User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-04-17

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[14:09]	Benjamin Linden:	well since Vectorform is here I think we can go ahead and get started
[14:09]	Pier Jaecies:	Great.
[14:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	yay :D
[14:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	cool just in time
[14:09]	Aimee Trescothick:	might need to repeat some in an hour though lol
[14:09]	Benjamin Linden:	many of my best regulars are here anyway :-)
[14:09]	McCabe Maxsted is blushing :P
[14:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	McCabe looks like he must have been building something ;D
[14:09]	Benjamin Linden:	Stephany Linden is in another meeting so she wont' be able to join us right away
[14:10]	Benjamin Linden:	Vectorform, I didn't even ask you guys if you want to do this in voice or in chat
[14:10]	Benjamin Linden:	we run my office hours generally in text
[14:10]	Aimee Trescothick:	looks like he's been tunnelling with the moles lol
[14:10]	Benjamin Linden:	for transcripts
[14:10]	Kippie Friedkin:	Text is fine. Easier than transcribing later :)
[14:10]	Benjamin Linden:	and because not everyone uses voice
[14:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	got a new build going! wanted to get in the spirit :)
[14:10]	Benjamin Linden:	ok sounds good
[14:11]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm assuming everyone here saw the announcement to sldev or you wouldn't be here :-)
[14:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe, yep
[14:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	yup
[14:11]	Benjamin Linden:	but I'll repeat for the sake of transparency
[14:11]	Benjamin Linden:	that we've asked Vectorform to help us build a few new features in the second life viewer
[14:11]	Benjamin Linden:	and they're here today to talk to you about the project and get your insights
[14:11]	Benjamin Linden:	so I'll just let them go around and introduce themselves
[14:12]	Mudflap Mighty:	Oooh, can I start?
[14:12]	Kippie Friedkin:	hehe...go ahead
[14:12]	Mudflap Mighty:	Hey everyone, I'm Mudflap. I'll be doing a lot of the technical work on the project.
[14:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hello :D
[14:13]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy mudflap :)
[14:13]	Benjamin Linden:	could we get a link to your intro page on the web too?
[14:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	http://www.vectorform.com/secondlife/
[14:13]	Mudflap Mighty:	I'm interested in hearing how you use landmarks today, how you want to use them in the future, and how we can help you navigate your world.
[14:13]	Benjamin Linden:	Mudflap I think your mic is live
[14:13]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks Jacek
[14:13]	Mudflap Mighty:	That's it
[14:13]	Mudflap Mighty:	Yup, got it hooked up to my T key
[14:13]	Mudflap Mighty:	Sorry
[14:14]	Kippie Friedkin:	Hello everyone. I'm Kippie. I'll be working with Vectorform on the project as the resident SL subject matter expert.
[14:15]	Kippie Friedkin:	I'm a scripter and builder and my RL company does a lot of work in SL. So I'll be working closely with you to discuss proposed enhancements and get feedback and insight! I'm excited to be working with everyone!
[14:15]	Jacek Antonelli:	Cool :) Hello there!
[14:15]	Kippie Friedkin waves
[14:15]	Aimee Trescothick:	:)
[14:15]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy :)
[14:16]	Pier Jaecies:	Hi everyone, I am the project manager and would like to give you an overview of the project
[14:17]	Pier Jaecies:	we have 3 main objectives
[14:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hello :)
[14:17]	Pier Jaecies:	1. • To understand, how landmarks are currently used.
[14:17]	Pier Jaecies:	2. • To understand what new features residents would like to see.
[14:17]	Pier Jaecies:	3/ • To understand what insights residents can lend to features such as history and back-forward options
[14:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	Heya Malbers :)
[14:18]	McCabe Maxsted:	w00t malbers!
[14:18]	Pier Jaecies:	So, I'd like to invite Kippie to begin our discussions
[14:18]	Malbers Linden:	Hi All.
[14:18]	Rynnan Riggles:	hi malbers
[14:20]	Kippie Friedkin:	The goal of this project is to improve the SL user experience relating to how users manage where they are in-world, go back to the places they have been, and how favorite places (landmarks) are stored and shared.
[14:21]	Kippie Friedkin:	This includes unifying Landmarks and User Picks, as well as integrating a location history, back and forward buttons in the Viewer, and new landmark management functionality.
[14:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	Neat :)
[14:21]	FoxSan Yosuke:	yeah :D
[14:21]	Kippie Friedkin:	This being the very early stages of this project, our first step is to work with residents to understand more about how landmarks are typically used.
[14:22]	Kippie Friedkin:	We'll be looking for feedback and ideas from new and experienced residents like yourselves in order to arrive at a solution that improve the user experience for the widest range of users possibe.
[14:23]	Kippie Friedkin:	So, where I'd like to start off today is just a free discussion on landmarks. As someone with a scary number of landmarks that desperately need organizing, I'd like to hear how you guys use landmarks.
[14:23]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[14:24]	Aimee Trescothick:	memory lol
[14:24]	Kippie Friedkin:	What prompts you to create one? How often do you create them? How do you manage them? etc
[14:25]	Benjamin Linden:	don't everyone start at once :-)
[14:25]	FoxSan Yosuke:	mu LM folder is a pretty big mess to be honest, but thats probably caused by making a quick landmark and forgetting about it until you need it and cant find it back anymore
[14:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	To create one? Usually either if it's someplace that I know I'll be coming back to (like this place here), or someplace that I think a friend would like (so I pass the LM along to them)
[14:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	Or if there's a really cool build or something
[14:25]	FoxSan Yosuke:	yush
[14:25]	Kippie Friedkin:	Do you ever rename your landmarks after you save them?
