User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2007 10 16

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Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[16:32] Kooky Jetaime: AubreTEC Blitz doesn't work
[16:32] Mathieu Basiat: sidewinder, does it matter if we give our vehicles to andrew here, or in havok beta?
[16:32] Kooky Jetaime: its just irritating
[16:32] Seifert Surface: hi andrew
[16:32] Kooky Jetaime: Hi andrew
[16:33] Andrew Linden: hello
[16:33] Va Roffo: yes, just exploiting an anomaly in the old Havok engine
[16:33] Rex Cronon: hi andrew
[16:33] Va Roffo: hi, andrew
[16:33] Sidewinder Linden: let's ask... probably doesn't matter too much but actually is easier to drop them in the beta grid
[16:33] Sidewinder Linden: i think
[16:33] Sidewinder Linden: hi andrew
[16:33] Mathieu Basiat: k
[16:33] Andrew Linden: What are we talking about today?
[16:33] Kooky Jetaime: Me and Ryozu tested my Aubretec black widow, its practically.. useless now
[16:33] Teravus Ousley: Hey Andrew :)
[16:33] Seifert Surface: i want to talk about that blog post
[16:33] Va Roffo: am i in the way, here
[16:33] Ryozu Yamamoto: Which blog post?
[16:33] Kooky Jetaime: isn't the advantage to drop here so they transfer over Sidewinder?
[16:33] Andrew Linden: Which blog post Seifert?
[16:33] Seifert Surface: the one made by michael linden on friday
[16:33] Sidewinder Linden: well ok - let's start with one... ok?
[16:33] Seifert Surface: about megaprims
[16:34] Andrew Linden: Oh ok.
[16:34] Sidewinder Linden: andrew - quick question about vehicles - whether they should send samples to you here or on the beta grid?
[16:34] Andrew Linden opens a browser to read the post.
[16:34] Teravus Ousley: heh, I figured that would generate a lot of buzz
[16:34] Kooky Jetaime: Megaprims :)
[16:34] Seifert Surface: i know a lot of people who are very worried
[16:34] Ryozu Yamamoto: Ah, that
[16:34] Seifert Surface: people are organising protest letters and etc etc
[16:34] Ryozu Yamamoto: http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/10/12/the-big-prim-problem/
[16:34] Sidewinder Linden: ok can we hold on the megaprims for a sec?
[16:34] Teravus Ousley: Yes.. way back.. I was the one who asked at the town meeting about that :)..
[16:34] Kooky Jetaime: we can
[16:34] Teravus Ousley holds off :)
[16:35] Ryozu Yamamoto: I'm sure there's protests, buzz, and all that, but honestly
[16:35] Seifert Surface: the blog comments are of course filled, and theres a forum thread over 500 posts long about it
[16:35] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's because no one knows anything, and nothing's been decided
[16:35] Andrew Linden: Oh I see... the post was more of a "what do you think bout megaprims?" question.
[16:35] Kooky Jetaime: I just didn't like the fact that comments were asked for on the blog like that
[16:35] Mathieu Basiat: *
[16:35] Seifert Surface: right, but people of course interpret as a "oh no, linden have decided already and theyre going to vanish"
[16:35] Ryozu Yamamoto: Yeah =/
[16:35] Kooky Jetaime: Your blog on the other hand was Perfect Andrew
[16:35] Seifert Surface: the lack of information is really not good
[16:35] Ryozu Yamamoto: We all know that won't happen
[16:35] Andrew Linden: If people have broken vehicles then yes, the easiest thing for me is if they just give me a copy on the Havok4 preiew.
[16:36] Mathieu Basiat: k
[16:36] Mathieu Basiat: ty
[16:36] Ryozu Yamamoto: IBM would have a hissy fit
[16:36] Ryozu Yamamoto: lol
[16:36] Andrew Linden: the funny thing about that blog post...
[16:36] Seifert Surface: we know... but the population doesnt
[16:36] Kooky Jetaime: not yours Andrew, you ddin't have one.. Hamilton's
[16:36] Mathieu Basiat: one last note...could we get a water vehicle area to leave stuff, like the area for land vehicles?
[16:36] Andrew Linden: is that before they posted it they eailed out some a proposed version that said "This is what is going to happen to megaprims..."
[16:37] Kooky Jetaime: he commented, then said when and where to comment back in a way that will let everyone (or a good majoirty) be heard as opposed to the first 100
[16:37] Sidewinder Linden: can we rewind fora sec - a post by hamilton?
[16:37] Andrew Linden: and someone ( forget who) replied, "We should make a post where we ask for feedback about megaprims, instead of telling them what we're going to do about them."
[16:37] Sidewinder Linden: are you talking about the inventory loss one?
[16:37] Kooky Jetaime: yep
[16:37] Andrew Linden: And so the post was without info.
[16:37] Kooky Jetaime: the "Communication" section
[16:38] Seifert Surface: that was my guess for why it was posted like that
[16:38] Ryozu Yamamoto: I'd say, the real question then is, what IS going to happen, but on the other hand, That's politics and I don't want any part of that. Heh.
[16:38] Teravus Ousley: Ah, :) I'm sure that there is a split in the community about them, as well as a split in Lindens on them :)
[16:38] Sidewinder Linden: past the process question... it seemed that the idea of a size limit did make sense to folks - do you agree in general?
[16:39] Kooky Jetaime: yep
[16:39] Ryozu Yamamoto: Yes and no
[16:39] Kitto Flora: What is the present situation with megaprim future use?? Is it that *IF* enough users really want some Megaprim, LL development will do the extra work to make them properly functional?
[16:39] Rex Cronon: is the size limit 256x256x256?
[16:39] Ryozu Yamamoto: Reasonable for now, definatly, but for the future expansion of SL, probably not so much
[16:39] Ryozu Yamamoto: Ah, about that
[16:39] Mathieu Basiat: i think it should be a sink
[16:39] Mathieu Basiat: buy them
[16:39] Andrew Linden: There was a funny email thread internally where someone asked "What is up with megaprims?"
[16:39] Andrew Linden: and there were a bunch of responses
[16:39] Teravus Ousley: I agree on the largest ones >256m3 should probably be removed.
