User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2008 10 15

From Second Life Wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search
The printable version is no longer supported and may have rendering errors. Please update your browser bookmarks and please use the default browser print function instead.

Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[8:06] Babbage Linden: hi nock

[8:06] Nock Forager: Hi

[8:06] Babbage Linden: how's things?

[8:06] Nock Forager: The weather goes cold so quickly.

[8:06] Babbage Linden remembers he hasn't replied to LSL con invite

[8:07] Nock Forager: hehe

[8:07] Babbage Linden: let me look at my calendar

[8:07] Nock Forager: http://lsl-con.org/2008/lsl-convention-2008-en.php

[8:07] Nock Forager: We've added google calendar on the page.

[8:08] Nock Forager: Could be helpful to comvert timezone difference.

[8:08] Fake Fitzgerald: hello

[8:08] Nock Forager: Hi Fake

[8:08] Babbage Linden: how about friday 24th during the day GMT

[8:08] Babbage Linden: hi fake

[8:09] Nock Forager: 24th day GMT is...

[8:09] Babbage Linden: friday

[8:09] Nock Forager: on SLT 8am or 7am?

[8:09] Babbage Linden: yes

[8:09] Babbage Linden: 7am would be better

[8:09] Nock Forager: nice

[8:10] Nock Forager: 7am is our 23:00 night.

[8:10] Nock Forager: Many scripters are nightshifter :)

[8:10] Nock Forager: it would be better :)

[8:10] Nock Forager: OK I'll put it on the schedule.

[8:10] Babbage Linden: ok, great

[8:11] Babbage Linden: i'll put it in the calendar

[8:11] Nock Forager: If you have some theme on your mind, let me know before it.

[8:11] Nock Forager: I'll translate it in digest before your talk.

[8:12] Babbage Linden: done

[8:12] Nock Forager: Thanks.

[8:12] Babbage Linden: new script region?

[8:12] Nock Forager: Hi Scouse.

[8:12] Nock Forager: yes

[8:12] Scouse Linden: hi

[8:12] Nock Forager: We talking about our convention. LSL convention 2008.

[8:12] Nock Forager: http://lsl-con.org/2008/lsl-convention-2008-en.php

[8:13] Babbage Linden: ok good

[8:13] Babbage Linden: so, have any of you had any problems or successes with Mono this week?

[8:14] Nock Forager: Fake? you speaking about your script odd beheivior?

[8:15] Babbage Linden: we've been looking in to the remaining issues around http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2908

[8:15] Fake Fitzgerald: yeah, I heard Babbage about garbage collection on mono scripts previous week

[8:15] Babbage Linden: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2975

[8:15] Babbage Linden: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3137

[8:16] Babbage Linden: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9486

[8:16] Babbage Linden: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3220

[8:16] Babbage Linden: if anyone can help narrow those down it would be greatly appreciated

[8:17] Fake Fitzgerald: I'd worked hard on this week, so I couldn't program with LSL. but I do not hear from my friend about mono errors.

[8:17] Babbage Linden: we've also fixed a problem with LSL script state changes

[8:17] Babbage Linden: which was a critical issue as it caused sim crashes and affected LSL scripts

[8:17] Dizzy Banjo: hey peeps

[8:17] Fake Fitzgerald: hi Dizzy

[8:17] Babbage Linden: running on the LSO engine

[8:17] Nock Forager: Hi Dizzy

[8:17] Babbage Linden: we'll deploy that fix urgently

[8:18] Babbage Linden: and then the mono only issues in 1.25 server or 1.26 server

[8:18] Babbage Linden: but I think we've very nearly ironed all the kinks out of mono now

[8:18] Babbage Linden: which is great

[8:19] Babbage Linden: we'll be starting the HTTP In beta on the preview grid soon

[8:19] Babbage Linden: it will probably be available on a couple of sandbox regions initially

[8:19] Nock Forager: Does it need client update too?

[8:19] Babbage Linden: and I encourage all of you to have a play

[8:19] Babbage Linden: no HTTP In is all server side

[8:20] Babbage Linden: it's a suite of new LSL library functions

[8:20] Babbage Linden: and a new event http_request

[8:20] Babbage Linden: that allows LSL scripts to act as HTTP servers

[8:20] Babbage Linden: it both allows bidirectional communication with the web

[8:21] Valiant Westland: That's terrific

[8:21] Babbage Linden: and secure object-object communication inside SL

[8:21] Babbage Linden: so no more random chat channel generation

[8:21] Hesius Heron: A prim IM?

