Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.02.15

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List of Speakers

Adam Spark Andrew Linden Ardy Lay
Ash Qin Cummere Mayo Draconis Neurocam
Flip Idlemind Jessica Lyon Jonathan Yap
Kadah Coba Kelly Linden Latif Khalifa
Liisa Runo Melvin Starbrook Moon Metty
Oskar Linden Qie Niangao Ratchet Xevion
RedMokum Bravin Rex Cronon Ryu Darragh
Sebastean Steamweaver Simon Linden Stickman
TankMaster Finesmith Techwolf Lupindo Twisted Laws
Whirly Fizzle Zidonuke Ghost

Transcript

[12:01] Fancy Linden Greeter: Andrew Linden has arrived!

[12:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: And welcome Andrew

[12:02] Ardy Lay: Did anybody else in Blue Steel notice parcel auto-return time getting set to zero upon restart?

[12:02] Draconis Neurocam: hey oskar

[12:02] RedMokum Bravin: Not really no.

[12:02] Oskar Linden: I had not seen that ardy

[12:02] Simon Linden: I haven't been following the releases closely since my code isn't in the pipeline yet, but I believe this one has fixes for display names

[12:02] RedMokum Bravin: Mine is still at 60 mins. Ardy.

[12:02] Oskar Linden: it does simon.

[12:02] Andrew Linden: Hello. I made it today (thought maybe I would miss it).

[12:02] Latif Khalifa: Hi Andrew!

[12:02] TankMaster Finesmith: welcome andrew

[12:03] Ash Qin: Greetings.

[12:03] Andrew Linden: Ok so news...

[12:03] Simon Linden: I'm not sure what's getting rolled into the RC channels tomorrow ... I _think_ the mono performance may be one of them

[12:04] Latif Khalifa: yey

[12:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: Would that fix the mono-pause issue?

[12:04] Ardy Lay: I had a parcel with some items owned by Governor Linden on them. IT's autoreturn timer got set to zero. When we set it back to 1 minute, Governor Linden's stuff vanished.

[12:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: (no pun intended)

[12:04] Flip Idlemind: "mono2-aware" or some such thing

[12:04] Andrew Linden: I think LeTigre (display names fixes) was promoted today.

[12:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yes, that was the version rolled out to my sim.

[12:05] Andrew Linden: Really Ardy? Where and when was that?

[12:05] Ardy Lay: This morning in Tehama.

[12:05] Ardy Lay: It was just some old logs and such but we kinda wanted them to stay there.

[12:06] Andrew Linden: Well I'm curious to find out why they got returned.

[12:06] Andrew Linden: I took a note, I'll try to track them down.

[12:06] Andrew Linden: Do you know the approximate hour of the event?

[12:06] Ardy Lay: I suppose it's possible a group member did it but none are claiming responsibility.

[12:06] Rex Cronon: greetings everybody

[12:07] Latif Khalifa: hey rex

[12:07] Ardy Lay: Hmm... No.. I was not logged in at the time.

[12:07] Andrew Linden: The encroachment stuff touched the autoreturn code, but it shouldn't be deleting Gov Linden stuff.

[12:07] Ardy Lay: I'll try asking again.

[12:07] Andrew Linden: I'm just curious if it was caused by my changes.

[12:08] Rex Cronon: hi latif

[12:08] Andrew Linden: Yes, the "mono2-aware" project is the new RC candidate that should show up tomorrow.

[12:08] Latif Khalifa: which chan?

[12:08] Andrew Linden: That is Kelly and Ambroff's work, right Simon?\

[12:08] Andrew Linden: Probably LeTigre.

[12:08] Kadah Coba: \o/

[12:08] Melvin's Windup key: Melvin Starbrook's windup key has run out.

[12:09] Simon Linden: yes, it was getting some final performance tests this morning

[12:09] Melvin's Windup key whispers: Liisa Runo winds up Melvin Starbrook's key.

[12:09] Oskar Linden: I can never remember what goes where. that's why I write it all down in the blogs

[12:09] Melvin Starbrook: :)

[12:09] Oskar Linden: http://blogs.secondlife.com/message/619223

[12:09] Andrew Linden: Maestro was testing the mono2-aware stuff yesterday and said there were some slight performance improvements, but hard to measure

[12:09] Andrew Linden: but maestro was testing the mono-performance branch at the same time

[12:09] Ryu Darragh: So much of our memories are going online instead of paper, nowadays.

[12:10] Moon Metty: the real improvements would only show on a region that has been up for some time

[12:10] Andrew Linden: mono-performance is the next probject that Kelly is working on I think.

[12:10] Oskar Linden: since we change 4 code branches and deploy them each week I need to write things down

[12:10] Latif Khalifa: ah mono2 aware is just part 1 on two part rollout of mono

[12:10] Andrew Linden: Latif is correct.