[16:39] Kooky Jetaime: Personally I'd love the size limit to be a scale volume limit as opposed to a hard x^3 limit
[16:40] Ryozu Yamamoto: Actually, guys
[16:40] Andrew Linden: finally I waded in and said "This is what i'm going to do about megaprims"
[16:40] Seifert Surface: people have mentioned uses for the huge ones, for changing the look of the sea out to the horizon
[16:40] Rex Cronon: why not make anything above max size phantoms?
[16:40] Andrew Linden: and someone else said "We shouldn't be saying what we're going to do about megparims until we come to an agreement internally."
[16:40] Mathieu Basiat: and transparent, lol
[16:40] Kooky Jetaime: sometimes big prims that are solid are useful
[16:40] Andrew Linden: Here's the deal...
[16:40] Teravus Ousley listens
[16:40] Andrew Linden: Most of the people at LL think megaprim content is cool.
[16:40] Ryozu Yamamoto: Let me give you some perspective. I deal with greifers all the time, help out a group that fights them (The JLU) and megaprims are a huge greifer tool
[16:41] Andrew Linden: Breaking content is Very Bad
[16:41] Ryozu Yamamoto: But there's only 1 megaprim they ever use
[16:41] Kooky Jetaime: Andrew - IMHO, if LL decides to accept megaprims moving forward, we need to have them editable.. don't lock us to the existings, up the scale in the editor so we can make them more to what we need
[16:41] Ryozu Yamamoto: The huge equillateral square ones.
[16:41] Kooky Jetaime: or the 1024x1024x.1 (Infinate checkerboard)
[16:41] Andrew Linden: Currently there are a bunch of big estate owners who use megaprims to make cool content (IBM, greenies, Electric Sheep, etc)
[16:41] Andrew Linden: There is no way anyone is going to be able to nerf megaprims.
[16:41] Kooky Jetaime: (BTW, I've aquired a copy of all the existing megaprims so can whip them out if someone is wanting to see one...))
[16:42] Andrew Linden: I know because I tried several months ago.
[16:42] Kitto Flora: Ultimatley, Uses of megaprims is not the driving force. SL does work without - they are not really needed. A nice 'expansion' - so - what counts #1 is what the havok4 timescale version of SL can *support* in the way of megaprims.
[16:42] Kooky Jetaime: nerf?
[16:42] Seifert Surface: there are tons of examples in the blog comments and 570 post forum thread
[16:42] Rex Cronon: i can use 1 mega-prim sculptie to make the floor for 1 entire sim
[16:42] Mathieu Basiat: is there a way to meake them unattachable?
[16:42] Kooky Jetaime: the SS Galaxy is 1 example of mega prim usage.. not a lot of them but they are there
[16:42] Ryozu Yamamoto: Kooky: Nerf is an oldschool term in Online Games meaning tot ake something, and make it less effective
[16:42] Seifert Surface: rex: currently the physics wouldnt work well for that
[16:43] Kooky Jetaime: ah
[16:43] Andrew Linden: This is what I expect to happen to megaprims... this is what Michael was going to say before somone asked him to nerf his post...
[16:43] Ryozu Yamamoto: Such as turning your uber-cool sword of dragon slaying into a foam nerf weapon.
[16:43] Teravus Ousley: On the positive side, It *would* be nice if there was some server side code to allow prim created by the banned account, Gene Replacement, to be resized over the limits :)
[16:43] Ryozu Yamamoto: XD
[16:43] Andrew Linden: I expect megaprims > 256 meters to be clamped to 256 meters on those sides that are > 256.
[16:43] Ryozu Yamamoto: Say Andrew, did you happen to work for SOE/Everquest at some point? XD
[16:43] Andrew Linden: Never Ryozu, I came here from grad school
[16:43] Mathieu Basiat: lets stay on topic
[16:44] Andrew Linden: (UW, Space plasma physics)
[16:44] Ryozu Yamamoto: Good, you didn't miss anything, ;)
[16:44] Kooky Jetaime: space plasma physics.. whoo sounds fun
[16:44] Andrew Linden: here's another funny thing about megaprims...
[16:44] Andrew Linden: I just gave a SLDev Forum talk today
[16:44] Andrew Linden: and someone asked me about megaprims
[16:45] Andrew Linden: I said "We're going to clamp them to 256 m"... because I hadn't read the vague blog post.
[16:45] Rex Cronon: it would be interesting to use megaprims and volume detect toghether:)
[16:45] Andrew Linden: And... that is what I've been planning on doing to megaprims in Havok4.
[16:45] Andrew Linden: So.... here is a discussion point:
[16:45] Rex Cronon: and allow to wear them as attachments
[16:45] Seifert Surface: with the parcel/prim collision check stuff
[16:45] Teravus Ousley remembers the comments about active megaprim causing the collision detector to treat all active objects on the same 'island'
[16:45] Andrew Linden: Does anyone have any examples as to why we should have megaprims with sides > 256?
[16:46] Andrew Linden: Please state your reasons here so I can demolish them.
[16:46] Seifert Surface: people are using the huge flat ones to change the look of the sea
[16:46] Sidewinder Linden: ;)
[16:46] Va Roffo: lol
[16:46] Seifert Surface: on isolated islands
[16:46] Kooky Jetaime: the interesting things about megaprims and physics
[16:46] Sidewinder Linden: umm there is another project that will change the sea in interesting ways too ;)
[16:46] Mathieu Basiat: that still doesn't need more than 256
[16:46] Mathieu Basiat: lol
[16:46] Kooky Jetaime: if we allow them, can we fix this issue?
[16:46] Andrew Linden: What issue?
