User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2010 03 10

Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[03:18]	Qie Niangao:	greetings, Babbage
[03:18]	Babbage Linden:	morning
[03:18]	Mourn Orsini:	does anyone know how I can delete this 2.0 viewer folders lol
[03:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Babbage!
[03:18]	Liisa Runo:	ask for the creator to send you version without invisprim
[03:18]	Aimee Linden:	I should probably just contact its creator and ask
[03:18]	Aimee Linden:	yeah
[03:18]	Chaley May:	I just heard Pathfinder Linden is leaving :(
[03:18]	Imaze Rhiano:	good day babbie
[03:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	We were getting worried.
[03:18]	Babbage Linden:	sorry I'm late, I'm working from home and needed to set up SL
[03:18]	Mourn Orsini:	current outfit and favorites folders?
[03:18]	Latif Khalifa:	hello Babbage
[03:18]	Tillie Ariantho:	Aimee: for me you are just not visible at all right now. ^^
[03:18]	Nock Forager:	hello babbage.
[03:18]	Cerdita Piek:	Hello Babbage
[03:18]	Mourn Orsini:	hi Babbage
[03:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Pathfinder is leaving? :(
[03:19]	Latif Khalifa:	setting up SL can be a bitch :P
[03:19]	Latif Khalifa:	Seb, got fired
[03:19]	Ilana Debevec:	morning babbage
[03:19]	Aimee Linden:	I'm the little gold pixie up near my name tag
[03:19]	Yu Toocool:	Too...... Fast.........................
[03:19]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Pathfinder? Fired?
[03:19]	Chaley May:	https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/educators/2010-March/038468.html
[03:19]	Sierra Janus:	Pathfinder got fired?
[03:19]	Ilana Debevec:	butterfly
[03:19]	Tillie Ariantho:	Aimee: ahh. ^^
[03:19]	Sierra Janus:	lol "Evangelist" :P
[03:19]	Eddi Decosta:	hi babage ㋡
[03:19]	Eddi Decosta:	babbage* sorry my tipos
[03:20]	Latif Khalifa:	Babbage, some stuff left over from the last week, how to deal with libraries for example :)
[03:20]	Babbage Linden:	/me pauses virus scan which is cripplingeverying
[03:20]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe.. Been there.
[03:20]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Persistent storage was another topic, and I have one also.
[03:20]	Babbage Linden:	ok, right, that's better
[03:21]	Babbage Linden:	so, what would we like to talk about
[03:21]	Ilana Debevec:	and I have a plea I want to make :) and some praise
[03:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aimee: apparently creators' wishes are only respected if it suits Lindens' business. According to the TPV doc, the creator's wishes and legal rights if they create open-licensed content with a GPL or Creative Commons are overridden and are not respected, at least by LL.
[03:21]	Babbage Linden:	librares and persistent storage are big ones
[03:21]	Latif Khalifa:	ides for how to deal with shared libraries
[03:21]	Babbage Linden:	what else?
[03:21]	Ilana Debevec:	Is there ANY possible chance of PRIM_NAME and PRIM_DESC making it into the 1.38 server... the llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsHolyCrapItsDoneAlready() I've already been rewriting our products for (and it works lovely), but PRIM_NAME and PRIM_DESC would speed/trim things even more.. and we have this terrible habit of 'free upgrades' and things like that can only help the grid.. it will be a PITA to have one set up upgrades then turn around and have to do it again in a month (or two), so.... would it do any good if I made sad kitty eyes to get 'em in????
[03:21]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Babbage, did you get the email I sent you earlier today?
[03:21]	Sierra Janus:	Some clauses in the TPV are a joke and will be treated as such
[03:21]	Qie Niangao:	update on when we'll get word of initial script memory limit settings?
[03:21]	Chaley May:	SHOUT: i cant hear babbage from way over there
[03:22]	Chaley May:	hi Babbage :)
[03:22]	Babbage Linden:	ok, that's better
[03:22]	Latif Khalifa:	I'd second extreme welcomness PRIM_NAME and PRIM_DESC would have :)
[03:22]	Babbage Linden:	so, 1.38 features, persistent storage, libraries
[03:22]	Ilana Debevec:	do I need to type that again>>>>
[03:22]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I would like those also, heh. Babbage - did you get the email I sent you earlier today?