[12:10] Oskar Linden: we want you to be aware of it

[12:10] Simon Linden: right, it's a first step

[12:10] Flip Idlemind: Better than no steps

[12:10] Latif Khalifa: just makes legacy mono not crash on new mono serialization that will be deployed in the next step

[12:11] Ryu Darragh: Sim TD when people TP in...

[12:11] Andrew Linden: maestro said the mono-performance stuff is 4 times faster at loading his test scripted object

[12:11] Andrew Linden: but he was using some special "simperf" tools to measure the script load time

[12:11] Latif Khalifa: we will seee if it helps "freezing" degradation over time

[12:12] Andrew Linden: Latif, could you elaborate on the "freezing degredation over time" thing?

[12:12] Simon Linden: I think he also found wide variation ... so this isn't going to cure all our problems, but at is good as we're heading in the right direction

[12:13] Latif Khalifa: evertything loads fine after sim restart even now, but give it 3-4 days you see "lag events" or freezes of 5-10sec, even 30-40s if its bad

[12:13] Latif Khalifa: 3-4 days uptime on a busy sim where a lot of avatars are coming and going

[12:13] Andrew Linden: Latif, you mean when loading a mono scripted object? any object? or a TP?

[12:13] Moon Metty: the longer a region has been up, the longer the freezes caused by mono (de)rezzing

[12:13] Latif Khalifa: mostly visible when a new avatar teleports in

[12:13] Sebastean Steamweaver: Someone needs to set up online lag seismographs for sim lag.

[12:13] Andrew Linden: Hrm... ok.

[12:13] Latif Khalifa: or teleports out

[12:14] Ryu Darragh: TP in if wearing mono scripted attachments, isn't it?

[12:14] Andrew Linden: I've got a maint-server project that is in the RC queue now that may help there a little bit

[12:14] Andrew Linden: however I did not sucessfully find a memory leak while I was working on it

[12:14] Latif Khalifa: The part that I don't understand is how come that mono rezzing isn't freezing sims after restart, but it does after 3-4 days of uptime

[12:14] Andrew Linden: all evidence suggested that it was memory fragmentation

[12:14] Ardy Lay: Andrew, to answer your question about when the items owned by Governor Linden in Tehama vanished: about 9:45 AM PST.

[12:14] Andrew Linden: but I've got the object delete code cleaned up a little bit, and it is a bit faster.

[12:15] Ryu Darragh: Is it script state loading or the VM thread deploy? Both?

[12:15] Moon Metty: yes Latif, the growth of the freezes starts right from the beginning

[12:15] Andrew Linden: Thanks Ardy. That timestamp helps me alot because the logs go all day.

[12:16] Ardy Lay: Thanks Andrew. If it turn out a resident returned them then sorry to have wasted your time.

[12:16] Andrew Linden: Ryu, could you rephrase your question about VM and script loading?

[12:16] Andrew Linden: I'm not sure I understand its full context.

[12:16] Simon Linden: If you're asking if they run in another thread, the answer is no

[12:17] Simon Linden: or are loaded in another thread

[12:17] Andrew Linden: Latif do you have a particular region in mind that gets laggy after long uptime?

[12:17] Ryu Darragh: When you load a MONO program into the VM, it has to grab a thread from the VM engine. When an avatar TPs in or crosses a region boundary, the script state needs to be sent.

[12:17] Andrew Linden: Or are you just noticiing it everywhere?

[12:18] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, all of the busy region experince it

[12:18] Ryu Darragh: Not sure how the Linden MONO VM is configured.

[12:18] Latif Khalifa: those that have a lot of avatars coming and going

[12:18] Simon Linden: Ryu - I'm not sure either, Kelly would be the best person to ask

[12:18] Melvin's Windup key whispers: Melvin Starbrook's Windup Commands:

[12:18] Melvin's Windup key whispers: /74 msmenu

[12:18] Melvin's Windup key whispers: Touch spots: Touch the bow to wind up, and the shaft for the menu.

[12:18] Latif Khalifa: it has been docummented in about dozen JIRAs

[12:18] Latif Khalifa: with pretty graphs and all

[12:18] Andrew Linden: Yeah, me neither Ryu. Kelly Linden knows more about the MONO implementation.

[12:19] Ardy Lay: Are we discussing SVC-3895?

[12:19] Simon Linden: I'm pretty sure he's going to start up a user group for scripting, or possibly integrate with this one

[12:19] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3895

[#SVC-3895] Rezzing Mono scripted object cripples sim FPS

[12:19] Andrew Linden: He has a User Group meeting on monday mornings, I think.

[12:19] Ryu Darragh: Yeah. I remember the script state being called a particularly nasty headache compared to all the other things sent via a compressed stream on region crossing :P

[12:19] Twisted Laws: i've not seen it lately in Sandbox Goguen, Latif... and its a very busy region

[12:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: I actually have a question about some of the more "fun" things when you're ready :)

[12:19] Simon Linden: I just asked him ... it's Monday at 9 pst

[12:19] Cummere Mayo: afk a moment

[12:19] Andrew Linden: Ok thanks Latif. I'm curious it know if my next maint-server helps out.