[16:46] Kooky Jetaime: I'm not falling
[16:46] Seifert Surface: eg to get an infinite desert or something
[16:46] Ryozu Yamamoto: lol hollow
[16:47] Seifert Surface: thats the only good use ive seen
[16:47] Andrew Linden: oh hrm... a visual effect
[16:47] Seifert Surface: and ive read most of that huge forum thread
[16:47] Mathieu Basiat: just use 4 256 256
[16:47] Ryozu Yamamoto: Seifert: I'd say, as nice as that effect would be, it's not worth the hassle
[16:47] Ryozu Yamamoto: On the other hand
[16:47] Seifert Surface: matheiu - it wont go out to the horizon
[16:47] Seifert Surface: ryozu: id agree
[16:47] Ryozu Yamamoto: I honestly don't see the huge > 256 sided prims used for griefing
[16:47] Rex Cronon: u need to be able to link 2 megaprims
[16:47] Mathieu Basiat: that 128 draw distance
[16:47] Seifert Surface: but it is a use
[16:48] Andrew Linden: Seifert, infinite horizons for single regions may be possible to do...
[16:48] Kooky Jetaime: Andrew - how about upping the max prim size to say..20x20 or better, 40x40
[16:48] Seifert Surface: other than that, no, nothing useful over 256
[16:48] Ryozu Yamamoto: 128? Hehe, 512 when I'm on a private island
[16:48] Andrew Linden: I don't think it is enough to convince me to change my mind.
[16:48] Ryozu Yamamoto: Seriously though, greifers
[16:48] Kooky Jetaime: then give everyone a chance to use them
[16:48] Andrew Linden: megaprims are currently in a half-supported state...
[16:48] Rex Cronon: actually there are some bullets that are used to kill those that hide underground
[16:48] Ryozu Yamamoto: They use 256^3 meagaprims
[16:48] Andrew Linden: that is, we've been ignoring the problem
[16:48] Kooky Jetaime: make it a "Debug Settings" option to increase max scale size
[16:48] Seifert Surface: id agree, there should be other ways to acheive the horizon change
[16:48] Ryozu Yamamoto: Or 100^3 prims
[16:48] Andrew Linden: and we don't officially support them
[16:49] Sidewinder Linden: seifert - what sort of horizon change are you looking to do?
[16:49] Andrew Linden: There is no way I'm going to increase the max size of prims until I solve the "my neighbor's object overlaps my parel" problem.
[16:49] Seifert Surface: im just reporting what others are using it for
[16:49] Kooky Jetaime: Andrew - Speaking of
[16:49] Seifert Surface: its graphical
[16:49] Kooky Jetaime: we were going to come and ask how H4 can help us with that
[16:49] Kooky Jetaime grins
[16:49] Seifert Surface: to cover up the sea with some texture
[16:49] Sidewinder Linden: ahh.... you may want to look at the windlight firstlook when it reappears...
[16:49] Andrew Linden: yes, Seifert was giving an example of why someone might want >256 meters.
[16:49] Kitto Flora: Adrew - might there be a way to deal with the encroachment problem?
[16:50] Ryozu Yamamoto: You know though
[16:50] Ryozu Yamamoto: I'd rather see 1024x1024 sized sims (Same prim count, just more "Virtual" real estate
[16:50] Andrew Linden: Kitto Flora, I have a plan on how to deal with the encroachment problem.
[16:50] Kooky Jetaime: Can we hear it Andrew?
[16:50] Mathieu Basiat: bounding box?
[16:50] Andrew Linden: The plan is to enable object-parcel collision queries
[16:50] Kooky Jetaime: Ah
[16:50] Ryozu Yamamoto: IE: Pretend other parcels are big prims heh
[16:50] Seifert Surface: also explained here: http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/10/04/second-life-havok4-beta-preview-temporarily-offline/#comment-491767
[16:51] Andrew Linden: and to make the queries whenever parcel owner wants to move/return an object.
[16:51] Kooky Jetaime: well, not move
[16:51] Kooky Jetaime: just return
[16:51] Andrew Linden: If the object collides with their parcel then the parcel owner can move or return.
[16:51] Kooky Jetaime: people keep saying give move rights
[16:51] Kooky Jetaime: don't create a new problem
[16:51] Ryozu Yamamoto: Actually, move, yes
[16:51] Kitto Flora: SO its a retroactive solution only?
[16:51] Kooky Jetaime: don't move
[16:51] Kooky Jetaime: I can't move your prim on my parcel
[16:51] Ryozu Yamamoto: No no, say, I'm positining sometihing
[16:51] Andrew Linden: Basically a permissions override -- obeying the the parcel settings over the object movement settings.
[16:51] Kooky Jetaime: so why should I be able to do it on yours?
[16:52] Ryozu Yamamoto: Say I'm moving a wall
[16:52] Ryozu Yamamoto: It'd be nice if that wall would "stop moving" when it hits the parcel boundry
[16:52] Andrew Linden: Initially this would be a manual thing... the neighbor could put the object back... the simulator would not reject their placement
[16:52] Ryozu Yamamoto: But maybe that one's a bit much to ask for.
[16:52] Kooky Jetaime: Hmm like it already does when it bumps against no entry land?
[16:52] Kitto Flora: I'd say thats not a good solution.
[16:52] Andrew Linden: and the parcel owner would have to manually fix every encroachment... but they _could_ fix it.
[16:52] Kitto Flora: Better if you checked and denied during placement.
[16:53] Seifert Surface: just ability to return would be consistent
[16:53] Andrew Linden: Kitto, that was stage (1)
[16:53] Kooky Jetaime: Andrew - What about adding an opton to the About Land / Objects tab that for "Encroached"
[16:53] Rex Cronon: if the MP is bigger that its owner's parcel, than u r moving it over to next parcel
[16:53] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's true though, just having it count for return/auto-return would work
[16:53] Kooky Jetaime: So you can highlight them all
[16:53] Kooky Jetaime: and / or return them all / return by person
[16:53] Andrew Linden: stage (2) would be to provide real-time enforcement of restrictive parcel settings
[16:53] Seifert Surface: currently if someone rezzes an object on my land, i can return it but not move it. if they then move it so that the object overlaps the boundary between their parcel and mine, then i can move it/ that seems strange
[16:53] Andrew Linden: however, many people have suggested that real-time enforcement may not be necessary
[16:53] Kooky Jetaime: Seifert - thats what I was saying
[16:54] Kooky Jetaime: Andrew - Real Time enforcement already exists
[16:54] Kooky Jetaime: "Object Entry" Disabled.