[8:21] Valiant Westland: What data types will be supported the tne new http_request?

[8:21] Valiant Westland: sheesh.... fat fingers.... "...by the new..."

[8:22] Babbage Linden: let me get you a link to the current external documentation

[8:23] Babbage Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_http_server/design

[8:23] Babbage Linden: there are the current details

[8:23] Dizzy Banjo: cool

[8:23] Babbage Linden: the design allows for both RESTful APIs implemented by scripts

[8:24] Babbage Linden: and capability based schemes

[8:24] Babbage Linden: using the caps system we use for the rest of SL

[8:24] Dizzy Banjo: apparently these guys are going to implement restful soon : http://www.pachube.com/ could be funky

[8:25] Dizzy Banjo: hi Lillie :)

[8:25] Babbage Linden: in order to provide more scalability than the existing email or XML-RPC in paths HTTP in doesn't do routing inside the SL grid

[8:25] Lillie Yifu: hihi

[8:25] Babbage Linden: so, you request an URL

[8:25] Babbage Linden: get back the public URL for the cap

[8:25] Babbage Linden: then need to tell clients about the public URL

[8:25] Babbage Linden: for them to communicate with you

[8:26] Babbage Linden: so, I anticipate a number of external dynamic DNS services springing up

[8:26] Siann Beck: Ah, that's the reason for the lifetime limits on the URLs. Makes sense.

[8:26] Babbage Linden: that will redirect stable URLs to the current public URL for the script

[8:26] Babbage Linden: which will change if the script changes region

[8:26] Babbage Linden: or the region restarts

[8:27] Lillie Yifu: so to have a surver in sl we need something outside of sl that will tell peopel wher eit is? I missed the first half of that.

[8:27] Babbage Linden: another interesting aspect of HTTP in is that it's the first client of our script resource limits framework

[8:28] Babbage Linden: each parcel is given a pool of URLs it can allocate

[8:28] Siann Beck: Lillie -- URLs expire when the script restarts, when you cross regions or TP.

[8:28] Babbage Linden: and each avatar has a pool of URLs for attachments

[8:28] Siann Beck: Thus you need an external routing resource.

[8:28] Valiant Westland: What are the proposed pool allocations/limits?

[8:28] Babbage Linden: let me get the current numbers...

[8:29] Imaze Rhiano: HOLA!

[8:29] Siann Beck: Hello Imaze.

[8:30] Lillie Yifu: kk is there a message for when that URL changes, so that the script can tell the outside that it's local address has changed?

[8:30] Babbage Linden: yes, the changed event will fire

[8:30] Babbage Linden: when URLs are lost

[8:31] Siann Beck: You have to use the change event, and check for the various changes that will cause the URL to expire.

[8:31] Siann Beck: Oh? Is there going to be a separate constant for that, Babbage?

[8:31] Lillie Yifu: so we need to document which ones those are completely

[8:31] Lillie Yifu: or is there going to be a flag for that?

[8:32] Siann Beck: It was my understanding that you had to specifically test for CHANGED_REGION, CHANGED_TELEPORT, etc.

[8:32] Babbage Linden: sorry, i'm having trouble finding the current proposed url pool numbers

[8:32] Lillie Yifu: also have something in the state_entry

[8:33] Lillie Yifu: since script reset won't be caught by changed

[8:33] Imaze Rhiano: why are we talking about changed events?

[8:33] Babbage Linden: siann, yes

[8:33] Siann Beck: It's on the wiki page; basically it's the same as the parcel prim limits, and 38 per av for attachments.

[8:33] Valiant Westland: Thanks for looking Babbage... when you find them can you shoot them out to the group please?

[8:33] Valiant Westland: Thanks Siann!

[8:33] Babbage Linden: you need to check changed events that may affect urls

[8:33] Siann Beck: There are some other factors too, I believe, but that's the basics.

[8:34] Lillie Yifu: so best would be to write a function

[8:34] Siann Beck: Ah, OK. So there isn't going to be a specific trigger for lost URLs?

[8:34] Lillie Yifu: fire the funciton in state entry, or on any of hte changed eents.

[8:34] Babbage Linden: yes

[8:34] Valiant Westland: What happens when an AV crosses a sim boundary during a data exchange?

[8:35] Siann Beck: I think it would be good to have a function to test if a URL is valid.

[8:35] Job Island Promoter: Imaze Rhiano Click GOTO PAGE and click the Magic Buttons for FREE L$.