[03:22]	Cerdita Piek:	I second PRIM_NAME and PRIM_DESC too :)
[03:23]	Liisa Runo:	and me
[03:23]	Imaze Rhiano:	fate of https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13228 ?
[03:23]	Tillie Ariantho:	Isnt there a way to lower the initial memory allocation of 64kb by Mono to 16kb so it works like LSL, only can get up to 64kb if needed?
[03:23]	Ilana Debevec:	I'll even give you a set of iBalls if we can get _NAME and _DESC in 1.38 :)
[03:24]	Babbage Linden:	ok, i think we have enough
[03:24]	Babbage Linden:	first off, 1.38
[03:24]	Babbage Linden:	the feature set is now frozen
[03:24]	Babbage Linden:	so, we're not going to have any more API changes in 1.38
[03:24]	Eddi Decosta:	Babbage you give me 2 mints , to get my coffee i want one this morning , lol 6h30am
[03:25]	Sierra Janus:	Fetch a heater to warm it up and let the feature creep xD
[03:25]	Eddi Decosta:	-t lol
[03:25]	Babbage Linden:	but if you make public JIRAs, vote for them and point me to them we can talk about putting them on the Pixie Dust backlog for later
[03:25]	Babbage Linden:	(kelly likes putting in new features when we finish a sprint early)
[03:26]	Ilana Debevec:	PRIM_NAME and PRIM_DESC were on the list almost from the beginning, on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5165
[03:26]	Latif Khalifa:	Babbage, since it's near the top of the list for may scripters PRIM_NAME and PRIM_DESC for get/set linked prim params, is it feasable for them to get into 1.40, I cannot imagine them being to difficult to implement
[03:26]	Babbage Linden:	they might have been on a list ;-)
[03:27]	Babbage Linden:	and no, I don't see them as being hard, so I'll see what I can do
[03:27]	Latif Khalifa:	yey!
[03:27]	Babbage Linden:	I would like to know how you're getting on with the 1.38 features on aditi
[03:27]	Eddi Decosta:	back with my coffee sorry ㋡
[03:27]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Babbage, I've done some work on a resizer script using llSLPPF/llGLPP and I sent you an email concerning my findings. I found a lot of issues while developing it, which I believe make it infeasible as a replacement for llSetObjectScale.
[03:27]	Babbage Linden:	any problems with them?
[03:27]	Ilana Debevec:	they are so closely lin ked to other things the Get/Set Link improvements, it will jsut mean double work for us that are recoding for them
[03:27]	Sierra Janus:	Need to use more meta issues I think
[03:28]	Sierra Janus:	jiras, tickets... whatever
[03:28]	Cerdita Piek:	I have tested a bit on aditi, the svc-3895
[03:28]	Babbage Linden:	(oskar has set up a server-beta mailing list which I encourage you to join)
[03:28]	Eddi Decosta:	Babbers ; not realy i have assisted on aditi oh in the last week, im happy of some new feature
[03:28]	Eddi Decosta:	babbage*
[03:29]	Cerdita Piek:	apparently there are no difference deleting scripts, i still notice a long spike when deleting objects with a lot of scripts.
[03:29]	Cerdita Piek:	rezzing them seems to go a bit faster :)
[03:29]	Babbage Linden:	thanks for the feedback cerditi
[03:29]	Ilana Debevec:	Kelly pointed out that you could just put in the new calls in the scripts, they wouldn't highlight, but would compile
[03:29]	Latif Khalifa:	only mono scripts, lso get killed instantly
[03:29]	Babbage Linden:	I have mostly been working on rez times
[03:29]	Babbage Linden:	I'll look at derez
[03:30]	Cerdita Piek:	but i only tested cubes with scripts, i think real avatars entering and leaving the sim might be very different over time
[03:30]	Babbage Linden:	are you seeing improvements in rez times?
[03:30]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yes
[03:30]	Babbage Linden:	great
[03:30]	Eddi Decosta:	babbage; can you said if the new param_text can fixes that jira: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-16980
[03:30]	Babbage Linden:	/me breathes a sigh of relief
[03:30]	Cerdita Piek:	i think rezzing the cubes were a bit faster. at least the difference rezzing and derezzing them were huge.
[03:31]	Latif Khalifa:	it's difficult to tell since the freezes get worse with the uptime and with a busy place that sees a lot avatars coming and goning. difficult conditions to replicate on aditi
[03:31]	Babbage Linden:	what's the easiest repro for the derez delays? just make a huge object with many scripts then delete it?