[16:54] Andrew Linden: I tend to disagree... but we could add a new parcel setting that is "paranoid keep you stuff off my land" checkbox
[16:54] Andrew Linden: off by default
[16:54] Andrew Linden: and enforce it when it is enabled
[16:54] Teravus Ousley laughs
[16:54] Ryozu Yamamoto: Kooky: Does that work by bounding box or object center?
[16:54] Kooky Jetaime: object Center
[16:54] Incredible Tomorrow: lol
[16:54] Kooky Jetaime: ok.
[16:54] Kooky Jetaime: touche
[16:54] Ryozu Yamamoto: Well, now we just make it bounding box
[16:54] Andrew Linden: stage (3) would be to provide real-time UI feedback when the object placements would fail
[16:55] Mathieu Basiat: bounce
[16:55] Kitto Flora: Having seen the quatity of complaints generated by meer TREES encroaching, megaprims would be a real headache.
[16:55] Andrew Linden: but IF we do this, then it will not be rolled out as a monolithic project
[16:55] Kitto Flora: More like are .. I've given up on reporting them
[16:55] Andrew Linden: but in stages
[16:55] Ryozu Yamamoto: Heh
[16:55] Rex Cronon: why not just check before rezzing if the object can be contained on the owners parcel?
[16:55] Ryozu Yamamoto: I have one question then
[16:56] Kooky Jetaime: Rex has an point
[16:56] Kitto Flora: Rex - thats his stage 3?
[16:56] Andrew Linden: we do not yet have object-parcel collision queries
[16:56] Teravus Ousley: I'm of the mind that 'return' rights + whatever perms are on the object would implement stage1
[16:56] Andrew Linden: I'm proposing that we do it
[16:56] Kooky Jetaime: if object encroaches neighbor prompt to confirm rez
[16:56] Ryozu Yamamoto: Andrew: If we begin checking against bounding boxes, will that negativly affect sim borders to "Void"/no man's land areas
[16:56] Andrew Linden: We do not yet have the capability to determine if an obect is encroaching yet. At least not the capability to do it _right_.
[16:57] Kooky Jetaime: I'm jumping the gun to after its in place
[16:57] Andrew Linden: Doing it wrong will produce an equal or larger number of problems.
[16:57] Rex Cronon: what do u mean? u can do that even with scripts
[16:57] Seifert Surface: how?
[16:57] Mathieu Basiat: are we going to deal with bugs in todays meeting?
[16:57] Kitto Flora: Surely void sims would be available for encroachment?
[16:57] Ryozu Yamamoto: Well a "Void sim" and a "Void" aren't the same thing
[16:57] Teravus Ousley nod nods.. and imagines bounding boxes of cut and stretched toruses
[16:57] Seifert Surface: kitto: presumably that would be up to the settings on the void sim
[16:58] Ryozu Yamamoto: I'm talking about Voids, no man's land
[16:58] Rex Cronon: u know the bounding box of object, its position, and size of parcel, from this u can determine if is overlapping other parcels
[16:58] Ryozu Yamamoto: the ether that avatars cannot traverse
[16:58] Ryozu Yamamoto: Rex: That's the "Not doing it right"
[16:58] Kitto Flora: Half meeting gone and we didnt get to the her and now problems yet
[16:58] Kooky Jetaime: Ryozu - I think he means that you'd run into encroachment issues moving over the edge of sim
[16:58] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's a bounding box that is not accurate at all
[16:58] Kooky Jetaime: you'd go "off world" once your object bumped the line instead of the object center
[16:58] Andrew Linden: Rex Canon, I think using the bounding box to determine encroachement would be doing it _wrong_.
[16:58] Teravus Ousley notes that bounding boxes specifically.. isn't very accurate for cut and stretched toruses.
[16:59] Andrew Linden: There would be many cases where the was no apparent encroachment.
[16:59] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's what I"m worried about Kooky
[16:59] Andrew Linden: Kittto, are you asking for an update on the Havok4 preview?
[16:59] Ryozu Yamamoto: Heh, there are still some issues there ;)
[16:59] Mathieu Basiat: tons
[16:59] Kitto Flora: Andrew, that would be nice :) And some chat about the found bugs. and what help you need with them.
[16:59] Rex Cronon: u know x, y, z for size, u know position
[16:59] Ryozu Yamamoto: But I'm glad I don'thave glue on my feet anymore ^_^
[17:00] Rex Cronon: u use that to compute bounding box
[17:00] Ryozu Yamamoto: Rex: But that's not at all accurate
[17:00] Ryozu Yamamoto: We're talking physics accuracy, not just box accuracy
[17:00] Teravus Ousley listens to the havok4 report
[17:00] Andrew Linden: It's been a hectic week... so far. I haven't been able to survey the entire list of bugs.
[17:00] Andrew Linden: I can tell you about the big ones I know about...
[17:00] Andrew Linden: We still have at least two crash bugs.
[17:01] Andrew Linden: I've got a havok engineer coming in tomorrow to help me with them.
[17:01] Ryozu Yamamoto: Andrew: Did you get any logs of a crash on Bug Island, maybe caused by me?
[17:01] Andrew Linden: Lots of vehicles have been reported busted.
[17:01] Rex Cronon: the comments on the blog were from people that didn't like others objects to overlap their parcel, weren't specifically for havok4
[17:01] Kooky Jetaime: My aubretec black widow is useless
[17:01] Ryozu Yamamoto: I can't even tell if it was my fault or not
[17:01] Andrew Linden: And the RCCS system may be too "dumb" to be deployable.
[17:01] Kooky Jetaime: but thats probably a good thing :)
[17:01] Ryozu Yamamoto: Kooky: That's probably not going to change
[17:01] Sidewinder Linden: kooky - the guns?
[17:01] Mathieu Basiat: llGroundRepel is actually attracting
[17:01] Kooky Jetaime: yep
[17:01] Ryozu Yamamoto: Blitz sphere
[17:01] Sidewinder Linden: ahh
[17:01] Kooky Jetaime: that too
[17:01] Kooky Jetaime: Temporal
[17:02] Andrew Linden: I'm worried that many people will reject the current behavior of the RCCS. So I've been pondering how to make it smarter and break less stuff.