[12:20] Andrew Linden: However, I can get Xan Linden to compute some metrics to see if it is helping.

[12:20] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, when is it getting released?

[12:20] Andrew Linden: It should be next week Latif.

[12:20] Andrew Linden: It is in the queue, at the front I think.

[12:20] Latif Khalifa: will let you know, we have been collectig stats for two years now

[12:20] Andrew Linden: But something high priority might bump it, dunno.

[12:20] Latif Khalifa: since this sim freeze plague strted

[12:21] Ryu Darragh: Hmmm... anyone know if a MONO script is added to the VMs list if it's not running? Gah... zillion ideas to figure out which it is, now :P (writes NC)

[12:21] Melvin's Windup key: Melvin Starbrook's windup key has run out.

[12:21] Melvin's Windup key whispers: Liisa Runo winds up Melvin Starbrook's key.

[12:22] Ardy Lay: It has to be inserted for the VM to see that it's "not running".

[12:22] Andrew Linden: No, I think if it is not running then it is not added. We have a separate "not running" list of scripts that we manage.

[12:22] Ardy Lay: Ah, cool.

[12:22] Stickman: Not running scripts do use memory, though.

[12:22] Ryu Darragh: That's what I thought and it'll help tremendously to figure that one out.

[12:23] Ryu Darragh: But, they won;t accellerate memory fragmentation.

[12:23] Andrew Linden: Stickman is correct.;

[12:23] Stickman: We had that discussion with Kelly. Only way to clean out a script from memory is to delete it.

[12:23] Ryu Darragh: (static loaded ones, that is... not running or deleted)

[12:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which is why even if you have an object with a ton of scripts, if they're all turned off, they can still cause sim load when it enters.

[12:23] Ryu Darragh: Yep

[12:24] Ryu Darragh: Counting on that.

[12:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: What was meant as a question actually lol - forgot the ?

[12:24] Fancy Linden Greeter: Kelly Linden has arrived!

[12:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: Welcome Kelly :)

[12:24] Andrew Linden: Yes Sebastean. The non-running scripts are parsed and loaded into memory.

[12:24] Ash Qin likes Kelly's avatar.

[12:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: That was my impression, but I wanted to check

[12:24] Ryu Darragh: I'm using an implementation of a MONO VM in an embedded processor system.

[12:24] Ryu Darragh: Is a fun little VM.

[12:25] Stickman: Instant authority smackdown. Impressive.

[12:25] Andrew Linden: Hey Kelly, I think we might have some MONO questions for you today.

[12:25] Kelly Linden: Hello. All right.

[12:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: I do have a physics question at some point :)

[12:25] Andrew Linden: Also, I was mentioning some early rumors about your mono-performance project. that Maestro was testing a bit yesterday.

[12:26] Andrew Linden: Maestro claimed his test object was loading 4X faster in mono-performance.

[12:26] Kelly Linden: Unfortunately that isn't the results I was seeing. :)

[12:26] Kelly Linden: It is *really* hard to test because the benefits are seen primarily in regions that have been up and active under "normal" use for a while.

[12:26] Melvin's Windup key: Melvin Starbrook's windup key has run out.

[12:27] Moon Metty: yes

[12:27] Melvin's Windup key whispers: Liisa Runo winds up Melvin Starbrook's key.

[12:27] Melvin's Windup key whispers: Cummere Mayo winds up Melvin Starbrook's key.

[12:27] Melvin's Windup key whispers: Cummere Mayo winds up Melvin Starbrook's key.

[12:27] Melvin's Windup key whispers: Cummere Mayo winds up Melvin Starbrook's key.

[12:27] Melvin Starbrook: YAY!

[12:27] Cummere Mayo: anyone else having issues with avatar textures downloading and baking?

[12:28] Kadah Coba: Today? Yes!

[12:28] Ryu Darragh: The MONO VM I'm using is pretty good about memory leaks when all the blocks are the same size.

[12:28] Ash Qin: I am constantly being told people can't see my skin and that I need to rebake.

[12:28] Melvin Starbrook: not recently

[12:28] Kadah Coba: My face was on my leg when I logged in

[12:28] Kelly Linden: We are going to have to look a the aggregated stats once it hits RC (should be starting tomorrow) to see the effect of the mono2 work.

[12:29] Kelly Linden: That will tell us a lot more than the synthetic tests are able to.

[12:29] Latif Khalifa: Kelly, isn't RC tomorrow just legacy mono not crashing on new serliazation?

[12:29] Moon Metty: Kelly is there a paricular jira where this is being tracked?

[12:29] Andrew Linden: Kelly, you're talking about the mono2-aware project that hit's RC tomorrow, right?

