User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 08 10

Transcript

[10:59]	Moon Metty:	hey Andrew :)
[10:59]	Youri Ashton:	hi andrew
[10:59]	reddot99 Republic:	hey andrew, got a sim crash mode for ya
[10:59]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Andrew
[10:59]	Latif Khalifa:	hey andrew :)
[10:59]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[11:00]	Welcome to	Linden office hours
[11:00]	reddot99 Republic:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-730
[11:00]	Andrew Linden:	The internet is not something that you just dump something on.
[11:00]	Andrew Linden:	It's not a big truck.
[11:00]	Andrew Linden:	It's a series of Tubes!
[11:00]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[11:00]	Moon Metty:	hehehe
[11:00]	Ovaltine Constantine:	Teehee
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	Sorry, that's what I'm listening to on my music stream.
[11:01]	Jumpman Lane:	lol if u say so
[11:01]	Youri Ashton:	its more a series of 1's and 0's
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	Ok seriously...
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	reddot99, you have a crash mode?
[11:01]	reddot99 Republic:	yeah
[11:01]	Ovaltine Constantine:	Stop The Madness
[11:01]	reddot99 Republic:	sec 730
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	you mean you have an object that can crash? ok good, an SEC issue
[11:02]	reddot99 Republic:	from havok 7 rez queue overflowing
[11:02]	reddot99 Republic:	at least, thats my bet as to cause
[11:02]	Youri Ashton:	no Simon today?
[11:02]	Latif Khalifa:	havok 7 rez queue seems to wreck havoc ;)
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Oh right. Simon said he can't make it today.
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	He's got another meeting that is interferring with this one.
[11:03]	reddot99 Republic:	was reproduced several times, apparently,
[11:03]	Youri Ashton:	ah okay, 2bad he can not join us
[11:03]	reddot99 Republic:	though, it'd be difficult to use as a greifing vector as it requires multiple people
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	ok thanks for mentioning that crash mode reddot99. I'll look at it later today.
[11:04]	Jumpman Lane:	Jumpman lane
[11:04]	reddot99 Republic:	as one person would hit grey goo fence too soon
[11:04]	Sindra Aquila:	i think i saw grey goo fence working, not sure, but all pgys stopped it was not seen before
[11:05]	Sindra Aquila:	many phys objects in the air
[11:05]	reddot99 Republic:	thats called physlock
[11:05]	Chaley May:	/
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	I don't have much news today. I'm currently working on a testplan for the SVC-93 fix, so I can make sure it is working correctly before I submit it.
[11:06]		http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-93
[11:06]	Moon Metty:	cool
[11:06]	Moon Metty:	i added a comment today
[11:07]	Moon Metty:	i'm not sure if it's a good idea .. but there you have it
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Someone was telling me about a problem where dynamic (physics) objects are moving to <128,128,0> in cases of extreme lag.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Has anyone here seen that happen?
[11:07]	reddot99 Republic:	christoph naumova?
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah.
[11:08]	Youri Ashton:	isnt that the same as my problem?
[11:08]	reddot99 Republic:	he was saying they moved to there waiting for rez queue
[11:08]	Sindra Aquila:	in a very laggy situation all seems onlyt to stop
[11:09]	reddot99 Republic:	because you can see them be created and then they disappear all of a sudden
[11:09]	Sindra Aquila:	they cluster in a bunch, then move again, bit not seen displacement
[11:10]	reddot99 Republic:	i was trying to make something so i could see where objects went during the rez queue time
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	ok, that is now known as "physlock", but you aren't seeing them migrate to <128,128,0>?
[11:11]	reddot99 Republic:	that would require somebody to be looking at that position
[11:11]	Moon Metty:	would a sensor pick the objects up?
[11:11]	Sindra Aquila:	no, they disaappeared, then rezzed in a cluster, after time they moved again, where they were supposed ot go,
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, but big objects on shallow regions might be visible.
[11:11]	reddot99 Republic:	sensors run in loops strangely during rez queuing
[11:12]	reddot99 Republic:	they contunue even if theres a control event telling them to stop
[11:13]	reddot99 Republic:	sensor repeat anyhow does that
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Well, you're all going to have to come up with agenda items today. I don't have much.
[11:14]	reddot99 Republic:	the center of sim thing seems to simply be a spot where havok 7 is processing queue based from,
[11:15]	Sindra Aquila:	any progress in making a material with very high friction or restitution?
[11:15]	Youri Ashton:	well, can always tell how far you are on the problem I told you :p
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	I've got to wrap up a few misc coding projects that are pending review (terrain collisions, and SVC-93) then maybe start working on a few eays bugs for a day or two
[11:15]	Moon Metty:	:)
[11:15]	reddot99 Republic:	anything from falcon on raycasting?
[11:15]	Opensource Obscure:	( if/when there aren't other topics, I'd like to learn more about how child agents impact on a region )
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Sindra, Falcon was working on the customizable friction/restitution.
[11:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: a status update on the HTTP Texture work would be cool, if you have time.
