User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2010 06 16

Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[03:03]	Nock Forager:	hello Babbage
[03:03]	Ardy Lay:	Zombie?
[03:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Babbage :-)
[03:04]	Latif Khalifa:	the undead cometh
[03:04]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Babbage
[03:04]	Latif Khalifa:	hello Babbage :)
[03:04]	pipinpa Allen:	haha, yeahh Babbage
[03:04]	Jonathan Yap:	Good morning Babbage
[03:04]	Nock Forager:	zombie?
[03:04]	Babbage Linden:	hi everyone
[03:04]	Stickman Ingmann:	You look a little under the weather, Babbage.
[03:04]	Moy Loon:	Hey!
[03:04]	Imaze Rhiano:	hi babbie
[03:04]	Tillie Ariantho:	Hello. :)
[03:04]	Ju Roussel:	Greetings Babbage, thank you for tweeting it :)
[03:06]	Babbage Linden:	let's give people a few more minutes to arrive
[03:06]	Babbage Linden:	i only tweeted a few minutes ago
[03:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Time enough to make tea
[03:07]	pipinpa Allen:	i read your tweet :DD
[03:07]	MasterPoppy Amat:	me too:) (hi all)
[03:09]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Irie
[03:09]	Irie Linden:	Hello :)
[03:10]	Babbage Linden:	hi irie
[03:10]	pipinpa Allen:	hi Irie
[03:10]	MasterPoppy Amat:	hi.
[03:10]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Aimee
[03:10]	Latif Khalifa:	hey Aimee :)
[03:11]	Babbage Linden:	ok, it's 10 past, let's get started
[03:11]	Aimee Linden:	✄ ✄ ✂lo
[03:11]	Aimee Linden:	oops
[03:11]	Babbage Linden:	first of all, sorry for missing last week's office hours
[03:11]	Babbage Linden:	we were in a meeting in the brighton lab finding out about the re-structuring
[03:12]	Babbage Linden:	as you've probably seen on the linden blog, that restructuring includes consolidating software development in the us
[03:13]	Babbage Linden:	which means linden is currently considering shutting down the brighton lab
[03:13]	Babbage Linden:	we are currently in a 30 day consultation period
[03:13]	Babbage Linden:	at the end of which, linden will make their decision
[03:14]	Babbage Linden:	as m has already announced the consolidation of engineering in the us, I am expecting that decision to be to close the brighton lab
[03:14]	Imaze Rhiano:	:(
[03:15]	Babbage Linden:	in the meantime, we are continuing the development of c# pending that decision
[03:15]	Babbage Linden:	and we're making good progress
[03:15]	Babbage Linden:	we have the documentation nearly complete
[03:16]	Babbage Linden:	and intend to release that at the end of the month as planned
[03:16]	Babbage Linden:	i hope you will look at the proposed api and give us your feedback on it
[03:17]	Babbage Linden:	after that we will be working towards a public beta which should happen around the end of next month
[03:18]	Babbage Linden:	it's unlikely to be complete, but should be usable and will enable you to try C# scripting and give us your feedback
[03:18]	Jonathan Yap:	Will this project carry on even if your office is closed?
[03:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Very cool Babbage. Must be hard to remain focussed on it, in the circumstances.
[03:18]	Babbage Linden:	that is unclear
[03:19]	Babbage Linden:	there was no guarantee that the project would continue anyway
[03:19]	Babbage Linden:	the feedback from the beta will be very useful input
[03:19]	Babbage Linden:	and will help linden judge whether the project should continue
[03:20]	Babbage Linden:	if lots of positive feedback is received and the number of reported bugs is low, then it may be continued
[03:20]	Babbage Linden:	but if the feedback is mixed and there are lots of open bugs, then it's unlikely given that whether brighton is closed or not there are fewer engineers at linden
[03:21]	Babbage Linden:	in any case, all of the engineers would like to see the project reach some kind of conclusion
[03:21]	Babbage Linden:	and I'm very proud of them for that
[03:21]	Tillie Ariantho:	Isn't it even required for SL to make some progress at all?
[03:21]	Mojito Sorbet:	Was this an entirely Brighton project?
[03:21]	Babbage Linden:	engineers like to get things done
[03:21]	Latif Khalifa:	Falcon and other Linens say a lot of work in the future on the server depends on that project, especially the script api versioning
[03:21]	Babbage Linden:	we had project management support in SF
[03:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Management likes to get things undone.
[03:22]	Babbage Linden:	but unfortunately they have been let go too
[03:22]	Latif Khalifa:	Gisele?
