Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.05.04
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List of Speakers
| Andrew Linden | Ash Qin | Falcon Linden |
| Ima Mechanique | Jonathan Yap | Kallista Destiny |
| Latif Khalifa | Moundsa Mayo | Nalates Urriah |
| Rex Cronon | Sahkolihaa Contepomi | Squirrel Wood |
| Vincent Nacon | Yuzuru Jewell |
Transcript
[16:06] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: It's an Andrew.
[16:06] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[16:06] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello.
[16:06] Kallista Destiny: Ave Andrew
[16:06] Rex Cronon: hi:)
[16:06] Ash Qin: Salutations
[16:06] Kallista Destiny: welcom to the Linden Legolan
[16:06] Andrew Linden: Hello, sorry I'm late.
[16:06] Rex Cronon: logoland:)
[16:06] Rex Cronon: hi andrew
[16:06] Vincent Nacon: it's only 6 minutes
[16:07] Latif Khalifa: Hi Andrew :)
[16:07] Yuzuru Jewell: I want snap it to my percel :D
[16:07] Moundsa Mayo: It's THE Andrew!
[16:07] Kallista Destiny: or sorry Lego is some Sweedish company
[16:07] Squirrel Wood: you are 10% late. therefore you have to type 20% faster. ^^
[16:07] Andrew Linden: I almost forgot it was so late in the day.
[16:07] Yuzuru Jewell: I want go to LEGOLand..
[16:08] Andrew Linden: I just got out of a brainstorm session with Falcon about some idea on how to overhaul the interestlist.
[16:08] Latif Khalifa: Lego is Danish
[16:08] Jonathan Yap: \o/
[16:08] Squirrel Wood: Koli, Ash, get your fuzzy bums over here. these lego seats are comfy :)
[16:08] Vincent Nacon: interest what list now?
[16:08] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: o.o;
[16:09] Squirrel Wood: interest list overhaul - great thing to do :)
[16:09] Rex Cronon: those legos have bumps on them. they will leave an impression on u:)
[16:09] Andrew Linden: For those who don't know: the "interestlist" is what we call the code/algorithm that the server uses to figure out what stuff is in view and that needs to be sent to your viewer
[16:09] Squirrel Wood: It never loads the right things first as is
[16:09] Andrew Linden: it needs some work
[16:09] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Ohhh
[16:09] Latif Khalifa: Are interest list going to become 3D?
[16:09] Kallista Destiny: Andrew is as alwasy the master of understatment
[16:10] Andrew Linden: We've been talking about how to fix it for a long time, but maybe we have a good idea on how to do it soon.
[16:10] Vincent Nacon: ah ok, just didn't know the code name
[16:10] Ash Qin: Quick question regarding the interest list, does it force objects that have media on prim faces to remain loaded in the viewer?
[16:10] Andrew Linden: Actually, I added some 3D culling in the pathfinding regions.
[16:10] Latif Khalifa: cool
[16:10] Andrew Linden: So if it is working there then yeah, it is basically 3D
[16:10] Rex Cronon: it should be easy. u should tell it to first load anything in a 16m radius, next 32 radius, next 64, ....
[16:10] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: I wonder if that means shadows cast from skyboxes won't be there anymore. >.>
[16:10] Andrew Linden: however, I didn't benchmark it... I'm not 100% sure my changes sped much up.
[16:11] Vincent Nacon: maybe not speed but at least a good lead
[16:11] Andrew Linden: Meanwhile, there is another team that is instrumenting the simulator and viewer to benchmark that stuff
[16:11] Rex Cronon: AFK...............................
[16:11] Rex Cronon: afk
[16:11] Kallista Destiny: Rex, it's MUCH more complex that that. OMG o(n^2) at least
[16:11] Andrew Linden: and eventually I should be able to compare pathfinding's performance
[16:11] Andrew Linden: as long as it isn't slower I'll be happy... there was a little bit of cleanup involved...
[16:12] Andrew Linden: well not a lot of code cleanup, but one little bit makes a bit more sense
[16:12] Nalates Urriah: Andrew, with the intrumenting be able to tell what TPV SpeedRez do to server load?
[16:12] Andrew Linden: anyways, in other news...
[16:12] Andrew Linden: Nalates, I don't understand that question.
[16:12] Andrew Linden: Could you rephrase it?