[12:29] Kelly Linden: Tomorrow is legacy script system using mono 2.6 primarily to pick up version tolerance features.

[12:29] Kelly Linden: Yes.

[12:30] Andrew Linden: Maestro was testing that, but he said he was comparing mono2-aware rez times with a mono-performance build.

[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[12:30] Andrew Linden: Which I assumed was the next wave of mono fixes.

[12:30] Kelly Linden: You have it right.

[12:31] Kelly Linden: I was ahead of myself since I've been looking at the performance branch with maestro all day

[12:32] Ryu Darragh: Not seeing the forst for all the trees?

[12:32] Oskar Linden: I see a lot of phoenix vwr folks here today. I wonder if they want to talk about VWR-24804

[12:32] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24804

[#VWR-24804] Taking off part or all of a clothing/attachment set and then wearing another item often causes the the removed item(s) to reapear

[12:32] TankMaster Finesmith: lol oskar :P

[12:32] Andrew Linden: Thanks for bringing that up Oskar.

[12:32] Oskar Linden: ms lyon?

[12:32] Jessica Lyon: Yes! ty!

[12:32] Jessica Lyon: so uh...

[12:32] Jessica Lyon: Attachment fail..

[12:32] Moon Metty: lol

[12:32] Melvin Starbrook: i have something simular

[12:33] Oskar Linden: you said your support team was hit pretty hard with this issue after the roll last week?

[12:33] Ash Qin has seen that only happening with undershirts and underpants type clothing.

[12:33] Andrew Linden: I'm curious to know if people notice that in Magnum only, or everywhere?

[12:33] Jessica Lyon: examples...

[12:33] Jessica Lyon: user logs in, watches shoes attach, detach, attach, detach, re attach

[12:33] Melvin Starbrook: but allready got the solution by asking on the phoenix group hihi

[12:33] Sebastean Steamweaver has all the same outfits, so it doesn't really affect him.

[12:33] Techwolf Lupindo smiels

[12:33] Jessica Lyon: notice inventory shows them as not worn

[12:33] Ryu Darragh is happy to find RenderAvatarInvisible in 1.23.5 and wishes it wouldn't break when changing avatars :P

[12:33] Jessica Lyon: when they clearly are, leaving user unable to detach

[12:33] Sebastean Steamweaver has a closet like Charlie Brown.

[12:33] Andrew Linden: There are some changes in Magnum that might affect the NameValue system that is used to connect an attachment with its "worn" inventory item.

[12:33] Latif Khalifa: yes object update arrives at the viewer with NULL inventry item

[12:33] Jessica Lyon: this started with last weeks main server update

[12:33] Cummere Mayo: thats not just a pheonix bug and thats been around forever!

[12:34] Jessica Lyon: this is happening on ALL viewers that support multi attachments

[12:34] Oskar Linden: the issue is in main branch now and last week right jess?

[12:34] Jessica Lyon: right Oskar

[12:34] Oskar Linden: but magnum works correctly you say?

[12:34] Jessica Lyon: apparently.. Whirly?

[12:34] Whirly Fizzle: Feb 8-10th rollouts it started on main

[12:34] Latif Khalifa: And viewer if it get object update with 0 uuid for inventory item doesn't know what's worn and what's not.

[12:34] Jessica Lyon: Whirly's on our support..

[12:34] Melvin Starbrook: yes its about same jra

[12:34] Whirly Fizzle: Kitty said only Magnum isn't affected now by this bug

[12:34] Cummere Mayo: actually magnum is too

[12:35] Cummere Mayo: its just rarer

[12:35] Ash Qin: I've seen it on Magnum. Just not often.

[12:35] Andrew Linden: Huh. Ok. Thanks for the info.

[12:35] Jessica Lyon: So.. this is a perplexing issue, not always easy to reproduce as it seems somewhat random but it's a major issue

[12:35] Ash Qin spends most of his time on a Magnum sim.

[12:35] Oskar Linden: it would make sense that all channels have it

[12:35] Cummere Mayo: this bug has been there for months and months but only recently got to be a nearly all the time occurance

[12:35] Oskar Linden: if main did last week

[12:35] Jessica Lyon: It has been our No1 support issue since last week

[12:35] Jessica Lyon: we've been hammered with it

[12:35] Latif Khalifa: https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/server-beta/2011-February/000202.html

[12:36] Flip Idlemind: See these wings Im wearing (kinda hard to miss)? Earlier, I was wearing them but they didn't show up as "worn", and I crashed when trying to detach them

[12:36] Latif Khalifa: ^that one

[12:36] Jessica Lyon: Latif, nice

[12:36] Oskar Linden: so the repro is the same for months, but now it happens more often?

[12:36] Jessica Lyon: Flip.. exactly

[12:36] Cummere Mayo: yeah

[12:36] Melvin Starbrook: think its caused when you change between 1.x and 2.x viewers

[12:36] Melvin Starbrook: '\

[12:36] Melvin Starbrook: ?