[14:26]	McCabe Maxsted:	heh. I hear you on the scary number. I have a 40k inv...
[14:26]	FoxSan Yosuke:	*coughs* never >.>
[14:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[14:26]	Dimitrio Lewis:	Yes, it's important to be able to associate the name properly, so I cut out any unneccessary description in the title
[14:26]	McCabe Maxsted:	I rename my landmarks to keywords so I can find them
[14:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sometimes I'll rename them, especially if I'm giving them to a friend, or if they have a reall obnoxious and long parcel name
[14:27]	Rynnan Riggles:	whenever I try to access a LM I have to think about when I took it in order to find it back. I do rename them, seldomly but I tend to forget what phrases I used to find them back later
[14:27]	Kevin Susenko:	I use landmarks pretty much the same way I use bookmarks in a web browser
[14:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	One time I can explicitly remember renaming a LM -- there was a cool statue of Cthulhu I came across, but the parcel name had nothing to do with that, so I added "cthulhu statue" at the end so I'd remember what was there
[14:27]	Mudflap Mighty:	Does folder organization help?t
[14:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	for example if someone asks me where to find a good male clothing store I'll search my inv for "men" since I've added the keyword to all the male clothing store LMs I have
[14:28]	Rynnan Riggles:	*nods at Jacek*
[14:28]	Dimitrio Lewis:	I have my landmarks organized into folders. Some of those, like "newbie friendly" I can drop the entire folder on someone.
[14:28]	Kippie Friedkin:	McCabe, so you're using a rudimentary tagging system when you rename your landmarks. Interesting.
[14:29]	FoxSan Yosuke:	what would be really awesome for somebody like me who is VERY lazy in organising, is a screen where you can Name it and Sort it under a subject -before- saving it.
[14:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	not really. The inventory is a total mess; most people don't even use filters because they're too clumsy
[14:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	I do some "tagging", so that I can type in the word into the search at the top of the inventory
[14:29]	Aimee Trescothick:	better ways of finding and eliminating duplicates would be good
[14:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	it all saves to teh same place, so you have to take time to create new folders, open a new window, sort the lms into the new window (we don't have a cut feature for some reason; don't ask me why)
[14:30]	Mudflap Mighty:	Hey FoxSan, do you feel that a dialog everytime you get a landmark would be too clumsy?
[14:30]	Dimitrio Lewis:	duplicates are a pain fersure, anything you buy inworld is likely to include a landmark back to the store
[14:30]	FoxSan Yosuke:	no, i'd love it! it would make it a lot easier for me since i "organise" it on the fly!
[14:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	same here
[14:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1157
[14:31]	Aimee Trescothick:	some way of finding multiple landmarks that are geographically close to each other would be good
[14:31]	Mudflap Mighty:	Ok. thanks. How about a way to automatically weed out duplicates
[14:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	Right now, when you make a landmark, it pops up and you can set the description.. same with snapshots. But you can't change the name without opening up inventory and finding it
[14:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	if you want to asign yourself to something hehe *hopeful eyes*
[14:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	(And descriptions aren't useful for finding things later :\)
[14:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah
[14:32]	FoxSan Yosuke:	weeding out dups can be tricky since you can make a LM on 23,100,45 and at 24,101,45 which is genreally the same spot
[14:32]	Kippie Friedkin:	If anyone is familiar with how the del.icio.us plugin for firefox works, whenver you create a bookmark, it opens a window where you can type a description and then tag the item you are bookmarking. That's almost how I envision such a pop-up
[14:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	could do it by UUID. I have a ton of dupe lms from the same place
[14:32]	Jacek Antonelli:	(Oh, actually, I notice that you can't even set the description in LM's now... you used to, back before they had the picture)
[14:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	from product boxes packaged with LMs, especially
[14:32]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, that's why I said about finding ones that are geographically close
[14:32]	Malbers Linden:	Yes, we talked extensively the other week about methods for removing duplicates in people's Inventory
[14:32]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah
[14:33]	Aimee Trescothick:	should be pretty easy to do by UUID for exact duplicates
[14:33]	FoxSan Yosuke:	but no UUID is the same >.>
[14:33]	McCabe Maxsted:	you'd have two filters, one for name, one for uuid. But that's kinda off topic
[14:33]	Aimee Trescothick:	they will be for all the ones that you receive with clothes and stuff Fox
[14:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes and no, FoxSan. They actually have two UUIDs... one that unique for each inventory item. And then one that's the "asset" UUID
[14:34]	FoxSan Yosuke:	ah okay, i didn't know that :D
[14:34]	Mudflap Mighty:	McCabe, it's not necessarily off topic if it helps you use Ls
[14:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	well, LL doesn't implement new features that are stop-gaps between larger features; if it's somethign that'll help in only one small area they'll just leave it til later until they can do it all at once
[14:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	yeah... ~_~
[14:35]	McCabe Maxsted:	frustrating for users, but I don't think they'll get dupe searching through unless it's for everything
[14:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah
[14:35]	Mudflap Mighty:	k
[14:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	geographical close landmarks are a slightly different thing though
[14:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	but a lot more difficult :)
[14:36]	FoxSan Yosuke:	Another usefull thing maybe: the AGE of an LM. Since everything changes so fast in SL chances are that a LM is outdated in a month. So when you can see how old a LM is, you can sort them by date too and maybe delete the oldest
[14:36]	Mudflap Mighty:	Anybody know roughly how many steps between locations? e.g from 200 to 201 in any direction?