[17:02] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's a bug havok4 is intended to fix in that case
[17:02] Kooky Jetaime: then again, a weapon that uses 1500 prims for 1 shot of ammo.. EEEEEEK
[17:02] Andrew Linden: llGroundRepel... sounds like a small bug, easy to fix.
[17:02] Ryozu Yamamoto: that too -_-;;
[17:02] Mathieu Basiat: yes, but it breaks alot, so i hope it's piucked up
[17:02] Andrew Linden: btw, I fixed SVC-54 in Havok4 finally, this morning.
[17:03] Teravus Ousley nods.. llGroundRepel works far stronger then it did in the past
[17:03] Mathieu Basiat: mmmm, really?
[17:03] Ryozu Yamamoto: Awesome
[17:03] Andrew Linden: so that's the status... I haven't been able to fix a lot of bugs over the last few days.
[17:03] Ryozu Yamamoto: I still have issues with llMoveToTarget acting like a bungy cord, that's my current beef, heh
[17:03] Ryozu Yamamoto: But all in due time
[17:03] Andrew Linden: Dunno when the next update is going to be... hopefully Thursday if we can fix at least one of the crash bugs tomorrow.
[17:04] Andrew Linden: Ryozu, I punted llMoveToTarget() on avatars in favor of some more important bugs.
[17:04] Andrew Linden: I'll get to it later.
[17:04] Kitto Flora: WHat about 'Unable to create requested object - parse failure.' ?
[17:04] Sidewinder Linden: we'll be going through the whole open bug list a bit later in the week (internal and external) this week to look through and prioritize next steps...
[17:04] Ryozu Yamamoto: XD
[17:04] Ryozu Yamamoto: Like I said, all in due time
[17:04] Andrew Linden: But it isn't on my list of todo's this week.
[17:04] Rex Cronon: oh, it is normal if a linked set is inside another liked set(that is physical) that the physical one is thrown out of the sim?
[17:04] Seifert Surface: inside meaning interpenetrating?
[17:05] Kooky Jetaime: I'm trying to remember what else I brought from the OS meeting last week for Andrew
[17:05] Kooky Jetaime: MAybe I hit it all
[17:05] Andrew Linden: No that is something new in Havok4... dynamic objects that penetrate are pushed apart
[17:05] Rex Cronon: either totally or partially
[17:05] Andrew Linden: sometimes too vigorously
[17:05] Mathieu Basiat: lol
[17:05] Sidewinder Linden: and that could mean that they are thrown a good distance sometimes
[17:05] Rex Cronon: always
[17:05] Kooky Jetaime: hehe it makes a pretty show though Andrew
[17:05] Teravus Ousley: hehe :)
[17:05] Andrew Linden: the bad news is that it is diffcult to totally disable.. the penetration resolution is built into the Havok4 solver.
[17:05] Ryozu Yamamoto: Hehe
[17:05] Rex Cronon: every time i tried it i got same result
[17:06] Andrew Linden: I've got one idea on how to do it... sorta.
[17:06] Andrew Linden: But I haven't had time to try it out.
[17:06] Mathieu Basiat: the only other showstopper for me is the friction on watervehicles....non existant
[17:06] Sidewinder Linden: how important do you guys think it is to tame that behavior, vs other content issues?
[17:06] Sidewinder Linden: in other words, if we were to stick with this "toss" behavior for first release?
[17:06] Mathieu Basiat: can you clamp it down
[17:06] Mathieu Basiat: ?
[17:07] Andrew Linden: Well, here's the question... do you think we could ship Havok4 to SL proper with the current penetration resolution?
[17:07] Kitto Flora: The toss issue has not affected my vehicles
[17:07] Mathieu Basiat: minimize it?
[17:07] Sidewinder Linden: right - comments - one by one - what do you think?
[17:07] Seifert Surface: could it be used to grief?
[17:07] Kitto Flora: The train - engine + 2 cars runs fine now in H4
[17:07] Andrew Linden: Yes... new grief modes would be opened.
[17:07] Sidewinder Linden: cool kitto
[17:07] Rex Cronon: actually it could be used to get rid of physical prims
[17:07] Teravus Ousley thinks that the collision resolver could be shipped in it's current state.
[17:07] Seifert Surface: is it as simple as rez an object ontop of someone and turn it physical?
[17:07] Sidewinder Linden: +1
[17:08] Ryozu Yamamoto: There is no way to make greifing impossible without packing up our "sandbox" and goin home, always keep that in mind ;)
[17:08] Seifert Surface: and they get orbited?
[17:08] Rex Cronon: it doesn't affect avatars
[17:08] Kitto Flora: I have seen the 'toss' phenomenon happen - when the F20 jet fell apart - see SVC-830
[17:08] Ryozu Yamamoto: That said, I think it's fine like it is, other things take precedence
[17:08] Sidewinder Linden: that would trap someone in some cases seifert
[17:08] Sidewinder Linden: push into terrain
[17:08] Sidewinder Linden: but there are already traps, right, so that's not really "new"
[17:08] Kooky Jetaime: andrew
[17:08] Seifert Surface: right
[17:08] Rex Cronon: it could be ok to allow
[17:08] Kooky Jetaime: Speaking of Traps
[17:09] Ryozu Yamamoto: Right, and as long as tunneling is left intact, traps can be defeated
[17:09] Kooky Jetaime: what about a return ability for objects that have you surrounded and are colliding on multiple sides?
[17:09] Kooky Jetaime: something possible?
[17:09] Sidewinder Linden: so am i hearing right that we should perhaps think about leaving this behavior as is for first release, and focus on other things?
[17:09] Ryozu Yamamoto: =/
[17:09] Teravus Ousley notes that the bungie sim crossing effect + the collision solver can sometimes cause the avatar to be thrown into the air.. but could live with it for the first release.
[17:09] Rex Cronon: yes
[17:09] Kooky Jetaime: or would with the collision resolution, if you made a cage "too" tight
[17:09] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's my opinion Sidewinder
[17:09] Andrew Linden: Kooky, I've thought about that... but that is a pretty difficult problem to solve right.