[12:36] Jessica Lyon: Oskar. yes it's gotten very very bad since last week

[12:36] Cummere Mayo: thats related melvin

[12:36] Ash Qin: I have yet to crash over detatch though.

[12:36] Cummere Mayo: but i only use 2.x based for some avis this occurs on

[12:36] Jessica Lyon: Phoenix is 1.5 based but has v2 inventory system

[12:37] Melvin Starbrook: hihi yes :)

[12:37] Jessica Lyon: it also happens for users on 2.4, 2.5 and one report I got of 2.6

[12:37] Latif Khalifa: this has nothing to do with v1 - v2 changes ... people who have been using same viewer consistently also see it

[12:37] Melvin Starbrook: maybe changing viewers in general

[12:37] Jessica Lyon: right

[12:37] Ryu Darragh: <- wears many full prim avatars and uses 1.23.5 exclusively to build and has never had a problem except once and the region had crashed that moment.

[12:37] Jessica Lyon: I know a few users who have only used LL viewer, had this start on 2.4 last week

[12:37] Flip Idlemind: And even more strangely: Earlier today, most if not all of my attachments seemed to detach and immediately re-attach. It was coupled with an "RLVa assertion failure"

[12:38] Jessica Lyon: Assertion failures have been epic on account of this yes

[12:38] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah

[12:38] Andrew Linden: What is an "RLVA assertion" ?

[12:38] Rex Cronon: i use 1.23.5 and the server keeps eating my attachments:(

[12:38] Jessica Lyon: so happening on 1.23 too?

[12:38] Latif Khalifa: The bug in the server is that under some circumstances it sends NULL in name/value pairs for the inventory item UUID.

[12:38] Adam Spark: I had that last night, a couple of my attachments disappeared and reappeared over and over again

[12:38] Melvin Starbrook: mm eating them? you cant loose things from inventory no?

[12:38] Ryu Darragh: Eating attachments is not flipping them

[12:39] TankMaster Finesmith: RLVa asertain is a debug message in RLVa relating to attachments

[12:39] Kadah Coba: Every log in I've had in the last few days has resulted in me not wearing what I logged off with, and often I'm wearing an object I havent worn in months.

[12:39] Rex Cronon: it shows in inventory just doesn't show on me, and gives error saying it can't fint asset

[12:39] Ryu Darragh: Only had trouble detaching and/or replacing avatar items, but just plain lagged out until relogging at a later time.

[12:39] Jessica Lyon: interesting, not sure if that's related Rex

[12:39] Ash Qin: Hm, Kadah, Deshima is Magnum by the way. :o

[12:39] Rex Cronon: if server sends nulls that might explain it

[12:39] Sebastean Steamweaver: Rex - that's been an issue that's been around for a long time, "Item missing from database"

[12:39] Andrew Linden: Interesting. Maybe I should add some logging info about the AttachmentItem info. Not sure what logging we've got there right now.

[12:39] Cummere Mayo: yes melvin you can

[12:40] Kadah Coba: Ash, I get it on LeTigre too

[12:40] Melvin Starbrook: :/

[12:40] Sebastean Steamweaver: Andrew, just putting this out there while we have time: I have a question concerning vehicles. Please note, this has -Absolutely- nothing to do with one avatar sitting on another. However, for uses such as applying friction or boost to movement, and general all-around physics manipulation for avatars, would it be feasible to allow attachments to enable vehicle physics controls on avatars?

[12:41] Cummere Mayo: um since im running 2.6 builds and getting cosntant repos yes it happens on 2.6 allot

[12:41] Sebastean Steamweaver: An example use would be providing realistic swimming for HUDs, etc.

[12:41] Jessica Lyon: So, this attachment bug is effecting ALL users in sl, on ALL viewers it would seem.

[12:41] Latif Khalifa: Yes

[12:41] Andrew Linden: Every login for you is broken Kadah?

[12:41] Jessica Lyon: IMHO it should be a top priority

[12:41] Latif Khalifa: agreed

[12:41] Andrew Linden: So your logins are a reproducible recipe.

[12:42] Stickman: Can't vehicle movement already be enabled in attachments? I remember someone talking about that. It just goes away immediately after it's called.

[12:42] Sebastean Steamweaver: When you enable it, it prevents you from flying at all, currently.

[12:42] Sebastean Steamweaver: It drops you to the ground.

[12:42] Ryu Darragh: <random> Linden question: Is it possible to figure out from region names and times what paths our connection is taking ? Is that logged?

[12:43] Kadah Coba: It seems that way Andrew, I log off wering X but when I log in I'm wearing a mix of X and Y and have random old object or 2 that havent been put on in over a month.

[12:43] Andrew Linden: No Ryu, we don't log the full network path.

[12:43] Liisa Runo: llVehicle stuff work when workn, but still cant rotate agent with it, and many things give wiled effects that dont match when done to prim

[12:43] Ryu Darragh: If not, can we figure that out from within the client?

