd love to see animation overrides more fully supported
[09:45] Cummere Mayo: okay so just to make crystal clear the only thing these could be used for is to better time and clean up animations?
[09:46] Draconis Neurocam: no, it could be used for objects changing anything about them if an agent was doing x
[09:46] Draconis Neurocam: theres more than just animations that this is useful for
[09:46] Kelly Linden: The permissions issue isn't touched on here - who should a script be able to observe?
[09:46] Ashur Constantine: I think it'd be particularly useful if agent() had change flags for things we poll for in llGetAgentInfo
[09:46] Draconis Neurocam: probably who is worn or sat upon kelly
[09:47] Qie Niangao: hmmm. perhaps a new permission, auto-granted for attachments and sat-upon things.
[09:47] Neobokrug Elytis: Owners Only.
[09:47] Ashur Constantine: Could it bet setup to work like sensor? llSetAgentEvent(key agent)?
[09:47] Liisa Runo: just make it use the same perms system everything else already have, autogrant when attached or sat and dialog grant otherwise
[09:47] Cummere Mayo: yeah... i -could- see where like huggers/sex huds could use it too.... but in that case it would need to trigger a dialogue
[09:49] Qie Niangao: (just in passing: those skirt-sitter scripts, whatever they're called, also sample agent state frequently)
[09:49] Ashur Constantine: The use case I'm thinking of is say I want to detect if someone is flying, who's just in my sim. If I could attach an agent event to them and get a change flag of AGENT_FLYING, I could do something.
[09:49] Kelly Linden: Well, is the pemissions needed? I don't think llGetAgentInfo and llGetAnimation require any permission to check
[09:49] Ashur Constantine: Or an AWAY, etc.
[09:49] Neobokrug Elytis: THat's a good point, since it doesn't act upon an avatar.
[09:49] Draconis Neurocam: yeah
[09:50] Kaluura Boa: Yes... No perms... That's even better
[09:50] Qie Niangao: I think that's correct. no need for perms.
[09:50] Liisa Runo: someone will cry about privacy, but yea i agree, no need to keep those secret. no need for permission check
[09:50] Kelly Linden: This is a fairly large undertaking
[09:50] Cummere Mayo: llgetagentinfo is sometimes abused though isnt it?
[09:50] Draconis Neurocam: this is just a replacement for calling those anyway with some other form of call
[09:51] Kaluura Boa: Ppl are already cryiing about privacy because we have radars who can say where they are...
[09:51] Second Life: Entering god mode, level 200
[09:51] Qie Niangao: don't see how, Cummere. although llRequestAgentInfo() is controversial because it gets online status remotely.
[09:51] Ashur Constantine: Well its just change events.
[09:51] Cummere Mayo: because of svc-4823 and others...
[09:51] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4823
[00:00] Jira Helper: (#SVC-4823) block online status at server level
[09:51] Neobokrug Elytis: Well, since Web Profiles don't show if people are on or offline...
[09:52] Draconis Neurocam: or since you can entirely stop your web profile from being seen
[09:52] Cummere Mayo: sorry but agent info and anything that replaces it should trigger a dialogue imo
[09:52] Neobokrug Elytis: As an estate owner, it's hard to try to contact people if they all appear offline.
[09:52] Draconis Neurocam: indeed
[09:53] Cummere Mayo: you drop them an offline
[09:53] Cummere Mayo: problem solved
[09:53] Sista Mixemup: agrees with Cummere
[09:53] Neobokrug Elytis: Not everyone forwards IMs.
[09:53] Cummere Mayo: so?
[09:53] Neobokrug Elytis: ANd some things are time sensitive.
[09:53] Draconis Neurocam: like whether or not a sim is kept or sold
[09:53] Cummere Mayo: so drop them a notecard
[09:53] Cummere Mayo: even capped ims that is always forwareded
[09:53] Qie Niangao: but two very different things, GetAgentInfo and RequestAgentData... unless we're thinking of agent() events seeing online state transitons, too.
[09:53] Flip Idlemind: If you're gonna block online status at the server level you'll have to block sensors as well. If a sensor sees you, you're online.
