User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2007 12 27

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:00]	Buck Coeyman:	hey axl
[17:00]	Grier Ireland:	hey guys
[17:00]	Buck Coeyman:	where you been
[17:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Did I actually ma nage, to cose Crash Me?
[17:01]	Andrew Linden:	Hello Arawn.
[17:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Andrew
[17:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Long as nobody else is here, how soon would llDamp PrimitiveParams be likely to be considered?
[17:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	They might think you've the week off.
[17:02]	Buck Coeyman:	alx het jj
[17:02]	Tregok Boa gave you Assault.
[17:03]	Buck Coeyman:	hey grier
[17:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	I didn't see Zero this morning, so we don't know what's happening in San Francisco
[17:03]	Grier Ireland:	hello buck...how are you?
[17:03]	Buck Coeyman:	great just got new car
[17:03]	Grier Ireland:	cool...
[17:03]	Buck Coeyman:	and bike
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	I dunno if Zero is holding hours today, or this week.
[17:04]	Grier Ireland:	really..should be fun..
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	I dunno if he announced any time away.
[17:04]	Buck Coeyman:	and boughtboat
[17:04]	Buck Coeyman:	and new protecton
[17:04]	Grier Ireland:	wow...where do you keep it all?
[17:04]	Buck Coeyman:	my place
[17:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think he's 1PM Tuesday, and 10:30AM Thursday
[17:05]	Grier Ireland:	you have your own place? thats nice..
[17:05]	Buck Coeyman:	ok
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	ok, I was just trying to take care of some IM's.
[17:05]	Buck Coeyman:	thanks
[17:05]	Buck Coeyman:	axl where did you go
[17:06]	Buck Coeyman:	you look good
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, you normally attend Zero's office hours?
[17:06]	Grier Ireland:	i talked to axl the other nite, how is he?
[17:06]	Buck Coeyman:	he got lost
[17:06]	Buck Coeyman:	lets go
[17:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	I like to. I'm a long way from having a compiler to hack the viewer, but someday hope to build a VEHICLE_TYPE_SIM
[17:07]	Buck Coeyman:	hey what to you
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	frageurs, the office hour transcripts get published online, on the SecondLife Wiki
[17:07]	Buck Coeyman:	you where gone
[17:07]	Axl Ronmark:	hi, i was away
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	if you're willing to have your issue be posted there, you're welcome to sit and bring it to the table
[17:08]	Buck Coeyman:	just got back
[17:08]	Buck Coeyman:	going to try new weopens
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	If it is a Havok4 issue then it should definitely be discussed here.
[17:08]	frageurs Hock:	well i dont have a paticular issue, i am just worried, i have more then 23 diffrnt types of cars, tested them on havok4 none of theml work perfectly
[17:08]	Buck Coeyman:	by
[17:08]	frageurs Hock:	i am really worried becuase if havok4 comes, iw ont have time to update it all and all the unhappy customers
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes, vehicles are known to have problems
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	especially ground vehicles
[17:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	That would be a Havoc 4 Issue
[17:09]	frageurs Hock:	and all the ARS they will file agaisnt us
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	we're going to start working on those again next week
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	unfortunately it isn't clear how much I can repair
[17:09]	frageurs Hock:	do u think u can maybe make sure atleast they work with ours ?
[17:09]	frageurs Hock:	i mean i tried most of our cars, its a pure joke there
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	there are some issues to do with turning that I know I can fixe
[17:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't know whether we're scheduled to have high school level surface friction
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	however there are some issues with ground collisions and friction that will be harder
[17:10]	frageurs Hock:	we spend hours scripting them rite now, added downforce feature,adjustable handlign etc;.
[17:10]	frageurs Hock:	so if havok4 introduces, we gota rescript all our cars ?
[17:10]	Grier Ireland:	uh oh..how did he manage that?wow buck..thats nice!!!
[17:10]	Buck Coeyman shouts: hey grier her is one
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	We're going to try to maintain as much vehicle behavior as possible
[17:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	Wouldn't that be a matter of Havoc 4 Funtionality?