[12:43] Liisa Runo: worn*

[12:43] Simon Linden: There's a bunch of code specifically for AVs when dealing with physics (like basic movement, flying, etc) so I'm _guessing_ that layering vehicle motion on top of that would lead to a bunch of problems

[12:43] Simon Linden: It sounds like there would be a lot of conflicts

[12:43] Kadah Coba: Its like the old v1 to v2 and back problem but I've gotten it going from 2.6 to 2.6 to 2.6

[12:43] Cummere Mayo: ryu ild suggest pinging tiggs on how to run a traceroute between the region and your client

[12:44] Andrew Linden: Not from within the SL client, but you might be able to do a network check to the simulator server.

[12:44] Ryu Darragh: I can do that, but not all of us are able to.

[12:44] Cummere Mayo: kadah yeah i can repo that too

[12:44] Sebastean Steamweaver: So there would be no way to, for example, impose friction-like effects on an avatar?

[12:44] Andrew Linden: Help --> About Second Life menu option will show the current DNS name of the host running the region you are in.

[12:44] Cummere Mayo: if i swtich from developer to developement build my outfit is changed :-/

[12:45] Andrew Linden: Really Cummere?

[12:45] Ryu Darragh: When we get wierdness, we can shapshot something and get to the bottom of this. I never have these wird problems, some here do. Why? Is it our connection, our machines, some router twixt us?

[12:45] Cummere Mayo: yeps

[12:45] Oskar Linden: did we switch to two conversations somehow?

[12:45] Oskar Linden: I'm getting confused

[12:45] Cummere Mayo: yes oskar

[12:45] Kadah Coba: Its effecting clothing at well

[12:45] Sebastean Steamweaver: I asked about enabling vehicle physics controls for avatars Oskar.

[12:45] Simon Linden: Sebastean - it would be a lot of work. Also, your shape in the phsyics engine looks nothing like your AV in the viewer

[12:45] Andrew Linden: The conversation jumps around.

[12:45] Cummere Mayo: yeah it also affects clothing. i think though that theres three seperate bugs all related

[12:46] Oskar Linden: I'd like to see some focus on narrowing down the attachments thing

[12:46] Jessica Lyon: what Cummere said ^

[12:46] Ryu Darragh shuts up for a while...

[12:46] Techwolf Lupindo: IRC addects can work two conversations at once. :-D

[12:46] Latif Khalifa: two? pfft n00b :P

[12:46] Kadah Coba: So far I've seen it happen on Magnum and LeTigre

[12:46] Cummere Mayo: going from viewer to viewer triggers one, detaching parts or all of an outfit then putting soemthign else on triggers another

[12:46] Andrew Linden: Well, all I need is a reproducible case, and maybe a custom build with extra logging and I could probably figure more out Oskar.

[12:46] Cummere Mayo: and fail to save when logging otu and back in a thrrid

[12:46] Ash Qin: And I've seen it to happen to Kadah, but it's not happened to me.

[12:47] Jessica Lyon: They may be seperate bugs, but all related to the attachment system. Thus suggesting .. needs a deep look into the attachment system

[12:47] TankMaster Finesmith: lol tech. so true

[12:47] Ash Qin: Despite relogging on the same sim

[12:47] Cummere Mayo: I put the repo of the clothing on the jira andrew

[12:47] Jessica Lyon: I've had it happen to me once, but no more

[12:47] Simon Linden: The attachment problem is ugly ... the current code and methods for multi-attachments vs. the attachment points is horrific ... the original feature was really a hack badly grafted onto the system, and it's been flaky ever since

[12:47] Kadah Coba: So far I can only repo it on this account.

[12:47] Cummere Mayo: its repo for me almsot 1005 now

[12:47] Cummere Mayo: *100%

[12:47] Melvin's Windup key: Melvin Starbrook's windup key has run out.

[12:47] Techwolf Lupindo: This sounds like a problem with some accounts, looks like a repro may have to involved an account also.

[12:47] Jessica Lyon: Simon, I figured that yes

[12:47] Qie Niangao: so I think the most profitable focus would be on whatever specifically got so much worse, recently. Does that include clothing, too, or just attachments?

[12:48] Cummere Mayo: clothing too

[12:48] Jessica Lyon: As I've been informed, it's primarily attachments that have gotten very bad in the last week.

[12:48] Melvin's Windup key whispers: Liisa Runo winds up Melvin Starbrook's key.

[12:48] Latif Khalifa: the most recent bug increase count has been only attachments

[12:48] Ryu Darragh: Thus my suggestion of a debug feature to log all sorts of goodies when we see MUTANT wierdness.