[03:31]	Mourn Orsini:	see you, gotta go
[03:31]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Take care Mourn.
[03:31]	Babbage Linden:	latif, right, there is lots of caching going on
[03:31]	Ilana Debevec:	I recoded a texture changer using the 'fast' call, for a 63 prim object it went from about 26 seconds to I couldn't get my finger off the mouse button
[03:31]	Babbage Linden:	so the best way to test is to make a scripted object in one region
[03:31]	Cerdita Piek:	i made 100 cubes with 10 scripts each
[03:31]	Babbage Linden:	recompile all scripts to make them new assemblies, not cached anywhere
[03:31]	Babbage Linden:	take the object in to your inventory
[03:31]	Babbage Linden:	and then rez
[03:32]	Cerdita Piek:	and i duplicate them, (control-draging ) it took a few seconds.
[03:32]	Babbage Linden:	check time
[03:32]	Babbage Linden:	then rez again
[03:32]	Cerdita Piek:	but deleting them, it took more than 40 seconds
[03:32]	Babbage Linden:	(second attempt should be much faster, as assemblies will be cached and not reloaded)
[03:32]	Latif Khalifa:	derez time seem to be high even with a same assembly
[03:32]	Babbage Linden:	ok, I will try to find some time to look at deleting
[03:32]	Cerdita Piek:	the scripts were not all the same.
[03:32]	Babbage Linden:	(although changes there will probably be in 1.40)
[03:33]	Babbage Linden:	you need to make sure you have many different scripts
[03:33]	Cerdita Piek:	100 script were recompiled, then duplicated 10 times
[03:33]	Babbage Linden:	so, even better would have been to duplicate then recompile the 1000 scripts
[03:33]	Cerdita Piek:	and then again duplicated 10 times
[03:33]	Babbage Linden:	but that would have taken a while
[03:33]	Babbage Linden:	(and at some point you hit the rez timeout and things just don't rez)
[03:34]	Cerdita Piek:	uhm, i will try to recompile more scripts next time
[03:34]	Babbage Linden:	I've been testing with objects containing 256 scripts, each recompiled to new assemblies
[03:34]	Babbage Linden:	and that seems to show the issues and improvements
[03:34]	Babbage Linden:	although, of, course, I would like to know about real world results
[03:34]	Cerdita Piek:	yes, trying to rez the objects from the inventory failed sometimes
[03:34]	Ardy Lay:	Babbage, Squirrel Wood has a very good demonstration of de-rez slowdowns to show you.
[03:35]	Babbage Linden:	ok, great
[03:35]	Cerdita Piek:	i mean, trying to rez a object with 200 prims and 20K scripts
[03:35]	Ardy Lay:	It's the terraforming tool.
[03:35]	Ardy Lay:	Just derezzing it is pain.
[03:35]	Babbage Linden:	has he sent me a copy?
[03:35]	Babbage Linden:	if not please ask him to
[03:35]	Ardy Lay:	I don't know.
[03:35]	Babbage Linden:	with instructions
[03:36]	Ardy Lay:	He showed up late last week. I can ask him to provide it. yes.
[03:36]	Babbage Linden:	(I get lots of stuff sent to me, so it needs to be clearly labelled)
[03:36]	Ardy Lay:	Okay
[03:36]	Babbage Linden:	so, any more 1.28 feedback I should know about?
[03:36]	Babbage Linden:	1.38, even?
[03:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yes babbage
[03:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I've been working with the resizing script as you suggested.
[03:37]	Eddi Decosta:	more stable, i think but i hope to see the behavior in agni for soon ㋡
[03:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Were you able to read the email I sent you earlier today?
[03:37]	Babbage Linden:	what was the sending address?
[03:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	babbage@lindenlab.com
[03:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I have a copy here if it would help.
[03:38]	Babbage Linden:	no, your address
[03:38]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	sebastean.steamweaver@curiouscontraptions.org
[03:38]	Cerdita Piek:	I also tested llLinkParticleSystem() and it seems to work fine.
[03:38]	Babbage Linden:	ok, found it
[03:38]	Babbage Linden:	it was filed away...
[03:38]	Babbage Linden:	will read later
[03:38]	Latif Khalifa:	it's feature request about object scale, i'm afraid we're gonna spend the rest of this hour on it, and i'd really like to hear about the other points on the agenda
[03:38]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	All right, thank you Babbage, I appreciate it.