[09:53] Cummere Mayo: even if they dont forward ims
[09:53] Jonno Stromfield: Would what' s being proposed make this worse?
[09:54] Neobokrug Elytis: Or parcel, etc.
[09:54] Draconis Neurocam: no this evolved into something else, this would not change anything
[09:54] Kaluura Boa: It would change anything
[09:54] Draconis Neurocam: its gotten off topic actually
[09:54] Jonno Stromfield: That's what I thought, Drac
[09:54] Kaluura Boa: wouldn't*
[09:54] Draconis Neurocam: it would be an improvement
[09:54] Neobokrug Elytis: I guess the problem is I don't understand why it's a bit deal to hide if you're online or not.
[09:54] Draconis Neurocam: to have agent()
[09:55] Draconis Neurocam: so a timer could be free from polling other functions
[09:55] Draconis Neurocam: or anything else for that matter
[09:55] Cummere Mayo: yeah... but it needs to be restricted only to the owner or trigger a dialogue when its not (except when sat upon)
[09:55] Qie Niangao: unless agent() events are raised for online status changes, I don't see the point... and that's not realistic, if I understand the presence system at all.
[09:55] Ashur Constantine: My point was that we already have llGetAgentInfo(), but to get the key we usually get it through other events like collision, touch, sensors etc.
[09:56] Ashur Constantine: So it could make some sense to set an agent key with 1 function and have that agent() event work thusly.
[09:56] Draconis Neurocam: it would only be per agent anyway, so it would be tied to a key
[09:56] Jonno Stromfield: only on the current sim (and possibly the immediate surrounds)?
[09:57] Cummere Mayo: definately jonno
[09:57] Ashur Constantine: Same constraints as llGetAgentInfo; we can already get that stuff.
[09:57] Qie Niangao: nice demo, flip. A plywood box is worth a thousand words. :D
[09:57] Ashur Constantine: Its just how we get it.
[09:57] Cummere Mayo: ild argue MORE constraints ashur
[09:57] Kelly Linden: Ok, I think that is all we have time for today.
[09:57] Kelly Linden: Any last minute topics?
[09:57] Cummere Mayo: and that box is a great example of why I would argue for more constraints
[09:58] Kaluura Boa: llIntegerToHex()... Any chance?
[09:58] Jonathan Yap: The proposal is only to do something more efficiently
[09:58] Kelly Linden: Kaluura no not really
[09:58] Ashur Constantine: Not sure what you mean but llGetAgentInfo only shows us what we can see plain as day with our eyes; such as if someone is AFK, its not a privacy breech.
[09:58] Cummere Mayo: ild still like to see some-thing done with svc-4823 kelly
[09:58] Kaluura Boa: Bleh...
[09:59] Kelly Linden: Cummere, I know. I definitely don't have time to get into that today
[10:00] Cummere Mayo: next time?
[10:00] Kelly Linden: It isn't on my triage list, but I'm also not sure how applicable it is to my triages
[10:00] Jonathan Yap: Wil the remaining items carry over to next week
[10:00] Liisa Runo: I know, when people disable their online visibility, automatically TP them to cornfield (or similar) and block all commun iocations and everything, so they can be very alone and in privacy
[10:00] Draconis Neurocam: heh
[10:00] Kelly Linden: jonathan yup that is how it works. Well, in two weeks. Next week is freeform discussion
[10:00] Jonathan Yap: Liisa, look at my profile picks
[10:00] Markbyron Falta: there's plenty of valid uses for online status such as customer service in stores and so forth
[10:01] Liisa Runo: (look at my picks)
[10:01] Kelly Linden: Ok, thank you everyone for coming. See you all next week. :)
[10:01] Draconis Neurocam: Have a good day kelly.
[10:01] Ashur Constantine: thanks kelly
[10:01] Ashur Constantine: see you next week.
[10:01] Sista Mixemup: thank you Kelly
[10:01] Jonno Stromfield: ty
[10:01] Qie Niangao: Thanks Kelly!
[10:01] Cummere Mayo: ty kelly

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