[14:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	yes, tagging them with last visited time would be useful
[14:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	yes. And the last time you visited there, if at all
[14:36]	Kippie Friedkin:	I agree. Going through old landmarks and teleporting to empty places can be a pain.
[14:37]	McCabe Maxsted:	to be able to sort lms by various means, last time visited, name, sim they're in would be a really nice ability to have
[14:37]	Malbers Linden:	Ooo -- age of LM. Nice ideas there!
[14:37]	FoxSan Yosuke:	Mubflap: about two xD
[14:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	Steps between locations, Mudflap? *doesn't follow*
[14:37]	FoxSan Yosuke:	how many steps for a meter i guess
[14:37]	Aimee Trescothick:	ah right
[14:38]	Mudflap Mighty:	Yeah, if I'm walking and I'm at 200,200,56. How many in world steps does it take to get to 201,200,56?
[14:38]	FoxSan Yosuke:	which is about two :3
[14:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	ohhhh
[14:38]	Aimee Trescothick:	depends on your AO lol
[14:38]	FoxSan Yosuke:	that too, yeah xD
[14:38]	Kippie Friedkin:	true
[14:38]	Jacek Antonelli:	yeah, two or three steps... and yeah, depends how fast your avi seems to walk, hehe
[14:38]	Aimee Trescothick:	how many key taps lol
[14:38]	Mudflap Mighty:	Ok. from thins information, we can probably investigate sorting landmarks by geographic distance.
[14:38]	FoxSan Yosuke:	one keytap for me is two steps x3
[14:39]	Aimee Trescothick:	(as long as you're not in RC then you'll end up running)
[14:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	"A-one.... a-two... a-three... *CRUNCH* Three steps to get to the center of a Toostie roll LM"
[14:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	it would be nice to be able to convert our landmarks into slurls that we can give to friends who aren't inworld
[14:39]	FoxSan Yosuke:	lol
[14:39]	Aimee Trescothick:	land is divided up in 4m squares
[14:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehehe
[14:39]	Mudflap Mighty:	lol
[14:39]	Dimitrio Lewis:	do landmarks download parcel info, or is it all saved when you create the lm?
[14:39]	Kippie Friedkin:	McCabe, like a copy slurl function, so it can be pasted in an email?
[14:39]	Rynnan Riggles:	good question
[14:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, yeah, good idea McCabe/Kippie
[14:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	yup, exactly. Like nicholaz introduced to the map, but when opening LMs from your inv. Right click, copy SLURL
[14:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe right click, copy SLURL
[14:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	*nodnod*
[14:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[14:40]	Kippie Friedkin:	That's a great idea. Would be very useful.
[14:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	(Your construction hat can't stop my psychic rays!)
[14:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	XD
[14:40]	Mudflap Mighty:	So, what do you do if LMs are disabled on a parcel? How do you keep track of it?
[14:41]	Rynnan Riggles:	I move aside until I can find a place where I can take one
[14:41]	FoxSan Yosuke:	i sometimes make a note of it, or disregard it. no lm no visit xD
[14:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	you don't, unless someone gives you an LM for it. Or you create an slurl yourself and keep it in a notecard
[14:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm... in my experience, that doesn't come up much
[14:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, it's really rare
[14:41]	Aimee Trescothick:	hack the client to MAKE them let me make an LM
[14:41]	Aimee Trescothick:	lol
[14:41]	Dimitrio Lewis:	:)
[14:42]	Rynnan Riggles:	thinking about it, I wanted to be able to create the LM mysself once
[14:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, marking a parcel as no-LM is kinda rude. Almost as bad as banlines. *shakes fist*
[14:42]	FoxSan Yosuke:	lol
[14:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	mostly for people hiding in skyboxes and the like
[14:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	grr, banlines! my bane!
[14:42]	Kippie Friedkin:	lol
[14:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	it's useful for gaming sims to prevent it
[14:42]	Pier Jaecies:	lol
[14:42]	Rynnan Riggles:	jacek, very true
[14:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	But supposing there _was_ someplace that I wanted to come back to, but didn't let me make an LM... yeah, probably record the location or SLURL in a notecard. Or maybe blog the SLURL
[14:42]	Kippie Friedkin:	Another thing I'd like to inject into our discussion are User Picks. Do you use them? How often? etc.
[14:43]	Aimee Trescothick:	stop people making a landmark at the centre of the maze, that sort of thing
[14:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah, true Aimee
[14:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	everyone uses them; if you don't, you're weird
[14:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[14:43]	Kippie Friedkin:	LOL
[14:43]	FoxSan Yosuke hardly ever uses picks
[14:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	Weirdo ;D
[14:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	weirdo ;)
[14:43]	Kippie Friedkin:	lol
[14:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	!
[14:43]	FoxSan Yosuke:	xD
[14:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	gah! psychic rays!
[14:43]	Dimitrio Lewis:	my main reason for using picks is to visit the store of someone who created something cool I've found inworld
[14:43]	Kippie Friedkin:	Why don't you use them, FoxSan?
[14:43]	Aimee Trescothick:	I think the RP sims use it a lot to stop people randomly tping in and breaking immersion
[14:44]	Rynnan Riggles:	well if there is a reason to prevent a user from taking a landmark to a specific place in a sim (say for agiming reasons) it could always be redirected to a common starting point.