[8:35] Babbage Linden: the event will be processed on one simulator or another

[8:36] Babbage Linden: so, if a request comes in while on the source sim before the crossing

[8:36] Lillie Yifu: nao spam Imaze por favor

[8:36] Babbage Linden: then the script will still be able to respond to is as normal

[8:36] Babbage Linden: if the request comes in after the crossing it will get a 404

[8:37] Babbage Linden: and will need to retry after the script has got a new URL

[8:37] Lillie Yifu: hmmm

[8:37] Babbage Linden: and propogated it to the client

[8:37] Siann Beck: Really? Right now an expired URL returns "missing cap"

[8:37] Lillie Yifu: would it be possible to have some way of precashing the new URL

[8:37] Valiant Westland: Good idea Lillie

[8:37] Lillie Yifu: so the outside can just ty the new url if he old one drops?

[8:38] Babbage Linden: not currently

[8:38] Lillie Yifu: that could be set to expire quickly if not actually used

[8:38] Babbage Linden: or easily

[8:38] Lillie Yifu: hmmm

[8:38] Lillie Yifu: so we could use antennas

[8:39] Babbage Linden: siann, that will probably be the same error then

[8:39] Siann Beck: Is that going to change, Babbage -- will expired URLs return a 404?

[8:39] Siann Beck: Ah, OK.

[8:39] Lillie Yifu: that is have an object in a sim that will route and which sits

[8:39] Lillie Yifu: and the attached object could talk to it

[8:39] Babbage Linden: most of the use cases will be static scripts that don't move

[8:39] Babbage Linden: and region restarts will be rare

[8:39] Siann Beck: Right.

[8:39] Valiant Westland: Unless we're talking about a HUD

[8:39] Lillie Yifu: I think that you should expect scripts on people

[8:39] Babbage Linden: so occasionally you will get a high latency request across a restart

[8:39] Lillie Yifu: because most rp systems

[8:40] Babbage Linden: most of the time it will be quick

[8:40] Lillie Yifu: will use this capability

[8:41] Lillie Yifu: my thoguth is that a better design pattern would be to encourage

[8:41] Lillie Yifu: attached http to talk to a static object.

[8:41] Babbage Linden: valiant, agreed, region crossing and request negotiation shouldn't create too much of a problem

[8:41] Babbage Linden: although lillie's approach would also work in some cases

[8:41] Lillie Yifu: and the static object talks to the touside world enough to tell the outside world what the new http is

[8:41] Siann Beck: I imagine a lot of the useage will be object-to-object.

[8:42] Babbage Linden: yes

[8:42] Lillie Yifu: siann ++

[8:42] Babbage Linden: it will be the best way to do secure script-script communications

[8:42] Babbage Linden: between objects

[8:42] Lillie Yifu: replacing all of the klunky ways we have right now

[8:43] Lillie Yifu: wouldit be faster than chat based interfaces?

[8:43] Babbage Linden: it should be about the same

[8:43] Siann Beck: How about in terms of lag?

[8:44] Babbage Linden: i imagine it will be about the same

[8:44] Babbage Linden: we should test it in beta

[8:45] Lillie Yifu: I'm willing to do that

[8:45] Babbage Linden: it will be much faster than XML-RPC or email

[8:45] Lillie Yifu: I even have just the object for it

[8:45] Siann Beck: Yay! :)

[8:45] Lillie Yifu: the piano will be a good test

[8:45] Babbage Linden: and more predicable under load

[8:45] Babbage Linden: XML-RPC is very variable

[8:46] Lillie Yifu: hmmm this could work for midi

[8:46] Lillie Yifu: (fianlly)

[8:46] Lillie Yifu: finally*

[8:46] Dizzy Banjo was just thinking that .. lol

[8:46] Babbage Linden: so, as there are lots more people here now

[8:46] Babbage Linden: i'll ask my first question again

[8:46] Babbage Linden: has anyone had any Mono problems or successes this week?

[8:47] Lillie Yifu: I have a big problem that has shown up with mono but it isn't a mono problem per se

[8:47] Twisted Laws: all is well for me :)

[8:47] Lillie Yifu: since lsl is also broken

[8:47] Imaze Rhiano: success - ya - problems - no

[8:47] Babbage Linden: what's the problem you've found lillie?