[11:16]	Techwolf Lupindo:	/me looks for flying pigs, LL is actually fixing bugs. :-)
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	He showed me a demo of the high friction working.
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	Dunno where it sits right now.
[11:16]	Sindra Aquila:	nice, so there is some progress
[11:16]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I've created a few jiras on the http texture stuff for sim side.
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know the state of the raycasting project.
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Falcon was out of the office for a while, but he just got back.
[11:17]	reddot99 Republic:	i've found a couple of older projects that need raycasting to work properly, and vehicles even, which i remember he had mentioned
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	I'll probably have more Falcon news on Friday.
[11:17]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, can you say if LL ever talked to Havok engineers about the 'fin' probblem, back in the time of the h1/h4 change over, and what Havok may have said about the problem?
[11:18]	reddot99 Republic:	fin problem?
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Anybody know? Does LL provide a SnowGlobe build? Or do you have to build it yourself?
[11:18]	reddot99 Republic:	they provide one
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Ok thanks.
[11:18]	Sindra Aquila:	i have snowglobe and downloaded it
[11:18]	reddot99 Republic:	i dont know how to build a veiwer, so yeah, they'd have to
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	The "fin problem" is what Kitto Flora calls the "collisions on hidden faces at prim boundaries" problem.
[11:19]	Sindra Aquila:	it works very good sofar
[11:19]	Moon Metty:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowglobe
[11:19]	Opensource Obscure:	there are links to three builds of Snowglobe , automatically updated there
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	Where a vehicle bumps over the seam where two prims bump up next to each other.
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	SVC-5880 is one of many bug reports all relating to spurious collision 'fins' on prim cornerrs
[11:19]		http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5880
[11:19]	Opensource Obscure:	(er, not sure about that 'automatically')
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	I'm pretty sure Falcon has an experimental fix for the "fin" problem. I need to ask him for the latest state of that.
[11:20]	Ardy Lay:	We had to have a few regions restarted last night as textures were not loading via HTTP. The requests were acting like they had hit a "tar pit".
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	But what of discussion with Havok LLC?
[11:20]	Ardy Lay:	OO, yes, that page is being updated prgrammatically.
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	Oh really? HTTP texture downloads can get blocked? Hrm.
[11:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sit down, Ovaltine
[11:21]	Sindra Aquila:	lol
[11:21]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, it "felt like" the requests were hitting a "tar pit server", if you know what those are.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	I downloaded the experimental HTTP texture enabled viewer, but havent' yet installed it.
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	No, I'm not familiar with a "tar pit" server, but I can guess what the performance is like.
[11:22]	Ardy Lay:	TCP SYN was getting ACKd just soon enough to keep the viewer from giving up.
[11:22]	Moundsa Mayo:	Do those run the 'La Brea' Linux distro?
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	No, all of our servers run debian/GNU-Linux
[11:23]	Ardy Lay:	The simulator was giving us the HTTP Textures CAP and URLs and the tar-pit-like behaviour was preventing fallback to UDP.
[11:23]	reddot99 Republic:	andrew, i think you missed the joke,
[11:23]	Moundsa Mayo:	He's not an Angeleno B^)
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah probably. "La Brea" is a name of some tar pits?
[11:24]	reddot99 Republic:	the la brea tarpits are famous for containing lots of fossils
[11:24]	Moundsa Mayo:	Yah, in downtown LA
[11:24]	Moon Metty:	hehehe
[11:24]	Ardy Lay:	So we just saw cached textures and all else was grey or round in the case of sculpted prims.
[11:25]	Ardy Lay:	A tar-pit server is designed to hold the attention of scanning malware for analysis.
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	interesting. I can't remember which LL devs are the current experts at the HTTP download pipeline.
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	I'll try to remember to ask around.
[11:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: Imprudence's latest weekly is running very stably with HTTP Textures (including Robin's latest fixes from Snowglobe). I'm running it now (Linux), it works a treat -- http://imprudenceviewer.org/2010/08/08/imprudence-weekly-release-2010-08-07/
[11:27]	Ardy Lay:	The fun thing about the issues was once you visited a region you "got tar in your sockets" and HTTP textures failed to function at the viewer in all other regions you visited until you relogged.
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	That's good to hear Morgaine. I'm looking forward to those fixes getting distributed more.
[11:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: any idea on the state of HTTP Texture work with respect to bakes?
[11:28]	Ardy Lay:	Texture console showed dozens of pending connections and they did the hold-off dance instead of resetting when the texture was no longer in-scene.
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	No Morgaine. Are baked textures currently not included in the set of textures served by HTTP ?
[11:29]	Ardy Lay:	Looks like baked skins are NOT available to be fetched via HTTP.
[11:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	I believe that Robin and Latif say that no, currently. And there is a problem with bake uploads too, in that the cap is disabled I think. Latif knows the details.
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Well if that is true Ardy then I suspect they'll be able to fix that tar-pit bug.
[11:30]	office hours	is half over
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	It shouldn't be too hard to remove pending textures that are no longer in view.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	I was thinking about how to also send down the region's static geometry data via HTTP.
[11:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	yes!