[16:13] Nalates Urriah: Several TPV have a speedrez built in that allow sone to enter the region with a short DD. Every 20 seconds it increases the draw distance. Does that help or hurt server performance?
[16:13] Andrew Linden: ah I see...
[16:14] Andrew Linden: Nalates, it probably helps right now, a little bit
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: it shouldn't make any difference in performance in logical sense
[16:14] Squirrel Wood: Likely helps as the server is not bombarded with loads of requests at first.
[16:14] Andrew Linden: in that it forces the simulator to sorta sort the data it sends
[16:14] Vincent Nacon: yeah maybe
[16:14] Nalates Urriah: thx
[16:15] Andrew Linden: so it doesn't have as much "unsent" stuff to wade through as it loads the region
[16:15] Andrew Linden: that would be my guess
[16:15] Andrew Linden: So we have a new dev on the server team, named Baker Linden.
[16:15] Moundsa Mayo: Cool!
[16:15] Vincent Nacon: and what his role?
[16:15] Squirrel Wood: what kind of bread will he be bakin' ?
[16:15] Nalates Urriah: oooow Baked goods
[16:15] Ash Qin: Rezzing has changed substantially for me ever since the changes from last request first served was switched to first request first served ages ago.
[16:16] Andrew Linden: and I've been helping Baker learn the ropes and pick some stuff to work on
[16:16] Moundsa Mayo: Assign him a baker's Dozen of tasks stat!
[16:16] Andrew Linden: small bugs, basically to start
[16:16] Ima Mechanique: stuff bread, have him bake cakes
[16:16] Vincent Nacon: ah work slave
[16:16] Jonathan Yap: I just saw Baker updated a jira -- thank you Baker and Andrew for svc-378 getting to Fix Pending
[16:16] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-378
[#SVC-378] Role 'Everyone' in new groups should not have ability "Pay group liabilities and receive group dividends"
[16:16] Andrew Linden: he's a C++ dev, so working on the simulator and dataserver
[16:16] Vincent Nacon: just an extra patcher
[16:16] Latif Khalifa: there are no requests, the client cannot tell me "give me list of objects", that's something sim decides. it computes "interest list" and sends it to the viewer.
[16:17] Andrew Linden: he was sorting through bugs and picked SVC-378
[16:17] Jonathan Yap: Everyone IM Baker with their thanks :)
[16:17] Andrew Linden: which is about group everybody role not having group payments/liabilities
[16:17] Andrew Linden: by default
[16:17] Andrew Linden: when you create a new group
[16:17] Vincent Nacon: not till he finished that bug
[16:17] Vincent Nacon: :P
[16:17] Andrew Linden: he fixed it
[16:18] Vincent Nacon: oh... that was quick
[16:18] Jonathan Yap: I know you were looking into that for some time Andrew, it's so nice to see it got some loving
[16:18] Ash Qin was speaking in reference to texture requests on the legacy protocols. Since then, rezzing has never been much of an issue for him.
[16:18] Andrew Linden: yeah, it will take a while to move through the pipeline, but he's off to a good start
[16:18] Vincent Nacon: huzzah!
[16:18] Andrew Linden: Simon is still on vacation, he should be back next week.
[16:18] Vincent Nacon: what's the point with Simon again?
[16:19] Andrew Linden: I'll be going on vacation not next week, but the week after that.
[16:19] Andrew Linden: That's all the news I've got.
[16:19] Vincent Nacon: ah alrighty
[16:20] Vincent Nacon: no one got topic?
[16:20] Andrew Linden: we need a topic
[16:20] Squirrel Wood: nuts.
[16:20] Andrew Linden: Baker needs suggestions for what to work on.
[16:20] Vincent Nacon: ok let's talk about lego if none other wise
[16:20] Ima Mechanique: cpa for sending LSL highlighting info :-)
[16:21] Ima Mechanique: cap for sending LSL highlighting file ;-)
[16:21] Ima Mechanique: damn lag
[16:21] Andrew Linden: hehe, I was thinking... "What is 'cpa'?"
[16:21] Moundsa Mayo: Lag doesn't MAKE typoes - it just slows them down.
[16:21] Ima Mechanique: Child Protection Agency :-)
[16:21] Squirrel Wood: If Baker finds himself with some free time to spare he can collect nuts and deliver them to me ^^
[16:21] Vincent Nacon: Computerized People Agency?
[16:22] Squirrel Wood: autocomplete for lsl!