[8:47] Lillie Yifu: it's a problem with select and movement

[8:48] Lillie Yifu: small objects that move are filtered out if the object isn't selected

[8:48] Lillie Yifu: it breaks my keyboard badly

[8:48] Lillie Yifu: so the sim is still moving them

[8:48] Lillie Yifu: and if you select the object you can see them move

[8:48] Lillie Yifu: but not if the object is not selected

[8:48] Lillie Yifu: it showed up last server release

[8:48] Babbage Linden: sounds like an interest management issue

[8:48] Lillie Yifu: and has only gotten worse with this one.

[8:48] Babbage Linden: you're just not seeing small things move on the viewer?

[8:49] Lillie Yifu: Sidewinder said I should inflict on the person who is looking at the selection bugs

[8:49] Lillie Yifu: hmmmm

[8:49] Lillie Yifu: use case

[8:49] Lillie Yifu: piano keyboard

[8:49] Lillie Yifu: the kyes are prims

[8:49] Lillie Yifu: they move

[8:49] Babbage Linden: you should report it if you haven't already, yes

[8:49] Lillie Yifu: the first movement of a key is visible

[8:49] Lillie Yifu: and then after that, none of the others are

[8:49] Valiant Westland: I have one of those pianos! DAMNIT!

[8:49] Lillie Yifu: unless the avatar slects the object

[8:49] Lillie Yifu: and then they see the movement

[8:50] Babbage Linden: imaze, we're talking about HTTPS as HTTP In is going to be in beta soon

[8:50] Babbage Linden: it sounds like an interest management issue

[8:50] Imaze Rhiano: can objects talk with each other through http?

[8:50] PORTAL Stargate whispers: If the map doesn't appear, please touch the portal, then click TELEPORT on the map to travel.

[8:50] Siann Beck: Yes, Imaze.

[8:50] Imaze Rhiano: thank you - that is intresting

[8:50] Babbage Linden: if you have a copy of an object in your viewer you should see it move

[8:51] Babbage Linden: i don't think interest management has changed in the simulator

[8:51] Lillie Yifu: hmmm it seems to have soemthing to do with the long running compelxity of selection code that makes ll target omega fail every now and again

[8:51] Babbage Linden: so it may be a viewer issue

[8:51] Lillie Yifu: viewer sim communication issue possibly

[8:51] Lillie Yifu: but not a viewer issue alone

[8:51] Lillie Yifu: because it shows up on even some rather archaic viewers now

[8:51] Babbage Linden: interesting

[8:52] Lillie Yifu: say 1.18 nicholaz based viewers

[8:52] Babbage Linden: in which case please file a server JIRA

[8:52] Lillie Yifu: working on it

[8:52] Babbage Linden: and andrew will triage it next week

[8:52] Lillie Yifu: but needed to docuemnt and test cases

[8:52] Babbage Linden: that would be great

[8:52] Lillie Yifu: like getting 1.18 to work

[8:52] Siann Beck: Excuse me, I have to run. See you all later.

[8:52] Babbage Linden: as much information as possible that helps us track it down and repro it

[8:52] Lillie Yifu: thank you for being here siann

[8:52] Babbage Linden: good to see you again siann

[8:52] Siann Beck: Likewise!

[8:53] Babbage Linden: ok, I only have a few minutes left also

[8:53] Babbage Linden: anything else you'd like to talk about?

[8:53] Twisted Laws: how long before the http stuff is on the beta grid?

[8:54] Babbage Linden: in the next week or so I imagine

[8:54] Twisted Laws: :)

[8:54] Babbage Linden: the release team have it on their radar

[8:54] Babbage Linden: the code is ready to go

[8:54] Valiant Westland: Thanks for the time and info Babbage. If anyone here is looking for projects, especially those involving external communication, let me know. I've got a few in the hopper as we speak that I'll need halp with.

[8:55] Valiant Westland: Have a great day everyone!

[8:55] Babbage Linden: you too valiant

[8:55] Babbage Linden: if no one has any more questions, I'm going to head off too

[8:56] Twisted Laws: bye, thanks

[8:56] Imaze Rhiano: what was timetable of http in?

[8:56] Babbage Linden: as i

[8:56] Nock Forager: Thanks for meeting Babbage.

[8:56] Babbage Linden: mentioned before, please look in to http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2908 if you can

[8:56] Babbage Linden: as we're still working on it

[8:56] Imaze Rhiano: ok

[8:56] Babbage Linden: bye!

[8:56] Imaze Rhiano: bye

[8:57] Lillie Yifu: looking

[8:57] Dizzy Banjo: ok c u all :)

[8:58] Lillie Yifu: beijos!

[8:58] Nock Forager: cya!
Retrieved from "https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=User:Babbage_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_10_15&oldid=99333"