[17:11]	frageurs Hock:	i am really paniced coz of havok4
[17:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	Crash Me 3 wasn't fit to test anything, when last I was there.
[17:11]	frageurs Hock:	i have too many cars and it takes hours and horus to rescript everything
[17:12]	frageurs Hock:	and thousands of cars already sold.. how can i track everyone
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	I don't have a good picture of all the problems with vehicles atm, I've been focusing on something else so I've been piling the vehicle bugs up
[17:12]	frageurs Hock:	want me to give you some cars so u can try them ?
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	Sure, I'll take a few cars, or a folder of cars. I've already got several test demos in my inventory from other vehicle scripters.
[17:13]	frageurs Hock:	mines are unique
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	Also, on the jira.secondlife.com website there are several vehicle bugs already entered.
[17:13]	frageurs Hock gave you M.HXX Red Edition.
[17:13]	frageurs Hock gave you M.H Prenza 07 Turbo Black Edition 2.0.
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	I expect that many of those bugs are duplicates of the problems you're seeing.
[17:14]	frageurs Hock gave you M.H Galla52 Red Edition 2.0.
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Ok that is enough.
[17:14]	frageurs Hock:	i am sending u all sorta cars we made
[17:14]	frageurs Hock:	please take into account previous work too its too much for us to rescript all
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Note, I don't have a good idea of how they are behaving wrong yet.
[17:14]	frageurs Hock:	i discuesed this problm with most of the major car dealrs in SL,franchis,luca,etc.. we are all kinda stressed
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	Unless I've got a nice clear description of the problem then I'm inclined to focus on the entered bugs first
[17:15]	frageurs Hock:	you know we all have RL comitments too so cnat spend another 100 horus rescriptign all agian ..
[17:15]	frageurs Hock:	yea
[17:15]	frageurs Hock:	i see
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	then once I've fixed a bunch of vehicle bugs and think I've got things working better I'll ask you to retest.
[17:15]	frageurs Hock:	so from the rumors ive heard please make me feel abit better
[17:16]	frageurs Hock:	Hovok 4 is supose to be compatible with the previous cars ?
[17:16]	frageurs Hock:	or it wont work at all ?
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	State the rumors and I can tell you which ones are true.
[17:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought it was not to be noticed
[17:16]	frageurs Hock:	ok
[17:17]	frageurs Hock:	Will Havok4 be compatible or is supose to be compatible with the cars currtly on the grid ?
[17:17]	frageurs Hock:	Will the prim limit still be 31 ?
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	The intention is to make Havok4 as compatible as possible with Havok1 behavior.
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	However...
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	there are some differences that will be unavoidable.
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	Some examples are:
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	(1) penetrating dynamic objects will be pushed apart -- the penetration resolution code is built into the Havok4 solver and is hard to disable across the board
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	we've already dissabled it for a few cases (selected objects don't collide with their duplicates when penetrating)
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	(2) friction/conservation_of_energy is different for collisions
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	this is the main thing that affects ground vehicles that is so hard to match with Havok1 behavior
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to try to fix it, however it is not clear yet how well I'll be in that regard
[17:20]	frageurs Hock:	i see
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	(3) the order of operations in the integration step has changed... gravity is done after the Action::apply() step
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	which mostly affects hover effects, and actions that used to defeat gravity
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	by "action" I mean a instance of a C++ class that pushes an object every simulation timestep
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	such as vehicles, hover, MoveToTarget, buoyancy, etc...
[17:22]	frageurs Hock:	I see
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	LSL calls that create a behavior that relies on some code being run every physics step
[17:22]	frageurs Hock:	Will be have like a month of notice in advnace before the release of havok4 ?
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	There is probably a (4) and a (5) but I can't think of what they are at the moment. Those are the big differences that come to mind
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	Oh yeah... (4) avatar motion may be slightly different
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	Havok4 is currently in trial now
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	but we were looking for early adopters who do not need vehicles to work right, but have crashy regions
[17:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	is Vineland a test-bed?
[17:24]	frageurs Hock:	Can you give me a rought estimate about the time it will be released ?