[17:09] Seifert Surface: sidewinder: sounds like it yes
[17:09] Sidewinder Linden: kk thanks gusy
[17:09] Sidewinder Linden: guys
[17:09] Kitto Flora: Me too Sidewinder
[17:09] Kooky Jetaime: you would be ejected from it?
[17:10] Andrew Linden: That is... figuring out what is actually trapping you maliciously is difficult
[17:10] Rex Cronon: actully this would be good way to get rid of physical cages:)
[17:10] Mathieu Basiat: "big red stop button"
[17:10] Ryozu Yamamoto: I don't think that's a problem that can be fixed
[17:10] Ryozu Yamamoto: That is to say,
[17:10] Kooky Jetaime: but there are the occasions where having physical elements interpenetrate other physicals is a good thing so
[17:10] Kitto Flora: Andrew, what about the 'Unable to create requested object - parse failure.' error message?
[17:10] Teravus Ousley wonders if a fast moving cage would *bounce* you around in it.. as opposed to throwing you out.
[17:11] Ryozu Yamamoto: SL is an open ended system. You can't make it abuse-proof without making it fatally limited in scope and ability.
[17:11] Teravus Ousley makes a note to test and play with that on himself
[17:11] Andrew Linden: solving the caged avatar problem may be solvable... but at the cost of eliminating some cool content
[17:11] Ryozu Yamamoto: Some problems can't be fixed without being just plain broken
[17:11] Andrew Linden: some people want to make games where you might get trapped and have to solve the puzzle to escape
[17:11] Seifert Surface: you can always teleport...
[17:11] Ryozu Yamamoto: Yep
[17:11] Mathieu Basiat: so why do some vehicles stop when you cross from havok 1 to havok 4?
[17:11] Andrew Linden: I can't think of all the cases of content that woudl "break" or become impossible
[17:12] Mathieu Basiat: or vvs
[17:12] Teravus Ousley nods
[17:12] Andrew Linden: perhaps there could be more refined permissions such that escape and "collisionless avatars" is on by default
[17:12] Andrew Linden: but can be turned off as a per-region or parcel setting
[17:12] Ryozu Yamamoto: But disabled by parcle/region/estate
[17:12] Andrew Linden: right
[17:12] Mathieu Basiat: i only note this because the water sim havok 1 sandbox...forgot its name does not allow rezzing
[17:13] Rex Cronon: it would be interesting if some prims in the same linked set can be physical while others are not:)
[17:13] Seifert Surface: then nobody would be able to walk up stairs
[17:13] Ryozu Yamamoto: Would be nice to go along with script pins ;)
[17:13] Andrew Linden: Mathieu, there is a bug in H1 <--> H4 border crossings right now
[17:13] Mathieu Basiat: k
[17:13] Kitto Flora: Rex - they can in H4 - I have an object that is that way
[17:13] Andrew Linden: I think Kelly Linden fixed some of the border crossing problems
[17:13] Andrew Linden: but not all yet
[17:13] Mathieu Basiat: can we make that sandbox rezzable?
[17:14] Andrew Linden: Which sandbox Mathieu?
[17:14] Mathieu Basiat: as i have bigger stuff that wont fit in the river
[17:14] Kooky Jetaime: Crap
[17:14] Kooky Jetaime: heh
[17:14] Mathieu Basiat: i left you a notte in beta grid
[17:14] Mathieu Basiat: note
[17:14] Ryozu Yamamoto: I think the gist of it is that it's hard to test water based htings
[17:14] Mathieu Basiat: the havok 1 SB
[17:14] Ryozu Yamamoto: Heh
[17:14] Andrew Linden: Yeah, well mention the name here an I'll try to write myself a note.
[17:14] Mathieu Basiat: sec
[17:15] Andrew Linden: oh... Havok1 sandbox?
[17:15] Mathieu Basiat: yes
[17:15] Mathieu Basiat: the one with alot of water is not rezzable
[17:15] Andrew Linden: I'll try to fix it tomorrow morning. I won't have time tonight.
[17:15] Mathieu Basiat: the left one
[17:15] Sidewinder Linden: oh - actually that reminds me.... i have had a couple of requests to refresh the database on the preview... that would wipe inventory and reset to current... my temptation would be to leave it as is and not refresh for now... thoughts?
[17:15] Mathieu Basiat: refresh
[17:15] Kitto Flora: I tested a Taco sailboat in Kapor/Rosedale sims - thats a big H4 lake
[17:15] Rex Cronon: nice kitto, so u can do that in havok4:)
[17:15] Ryozu Yamamoto: Hmmm, I'd have to get all my testing scripts off beta first ;)
[17:15] Sidewinder Linden: how did that work kitto? sailing seemed ok?
[17:15] Mathieu Basiat: as the DB is from JUly
[17:16] Teravus Ousley thinks. Refresh if you can.
[17:16] Ryozu Yamamoto: But there' all simple things, so nothing I couldn't rewrite
[17:16] Kitto Flora: Rex - Problem is I dont know how to 'get there' But I have a object where the root is non-phys and all the child prims are physical.
[17:16] Andrew Linden: Sidewinder, there is probably a way to write a script to import those on the main db but not on the H4 db.
[17:16] Andrew Linden: But I don't have time to write it.
[17:16] Ryozu Yamamoto: Ah yes
[17:17] Rex Cronon: btw, what is a good, simple, and eashy way on beta to determine if a sim supports havok 4
[17:17] Andrew Linden: Such a script may be useful in the future. Dunno... everyone is so busy at the moment./
[17:17] Ryozu Yamamoto: Perhaps Kitto, they were a physical object linked to a non-phys root?
[17:17] Sidewinder Linden: good point andrew... i seem to remember someone mentioning that such a thing might be around - i'll go hunting for it
[17:17] Teravus Ousley notes that havok1 sims are labeled havok1
[17:17] Andrew Linden: Rex, all preview regions are using Havok4 except those named "Foo Havok1"
[17:17] Ryozu Yamamoto: I've noticed setting a linked object physica, then unlinking, I think makes only the root prim physica and the rest stay non-phys
[17:17] Andrew Linden: or something like that. Replace "Foo" with the right name'
[17:17] Kitto Flora: Ryozu, that is not waht I did.