[12:48] Jessica Lyon: however I know there are wearable bugs too

[12:48] Latif Khalifa: the one that gor worse

[12:48] Jessica Lyon: right

[12:48] Latif Khalifa: got*

[12:48] Cummere Mayo: for me its both

[12:48] Ryu Darragh: (sort of like a crash log, but a one button thingy)

[12:48] Jessica Lyon: attachments is the big issue to focus on first IMO

[12:48] Latif Khalifa: NULL for item inventory UUID in object update is new

[12:48] Kadah Coba: And I can't simply wear the missing parts of the avatar I should have been wearing at login, they will not attach, I have to do detach all first.

[12:49] Melvin Starbrook: just voted the jira :)

[12:49] Oskar Linden: I'm wondering what might have made the issue worse last week

[12:49] Latif Khalifa: Andrew said he has been doing something with object updates name/value pairs-

[12:49] Cummere Mayo: if i take of part or all of an outfit including detachmetns, then wear a piece of clothing, old clothing and attachments come back...

[12:49] Andrew Linden: Latif, that is on Magnum only.

[12:49] Techwolf Lupindo: Is there still work going on getting http inventory fetch working and has any of that code snuck in that could be causing this problem?

[12:50] Jessica Lyon: Magnum seemed to be the RC that resolved the issue most frequently

[12:50] Cummere Mayo: if i log out and switch viewers between 2.6 versions clothing and attachments are both changed

[12:50] Latif Khalifa: Tech the bug in in the object update, not inventory

[12:50] Simon Linden: Techwolf - I don't think that's related

[12:50] Simon Linden: The name-value pairs sounds suspect; that's where some attachment data is stored

[12:50] Simon Linden: (or at least passed around)

[12:51] Cummere Mayo: what about clothing though simon?

[12:51] Andrew Linden: If Magnum is working more reliably than other channels then I suspect some sort of race condition... magnum has threaded-rez enabled and improved NameValue system under the hood.

[12:51] Ryu Darragh: Hey, if one of you boffins wants a guinie pig to test a logging build of a client, let me know. I'm 1500 miles from LL.

[12:51] Jessica Lyon: But was that pushed to main grid laslt week?

[12:51] Jonathan Yap: Are NV pairs cached client-side?

[12:51] Jessica Lyon: This is especially happening on main server

[12:51] Latif Khalifa: threaded rez

[12:51] Simon Linden: hmm, if it's true clothing, I don't think that's in the name-values

[12:52] Latif Khalifa: could threader rez be nulling some key/value paris

[12:52] Cummere Mayo: yeah pants shirts, tats, jackets

[12:52] Qie Niangao: (whatever change is triggering all the new reports could be something *improving*, tickling a race condition that always existed before)

[12:52] Latif Khalifa: sends object update before it knows invetnory item UUID=

[12:52] Latif Khalifa: ?

[12:52] Cummere Mayo: its ANY kind of wearable

[12:52] Jessica Lyon: Chalice suspected threaded rez too actually

[12:52] Jonathan Yap: The server should never send a null UUID

[12:52] Jessica Lyon: perhaps the server is failing to send anything

[12:52] Ryu Darragh: Only for a non-existant item?

[12:53] Latif Khalifa: Jon, regular objects don't have inventory item uuid in object updates, only attechmetns.

[12:53] Melvin's Windup key: Melvin Starbrook's windup key has run out.

[12:53] Latif Khalifa: (needed for viewer to be able to display item as worn i the invetnory)

[12:53] Jonathan Yap: ah, I see

[12:53] Melvin's Windup key whispers: Cummere Mayo winds up Melvin Starbrook's key.

[12:53] Melvin's Windup key whispers: Cummere Mayo winds up Melvin Starbrook's key.

[12:53] Melvin's Windup key whispers: Cummere Mayo winds up Melvin Starbrook's key.

[12:53] Melvin Starbrook: ((:))

[12:53] Zidonuke Ghost: heh

[12:54] Zidonuke Ghost: umm am I on a table? I'm on my iPhone client <.<

[12:54] Latif Khalifa: So if I was looking into why NULL UUID is sent for inventory id part of the object update, I'd look into threaded rez timing

[12:54] Ryu Darragh: Yep, Z

[12:54] Zidonuke Ghost: ._.

[12:55] Zidonuke Ghost: someone push me off D:!!!

[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[12:55] Ratchet Xevion: so we're watching the nauhgt bunny

[12:55] Moon Metty: i remember there's a bug where rezzed objects get a timestamp of zero unixtime, could that be related?

[12:55] Andrew Linden: It could be the threaded-rez stuff, but that is only enabled on Magnum atm.

[12:55] Ryu Darragh: Is Ok. No plates and forks for rabbit stew...

[12:55] Jessica Lyon: lol Ash

[12:55] Melvin Starbrook: lol

[12:55] Cummere Mayo: anyways: the bug i reported orriginally is defiantely clothing and attachments

[12:55] Andrew Linden: Oskar, I should probably look into this attachment problem today to see what I can find out.