[14:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	I use LMs for my favorite places... that I want other people to know about. *ahem* >_>
[14:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	if you're a shopkeeper you keep a classified and your first pick is info about your shop for customers, either location or important info so you don't get bothered by stupid questions. The rest of the pics are either people putting up their favorite locations in sl, or using their pics to display their friends like a "top 8" type of deal
[14:44]	Aimee Trescothick:	most people seem to use picks to make notes of their friends rather than anything geographically related
[14:44]	Jacek Antonelli:	err I use Picks, I mean
[14:44]	FoxSan Yosuke:	Kippie: Most of the time Picks are used (just like i do) as an extention of your profile. And most of the picks contain useless commercial LM's in which i have no interest
[14:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	nobody uses picks to keep places they visit often but don't want to share
[14:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	And, yeah. If you have a store (like I do! Come buy my stuff, eh heh heh), it's traditional to make a Pick for it
[14:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	Also, lots of people make picks to say something nice and have a screenshot of their friends
[14:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	I keep funny quotes I hear in my picks
[14:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	as well as friends
[14:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	yes, also funny quotes
[14:46]	Rynnan Riggles:	I guess it#s ssafe to say that picks are not a major key to LM experience
[14:46]	Kippie Friedkin:	So McCabe, if you have user picks to keep funny quotes...does the landmark tied to it relate to the quote?
[14:46]	FoxSan Yosuke:	yush
[14:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	nope
[14:46]	Kippie Friedkin:	That's what I thought. I see that very often.
[14:46]	Dimitrio Lewis:	I think all of the picks in my profile are set to a welcome area, and the content unrelated
[14:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	I guess it would usually just be "wherever I was when I made this pick"
[14:46]	Kippie Friedkin:	Gotcha.
[14:47]	Rynnan Riggles:	*nods*
[14:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	it's just something we users have come up with due to profile limitations. Yup, exactly
[14:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	same with friends usually; just wherever I was
[14:47]	Aimee Trescothick:	more often than not the location of picks is No Parcel, (Unknown Region)
[14:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	(hopefully not somewhere too embarrassing)
[14:47]	Aimee Trescothick:	must got there some time, it seems popular
[14:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[14:47]	Kippie Friedkin:	hehe
[14:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe Aimee
[14:48]	Kippie Friedkin:	I'm curious if other use User PIcks for any other reasons.
[14:48]	Kippie Friedkin:	For example, I have friends who use Second LIfe mostly for exploration...to see cool places and things.
[14:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	some mentors use them to guide newbies. "check my picks for cool places" or 'check my picks to find help"
[14:48]	Kippie Friedkin:	Those people, "travelers" tend to use the picks as a travel guide. I'm wondering how common that is now.
[14:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	other than that I can't think of a use we haven't already discussed
[14:49]	Aimee Trescothick:	sadly it seems to be becoming less so
[14:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah. And some Lindens (like Torley) do that too... have a pick for a little "help file" on each topic
[14:49]	Kippie Friedkin:	So are User Picks useful at all?
[14:49]	Aimee Trescothick:	quite a few are memorials to memories of places that don't exist any more
[14:49]	Kippie Friedkin:	Their use seems to be rather diluted.
[14:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm... as location markers, they have their uses
[14:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	But yes, quite diluted
[14:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	ooh yes. I've seen memorials too
[14:50]	Dimitrio Lewis:	I'm sure some have cool places to visit in the profile. Another type of interest, if you're looking at the profile of a famous fashionista, you'd probably be very curious to visit any clothing stores that they use
[14:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, yes. I have a "memorial" of my old garden... *sniffles*
[14:50]	McCabe Maxsted nods. I do check people's picks whenever I view their profiles though. There's a good chance there will be some cool place I haven't visited yet
[14:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	people will put hteir favorite hangouts in their picks
[14:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yes, I check picks too
[14:51]	Rynnan Riggles:	I couldn't say anything as to their general helpfuless, but I do read people's profiles, and I do check out their picks. I also visit the places that they link to, but I might be a rare species.
[14:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	People's picks say a lot about them, I guess
[14:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	and the company they keep *ponders some wild profiles he's seen*
[14:51]	Kippie Friedkin:	Me too, that's why I'm really curious about how they are being used. I look at them as well.
[14:51]	Kippie Friedkin:	lol...McCabe, so true.
[14:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	So, Picks have uses... lots of uses, lol. Too many uses!
[14:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[14:52]	Kippie Friedkin:	So User PIcks are a way of sharing landmarks with others.
[14:52]	FoxSan Yosuke:	yes
[14:52]	Rynnan Riggles:	sometimes, yes
[14:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	They've been co-opted by the users into something new :D
[14:52]	Kippie Friedkin:	And we've touched on using SLURLS as well
[14:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe yup
[14:52]	Kippie Friedkin:	How else do you share your landmarks?
[14:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Drop them on another person from my inventory
[14:52]	Bjorn Nordlicht:	some people put them into notecards, like a travel guide
[14:52]	Dimitrio Lewis:	Picks can also be used to share second life related websites of course!
[14:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	yeah. I have notecards like "Great places to go sailing"
[14:53]	Rynnan Riggles:	which doesn't work always for some stupid reason :)
[14:53]	FoxSan Yosuke:	I sshare my best LM by putting them in a notecard, like bjorn said, as a travelguide
[14:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	that'll have a list of LMs to waterways
[14:53]	Aimee Trescothick:	more often than not I just remember the sim name and type it to people
[14:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	I package an LM in boxes of some items I sell or give them from my inv
[14:53]	Aimee Trescothick:	lol
[14:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	I would love to get them from NC's but that feature is missing currently (http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6092 nudge for votes)
[14:53]	Aimee Trescothick:	not the most pratical solution I'll admit
[14:54]	Kippie Friedkin:	So you are just copying and pasting info into notecards at teh moment, right?