[03:39]	Babbage Linden:	so, all the new functionality seems to work, rezzing is better, but derezzing needs work
[03:39]	Babbage Linden:	?
[03:39]	Eddi Decosta:	hey bababge why you dont assist at the Oskar OH , on aditi tomorrow? ㋡
[03:39]	Eddi Decosta:	babbage*
[03:40]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	That wasn't so painful, was it Latif? ;)
[03:40]	Babbage Linden:	i'll see when it is
[03:40]	Babbage Linden:	oskar is on the west coast
[03:40]	Cerdita Piek:	Also, in 1.38 there are several bugs with the avatar's permission system. I posted a jira about the animation permission.
[03:40]	Latif Khalifa:	it 11pm UK time ;)
[03:40]	Eddi Decosta:	yeah, i know that the times its at 3hours stl ㋡
[03:40]	Imaze Rhiano:	there is some debate about 1.38 to animation permissions here - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13228 - it seems like that it could break some content (personally - I hope that this fix is going to be committed)
[03:40]	Babbage Linden:	i won't be much use by then I don't think
[03:41]	Babbage Linden:	thanks Imaze, I will look at it
[03:41]	Babbage Linden:	ok, we're running out of time
[03:41]	Cerdita Piek:	SVC-5521 animation permissons seem to be lost in the change event :(
[03:41]	Eddi Decosta:	well, me i think you are welcome ㋡
[03:41]	Babbage Linden:	and we have big things to talk about
[03:41]	Babbage Linden:	first persistent storage
[03:41]	Babbage Linden:	it's clearly a big issue
[03:41]	Sierra Janus:	:)
[03:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Babbage, on the subject of persistent storage, we've been told that we can use PRM_TEXT to that effect. AS some others have mentioned, when you shift-copy, float text is not copied. Is that a possibility to have changed?
[03:42]	Babbage Linden:	a lot of the desire for setting names, descriptions and float text is to have persistent, dynamic, storage for scripts
[03:42]	Babbage Linden:	which is OK, as a workaround
[03:42]	Eddi Decosta:	babbage, yeah it is ㋡
[03:42]	Babbage Linden:	and will only add about 6M to the simulator footprint if it's fully used
[03:42]	Sierra Janus:	When hasn't there been a desire for persistant storage? :P
[03:42]	Babbage Linden:	so, that's probably OK
[03:42]	Babbage Linden:	and we should probably do it
[03:43]	Eddi Decosta:	somes issue give headhache in Bonus prime :p
[03:43]	Babbage Linden:	even though we'll end up with lots of prims called
[03:43]	Babbage Linden:	1,2,4,abc000....000def
[03:43]	Babbage Linden:	or whatever
[03:43]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Babbage; I don't think everyone plans on creating extensive prim databases. It's handy even with just one prim with float text.
[03:44]	Babbage Linden:	and, when it means people use prims just to store data it's a waste
[03:44]	Babbage Linden:	but, it's probably ok
[03:44]	Babbage Linden:	and easy to implement
[03:44]	Latif Khalifa:	prim names/description requests are not mainly for the persistent storage. is for the flags for a central script for indentifying which part they belong to and how to get textured etc.
[03:44]	Eddi Decosta:	what you think about 2.0 server listing its for soon or not realy? ㋡
[03:44]	Babbage Linden:	the bugger question is whether LL should offer a product that provides larger scale persistent storage services
[03:44]	Babbage Linden:	SQL or NoSQL for example
[03:44]	Sierra Janus:	Yes please :P
[03:45]	Babbage Linden:	traditionally we have kept out of that space
[03:45]	Latif Khalifa:	key/value store will be sufficient for most
[03:45]	Babbage Linden:	you can go and set up S3 or a google app
[03:45]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I believe someone asked that of Kelly, and Kelly's response was along the lines of, 'fat chance" X)
[03:45]	Babbage Linden:	and store data there
[03:45]	Imaze Rhiano:	simple key / string storage would be enough for most purposes
[03:45]	Sierra Janus:	HTTP overhead... yay...
[03:45]	Tillie Ariantho:	Where shall we store data if not in a prim?
[03:46]	Sierra Janus:	I know ages ago there was lots of requests to get write access to notecards from scripts
[03:46]	Babbage Linden:	is there a space for linden to provide a service between descriptions and the cloud?