[12:56] Ryu Darragh: Ok. Kadah oushed you off table, Z

[12:56] TankMaster Finesmith: hehe

[12:56] Jessica Lyon: Andrew, that would be fantastic

[12:56] Zidonuke Ghost: heh.

[12:56] Jessica Lyon: it's a serious problem

[12:56] Andrew Linden: "clothing and attachments"?

[12:56] Cummere Mayo: from the jira : Observed: with increasing regularity if you take off an item of clothing or attachment, or any combination thereof, and then attempt to wear another item of clothing, often the outfit will revert and re-equip the items removed... and sometime remove attachments that were put on between the removal of outfit parts and the equipping of a clothing piece.

It seems like this may be either some kind of caching failure or some kind of other failure of the viewer to properly update...

[12:56] Andrew Linden: I don't see how clothing could be affected, it is a list of textures, harvested from the wearables.

[12:56] Latif Khalifa: Jessica, you have a pretty solid repro, just attaching and detaching repeatedly?

[12:56] Oskar Linden: andrew, let me know what you need and I can have jess tell kitty to do it

[12:56] Oskar Linden: ;-)

[12:57] Jessica Lyon: Latif yes, except.. it's hard to find someone who has it happen regularly. I've only had it happen once

[12:57] Cummere Mayo: so i think its all wearables... not just attachments...

[12:57] Kadah Coba: Cummere, what Jira is that?

[12:57] Jessica Lyon: but certainly by the volume of complaints support has dealt with, it's effecting everyone

[12:57] Cummere Mayo: ild repo it right here but this is g land ><

[12:57] Jessica Lyon: The majority of our complaints has been attachments

[12:57] Ryu Darragh: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24804? , I think.

[12:57] Cummere Mayo: 24804

[12:57] JIRA-helper: [#VWR-24804] Taking off part or all of a clothing/attachment set and then wearing another item often causes the the removed item(s) to reapear

[12:57] Melvin Starbrook: mm having it often

[12:57] Draconis Neurocam: i wonder if since wearables are effected, it might be related to the issue where on anything after 2.4 clothing deforms arnt seen by others

[12:58] Whirly Fizzle: Its been rife in all my groups today, people windering why they can't detatch stuff etc

[12:58] Latif Khalifa: yep, I never seen it, but I never try to detach/attach stuff. My gf changes outfits every 15 min, and she's experienced it several times :P

[12:58] Rex Cronon: the weird thing is that my attachment problems started right after oskar asked for volunteers on beta. sometimes last year:)

[12:58] Whirly Fizzle: *wondering

[12:58] Kadah Coba: Thanks Ryu

[12:58] Oskar Linden: sure. blame it on me rex

[12:58] Andrew Linden: Ok so I need to try on lots of attachments.

[12:58] Cummere Mayo: and clothing ><

[12:59] Andrew Linden: I probably need to go shopping for prim-heavy outfits.

[12:59] Jessica Lyon: Andrew, and relog lots

[12:59] Oskar Linden: andrew when is the last time you attached a prim? :-)

[12:59] Melvin Starbrook: hihi need some help lol

[12:59] Techwolf Lupindo: Andrew, with your ARC of one, problems like this will never show up for you.

[12:59] Cummere Mayo: i think the relog is a seperate issue though jessica

[12:59] Techwolf Lupindo: :-)

[12:59] Ryu Darragh: Oops... don't try and run a Windows CE program in XP :P

[12:59] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, and keep attaching/detaching and eventually some object updates will go out with null inventory ietm uuid when they shouldn't

[12:59] Rex Cronon: right . u were comming after me to delete my attachments:)

[12:59] Ash Qin: I have to get going, this was an intersting office hour regardless.

[13:00] Melvin Starbrook: wear a ao, hugger, mystitool and dancehud too :)

[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[13:00] Kadah Coba: D: My chair logged off

[13:00] Andrew Linden: Ok. Yeah time for me to get to work.

[13:00] Moon Metty: thanks for the office user hour group meeting thingy, Andrew

[13:00] Zidonuke Ghost: fixxxx

[13:00] Jessica Lyon: Thanks for your time folks!

[13:00] Ryu Darragh: Have fun, Andrew

[13:00] Zidonuke Ghost: heh

[13:00] RedMokum Bravin: Bye all.

[13:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: All righty, thanks for the office hours

[13:00] Jessica Lyon: and good luck Andrew

[13:00] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.

[13:00] Qie Niangao: Thanks Andrew

[13:00] Rex Cronon: tc andrew

[13:01] Melvin Starbrook: bye andrew

[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith: take care andrew

[13:01] Cummere Mayo: k im going afk now :)

[13:01] Moon Metty: see you soon :)

[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith: the for coming, kelly, simon, oskar...

[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith: thx*

[13:01] Rex Cronon: tc everybody:)

[13:01] Kadah Coba: I'm gonna relog right now to see if it repros here

[13:01] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone, see you next time

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