[14:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	I must admit I am guilty of sneaking a LM into products I sell at my store -- but I put them in the object contents, so they won't pollute their inventory
[14:54]	FoxSan Yosuke:	*nods*
[14:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, I like it when people do that
[14:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Not so much copy and paste, but embedding the LM items into the notecards
[14:54]	Kippie Friedkin:	Gotcha.
[14:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	embedded lms in notecards can be tp'd to
[14:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	yeah
[14:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	but you have to go there and make your own lm to share it with others
[14:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	or copied to your inventory for later
[14:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	or is that only pictures?
[14:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	only pictures
[14:55]	McCabe Maxsted points to jira
[14:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	darn.
[14:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	vote vote vote
[14:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[14:55]	Kippie Friedkin:	hehe
[14:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	*votes 3 times*
[14:55]	Yuu Nakamichi smiles
[14:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	XD
[14:56]	Kippie Friedkin:	Thanks, FoxSan.
[14:56]	Aimee Trescothick:	up to 3 votes and counting
[14:56]	Kippie Friedkin:	So creating notecards for groups of landmarks must be rather time-consuming?
[14:56]	FoxSan Yosuke:	yw, a small example of adding pictures and lm's to a notecard ^^
[14:56]	FoxSan Yosuke:	yes it is o.o
[14:56]	McCabe Maxsted nods. We also can't send more than one inventory item to each other at a time
[14:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	again, don't ask me why
[14:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	so if I want to give someone two or three lm's that's three inv transfers
[14:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh yes. And especially over group notices
[14:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	ooh good call!
[14:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	I get a lot of lm's from group notices
[14:57]	Aimee Trescothick:	oh yeah definitely
[14:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	If you want do distribute multiple items via group notice, you gotta stuff them in a notecard
[14:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	or into an object
[14:57]	Dimitrio Lewis:	The last time I created a notecard of landmarks, it took me a great deal of time to rename them to something more aesthetic.
[14:57]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Squirrel
[14:57]	Rynnan Riggles:	which makes accessing them additionaly complicated
[14:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy squirrel!
[14:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah... and you can't rename them once they're in the notecard :(
[14:58]	Squirrel Wood:	Yellow!
[14:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, blah
[14:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi Squirrel :)
[14:58]	Benjamin Linden:	I messed up the office hours time on the sldev announcement so we got started a little early today
[14:58]	Benjamin Linden:	I told Kippie ya'll can keep going if you want though
[14:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	yay :D
[14:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	w00t
[14:58]	Kippie Friedkin:	:)
[14:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	we've only covered half the ground!
[14:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[14:58]	Benjamin Linden:	then by all means, keep on!
[14:59]	Kippie Friedkin:	Great!
[14:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Going back to Picks... I had an idea before of expanding it, so it's not just about locations. Have a way to actually link to an avatar, and instead of "Teleport" it could have a button for "Open Profile"
[14:59]	Yuu Nakamichi:	what if there was a preference setting for how lm names should appear when you make them?
[15:00]	Yuu Nakamichi:	as in, what info you actually want to have, rather than location, region and xyz?
[15:00]	Dimitrio Lewis:	like a way to specify the % naming format?
[15:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	that might be neat, Yuu
[15:00]	Kippie Friedkin:	Good idea.
[15:00]	Yuu Nakamichi:	i notice that I always want to change them right away :)
[15:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	that would be really cool
[15:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah. A way to edit them right away is a must
[15:01]	Yuu Nakamichi:	sorry jacek I cut into your point..
[15:01]	Squirrel Wood:	"That place where you can find them cool shooz" versus "Blah Yada Store, XYZ Sim, 1.00, 2.21, 3.45"
[15:01]	Kippie Friedkin:	For those who have just arrived in the last few minutes, we are talking about a new project to better the SL user experience by helping residents manage their landmarks, and integrating features like a location history and back and forward buttons.
[15:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	make the picks have a generalised attachment rater than just a landmark?
[15:02]	Kippie Friedkin:	At the moment, we're talking about how we currently use Landmarks and User PIcks
[15:02]	Yuu Nakamichi:	but great, do we have a feature request for that on the jira?
[15:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	cold be a landmark, person, orbject
[15:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	*object, not just spheres
[15:02]	Dimitrio Lewis:	Aimee, like the way you can attach inventory to group notices?
[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	That is an awesome idea, Aimee
[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	Then you could distribute freebies too :D
[15:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	would be useful for stores doing freebies in the pick
[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli:	\o/
[15:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	that would be really cool
[15:02]	Squirrel Wood:	Heh. I find I keep collecting landmarks but hardly ever use them...
[15:02]	Jacek Antonelli has teh psychic powers
[15:02]	Dimitrio Lewis:	I like that idea!
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	could put a ton of useful things there
[15:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	did this meetin start an hour ago? heavvy sigh
[15:03]	Kippie Friedkin:	Squirrel. So what do you use instead of landmarks?
[15:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	people would look for freebies in the picks, as an incentive to view them
[15:03]	Squirrel Wood:	direct teleport, map stalking, known malls.
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted throws bruce campbel movies at sai so he quits whining
[15:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sai: It did due to a scheduling mishap, but we're going to keep on going :)
[15:03]	Kippie Friedkin:	Gotcha.
[15:03]	Dimitrio Lewis:	being able to attach a notecard to a Pick would allow people to specify even more reasons why you shouldn't IM them :)
[15:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	it's ok, we'll now do the last hour backwards so no one misses anything Sai
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehehe
[15:04]	Kippie Friedkin:	hehe
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol Dimitrio
[15:04]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood:	Shhshshtshtstst Not now son. I'm making
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood:	TOAST!