[03:46]	Babbage Linden:	i think latency comes it to it a bit
[03:46]	Babbage Linden:	and price and convinience
[03:46]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Babbage, would a database be a viable "asset' that can be added to a prim?
[03:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'd just make a new writeable prim type, a binary map so it doesn't have to be parsed on reading it back.
[03:47]	Qie Niangao:	Yeah, it's crazy to go to the cloud for simple flat persistence if there's no logic happening there.
[03:47]	Babbage Linden:	we now have a product group, so we can potentially pitch it to them
[03:47]	Tillie Ariantho:	yah, having to parse stuff each time is YUCK.
[03:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	++tillie
[03:47]	Babbage Linden:	so, if we were to use the asset store for this, it would potentially change its usage a lot
[03:47]	Babbage Linden:	if scripts could create notecards for example
[03:48]	Sierra Janus:	That's what I was talking about
[03:48]	Babbage Linden:	then you could have all of the simulators generating data all day long
[03:48]	Babbage Linden:	and storing it as assets
[03:48]	Latif Khalifa:	Babbage, asset store is not good for this. Some new key/value store with an intergace simiral to memchached would be ideal
[03:48]	Latif Khalifa:	interface*
[03:48]	Babbage Linden:	right latif, but we don't have that now
[03:48]	Mojito Sorbet:	Perhaps THE asset store is not the place for storing mutable state. Another DB, more specialized and optimized for updates.
[03:48]	Babbage Linden:	so it would be a big job to set up
[03:48]	Tillie Ariantho:	A script could be used to store data, only NOT with the current implementation, cause you can hit a runtime error any time due to memory and then all is gone.
[03:48]	Babbage Linden:	we'd have to know what the market was etc.
[03:49]	Latif Khalifa:	so for now, use google app engine :)
[03:49]	Babbage Linden:	latif, yes, i think so
[03:49]	Babbage Linden:	i find it hard to believe that we can do a better job than the cloud in the short term
[03:49]	Babbage Linden:	and in some ways, it's good for us to be able to concentrate on SL
[03:50]	Sierra Janus:	It's just tiring to have so much reliance on external services
[03:50]	Babbage Linden:	and for the cloud providers to provide storage services
[03:50]	Babbage Linden:	sierra, right
[03:50]	Qie Niangao:	I think seeing this as a marketable product is also slightly off of the intent... just something we can Put and Get from dataserver
[03:50]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	right now, I'm happy to get PRIM_TEXT, but the copiability of the float text is an issue.
[03:50]	Babbage Linden:	external web servers is a definite bump in ease of use
[03:51]	Babbage Linden:	as a resident you can make a box, add a script, make it do something...
[03:51]	Babbage Linden:	the learning curve is quite easy until you get to "now go and set up a Google App'
[03:51]	Tillie Ariantho:	Babbage: I dont want to rely on inworld tools that store their data outside SL. You never know how long they will exists.
[03:51]	Tillie Ariantho:	exist
[03:51]	Eddi Decosta:	yeah Sebastean, but honestly i need to know if this parameter fixes the trouble on the viewer 2.0
[03:51]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Tillie, I have the same concern generally speaking.
[03:51]	Latif Khalifa:	Tillei, I bet google app engine will be there for a while :)
[03:51]	Babbage Linden:	so, maybe there is a space for the "easy to use interface to S3 or app engine" or whatever
[03:52]	Babbage Linden:	I would like that to be built by residents
[03:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	In VWRAP, everything's going to be decoupled as a service anyway, so we can expect sub-services to be offered by third parties. The problem is interfacing that to LSL, since LSL is not going to change.
[03:52]	Mojito Sorbet:	Even with Google Apps, I think Google expects to be paid
[03:52]	Babbage Linden:	hence, script libraries, our other topic :-D
[03:52]	Latif Khalifa:	yey
[03:52]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It's par tof the same problem I ahve with sound, heh. Everyone says "Media on a prim!" but it really doesn't answer all of sound's needs, and I'd prefer to have it based in SL.
[03:52]	Tillie Ariantho:	Latif: thought more of 3rd party storages, like everyone selling a product has his own webserver with DB behind it. That is no good.
[03:52]	Qie Niangao:	See, the problem is that *my* google app *won't* be there forever, so anybody using my product will be screwed when I pull the plug
[03:53]	Tillie Ariantho:	yah.