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	the hope is that we can find some people who like how Havok4 works now... reducing crash rates... but don't mind the current bugs and problems
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	Those trials will expand over the first quarter of 2008
[17:25]	frageurs Hock:	Andrew... my problem is my car collection adn the amound of customers i got
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	Eventually we'll have to force Havok4 on everybody, however we'll be trying to fix the vehicle bugs and others before we do. As many as possible.
[17:25]	frageurs Hock:	people will turn crazy on me.. i am a RL student and have to do RL studies too nad if people get pissed and ic ant script on time i can be kicked out easily
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	I expect the project to complete in 2008.Q1
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	so... probably a month at least, but maybe not two.
[17:25]	frageurs Hock:	a month from now ?
[17:26]	Marishka Blackburn:	hello
[17:26]	frageurs Hock:	HI marishka :)
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	At least one month, would be my guess.
[17:26]	Marishka Blackburn:	what are we all doing ?
[17:26]	frageurs Hock:	after 1 month you would probibily launch it on the main grid ?
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	If we were "done" today I would expect it to take another two weeks at minimum before it could be joined to the main trunk of the codebase.
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	So I think the Havok4 project to "ship" everywhere closer to two months than one.
[17:27]	frageurs Hock:	will the people and business owners get a notice in advnace of the final version adn give us the oppurtunity to make our stuff compatible with havok4?
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, we'll be posting info about the progress of the project. On the blog, and more details in these office hours.
[17:28]	frageurs Hock:	oh i see, what will be the prim limit ?
[17:28]	frageurs Hock:	for phyiscs?
[17:29]	frageurs Hock:	Beacuse i read it will increase but some people tell me it wont
[17:29]	Arawn Spitteler tells Marishka: These are the office hours for the Physics EngineUpgrade
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	What prim limit are you asking about exactly? There are at least three prim limits that I know of.
[17:29]	Marishka Blackburn:	oh ok I am sorry
[17:29]	Marishka Blackburn:	I will leave
[17:29]	frageurs Hock:	Physics
[17:29]	frageurs Hock:	for cars
[17:29]	frageurs Hock:	atm its 31 prims
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	The prim limit will not be changing. That limit now has more to do with border crossing than physics.
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	Er... yes it is going up a modest 1 prim to 32, since the 31 was always an "off by one" error.
[17:30]	frageurs Hock:	will havok4 improve the boarder crossing ?
[17:30]	frageurs Hock:	atm i have to admist its pretty bad
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	But a significant increase will have to wait for other improvements.
[17:31]	frageurs Hock:	is eco linden part of the testing team ?
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	Havok4 does not improve border crossing. That has more to do with the serialization/deserialization of objects and sending them across the net to a new host.
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	There is a project we're calling "object transport" that will probably involve some attention and hopeful improvements to border crossing.
[17:32]	frageurs Hock:	the thing that shocked me the most is that my cars dont drive on havok4,they kinda fly over and aorund and it really scares me
[17:33]	Tanath Seelowe:	hello:)
[17:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Tanath
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	In a sense frageurs, that is "good news" that you're starting to pay attention to Havok4.
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	The project has been in open preview for months now.
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	We need people to go in and test their stuff.
[17:33]	frageurs Hock:	Oh:) dont owrry i have been following you people sinc ethe beginning but never told oyu
[17:34]	frageurs Hock:	i like staying in my corner and doign things, but this was too much for me
[17:34]	frageurs Hock:	i like to be ready for the future and havok4 is just make it unstable for me as i cant predict how the car will react
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	We've got some regulars who go in and test stuff and provide a lot of feedback.
[17:34]	frageurs Hock:	i am ready to help you in all sorts, i have more then 52 types of cars
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	But this project is going to transition slowly, and so I expect a bunch of people to start to get vocal.
[17:35]	frageurs Hock:	i NEED to be ready for havok4 in all circumstances
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	But, when it comes to vehicles... you'll just have to wait for us to start fixing some of those bugs.
[17:36]	frageurs Hock:	i thoguht u guys were tying my cars, i have seen several lindens buying cars from me so i thought you guys bought it for havok4
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	As I said, I'm planning on starting vehicles next week.