[15:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Phillip K Dick did a story about that I think
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry Sai, it was my fault
[15:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	more picks is also a popular request I hear
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	I accidentally told Stephany my office hours were at 2pm
[15:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah, so I'm only mildy confused
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	we will post transcripts
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood:	I love the little tacos... I love them gewd. :]
[15:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Quick question is thais about eyecandy or refactoring or both?
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	Kippie, do you want to do a quick recap for the new guests
[15:05]	Kippie Friedkin:	Sure, I'd be happy to!
[15:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, picks list a scrollable list like when people have lots of classified in there
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	refactoring, as I understand it
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood:	Its about improving the experience
[15:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	oooh...
[15:06]	Aimee Trescothick:	might be limited for reasons of database load though?
[15:06]	Saijanai Kuhn:	from scratch or at a higher level?
[15:06]	Yuu Nakamichi:	Hi sai :)
[15:06]	Kippie Friedkin:	Hello everyone, my name is Kippie and I'm here today to talk about a new project we're beginning with the following goals:
[15:06]	Saijanai Kuhn:	IE, would we get hierachial lists not bound ot inventory types sending updates to the server?
[15:06]	Gellan Glenelg:	a way to order your picks (move up/move down buttons?) without having to number them, would be good
[15:06]	Kippie Friedkin:	1. IMprove the Second Life user experience relating to how users know where they are in-world, return to places they have been, and store and share favorite places.
[15:07]	Kippie Friedkin:	2. Look for ways to unify the Landmarks and User Picks systems.
[15:07]	Jacek Antonelli:	(hehe, let's let Kippie finish, then bombard her some more :D)
[15:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah, OK very high level
[15:07]	Kippie Friedkin:	3. Introduce a location history to the Viewer
[15:07]	Kippie Friedkin:	4, Integrate back and forward buttons to the Viewer
[15:07]	prototypica.elemental.white.headsphere AVENTITY EDIT 2: hudReceiver entered state.
[15:07]	Kippie Friedkin:	Since we had an early start, we've been talking about how we currently use landmarks and user picks
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	should we talk about tp history now? I would like to mention before we do that I'd really love an easy means of traveling to four or five LMs, like alt-tabbing between windows
[15:08]	Saijanai Kuhn:	actually, this goes back to my complaint about folders
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	*between
[15:09]	Aimee Trescothick:	all at once? :D one limb in each?
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahaha
[15:09]	Pier Jaecies:	lol
[15:09]	Kippie Friedkin:	I think now is a great time to talk about history and moving between places you've been.
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	do not doubt my contortionist ways ;)
[15:09]	Kippie Friedkin:	One common complaint I hear is that if you don't set a landmark where you are, and then teleport somewhere new, it's hard to remember where you came from
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli:	yeah
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted nods
[15:10]	Kippie Friedkin:	So, just like a web browser, we're looking at the idea of storing a history of the places you have been in SL
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	or where you were two or three sims ago
[15:10]	Aimee Trescothick:	set alarms to auto teleport so you never miss work, that's one I want for RL, just have make sure I get out the shower in time
[15:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the info is obviously there. They have the SLURL posted to the chat window now
[15:10]	Kippie Friedkin:	Yep.
[15:10]	Rynnan Riggles:	which is a great help actually
[15:10]	Jacek Antonelli:	The SLURL is a start
[15:10]	Rynnan Riggles:	I use it very frequently
[15:11]	Dimitrio Lewis:	slurls differ from urls in that people generally memorize the name of the place rather than the sim and its coordinates
[15:11]	Kippie Friedkin:	Right, that's a good point.
[15:11]	Sabina Stenvaag:	i would hate toNOT have my ysti tol andmy TP history
[15:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	like I said, it goes back to the lackof support of non-inventory items in the folders
[15:11]	Sabina Stenvaag:	mysti tool*
[15:11]	Kippie Friedkin:	But if you were able to quickly view the last 5 or 10 places you have been, then you could just click to jump back there.
[15:12]	Sabina Stenvaag:	kippi--i can with the mysti tool
[15:12]	Kippie Friedkin:	What is the mysti tool, Sabina?
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	literally we already have a "home' button
[15:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ifyou could create a custom data item that would be named for teh sim's name, and contain the slurl and put it into its own hierarcial/folder window without any other issues like talking to the server
[15:12]	Kippie Friedkin:	Can you explain?
[15:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	you'd be done before you even held this meeting
[15:12]	And Eun:	I use the location info in the Chat window for tracking production work time. It would be great if I didn't have to manually extract this data.
[15:13]	Qie Niangao:	CHANGED_TELEPORT and CHANGED_REGION, like mystitool does it ... what more do we need? why in the viewer?
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	I think Mysti tool is a HUD attachment that keeps track of where you go... yeah
[15:13]	Jacek Antonelli:	scripted
[15:14]	Kippie Friedkin:	Does this tool keep track of where you've been according to just the region?
[15:14]	Sabina Stenvaag:	yes it's by region name
[15:14]	Sabina Stenvaag:	i cave yu the ser maual to
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick:	true Sai, personal landmarks wouldn't need to be server side
[15:15]	Aimee Trescothick:	unless you passed them to someone else
[15:15]	Kippie Friedkin:	In everone's opinion then, would a location history need to be any more granular then by region?
[15:15]	Kippie Friedkin:	Would you ever want to see it work at the parcel level?
[15:15]	Qie Niangao:	yes, it should, but that's all easy, Kippie...