[03:22]	Babbage Linden:	the only team member unaffected is kelly
[03:22]	Babbage Linden:	who is very keen to see the project completed
[03:22]	Babbage Linden:	we will be transitioning the work to kelly over the coming weeks
[03:23]	Babbage Linden:	and he will likely be triaging and working on bugs when we go to beta
[03:24]	Babbage Linden:	in addition we are hoping to reduce the risk of the project not getting to beta by making as much of the code as possible open source
[03:24]	Babbage Linden:	which will allow you all to help us if you have the time
[03:24]	Babbage Linden:	that discussion is currently happening within linden
[03:24]	Latif Khalifa:	sure
[03:24]	Babbage Linden:	and I'm very much hoping that we'll be able to release the code soon
[03:24]	Mojito Sorbet:	"as much as possible"??
[03:25]	Babbage Linden:	the code under discussion is the API definition code
[03:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's cool Babbage.
[03:26]	Babbage Linden:	if that was open source it would allow the creation of intellisense files for IDE support
[03:26]	Babbage Linden:	and unit testing frameworks for C# second life scripts
[03:26]	Latif Khalifa:	which linden is the most influential in making the descision about the project going forward? (ie where to loby :)
[03:26]	Babbage Linden:	it can also be mostly reverse engineered from the documentation we'll release anyway
[03:26]	Babbage Linden:	so that is a relatively easy decision
[03:27]	Babbage Linden:	the other software we're discussing is the UThreadInjector
[03:27]	Babbage Linden:	which is where most of the work needed to get C# in to beta needs to be done
[03:27]	Babbage Linden:	I know there is interest from the OpenSim community in being able to use that code
[03:28]	Babbage Linden:	to enable OpenSim regions to run 1000s of scripts in the same way that Second Life does
[03:28]	Babbage Linden:	so, we're hoping that if we open source it we will be able to get some help completing it
[03:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	That would be good
[03:28]	Mojito Sorbet:	Completing it in OpenSim, not SL
[03:28]	Babbage Linden:	which will allow us to get to beta on our new compressed time scale
[03:29]	Babbage Linden:	if OpenSim and SL both use the same UThreadInjector it would also make moving scripts between SL and OpenSim possible in the future
[03:29]	Latif Khalifa:	i'm sure if the code was released many devs would chip in and help get it into beta at that shortened timescale
[03:29]	Babbage Linden:	as they could have binary compatibility between the serialized scripts
[03:29]	Mojito Sorbet:	Impossible to test it, without the rest of the server code
[03:30]	Babbage Linden:	there's also interest from the wider .NET community in that technology
[03:30]	Babbage Linden:	so we may get help from elsewhere
[03:30]	Babbage Linden:	the UThreadInjector is an independent tool and so can be tested and developed without the rest of SL
[03:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Many departed Lindens are working on Opensim themselves, like Prospero and Infinity for example. Might you be interested in working on Opensim some day too, Babbage?
[03:31]	Papol Heron:	Hello sime
[03:31]	Papol Heron:	hi to all
[03:31]	Babbage Linden:	we currently have a test suite set up that processes the Mono mcs compiler tests
[03:31]	Babbage Linden:	currently the UThreadInjector is able to process 25% of the tests
[03:32]	Babbage Linden:	and it reports the opcode which caused the test to fail
[03:32]	Babbage Linden:	so its easy to see what needs to be done
[03:33]	Babbage Linden:	it's possible to imagine a situation where we go to beta supporting 90% of CIL opcodes
[03:33]	Babbage Linden:	and, if the UThreadInjector is open source
[03:33]	Babbage Linden:	you would be able to test a script in SL, see the injection failure, find out which opcode caused it and add support yourself
[03:34]	Babbage Linden:	so, making that technology open source gives us more options
[03:34]	Babbage Linden:	and that's the discussion that is happening at the moment
[03:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sounds good Babbage
[03:34]	Mojito Sorbet:	How can it be tested without the rest of the server?
[03:34]	Babbage Linden:	i hope to have the results of that discussion soon
[03:34]	Latif Khalifa:	hopefully make it work with gmcs too (.net 2.0) if it was opensource :)
[03:35]	Babbage Linden:	that's the hope latif
[03:35]	Babbage Linden:	we were planning to port the UThreadInjector from RAIL to Cecil
[03:35]	Babbage Linden:	to allow it to support .NET 2 assemblies
[03:35]	Babbage Linden:	if the tool is open source and used widely, it's likely that the community would do that port
[03:36]	Babbage Linden:	so, that's where we are at the moment
[03:36]	Babbage Linden:	completing the documentation
[03:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Could the open sourcing be blocked by corporate decision?