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	No, there are a lot of Lindens out there, and I'm the lead on the Havok4 project, with only three other people helping me out.
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	Sidewinder has been buying a few vehicles and other objects and testing them.
[17:37]	frageurs Hock:	me and my friend can help you out we are all ready
[17:37]	frageurs Hock:	me it wazs more of ECo linden
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	But the two dev's are typically just focusing on all the bugs on their plate.
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	Ooops. I should have said four other people. I've also got Dan Linden in QA who tests stuff and verifies fixed bugs.
[17:38]	frageurs Hock:	nice
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	This would be my advice frageurs: there are different levels of effort you can take for these vehicle problems:
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	(1) active -- browse all the vehicle bugs on jira.secondlife.com and enter new ones that you know about
[17:39]	frageurs Hock:	my aim is that my cars should at least a minimum drive fairly on teh road, the small bugs we can fix that over time
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	(2) less active -- wait for me to take a pass at fixing vehicles, and then retest your vehicles and enter bugs for the ones still broken (hopefully there will be fewer broken ones once I get a chance to try to fix some of the known bugs)
[17:40]	frageurs Hock:	sure
[17:41]	frageurs Hock:	we can do that atleast now i know someone cares about me :)
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	Ok cool. Francis Chung also deals in ground vehicles and has entered a number of bugs and details about how his do not work quite right.
[17:41]	frageurs Hock:	Francis is a very good friend of mine
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	Cubey Terra has also entered several bugs.
[17:41]	frageurs Hock:	he is the one who told me about the problms
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	Ah good, Francis is spreading the word.
[17:42]	frageurs Hock:	hehe yea
[17:42]	frageurs Hock:	well his cars are pretty ok with some bugs
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	Anybody have some other (non-vehicle) issues or questions?
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, you were saying that you don't have a compiler to build the viewer source code?
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, what platform are you using? Windows, Mac, or Linux?
[17:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	Windows XP, If I've anything lying about, it's for older Windows
[17:45]	frageurs Hock:	Ok i am off, Thanks alot Andrew
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	I was under the impression that there was a "free as in beer" or very cheap version of Visual Studio that could compile the project.
[17:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'd never asked
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	Linux is free, so you could install that and have a build environment.
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	But there is a learning curve there.
[17:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	Yeah, Linux has a something, didn't really works; wants a seperate machine
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, your best bet would be to check around the wiki.secondlife.com site for info on how to build the viewer
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	I think there are several pages of info and HOWTO's
[17:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	Okay, I know a Technical Obsolescent, who'd like to return to business.
[17:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	Her husband managed to outspend his retirement
[17:48]	TW Whiteberry:	Heya Grier
[17:48]	Tanath Seelowe:	/hug frag
[17:48]	Grier Ireland:	hey hon
[17:48]	Tanath gives frageurs a big hug.
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	You saying she's thinking about starting business in SL? Or she might be able to help you figure out how to compile the viewer?
[17:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	She's a quarter million in debt, so SL Business won't cut the mustard.
[17:49]	Tanath Seelowe:	/hug frag
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	Ouch.
[17:49]	Tanath gives frageurs a big hug.
[17:49]	Tanath gives frageurs a VERY BIG hug.
[17:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	Rebuilding the Documentation Paradigm might be a start
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	What do you mean "Documentation Paradigm"?
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	Like... competing with PDF or MicroSoft Word?
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	Or are you suggesting we change how SL is documented?
[17:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't even know what those are, unless you mean the style of output? No, more like, how can Tech Writers demand respect amongst the Geeks
[17:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	SL is probably ahead of the curve, so would offer a good perspective
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, good question about how tech writes can get respect. Speaking as a "geek" I've got high standards.
[17:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	When a programmer uses a structured model, he doesn't lose himself as easily, but an Object Oriented paradigm allows others to use his packages blindly
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	That said, I've been impressed with how well wiki's work. I'm pretty much a wiki convert.
[17:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	In theory, even I could enter into a wiki, but I still haven't accepted it as possible
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	yes, definitely. You should try editing the wiki.secondlife.com pages.