[15:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the only thigs that need to be server side are things that exist on teh server already. ANy other data can be stored on teh client side EXCEPTTHE BLOODY GUI DOESN"T SPPORT THIS
[15:16]	Sabina Stenvaag:	that wold be ice--but i'm ot sure how useful
[15:16]	Saijanai Kuhn:	sorry for yelling but I've been screaming about the issue for 8 months now
[15:16]	Dimitrio Lewis:	I think parcel history is important
[15:16]	FoxSan Yosuke prefers a history on parcel level, not by region
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	Well, I'd want it to have the parcel name in it. So I can remember "XYZ Clothing Store" instead of "Some Sim Name"
[15:16]	Saijanai Kuhn takes a deep breoath
[15:16]	McCabe Maxsted:	webpages have titles; we should have both
[15:16]	Aimee Trescothick hands Sai the oxygen
[15:16]	Kippie Friedkin:	Right, that is what I'm getting at. If you visit a region with a collection of stores, it would be more useful to you if the parcel name was there too.
[15:17]	Sabina Stenvaag:	good point jacek
[15:17]	Kippie Friedkin:	However, this poses a new question? Would this make your location history too bloated?
[15:17]	Sabina Stenvaag:	yes
[15:17]	And Eun:	Is there anyway to annotate a landmark? If not, that would be useful, in the same way as Notes on profiles.
[15:17]	Saijanai Kuhn:	this is a trivial GUI issue that shouldn't nee d discussion. Just prototype a dzen interfaces with folders arranged as you liek in the window and let the users chose... Oh wait, no real folders. never mind.
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah. But I'm not sure if I'd want it to list _every_ parcel I visited....
[15:17]	Jacek Antonelli:	Like if I'm just passing through
[15:17]	Kippie Friedkin:	And, that is something that we are proposing in this new project. I really like that idea.
[15:17]	Dimitrio Lewis:	very true, Jacek
[15:18]	And Eun:	Why not an option to select which fields to collect?
[15:18]	Sabina Stenvaag:	can the parcle hx be in a lil hiearchy--like by region/then parcle?
[15:18]	Kippie Friedkin:	Right....so then we need to figure out how a location history is set.
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted:	and yeah, I hear you sai. The UI sometimes makes me just want to bang my head against things, but the lindens will do what they do
[15:18]	Kippie Friedkin:	Would it be set according to time spent within a parcel?
[15:18]	Gellan Glenelg:	are we suggesting a teleport history? or location history? If I walk across an "ad farm" do I get 25 new entries?
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	So maybe if you spent X minutes in a parcel. Or have a button to manually mark a place, in case you know you want it in history, but don't want to wait around
[15:18]	Kippie Friedkin:	So if you just passed through, it wouldn't store the location?
[15:18]	Kippie Friedkin:	Jacek...exactly.
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted:	and by things, I mean pointy rocks hehe
[15:18]	Qie Niangao:	I don't see what the problem is that's being solved here, that isn't just recording stuff already known to a script. just record parcel info and save it with each TP
[15:18]	McCabe Maxsted:	it's giving access to everyone easily
[15:19]	And Eun:	Again, you could set a threshhold on the user side
[15:19]	McCabe Maxsted:	it's like the need for a clientside ao: we have scripted options, but they're not optimal
[15:19]	Kippie Friedkin:	Qie: We're actually discussing a larger project that will result in changes to the GUI to make the use of landmarks and history/location more useful.
[15:19]	Qie Niangao:	ah, well... I would like Landmark semantics to be more accessible to scripts: specifically global coordinates
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, there's a whole new can of worms to go through, hehe
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Script interfaces and what data they can access
[15:20]	Kippie Friedkin:	Okay...my apologies for jumping around a bit..but this bring up a good point of discussion.
[15:20]	And Eun:	If each piece of information regarding a landmark were stored as a separate element, you could do a lot with that information easily
[15:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Kippie. The only issue is folders that can hold items that aren't inventory specific. Like a text file with a name and custom info embedded in the file
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	But, I think a TP history would be nice to have in the UI by default
[15:21]	Kippie Friedkin:	Let's talk for a few minutes about what data, specifically, we would like to have from a landmark.
[15:21]	Yuu Nakamichi:	what about tighter integration of the map and lms?
[15:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	here's another example of a "trivial" project that is made crazy by the GUI design of SL
[15:21]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sai: yes, you've said that's the only issue, but I think many people would argue that there are other issues ;)
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	you mean like creating an LM from the map? I thought that was too database intensive
[15:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I ran into exactly the same issue when making a keyword browser for the LSL editor
[15:21]	Dimitrio Lewis:	you mean, the ability to see your landmarks visually on the world map?
[15:21]	FoxSan Yosuke:	ooh, that would be neat O.o
[15:22]	Yuu Nakamichi:	yes.. I'm not usre Icare muchabout a picture on a floater
[15:22]	Yuu Nakamichi:	before I can open the map with it
[15:22]	Saijanai Kuhn:	all those issues are one-offs. The interface is all the user cares about. All the other info is already available as you pointed out, because the SL+URL is already available after each TP
[15:22]	Dimitrio Lewis:	it's kinda like the postcards map on the website
[15:23]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its merely a mater of grabbing the existing info and storing it in one convenient interface (or a dozen prototypes)
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted:	well we're also discussing what that interface should be
[15:23]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its only complicated because of the existing GUI.
[15:23]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the GUI should be tirvial.