[03:36]	Babbage Linden:	finishing the XML descriptions of the SL profile
[03:37]	Babbage Linden:	extending the UThreadInjector to support more opcodes
[03:37]	Babbage Linden:	and talking about making it open source
[03:37]	Babbage Linden:	that decision needs to be made at an executive level
[03:37]	Latif Khalifa:	Babbage, glad to hear that you guys are still pressing ahead to get most done... and that not everything is bleak as it seemed last week
[03:37]	Babbage Linden:	and so I am talking to the executives about it currently
[03:38]	Babbage Linden:	it's pretty bleak
[03:38]	Babbage Linden:	but we're making the best of it
[03:38]	Babbage Linden:	and I'm very proud of the professionalism of the Brighton Lindens during this period
[03:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me nods
[03:39]	Latif Khalifa:	who are the executives in charge, would any effort on our part to try to convince them be of any use?
[03:39]	Babbage Linden:	probably best if I pass on your support
[03:39]	Stickman Ingmann:	Hah
[03:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Good question, Latif. Who is the top of the Linden tech hierarchy?
[03:40]	Stickman Ingmann:	I've seen SLers "support" things, too. They get very passionate. :)
[03:40]	Latif Khalifa:	OK, that's one way of doinf it
[03:40]	Latif Khalifa:	hehe, true stick
[03:40]	Babbage Linden:	out of interest, how many people would be in a position to help out on an open source C# project?
[03:40]	Latif Khalifa:	i would
[03:40]	Imaze Rhiano:	I would
[03:40]	Stickman Ingmann:	I'm afraid I haven't the skill.
[03:41]	Trash Genesis:	same
[03:41]	Babbage Linden:	it would be a good way of learning C# ready for scripting SL ;-)
[03:41]	Moy Loon:	I guess I'll have to learn me some C# then!
[03:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm not a C# expert, but I'll certainly take a good hard look at it.
[03:41]	Latif Khalifa:	could probably get some other libomv guys to participate too ;)
[03:41]	Tillie Ariantho:	Just got this C# 4.0 book. ;)
[03:41]	MasterPoppy Amat:	I'm willing ti learn C# in SL too:)
[03:41]	pipinpa Allen:	i wanna say "Hello world" on C# in SL :)
[03:42]	Papol Heron:	lol
[03:42]	Jonathan Yap:	The version you're developing is C# V1.0 right?
[03:42]	Ju Roussel:	Yeah, ordered the book phase :)
[03:42]	Babbage Linden:	currently the UThreadInjector is written in C#1 and supports .NET 1 assemblies
[03:43]	Tillie Ariantho:	http://www.lovemachineinc.com/2010/03/fearless-leaders/ M should send around this questionaire, too. :P
[03:43]	Imaze Rhiano:	For UThreadInjector there is very likely interest outside SL - C# scripts sounds fun
[03:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's only takes a few days to become proficient in C# 1.0, nothing too clever in it ;-)
[03:43]	Imaze Rhiano:	If you know Java - you pretty much know C# already
[03:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep, roughly.
[03:44]	Ju Roussel:	(not if your only experience so far is LSL, Morgaine, lol)
[03:44]	Opensource Obscure:	Ju+
[03:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ju: if your only experience is LSL, you're not a developer ^_^
[03:44]	Opensource Obscure:	??
[03:44]	Tillie Ariantho:	.D
[03:44]	Babbage Linden:	ok, so several people might be able to help out, that's great to know
[03:45]	Latif Khalifa:	Babbage, what communiation channel would you use to let us know of the developments
[03:45]	Imaze Rhiano:	I guess we can recruit some folks also from Open SIM to help out - if licence is not going to be too probhiting
[03:45]	Mojito Sorbet:	What about the library assembllies?
[03:46]	Babbage Linden:	so, anyone have anything else they want to talk about today?
[03:46]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, if you manage to convince them try using Apahe2 license like some other LL openrource (pyogp) or MIT (llsd) :)
[03:46]	Imaze Rhiano:	Hate to ask this: but what about mono rezzing bug, memory limits and possibility to allocate memory in mono scripts?
[03:46]	Mal Pinden:	Some people are so rude
[03:46]	Babbage Linden:	(i'm going to suggest that feature requests are probably not that useful at this point)
[03:46]	Mojito Sorbet:	So what about the script-limit project?