[16:22] Ima Mechanique: Moundsa, the lag was I finished typing and it wasn't showing. didn't show on my screen until after I'd tryped and sent again ;-)
[16:22] Andrew Linden: Actually the LSL syntax download might be a good project. I'll run it by him.
[16:22] Andrew Linden takes notes.
[16:22] Ima Mechanique: Squirrel, autocomplete is something I'm contemplating for my next task
[16:23] Squirrel Wood: good.
[16:23] Squirrel Wood: every darned programming gui has it.
[16:23] Ima Mechanique: however, it won't be until after the new highlighting gets in and I've had time to catch up on other projects ;-)
[16:23] Moundsa Mayo: AGGHH, viewer lag is even more up-close and personal that server lag!
[16:23] Moundsa Mayo: Or network lag!
[16:23] Moundsa Mayo: Or payment lag!
[16:23] Moundsa Mayo: [tan]
[16:24] Moundsa Mayo: [than]
[16:24] Sahkolihaa Contepomi can tell the orb is having fun being reset.
[16:24] Ima Mechanique: speaking of the highlighting, I'm mostly finished on the first pass at it, just have a final tweak for the tooltips to do
[16:25] Ima Mechanique: I have to talk with Oz and decide on some specifics that need decisions on ;-)
[16:25] Squirrel Wood: I would make a scientific joke, but sadly all the good ones Argon.
[16:25] Falcon Linden: Booooo
[16:25] Squirrel Wood: Hello Falcon
[16:25] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: >_>
[16:25] Falcon Linden: terrible
[16:25] Ima Mechanique: oooook groaaaaan
[16:25] Vincent Nacon: yes it's Lego, be quiet
[16:25] Vincent Nacon: :P
[16:25] Kallista Destiny: shoot that Squirrel
[16:25] Squirrel Wood: can't help it if the good ones Argon :p
[16:26] Ima Mechanique: nut stuffed roast squirrel, a dish that half prepares itself
[16:26] Vincent Nacon: but welcome
[16:26] Falcon Linden: andrew, how do I send Squirrel to the cornfield? :P
[16:26] Squirrel Wood: lol
[16:26] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hahaha
[16:26] Jonathan Yap: Falcon, you go there and god-TP him
[16:26] Kallista Destiny gets her MP-18 our and check that the magazine is full
[16:26] Falcon Linden: well, I /could/ do that
[16:26] Falcon Linden: but I was hoping there'd be a "send user to cornfield" god command :P
[16:27] Vincent Nacon: I think Falcon just gave himself another Linden feature idea
[16:27] Andrew Linden: Yeah, you first have to go to the cornfield
[16:27] Kallista Destiny: there should be
[16:27] Squirrel Wood: You should offer sightseeing tours of said cornfield
[16:27] Andrew Linden: but these days the cornfield is off limits, and you can leave whenever you want
[16:27] Falcon Linden: yeah, but it would have made my point :)
[16:27] Jonathan Yap: I will write that viewer feature, but how to test it Falcon? :P
[16:27] Moundsa Mayo: With all the corn you can Attach?
[16:27] Kallista Destiny: send to cornfield...
[16:28] Squirrel Wood: teleport failed.
[16:28] Kallista Destiny: llSendToCornfield( key Avatar_to_send)
[16:28] Falcon Linden: Anyhow
[16:28] Falcon Linden: Heads-up that there's a bug in the LI changes we made that went out to Second Life RC PF two days ago
[16:29] Squirrel Wood activates proper group title..
[16:29] Andrew Linden: "LI changes" ? What does that mean?
[16:29] Falcon Linden: sculpts aren't limited to 2.0 streaming weight in that version (they behave like they did before), and there's some kind of issue with initial costs of scripted objects on rez being too low. Don't rely on either one, they'll get fixed next week
[16:29] Falcon Linden: LI == Land Impact
[16:29] Andrew Linden: oh right
[16:29] Falcon Linden: also, there are two breaking changes coming to the pathfinding API next week
[16:30] Jonathan Yap: Falcon, will the PF code get the attachment bugfix applied to it?
[16:30] Falcon Linden: which bug fix?
[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[16:30] Vincent Nacon: who care about the breaking when it never left the beta stage
[16:30] Jonathan Yap: the one where some mutex type thing goes wrong and attachments don't appear
[16:30] Falcon Linden: (1) llWanderWithin will no longer take a float for scale, it will take a vector of X, Y, and Z half-extents (i.e., it will wander from the specified origin by up to +/-vec.x in x, +/-vec.y in y, etc)
[16:30] Jonathan Yap: or maybe threads stall--Kelly fixed it
[16:30] Falcon Linden: ooh, yeah, I think that's fixed already in this version?