[03:53]	Babbage Linden:	SL can evolve much more quickly using other peoples services than by us building them I think
[03:53]	Mojito Sorbet:	The same applies to any inworld storage, if it is tied to the creator's account.
[03:53]	Latif Khalifa:	Qie, you ca screw you customers up by deleting sure. But do no evil and leave it alone :)
[03:53]	Qie Niangao:	but I can't *afford* to leave it up for everybody
[03:53]	Babbage Linden:	the multiple providers problem with many SLAs is a problem for all cloud apps
[03:53]	Tillie Ariantho:	People can get kicked from usage of google app usage, TOS, whatever, no?
[03:54]	Latif Khalifa:	Qie, app engine is free, easy to afford free
[03:54]	Qie Niangao:	and I really don't think a floppy's worth of "filesystem" flat persistence is a lot to ask of a scripting language.
[03:54]	Tillie Ariantho:	There can happen lots of...
[03:54]	Babbage Linden:	I'm not sure Linden would be able to provide a storage service with a better SLA than the other cloud providers
[03:54]	Qie Niangao:	app engine is free only for SMALL usage, Latif
[03:54]	Mojito Sorbet:	How much storage do you get for free?
[03:54]	Sierra Janus:	Qie++
[03:54]	Babbage Linden:	when you are selling an SL product that is a service
[03:54]	Babbage Linden:	(because it is using external storage)
[03:54]	Latif Khalifa:	app engine gives you 10 apps for free, each with 1gb file store and 1gb database storage
[03:54]	Babbage Linden:	then you need to be clear that's what you're doing
[03:54]	Sierra Janus:	Shouldn't need to sell a product as a service simply due to lack of persistant storage
[03:54]	Eddi Decosta:	Qie free for small usage?
[03:54]	Latif Khalifa:	so you get 10gigs for free from google in 10 apps
[03:55]	Eddi Decosta:	dont like this term lol
[03:55]	Mojito Sorbet:	Sierra has a good point
[03:55]	Babbage Linden:	an SL hat might be offered as a virtual object
[03:55]	Babbage Linden:	but if it auto updates etc
[03:55]	Babbage Linden:	then it's a service
[03:55]	Eddi Decosta:	virtual object created by all old resident ㋡
[03:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Scripting in Mono will diverge from scripting in LSL once we have libraries --- that will probably be when we can interface third party services. But Mono is sandboxed, so hard to see how we can hook in 3rd party services freely.
[03:55]	Tillie Ariantho:	Babbage: yah, buf it I buy a building tool, I want it still working if the creator left SL, cause he got bored, banned, whatever...
[03:56]	Sierra Janus:	Tillie+++
[03:56]	Babbage Linden:	tillie, right
[03:56]	Eddi Decosta:	with out old resident ll and second life are nothing ㋡
[03:56]	Babbage Linden:	that's a hard problem
[03:56]	Babbage Linden:	your best bet is to only use open source LSL scripts in that case
[03:56]	Tillie Ariantho:	And with the current TOS you can get banned quite fast, and with the current lag and other problems some people get bored/annoyed pretty fast, too. ^^
[03:57]	Tillie Ariantho:	So the change of a creator being here 1 year after I bought an item from him, is... not so good.
[03:57]	Tillie Ariantho:	chance
[03:57]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I will say lag isn't quite as much of an issue as it used to be. I remember times when it was much worse.
[03:57]	Babbage Linden:	and for those reasons I imagine there will be lots of open source scripting libraries
[03:57]	Latif Khalifa:	Seb, you and I are using different SL lol
[03:57]	Sierra Janus:	Heh, I'm fairly lag resistant, I spent most of my "second life" with 200-500ms ping :P
[03:57]	Babbage Linden:	some people will prefer them to libraries bought from people who might not be around
[03:57]	Mojito Sorbet:	Difficult to run a business selling scripted items with open source scripts in them
[03:58]	Tillie Ariantho:	Seb: lag, whatever... maybe his misunderstanding of "IP protection" thats not really possible in SL... lots of possible causes. ^^
[03:58]	Qie Niangao:	so, every app that writes or reads a file must be seen as a service? Magic 8-Ball says "outlook is 'CLOUDY'"
[03:58]	Liisa Runo:	if it is slower than llList2Integer(data,i); it lags
[03:58]	Babbage Linden:	morgaine, Mono is sandboxed
[03:58]	Latif Khalifa:	Babbage, how would you imagine libraries being sold?