[03:46]	Latif Khalifa:	status of the limits project(s(=
[03:47]	Babbage Linden:	script limits is going to transition to the land team in SF
[03:47]	Babbage Linden:	there is still some work to be done there
[03:47]	Latif Khalifa:	don't waste your time it :)
[03:47]	Opensource Obscure:	mono rezzing bug is a hot topic indeed
[03:48]	Skills ModularSystems:	and mono update in late summer still stands?
[03:48]	Babbage Linden:	the mono rezzing bug is likely addressed in the C# beta codebase
[03:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: Zero released some Linden code (various implementations of LLSD) under MIT/BSD license a few days before the layoffs announcement, so that precedent may help you.
[03:48]	Latif Khalifa:	pyogp is apache2 which is fine too
[03:48]	Babbage Linden:	that code will then either ship with C#
[03:49]	Babbage Linden:	or have to be extracted from the C# branch if C# doesn't continue
[03:49]	Babbage Linden:	which kelly will be able to do
[03:49]	Opensource Obscure:	in other words, it's not supposed to be solved 'soon' where 'soon' means less than 6 months. approx.... ?
[03:49]	Babbage Linden:	so the mono sim freeze issue and mono upgrade will likely happen whatever happens to C#
[03:50]	Babbage Linden:	but i don't expect the restructuring to result in a faster development time for those projects
[03:50]	Skills ModularSystems:	:|
[03:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[03:51]	Tillie Ariantho:	those freezes just NEED to get fixed...
[03:51]	Skills ModularSystems:	ya can't they just backport that bit
[03:52]	Skills ModularSystems:	when mono is up to date
[03:52]	Babbage Linden:	yes we can
[03:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Management has a different angle on what NEEDs to be done and what doesn;t.
[03:52]	Babbage Linden:	and I'm sure kelly and squire will discuss it
[03:52]	Skills ModularSystems:	:D
[03:52]	Latif Khalifa:	i'm still thinking on how to convince the linden execs how essential is to have c# project completed
[03:53]	Babbage Linden:	making amazing things in the beta is probably the best way
[03:53]	Babbage Linden:	/me looks at Moy
[03:53]	Maggie Darwin:	Sink me, I finally made it to a Babbage OH
[03:53]	Moy Loon:	:o
[03:53]	Babbage Linden:	;-)
[03:53]	Babbage Linden:	hi maggie
[03:53]	Babbage Linden:	welcome
[03:54]	Maggie Darwin:	'Morning. Up early to catch a plane here.
[03:54]	Babbage Linden:	oh yes, that was the final thing i wanted to mention
[03:54]	Babbage Linden:	kelly would like to start participating in the office hours
[03:54]	Opensource Obscure:	\o/
[03:54]	Liisa Runo:	yay
[03:54]	Maggie Darwin:	Excellent.
[03:54]	Babbage Linden:	as he may be taking over from me in running them
[03:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cool !!
[03:54]	Stickman Ingmann:	Would Kelly be changing the hours?
[03:54]	Jonathan Yap:	Does that mean a time change in when they are held?
[03:55]	Mojito Sorbet:	Probably at a different time
[03:55]	Babbage Linden:	so, we'll need to make the time later for him
[03:55]	Mojito Sorbet:	If Kelly is in SF
[03:55]	Stickman Ingmann:	I'm sure 4am would work fine.
[03:55]	Maggie Darwin:	It being 0355 there now. :-)
[03:55]	Babbage Linden:	my overlap time with SF has far fewer meetings in as of a week ago
[03:55]	Babbage Linden:	so, I'm going to suggest we move to 9AM on wednesday from next week
[03:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's cool Babbage
[03:56]	Babbage Linden:	I know that won't work for everyone, but I hope some of you will still be able to make it
[03:56]	Jonathan Yap:	Will you update the wiki OH entry so we will know for sure?
[03:56]	Latif Khalifa:	9am pst?
[03:56]	Babbage Linden:	latif, yes
[03:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm on US time, despite being in the UK, so that's great with me.
[03:56]	Babbage Linden:	hopefully it will also let some new residents turn up and lobby for features too ;-)
[03:57]	Latif Khalifa:	that's 5pm uk time, so it's fine
[03:57]	Babbage Linden:	(and unwittingly get volunteered for vapourware open source projects)
[03:57]	Latif Khalifa:	or 7? damn timezones
[03:57]	Babbage Linden:	its 5PM UK time
[03:57]	Latif Khalifa:	ah ok
[03:57]	Opensource Obscure:	i think 5pm in UK. 6pm in italy, fine for me.