[16:31] Ash Qin: Vincent, probably the people beta testing the functionality - They would like to know why their stuff suddenly broke, as opposed to silent breakage I would imagine.
[16:31] Jonathan Yap: cool, thanks Falcon. I haven't noticed attachments having trouble today in the PF region I was going to
[16:31] Vincent Nacon: I know Ash... but again, it's beta....
[16:31] Falcon Linden: and (2) I've renamed CHARACTER_MAX_TURN_SPEED to CHARACTER_DESIRED_TURN_SPEED
[16:32] Rex Cronon: back
[16:32] Ash Qin: Vincent, point is, you don't want people reporting breakages that were meant to happen, so you inform them.
[16:32] Vincent Nacon: people shouldn't be too invested in beta progress untill it's out the door offically
[16:32] Falcon Linden: vincent: you're right, which is why I made the changes without asking users if it mattered. But I'm letting folks know so they don't file jrias :)
[16:32] Falcon Linden: jiras*
[16:32] Falcon Linden: ash: +1
[16:32] Vincent Nacon: yeah
[16:32] Falcon Linden: also, a reminder
[16:33] Falcon Linden: you have until next Thursday to comment on
[16:33] Falcon Linden: PATHBUG-95
[16:33] Falcon Linden: and PATHBUG-96
[16:33] Falcon Linden waits for the bot to name those
[16:33] Falcon Linden: is the bot broken?
[16:33] Andrew Linden: we don't have a working bot today
[16:33] Falcon Linden: bah
[16:33] Falcon Linden: Suggested Character Height
[16:33] Falcon Linden: Suggested Character Types
[16:33] Vincent Nacon: best to just set on the max height of a avatar
[16:33] Falcon Linden: if we don't get useful feedback by then, we're going to choose values randomly
[16:34] Falcon Linden: Vincent: if you have an opinion, follow the instructions on the jira :)
[16:34] Jonathan Yap: Falcon, since you require input from an EM type person with a working example your sample size is pretty limited
[16:34] Rex Cronon: why not give 2 choices for height, the max and the min?
[16:34] Ima Mechanique: Falcon, are the wiki pages for the LSL changes updated?
[16:34] Falcon Linden: There are at least 50 EMs who've opted in
[16:34] Falcon Linden: Rex: can't support two heights
[16:34] Falcon Linden: Ima: nope
[16:34] Falcon Linden: :P
[16:34] Vincent Nacon: "(a) A short character may not take the most optimal path" by going up the stairs because it's too short? huh?
[16:35] Falcon Linden: see this table right here, vincent?
[16:35] Falcon Linden: if we take your suggestion, no pathfinding creature will ever go under the table, even if it's a shorter path
[16:36] Falcon Linden: that's the trade off
[16:36] Rex Cronon: btw falcon when u said "Sculpties will have their streaming cost capped at 2.0" does that mean that in object build window will see one sculptie as 2 prims?
[16:36] Falcon Linden: no
[16:36] Rex Cronon: ok
[16:36] Falcon Linden: it means the "Download Weight" value will not exceed 2.0 for a sculpt in a "new accounting" build
[16:37] Squirrel Wood: as its essentially two textures ?
[16:37] Latif Khalifa: it's arbitrary
[16:37] Falcon Linden: not completely arbitrary
[16:37] Falcon Linden: sculpts do require more bandwidth than a basic prim
[16:37] Latif Khalifa: almost arbitrary
[16:38] Latif Khalifa: sculpts also get reused a lot so you have 50 objects with the same texture
[16:38] Falcon Linden: latif: shall I return it to the old scale dependent value that could go up to 40+? :)
[16:38] Jonathan Yap: but a sculpt texture is little different than textures on the walls of a shop
[16:38] Yuzuru Jewell: Does new accounting means the object of mesh?
[16:38] Latif Khalifa: you still going to get charged 2, for what is in esence 0.02
[16:38] Latif Khalifa: so pretty arbitrary worst case sceneario weight
[16:38] Falcon Linden: it means a linkset including a mesh object or including an object with a physics shape type other than none
[16:38] Falcon Linden: Latif: no, a worst-case scenario weight is what it was before.