[17:17] Rex Cronon: ok, thanks. for a few days i was lost
[17:18] Seifert Surface: ryozu: unless you set each physical before you link them
[17:18] Ryozu Yamamoto: Right
[17:18] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's different than Havok1 behavior
[17:18] Andrew Linden: Ryozu, that is a bug. Someone has reported the per-prim-physical setting
[17:18] Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[17:18] Seifert Surface: that was me
[17:18] Seifert Surface: theres this cool thing you can do, have 2 physical prims
[17:19] Seifert Surface: link them, and put in a script that delinks on touch
[17:19] Andrew Linden: Someone earlier today asked for per-prim phantom settings, or per-prim physical setting.
[17:19] Andrew Linden: Note that such a feature request is at odds with legacy content
[17:19] Rex Cronon: i think i did
[17:19] Seifert Surface: touch them as theyre falling, and the one you touch keeps falling, the other is physical yet appears to float in the air
[17:19] Seifert Surface: doesnt want to move
[17:19] Andrew Linden: In order to make it possible one would have to come up with a different way of specifying which prims should stay and which should go.
[17:20] Kitto Flora: Andrew - one would LOVE to have phantom child prims as part of a non-phantom vehicle.
[17:20] Andrew Linden: I'd love to add such a feature... but I'm afraid of all the kickback I'll get when I break existing content, and expectations.
[17:20] Ryozu Yamamoto: Maybe in the future
[17:20] Seifert Surface: with a bigger vehicle revamp
[17:20] Kitto Flora: WHere's the backwards compatibility problem?
[17:20] Kooky Jetaime: Andrew - te reason that people request per prim settings like that is to allow vehicles other physical objects to have higher prim counts and detail
[17:20] Andrew Linden: It will probably be done eventually... but I don't know how to roll it out without it getting vetoed by QA.
[17:20] Andrew Linden: yet
[17:21] Sidewinder Linden: why would that break existing content? if it's an option...
[17:21] Kooky Jetaime: and how would it break old stuffs?
[17:21] Andrew Linden: yeah, that is a feature I talk about at nearly every office hour, or it feels that way
[17:21] Kitto Flora: Old stuff is either all phantom or all non-phantom
[17:21] Kooky Jetaime: don't change the state on stuff, just new creations keep the states
[17:22] Andrew Linden: Most of the obvious "wouldn't it be cool, it is so obvious it should be done" features... yeah, I'd like to do those.
[17:22] Seifert Surface: kooky: isnt the prim limit on vehicles about sim crossing rather than physics? in which case makingthings phantom cant help you increase the counts
[17:22] Ryozu Yamamoto: Yep
[17:22] Andrew Linden: but they all are waiting for Havok4 to get done
[17:22] Kitto Flora: So - does anyone have a clue on the 'Unable to create requested object - parse failure.' error message?
[17:22] Kooky Jetaime: Andew - something I'm gonna put in with the Windlight peeps is
[17:22] Ryozu Yamamoto: Probably odd asset server issues
[17:22] Andrew Linden: and then there will be a prioritization exercise to see what gets done first
[17:22] Kooky Jetaime: oh crap, I hate old messages in the buffer
[17:22] Kooky Jetaime: but that was going with water on a prim
[17:22] Kooky Jetaime: heh
[17:23] Rex Cronon: i get "Unable to create requested object" without the last 2 words
[17:23] Ryozu Yamamoto: Hmmmm, Shaders on prims
[17:23] Ryozu Yamamoto: yummy
[17:23] Kitto Flora: Not an asset server issue, Rezzez in H1, error message in H4
[17:23] Seifert Surface votes parcel/prim collision leading to megaprim support
[17:23] Ryozu Yamamoto: Kitto: Okay Asset<->Sim issue
[17:23] Kooky Jetaime: Second Siefert
[17:23] Ryozu Yamamoto: For a future feature, maybe
[17:24] Mathieu Basiat: water on a prim?? ROCK, lol
[17:24] Andrew Linden: Objects that rez in H1 but fail to rez in H2. Please give me a copy in the preview and I'll figure out what the problem is.
[17:24] Kooky Jetaime: Mathieu - have you seen the new WL Water?
[17:24] Mathieu Basiat: part
[17:24] Mathieu Basiat: from torleys pix
[17:24] Rex Cronon: brb
[17:24] Kooky Jetaime: yep
[17:24] Ryozu Yamamoto: If future features are all just that, out of the question until H4 is stable, works mimicks h1 as close as possible, etc
[17:24] Seifert Surface: if i can just go back to the bog post for a moment..
[17:24] Sidewinder Linden: that is the current plan in general ryozu...
[17:24] Kooky Jetaime: I would love to see it be set up so you could texture a face (if not all) with that
[17:24] Seifert Surface: how much truth is there in this statement from michael's blog post:? " the presence of megaprims will interfere with the improvements planned for the physics engine. The bigger the megaprims, the more trouble they will cause for physics simulation in a Region."
[17:24] Ryozu Yamamoto: For now, from my perspective, top priority goes to vehicle physics and avatar issues
[17:25] Andrew Linden: We've got about 5 more minutes. Unfortunately on Tuesdays I've got to run to be somewhere at 18:30.
[17:25] Mathieu Basiat: that is the thing, now noone knows what water will be like in a particular sim
[17:25] Kooky Jetaime: so we could have "non-sealevel lakes/ponds/etc"
[17:25] Ryozu Yamamoto: Sefiert: True: Simulation Island linking
[17:25] Seifert Surface: ryozu: yes, i was talking about things after havok 4 is up and running
[17:25] Kooky Jetaime: Andrew - is there any way you could put water effect on a prim?
[17:25] Kooky Jetaime: from a physics standpoint
[17:25] Andrew Linden: Seifert, it is true in theory. How bad it really is, I dunno... I haven't tested it.
[17:25] Mathieu Basiat: takiing into account windlight settings
[17:25] Seifert Surface: ryozu: thats what i thought he was talking about
[17:26] Ryozu Yamamoto: One of the performance boosts in Havok4 is the Simulation islands, limiting collision calculations to groups of objects instead of the whole sim of objects. A single megaprim can link every simulation island into one, negating the perfomance boost
[17:26] Andrew Linden: But... whenever you have such a "potential problem"... there is usually a way to exploit it to the max.