[03:57]	Babbage Linden:	end of my day, rather than the start of it
[03:57]	Maggie Darwin:	No excuse for "unwittingly". Eyes wide open.
[03:57]	Opensource Obscure:	:D
[03:58]	pipinpa Allen:	0:00am in Japan?
[03:58]	Babbage Linden:	ok, good, 5PM/9AM next week it is
[03:58]	Babbage Linden:	hope to see you all there
[03:58]	Babbage Linden:	and if you can't make it at the new time, thank you so much for coming for the last few years ;-)
[03:58]	Ardy Lay:	Thanks Babbage
[03:59]	Maggie Darwin:	I wouln't have realized this was the right time but for the Twitter from Babbage.
[03:59]	Imaze Rhiano:	Thank you Babbage
[03:59]	Babbage Linden:	it really has been the most fun
[03:59]	Stickman Ingmann:	Thank you Babbage.
[03:59]	MasterPoppy Amat:	thack you babage:)
[03:59]	Opensource Obscure:	thanks Jim. can't wait to see your next experimentation with GuitarzPadsSoundEffects and robots
[03:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sure will, looking forward to "Kelly OH". :-)
[03:59]	windyy Lane:	thank you Babbage
[03:59]	MasterPoppy Amat:	thank*
[03:59]	Latif Khalifa:	thank you Babbage :)
[03:59]	pipinpa Allen:	sure :)
[03:59]	Simon Kline:	Thanks babbage! :D These have been the best Office hours i've been to in SL :) (when 've ben abl to make it! )
[03:59]	Maggie Darwin:	Thanks and the best of luck to you, sir..
[03:59]	Babbage Linden:	you're what make SL amazing, so keep at it!
[03:59]	Latif Khalifa:	high marks for not giving up on the project even under these circumstances :)
[03:59]	Skills ModularSystems:	Thanks Babbage and good luck :>
[03:59]	Logos Sohl:	actually i wouldnt have known except for twitter either, so is it still going to be wednesdays?
[04:00]	MasterPoppy Amat:	good luck:D
[04:00]	Jonathan Yap:	We should have a going away party
[04:00]	Babbage Linden:	/me goes to pimp Moy's latest masterpiece to the Lindens
[04:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Your office hours have been by far the most interesting technically, Babbage. I'm very grateful for that, it's made them worthwhile coming.
[04:00]	Maggie Darwin:	Dublin. Yesterday.
[04:00]	Skills ModularSystems:	oh which one?
[04:00]	Moy Loon:	eeeeaaaaaaaah!!! <:0
[04:00]	Babbage Linden:	yes, dublin was great
[04:00]	Moy Loon:	The old raycaster thing
[04:00]	Skills ModularSystems:	ah nice
[04:00]	Babbage Linden:	I'm sure there will be others
[04:01]	Imaze Rhiano:	THREE CHEERS FOR BABBAGE AND BRIGHTON LAB!!!
[04:01]	Jonathan Yap:	Hoooo!
[04:01]	Imaze Rhiano:	Hip Hip Hooray!!
[04:01]	Imaze Rhiano:	Hip Hip Hooray!!
[04:01]	Tillie Ariantho:	woohoo :D
[04:01]	pipinpa Allen:	yeahhhh
[04:01]	Maggie Darwin:	Hip hip Hooray!
[04:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Agreed on the cheers! :-)
[04:01]	Imaze Rhiano:	Hip Hip Hooray!!
[04:01]	Stickman Ingmann:	:D
[04:01]	Nock Forager:	ya! ;-)
[04:01]	Babbage Linden:	/me feels a warm glow
[04:01]	Babbage Linden:	ok, see you all next time
[04:01]	Maggie Darwin:	Be well.
[04:01]	Babbage Linden:	keep building cool stuff!
[04:01]	Latif Khalifa:	take care Babbage and good luck with the execs
[04:02]	Simon Kline:	Take care babbage! :D
[04:02]	Babbage Linden:	thanks
[04:02]	Skills ModularSystems:	cya!
[04:02]	pipinpa Allen:	see ya babbage
[04:02]	Imaze Rhiano:	Bye Babbie
[04:02]	MasterPoppy Amat:	(*'-')/☆
[04:02]	Moy Loon:	Take care Babbage
[04:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: and a good job all round from the team, in everything you've done, including presentations and community interaction.