[16:38] Rex Cronon: hmmm. so the sim will still see a sculptie as one prim even though its streaming cost will be 2.0?
[16:39] Falcon Linden: Latif: and nothing is "0.02". If I gave you an empty sim and let you put 15000*50 sculpts on it, you'd see real quick that that's not so.
[16:39] Latif Khalifa: Falcon, before it was insane, now it's a bit less insane. still no connecton to the actual cost
[16:39] Latif Khalifa: it takes no account of instances
[16:39] Falcon Linden: neither does our streaming system, sadly
[16:39] Latif Khalifa: yes
[16:39] Latif Khalifa: so it's arbitrary worst case one
[16:39] Falcon Linden: so it does relate to our cost.
[16:39] Falcon Linden: It's just unfortunate that we don't optimize that part of our system. If we do, we can reduce the cost at that time
[16:40] Vincent Nacon: couldn't the character's height just be llGetScale() to get its height when not provided in first place?
[16:40] Rex Cronon: a sculptie is not different than a texture. a very small texture. only 1024 pixesl
[16:40] Latif Khalifa: "worst case" == "assume every sculpt and mesh is downloaded for each object rezzes"
[16:40] Falcon Linden: I think you're misunderstanding the problem, Vincent
[16:40] Rex Cronon: pixels*
[16:40] Vincent Nacon: maybe
[16:40] Latif Khalifa: in reality that rarely happens
[16:40] Falcon Linden: Vincent: the height that's being discussed in the jira is the height that the navmesh is built for
[16:41] Falcon Linden: the character can be set to have a height between 0.5 and 10m, I think. But if the height of the character doesn't match the height of the mesh, you'll see the artifacts I described in the jira
[16:41] Vincent Nacon: so it's not that dynamic then?
[16:41] Falcon Linden: no, the mesh does not dynamically handle height
[16:42] Falcon Linden: we initially considered modifying the system to do so but determined it would take at least a few months
[16:42] Squirrel Wood: so if there are two objects with different height, the navmesh will be rebuilt over and over again ?
[16:42] Falcon Linden: squirrel: no. The navmesh is built based on a height that's hard coded.
[16:42] Falcon Linden: The question is what height should that be
[16:42] Squirrel Wood: k
[16:42] Rex Cronon: 1000m:)
[16:42] Falcon Linden: all characters, regardless of height, use that one navmesh
[16:42] Jonathan Yap: Falcon, you are just going to have to pick 1.0m or something
[16:42] Rex Cronon: that way almost anything can use it
[16:42] Falcon Linden: the resulting path may or may not be correct or optimal if the heights aren't equal
[16:42] Vincent Nacon: well here's an idea...
[16:42] Falcon Linden: Jonathan: 0.47m
[16:43] Squirrel Wood: then use the average height of all active characters within a given time slot ?
[16:43] Rex Cronon: why not let sim owner set that height?
[16:43] Andrew Linden: if the height is too big then small characters won't be able to navigate under roofs... the navmesh will consider those areas unaviable
[16:43] Vincent Nacon: if possible... just get statistical data on average avatar height across SL and go with that
[16:43] Moundsa Mayo: Don't really want continual rebuilding of the navmesh.
[16:43] Ash Qin: Vincent, wtf
[16:43] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!
[16:43] Jonathan Yap: Rex, because regions connect to each other and you want consistent results
[16:44] Andrew Linden: if the default height is too small then the navmesh will consider small rooms navigable, but large characters will try and fail to go there
[16:44] Falcon Linden: Jonathan: exactly
[16:44] Falcon Linden: Moundsa: also correct.
[16:44] Vincent Nacon: I know Falcon want to hear creator's take on it but how can they really answer that?
[16:44] Ash Qin: Vincent, I don't understand, what does this have to do with avatar heights?
[16:44] Falcon Linden: Ash: also astute point. Right now avatars can't use pathfinding
[16:44] Kallista Destiny: it has to do with the height of the NC
[16:44] Kallista Destiny: NPC
[16:44] Vincent Nacon: oh I know
[16:44] Rex Cronon: if u have a sim for tinies and one for giants side by side there will be inconsistenies
[16:44] Jonathan Yap: Large characters trying to get into small places could at least have some scripting to deal with that
[16:45] Vincent Nacon: but what are they going to be making with?