[17:26] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's the theory anyways
[17:26] Andrew Linden: So I tend to be wary of such potential problems.
[17:26] Seifert Surface: ryozu: and would the equivalent bunch of normal size prims not collapse simulation islands?
[17:26] Andrew Linden: The SL residents like to explore the distant corners of the possibility space
[17:26] Andrew Linden: that I would never think to go.
[17:26] Ryozu Yamamoto: Seifert: Quite possibly
[17:27] Mathieu Basiat: thanks Andrew.....leave a bit early and make it on time....
[17:27] Kooky Jetaime: I've been to 1,000,000m
[17:27] Kooky Jetaime: on my own power
[17:27] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's what makes SL so great Andrew ;)
[17:27] Kooky Jetaime: boy do things get warped
[17:27] Sidewinder Linden: so we have time for maybe one more question guys - andrew has to roll really soon... anything else pressing for now?
[17:27] Seifert Surface: and is it correct that without simulation islands, h4 is about as good as h1?
[17:27] Ryozu Yamamoto: Speaking of!
[17:27] Andrew Linden: about that 1,000,000 m "misfeature"....
[17:27] Ryozu Yamamoto: misfeature eh?
[17:27] Andrew Linden: I made special effort to keep that viable in Havok4
[17:27] Ryozu Yamamoto: Hehe
[17:27] Kooky Jetaime: the misfeature of warping or the misfeature that at 1,000,001m your attachments go poof
[17:28] Teravus Ousley: :) Thanks for coming and communicating with us and fitting us into your busy schedule :) It's quite appreciated.
[17:28] Andrew Linden: many people enjoy wandering into floating point error land
[17:28] Ryozu Yamamoto: ch
[17:28] Seifert Surface: :)
[17:28] Ryozu Yamamoto chuckles
[17:28] Ryozu Yamamoto: Indeed
[17:28] Kooky Jetaime: is there gonna be an altitude limit?
[17:28] Ryozu Yamamoto: Hey, wait, I get floating point erros on the ground ;_;
[17:28] Andrew Linden: Your avatar can go as high as is unreasonable
[17:28] Mathieu Basiat: 1,000,001 bottles of beer on the wall...
[17:28] Ryozu Yamamoto: Bloody scripting
[17:28] Rex Cronon: so i still have to reset all my attachemnts after a blitz:(
[17:28] Kooky Jetaime: or as is limited by floats and or integers? :D
[17:28] Andrew Linden: however normal objects have been clamped to 1024 meters... much more effectively than in Havok1
[17:28] Ryozu Yamamoto: Floats
[17:28] Ryozu Yamamoto: Andrew, about that
[17:29] Kooky Jetaime: yea, another whole 256m to build in whoo hoo
[17:29] Ryozu Yamamoto: The old limit was, non-physical objects could go to 768, physical up to 4096
[17:29] Kooky Jetaime: physicals still to 4096?
[17:29] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's not how it is
[17:29] Andrew Linden: as far asI know I've plugged the > 1024 height possiblity for all non-avatar objects
[17:29] Mathieu Basiat: will that affect map?
[17:29] Ryozu Yamamoto: Both limits have been collasped to 1024
[17:29] Kooky Jetaime: oh
[17:29] Ryozu Yamamoto: I think that's kind of an issue
[17:29] Kooky Jetaime: Physicals are down to 1024 now ?
[17:29] Mathieu Basiat: over 600 does not show on map
[17:29] Rex Cronon: that is bad:(
[17:29] Kooky Jetaime: thought it was about 400 Mathiew?
[17:29] Teravus Ousley: The other 'high' primsituation.. was when someone 'rezzed' a prim higher then the boundary
[17:29] Ryozu Yamamoto: Many enjoy being able to fly physical vehicles in the sky where non-Physical sky boxes can't get in the way
[17:29] Mathieu Basiat: 601
[17:30] Ryozu Yamamoto: That's the main issue
[17:30] Rex Cronon: no dog fights above 1024:(
[17:30] Teravus Ousley: I have yet to test it in havok4 though
[17:30] Ryozu Yamamoto: You can't fly above the sky boxes, so you'll crash into them
[17:30] Andrew Linden: hrm...
[17:30] Mathieu Basiat: ok
[17:30] Ryozu Yamamoto: The same kind of issue applies with sailing, which is why I never sail anymore
[17:30] Mathieu Basiat: BYE!!!
[17:30] Kooky Jetaime: plus skydiving happens at 2-4000m Andrew
[17:30] Ryozu Yamamoto: Except I hit "Banned parcels" instead of sky boxes
[17:30] Sidewinder Linden: bye mathieu - thanks
[17:30] Andrew Linden: well I'll ponder the possibility of opening up some portion of the sky for dynamic objects... I hadn't thought bout that yet
[17:30] Kooky Jetaime: a cap at 1024 will break those
[17:30] Kooky Jetaime: and that recreation
[17:30] Ryozu Yamamoto: Kooky: theoretically, if you make a HUD to take you up that high, skydiving isn't an issue
[17:30] Andrew Linden: and I'm not sure how it wold be done in the code ... easy or messy
[17:31] Mathieu Basiat: i was trying not to make andrew late
[17:31] Ryozu Yamamoto: Ah, sorry, heh
[17:31] Kooky Jetaime: Ryozu - but you lose the group aspect
[17:31] Rex Cronon: bye andrew
[17:31] Ryozu Yamamoto: But I think it's important
[17:31] Seifert Surface: thanks andrew
[17:31] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I'm going to have to go now.
[17:31] Teravus Ousley: Yes, thanks again :)
[17:31] Ryozu Yamamoto: I do agree though Kooky
[17:31] Mathieu Basiat: but the map thing will effect lots of stuff
[17:31] Kooky Jetaime: ok
[17:31] Andrew Linden: See you all later.
[17:31] Kooky Jetaime: make a note to pick up here next time Andrew
[17:31] Ryozu Yamamoto: Physical prims should be able to hit 4096
[17:31] Kooky Jetaime: bye
[17:31] Teravus Ousley: take care, happy programming :)