[11:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Robin mentioned that today too. Needs doing.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	That is one of the directions we're thinking about going for initial overhaul of the "interestlist" stuff
[11:33]	reddot99 Republic:	have they included your sobjects discovery in most of the newer veiwer builds?
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	it isn't in 2.1.0 yet, but is in a beta 2.1.1, and also in snowglobe
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	the 2.1.1 will be released publicly soon, I hear.
[11:34]	Opensource Obscure:	a beta was released today
[11:34]	Moon Metty:	it 's already out
[11:34]	Opensource Obscure:	not officially announced yet i think though
[11:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	All the active TPVs seem to have it in. What a good find.
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	honestly, I thought it was out already and went looking on the main secondlife.com download page for it
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	but couldn't find it
[11:34]	Moon Metty:	it's not on the download page, no
[11:34]	Opensource Obscure:	it's in the wiki. http://bit.ly/bhJzrt
[11:35]	reddot99 Republic:	ok, that works for me, i dont like veiwer 2 still, i'm going to keep using snowglobe or other clients with the older ui,
[11:35]	Youri Ashton:	ugh, i wonder why some people keep causing problems, just had to make sure a newby didnt use his "fun" again in a friends sim
[11:35]	Sindra Aquila:	also because mouselook?
[11:35]	Youri Ashton:	heya rex
[11:36]	reddot99 Republic:	i dont know what happens to mouselook in veiwer 2
[11:36]	Rex Cronon:	hi youri
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Ardy I've been meaning to mention to you... the overhaul of group chat will probably fix some of your issues with losing individual-to-individual chat
[11:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: are you looking to make the interest list cap-driven? We've long wanted the ability to select what is sent to client, for example no graphic data at all for text-only clients. Big saving for all.
[11:36]	Sindra Aquila:	cluttering up, you cant set #lines, and the plain tekst is not all in left corner
[11:36]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, that good to hear.
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	as I understand it, one-to-one chat is a much easier sub-problem of the group chat one, and they're planning on overhauling all of the chat pipeline
[11:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Good news
[11:37]	Vikas Jules:	is der ny indian
[11:38]	Rex Cronon:	there is a problem with one 2 one chat?
[11:38]	reddot99 Republic:	does that mean the various hack's people have found to say things to everyone in region wont work anymore?
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, I had an interesting talk with another LL dev about whether to complicate the interestlist download pipeline with type subscription
[11:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	With what outcome?
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	he was making a compelling argument for just keeping the system simple and packing it up into not too big HTTP downloads
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	so that is probably the way we'll go -- everything (static) that we currently cache would be in a few ~100kB HTTP assets
[11:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well I can't see any compelling argument for sending text-only client graphic data :P
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	once we know how to efficiently break up the whole set into such chunks perhaps we can start typing it out and making the various types subscribable
[11:40]	reddot99 Republic:	morgaine, remember youtube's aprilfools day joke?
[11:40]	Sindra Aquila:	in mouselook it is necessary, not out of it
[11:40]	reddot99 Republic:	ASCIp?
[11:41]	reddot99 Republic:	thats what should be done, lol
[11:41]	Techwolf Lupindo:	/me returns from creating another http texture sim jira and catches up on chat.
[11:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	100Kb versus zero. Lemme see now, that's a ratio of infinity. Not a large enough saving? ;-)
[11:41]	Moon Metty:	lol Techwolf
[11:41]	Qie Niangao:	Philip said something about making content easier to get at, after acquired... could any of that involve making llGiveInventoryList() work across sims? (just ignore, if that's an old discussion)
[11:42]	reddot99 Republic:	yes, please have that work for agents across sim boundries
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	Qie, I'm guessing he was talking about buyng goods in SL
[11:42]	Youri Ashton:	isnt old, still going on
[11:42]	Qie Niangao:	right... but so was I, in my cryptic way
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	vendors currently have to pack stuff up in boxes, and then you pull the items out of contents
[11:42]	Youri Ashton:	i kinda wonder the same thing
[11:42]	Imaze Rhiano:	would be just better if there would be somekind separated packaging, delivery and update method
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	so I think he was actually thinking specifically about that problem, but lumping it into a general category of making content just work better
[11:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: you'll have to add interest list selection for sim scalability anyway, in due course. I recommend doing it sooner rather than later.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	yup
[11:43]	Techwolf Lupindo:	this http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6069 can be causing the tar pit issues. Many connections are created and broken for each texture download, note that each single texture require about 5 created and broken connections.
[11:43]	Http GET	texture not using keep-alive on sim side.
[11:43]	Qie Niangao:	with llGiveInventoryList, the buyer at least gets a folder of stuff, instead of a box of stuff... but can't do that with netowrked vendors.
[11:44]	reddot99 Republic:	svc 868
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to have to leave for an 11:45 meeting
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming.
[11:45]	Qie Niangao:	thanks Andrew.
[11:45]	Moundsa Mayo:	Thank you, Andrew.
[11:45]	Chaley May:	bye
[11:45]	Moon Metty:	thank you Andrew
[11:45]	Sindra Aquila:	thanks andrew, have nice day

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