[16:45] Vincent Nacon: mostly people anyway
[16:45] Falcon Linden: jonathan: actually, that would be very hard to write a script to handle
[16:45] Falcon Linden: vincent: pets?
[16:45] Falcon Linden: snakes?
[16:45] Ash Qin: I guess the question is, can this option not be made available to the land owner/content creator some how?
[16:45] Falcon Linden: wild rodents?
[16:45] Squirrel Wood: bed bugs!
[16:45] Falcon Linden: head crabs?
[16:45] Vincent Nacon: yeah but more likely people because of army RPs
[16:45] Falcon Linden: ash: someday probably
[16:45] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Aaaaahhhh, head crabs!
[16:45] Vincent Nacon: and zombies
[16:45] Moundsa Mayo: Birds!
[16:45] Squirrel Wood: zombines!
[16:45] Falcon Linden: but not at initial release because we'd like pathfinding to get its footing with some standards for compatibility in place
[16:45] Moundsa Mayo: Well, penguins and kiwis.
[16:46] Kallista Destiny: Like the chap standing behind me
[16:46] Squirrel Wood: then use .25m ? that should not be too small, yet allow for some close quarters navigation
[16:46] Vincent Nacon: I'm talking about the most likely over used figure in pathfinding would be people than animal
[16:46] Falcon Linden: Vincent: unfortunately, there's no evidence to support that hypothesis
[16:47] Vincent Nacon: while most animals would just wander around aimlessly
[16:47] Vincent Nacon: oh I know
[16:47] Falcon Linden: Oh, and by the way, on the previous topic, what I'd like to see someday is a button on the viewer that says "Make this linkset into a mesh" -- and we make it into a mesh on the server.
[16:47] Falcon Linden: LODs and all
[16:47] Vincent Nacon: that's why you won't get any good answer in that JIRA
[16:47] Yuzuru Jewell: Is the object linked only suclpted prims with not none phisics costs growing double LI?
[16:47] Falcon Linden: The point of the jira is to get people to make stuff and see how it behaves in their regions
[16:47] Falcon Linden: that /is/ evidence
[16:47] Squirrel Wood: What I would absolutely love to see is the ability to upload text files into notecards :p
[16:48] Falcon Linden: yuzuru: no. LI will not increase above what it would by on the main SL channel if it used the same accounting mode
[16:48] Ima Mechanique: Squirrel, manually, or automated?
[16:48] Falcon Linden: i.e., a linkset brought from main channel to Second Life RC PF will stay the same or decrease in cost
[16:49] Rex Cronon: how would u fit a big tank through a hole of size .25 m?
[16:49] Ash Qin: Rez, with bruteforce, clearly
[16:49] Jonathan Yap: No matter what height number is picked there are going to be some things that get stuck I think
[16:50] Ash Qin: Rex, kind of like the cool aid man.
[16:50] Vincent Nacon: with anti-matter
[16:50] Kallista Destiny: Tank, smash!
[16:50] Rex Cronon: we need black holes:)
[16:50] Vincent Nacon: no we don't
[16:50] Falcon Linden: jonathan: an object that is made with the standard height or smaller won't get stuck
[16:50] Andrew Linden: yes, Jonathan is right.
[16:51] Squirrel Wood: May the 4th be with you!
[16:51] Vincent Nacon: yeah, that's why you need to think differently
[16:51] Falcon Linden: but it might not find an optimal path if it's smaller than that height
[16:51] Ash Qin: 5th here.
[16:51] Vincent Nacon: well let me point this way Falcon.
[16:51] Kallista Destiny: No but it will find a path
[16:51] Andrew Linden: er... the tradeoff is: stuck things (think it is naviable when it is not) vs cannot navigate into spaces that are obviously navigable
[16:51] Falcon Linden: anyhow, the point of creating the jira was to avoid having this argument here where no one (including us) has any good evidence
[16:52] Falcon Linden: Absent any constructive feedback, I'll probably choose the max avatar physics height....or whatever I get from 10*llFrand() on the first call.
[16:52] Vincent Nacon: Falcon, I know you said getting a list of waypoint in vectors wasn't possible because it could change as moving objectionable path but what about the first waypoint? It might help with small character with better direction when a script knew what the character wanted to go before it goes
[16:53] Squirrel Wood: could you store the height of the navigable space and when some larger entity wants to nav you simply compare its height to these parts and dynamically tell it whether a space is navigable or not ?