[03:58]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Personally, I imagine I'll be creating my own libraries - simply because there I know exactly what's going on in them - and I like hands-on stuff :)
[03:58]	Babbage Linden:	but you will be able to right APIs to external web services
[03:58]	Babbage Linden:	write, even
[03:59]	Babbage Linden:	sebastean, right, you can build your own libraries
[03:59]	Babbage Linden:	and benefit from modularity and bytecode sharing
[03:59]	Tillie Ariantho:	All I want is my tools still working in the future, and they need some storage for data. And storing data in a script is no good idea right now, as they break often.
[03:59]	Babbage Linden:	but you could also sell them like any other script in SL
[04:00]	Sierra Janus:	Babbage: That's what I envisioned it like
[04:00]	Latif Khalifa:	So from inside the script you would do something like LoadLibrary(UUID assemblyID) where assemblyID would basically be asset uuid of the compiled library?
[04:00]	Sierra Janus:	And use existing permission systems
[04:00]	Babbage Linden:	or give them away or open source them
[04:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	In the case that something should happen to me, I'd be leaving all of my stuff, scripts and all, to Sierra. He'd be doing with them as he wished of course, but my scripts wouldn't be totally kaput.
[04:00]	Mojito Sorbet:	All these workarounds because LL cant figure out how to implement a mutable asset store?
[04:00]	Babbage Linden:	(we're running out of time, but quickly here's how I imagine it)
[04:00]	Babbage Linden:	you would put you library scripts in a prim
[04:01]	Babbage Linden:	create a new script which just uses your library
[04:01]	Babbage Linden:	and when you compile the sim will work out which assemblies your script can reference
[04:02]	Chaley May:	sounds great
[04:02]	Babbage Linden:	the prim provides the scoping
[04:02]	Mojito Sorbet:	What happens when you move the object?
[04:02]	Mojito Sorbet:	to another sim
[04:02]	Babbage Linden:	the libraries and script will be caried around with the prim
[04:02]	Latif Khalifa:	I imagine having LoadLibrary(UUID assemblyID) would be much more flexible without the need to include library into every object that uses it
[04:02]	Sierra Janus:	Sounds good, follows a similar methology that is used sometimes by creating faux libraries via link messages
[04:02]	Babbage Linden:	(which starts looking a lot like a package)
[04:02]	Sierra Janus:	In terms of usability I mean
[04:02]	Babbage Linden:	sierra, right it's very similar
[04:03]	Babbage Linden:	except you don't need to do messaging
[04:03]	Mojito Sorbet:	"using ..."?
[04:03]	Sierra Janus:	Babbage: Yes, hence why I said in terms of usability :)
[04:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: Apparently Linden doesn't respect open source licenses, according to the TPV document. Apparently you have a legal theory by which you can ignore the creator's wishes and legal rights if they license their content with open licenses like GPL or Creative Commons.
[04:03]	Babbage Linden:	mojito the C
[04:03]	Babbage Linden:	# keyword
[04:03]	Babbage Linden:	morgaine, that is a conversation to have with our legal department
[04:03]	Babbage Linden:	i can't and won't comment
[04:04]	Chaley May:	will client side scripting be going the same was as another script item sold in a prim?
[04:04]	Mojito Sorbet:	Ohm, I was thinking something more like a mono library
[04:04]	Babbage Linden:	right, it's 4 past
[04:04]	Tillie Ariantho:	Are there legal OHs?
[04:04]	Sierra Janus:	Yeah, we need to have that conversation at some point though (regarding TPV)
[04:04]	Babbage Linden:	I'm going to get back to work
[04:04]	Babbage Linden:	thanks for coming everyone
[04:04]	Qie Niangao:	thanks Babbage
[04:04]	Babbage Linden:	and sorry I'm late
[04:04]	Cerdita Piek:	Thank you, Babbage. Take care.
[04:04]	Imaze Rhiano:	thanks babbie
[04:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	We should do it at the Linden Lawyer office hours :) Oh wait...
[04:04]	Chaley May:	bye Babbage
[04:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: we can't have a discussion with your legal department, they won't come out to play.
[04:04]	Becky Pippen:	Thanks, Babbage
[04:04]	Latif Khalifa:	thanks Babbage :)
[04:04]	Sierra Janus:	Exactly
[04:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Thank you babbage :)