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	Start with the first spelling or grammar typo you find ;-)
[17:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	Given how well Geeks study English... Could I use the word Asymptote?
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	Sure, as long as you use it correctly.
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	If you think your readers won't know what it is then hyperlink it to wikipedia.
[17:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	Grammar is normally taught all wrong, by the way, it's not a bunch of rules, as teachers believe.
[17:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	Where do I find the word Asymptote?
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	Really? I thought grammar was a bunch of rules. I've got a book somewhere that I bought at the end of high school that is a great reference for the rules.
[17:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	If grammar were only rules, there'd be no irony. Grammar is a game, where we try to communicate ideas.
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptote
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	Huh... I would have thought that irony was linearly independent from grammar in most cases.
[18:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm also wondering how to find the Jira
[18:00]	snaibi Meili:	hiiiiiiiiiii
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	jira.secondlife.com
[18:00]	TW Whiteberry:	Heya Snaibi
[18:00]	Grier Ireland:	hello
[18:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'll have to ask, at the Documentation Depot, tommorrow,
[18:00]	snaibi Meili:	: )
[18:01]	snaibi Meili:	u look good
[18:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	http://jira.secondlife.com
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	you can find the transcripts of these office hours via: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Andre_Linden
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	oops... typo
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	that would be Andrew_Linden
[18:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	I have a lot of trouble, finding things I've seen before.
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	I can usually google and find the old pages that I've once found
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	four well chosen keywords, or a quoted phrase from the page usually works for me
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	Some things I bookmark, but I bookmark into folders so I don't get lost in a flat list of bookmarks.
[18:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Yeah, I was just lecturing, in last night's class, rename your object, or you'll have a lost and found filled with Object
[18:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ever hear of a guy named Lucus?
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	Not that I recall. Got a last name? Doesn't ring a bell.
[18:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't know where Stanford is from San Francisco, but that's where he wrote a book, on Organic Chemistry
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	Stanford is south of SF. West of San Jose.
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I'm going to have to run very soon.
[18:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Might have been Lucas... Before Lucas, Isaac Asimove knew enough Organic Chemistry to be a Scientist, but Lucas wrote a book, advancing Organic Chemistry from a Laboratory Study to a Science, and Asimove became a Science Fiction Writer.
[18:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Good chatting.
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, it was. There is a lot to learn in O-Chem.
[18:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm having trouble navigating the projects of Jira. I don't know what to report where
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	These days the vast majority if scientists are specialists.
[18:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	There is now, it used to be lab notes
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	Generalists tend to wander out to become writers, engineers, or some other technically tangent field.
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	Er... generalists or non-masters.
[18:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ever hear of Factors?
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	No, in what context?
[18:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	People, who purchase from the cottage producers, so they can wholesale the merchandise. I think Factories might be named for them
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	Ah, no I hadn't heard the term used for that, however I understand how such a niche would exist.
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	Ok see you around Arawn. Gott go.
[18:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Intellectual Factors, might be a concept
[18:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	and we have to do something about Damping 'Primitive Params
[18:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've a set of wings, I could show
[18:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Looks good on my viewer, but probably not on yours
[18:11]	Andrew Linden:	Ah, you mean we should interpolate between prim params? To smooth the effect?
[18:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	Yeah, and I think it would help us towards the Joint Problem
[18:12]	Andrew Linden:	I'd rather write some prim animation tools, to make it more of a viewer-side effect
[18:12]	Andrew Linden:	Such prim animation is a load on the simulator
[18:12]	Andrew Linden:	however... not for attachments in Havok4. We've fixed that problem.
[18:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, we'd be able to use llTargetOmega on wheels?
[18:13]	Andrew Linden:	No... wheels need special handling. llTargetOmega applies to entire linked sets atm
[18:13]	Andrew Linden:	and will forevermore
[18:13]	Andrew Linden:	since so much content relies on its behavior to not change
[18:13]	Andrew Linden:	No... for wheels we'll have to add new stuff... llWheelSomethingOrOther()
[18:13]	Andrew Linden:	Cheers.