[16:53] Kallista Destiny: Well person size objectsare on the order of 1.5-2.5 M tall
[16:53] Falcon Linden: you mean to let the character turn or...?
[16:53] Falcon Linden: squirrely: turns out that's very hard to do with the way the navmesh is set up
[16:53] Kallista Destiny: ((in SL))
[16:53] Falcon Linden: kallista: I know. I'll check the code for a definitive number.
[16:53] Rex Cronon: u know what. choose the highest height possible. we can alway block parts of the hole to make it smaller
[16:53] Squirrel Wood: aww. but it would be a viable solution if you can get some slave workers to do the job?
[16:53] Vincent Nacon: to have script guide the character little better with fixed nav position instead of using other method when it knew it was about to make a mistake or not
[16:54] Falcon Linden: rex: that would be 4096m.
[16:54] Rex Cronon: if u choose too small will be very hard to big thing to get through
[16:54] Rex Cronon: i am all for 4096:)
[16:54] Falcon Linden: all right, time to move
[16:54] Falcon Linden: on
[16:54] Falcon Linden: feedback can go to jira :)
[16:54] Squirrel Wood: could the character use raycasting to scout ahead if a passage is navigable ?
[16:54] Falcon Linden: squirrel: it could, to some degree.
[16:55] Falcon Linden: and we considered doing a bundle of raycasts on the server code to check things like that. Turns out it gets fairly expensive given the content in the region :)
[16:55] Jonathan Yap: It could also poll it's position and if it expects to be moving and is not then do something to correct the matter
[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[16:55] Vincent Nacon: that didn't sound very um...
[16:55] Squirrel Wood: what about short rays? like, a meter or two ahead ?
[16:55] Rex Cronon: 10m sounds ok
[16:55] Falcon Linden: jonathan: that's correct
[16:56] Vincent Nacon: ...optimal?
[16:56] Falcon Linden: and is how I expect people to get around the issue. They can also use collision events rather than polling for movement
[16:56] Falcon Linden: 4mins left
[16:57] Vincent Nacon: 3 minutes till these legos melt
[16:58] Andrew Linden: It has been a while since we've ended a user group early
[16:58] Squirrel Wood: how about an invisible "shield" around the character (server side) that is used for checks in tight spaces and if it collides that path is regarded non navigable ?
[16:58] Squirrel Wood: could be a simple sphere
[16:58] Squirrel Wood: or a box
[16:58] Jonathan Yap: Sounds like a lot of work
[16:59] Falcon Linden: squirrely: actually, we wanted some kind of sensor system that used physics instead of the very slow llSensor but didn't have time to implement it. Some day, though...
[16:59] Rex Cronon: i think there r already objects that use volumedetect to that, squirrel
[16:59] Kallista Destiny: sphere has difficult physics box is easier
[16:59] Rex Cronon: to do that*
[17:00] Falcon Linden: actually, sphere is easier than a box, but an axis aligned box is even easier still.
[17:00] Jonathan Yap: Falcon, once PF is released and whatever bugs are discovered and fixed is there a plan in place for phase 2 of improvements?
[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[17:00] Squirrel Wood: Either way you got some ideas to chew on ^^
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: what bout axis aligned sphere?
[17:00] Vincent Nacon: :P
[17:00] Falcon Linden: jonathan: my free time? :)
[17:00] Jonathan Yap: heh, that's what I thought :)
[17:00] Squirrel Wood: free time? Are you even allowed to have such a thing ?
[17:00] Falcon Linden: all right folks, have a good weekend!
[17:01] Falcon Linden: Squirrel: shh, don't tell anyone
[17:01] Squirrel Wood: ^^
[17:01] Jonathan Yap: thanks Lindens!
[17:01] Rex Cronon: u 2 falcon. tc
[17:01] Falcon Linden: actually, I'll create a paypal account
[17:01] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
[17:01] Moundsa Mayo: Andrew, Falcon, thanks for your time and hard work!
[17:01] Falcon Linden: y'all mail me money and I'll think about implementing your feature on the side ;)
[17:01] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you!
[17:01] Falcon Linden: (Kidding!)
[17:01] Nalates Urriah: Thx Andrew Falocn
[17:01] Vincent Nacon: it seem to work for Qarl
[17:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Enjoy your weekend, Falcon & Andrew.
[17:01] Rex Cronon: lol falcon. people might just do it
[17:01] Vincent Nacon: he's gone
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