[15:23]	Saijanai Kuhn:	but its not because its totally borked
[15:23]	Saijanai Kuhn:	speaking as someone who has already implemented a non-inventory heriarchy for the GUI
[15:24]	Aimee Trescothick:	Googlemaps world map within the interface with layers
[15:24]	Saijanai Kuhn:	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvEKiGSYm0k
[15:24]	Saijanai Kuhn:	if the GUI supported that interface in the video, you wouldn't be having this meeting
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sai: Yes, there are lots of concerns from a programmer side. But 99.9% of SL users are _not_ going to go mucking around the source code to improve their interface. So we're trying to find ways to make it more usable for them
[15:25]	Aimee Trescothick:	if the GUI supported flash I'd be able to see that video :D
[15:25]	Rynnan Riggles:	((hehe)
[15:26]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Jacek, if the interface supported normal folders, you'd have the ability to submit a dozen mockups after 2 hours work, and let LL or the end-users decide which they preferred
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	That's great, but not really the focus of the discussion today, Sai. Let's please focus
[15:27]	Kippie Friedkin:	So we are beginning to stray a little from our main discussion today.
[15:28]	Kippie Friedkin:	As I said earlier, we're beginning a new project to help improve the overall user experience regarding landmark management and location history. THis will involve UI improvements and changes. For example, we've already discussed the forward and back buttons
[15:28]	Yuu Nakamichi:	someone mentioned alt-tabbing between locations
[15:29]	Yuu Nakamichi:	I sort of like the idea
[15:29]	Sabina Stenvaag:	i've sad it before--i would like to look at someoens Picks and collect a Landmark to their pick
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	*nods* That would be nice
[15:29]	Kippie Friedkin:	But we're also talking about ways to create a better UI for management landmarks so they are easier to work with - whether that is folder based, tagged, etc.
[15:30]	Yuu Nakamichi:	I guess this would also touch on changes to the way tp's are being handled
[15:30]	Yuu Nakamichi:	in term so fthe viewer experience
[15:30]	Kippie Friedkin:	Yuu: How so?
[15:31]	FoxSan Yosuke:	I'd say keep the LM folder, once one has clicked on Create LM a screen opens with a field whereryou can adda short description and a list of categories. The categories match a list of folders in the LM folder.
[15:31]	Yuu Nakamichi:	if there was an alt-tab sort of way to get around, the tp experience would need to be altered
[15:31]	Jacek Antonelli:	That would be neat, FoxSan. Like a drop-down list that shows the "categories" (folders you've created), and you can file it for future reference right away
[15:31]	Yuu Nakamichi:	tp's are sort of one at a time processes right now - not meant to be super -spontaneous
[15:32]	Yuu Nakamichi:	like flipping between browser tabs for example
[15:32]	Saijanai Kuhn chuckles at the discussion of folders
[15:32]	And Eun:	What about a table approach to LMs that allowed you to not only view all of your landmarks in a list view but allowed the editing of non-key fields in bulk?
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, locations in SL are rather different than locations in a web browser, or files open in a text editor... you can only be one place in SL
[15:33]	Dimitrio Lewis:	could it be overwhelming for the average resident?
[15:33]	And Eun:	It is much too time consuming dealing with inventory items in general one at a time
[15:33]	Saijanai Kuhn wonders how many have attempted to add a new folder type to the GUI and succeded? The only one he has met is Dale Glass (Siajanai faled)
[15:33]	Qie Niangao:	overwhelming for the sims, too, if a lot more TPs
[15:34]	FoxSan Yosuke:	And: that would be a great idea to start with. FOr everybody to sort out their HUEG pile of LM's
[15:34]	Gellan Glenelg:	I don't think so Dimitrio. Is Creating a bookmark/favourite in web browser, renaming it/choosing a folder overwhelming?
[15:34]	And Eun:	RE: tabbed locations - I can barely Thanks, Fox
[15:34]	FoxSan Yosuke:	have you seen my bookmark folder? D:
[15:34]	Saijanai Kuhn:	is crating a new folder type int eh GUI overwhelming? YES
[15:34]	And Eun:	boy, that came out badly
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted:	if we do keep LM's/tp history in the inventory, can we please at least get custom tabs? I've been wanting custom tabs for my inv ever since I first joined SL
[15:35]	Saijanai Kuhn:	is creating a new data typeto be kept in standard folders overwhelming? YES!
[15:35]	And Eun:	I agree with McCabe: there has to be a different approach than just folders
[15:35]	Kippie Friedkin:	One idea that has been discussed is removing landmarks from the inventory and creating a new floater where they can be managed.
[15:36]	And Eun:	One idea I've been playing with (in my head , at least) is the concept of bins, like thoe used in video editing software
[15:36]	FoxSan Yosuke:	sounds like a good thing to try
[15:36]	Kippie Friedkin:	Maybe like a travel log where you could sort your landmarks in various ways. For example: viewing landmarks by the date they were created.
[15:36]	Dimitrio Lewis:	Selecting a category for folder placement when creating landmarks would be great... there's always going to be responsibility on the individual user to maintain their inventory and keep it organized though
[15:37]	And Eun:	Kippie, those are good ideas
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted:	the inv is prolly the worst part of the functional gui at this point, honestly
[15:38]	Kippie Friedkin:	Yes, it can be cumbersome. So this project presents a great opportunity to create a new UI for managing landmarks and considering how this new UI approach may be adopted for future UI improvements as well.
[15:39]	Jacek Antonelli:	:)
[15:39]	Kippie Friedkin:	Especially at this phase in the project, we're looking for your ideas and opinions.
[15:39]	Kippie Friedkin:	The goal is to make the improve the user experience of the Viewer for both new and veteran residents.
[15:40]	FoxSan Yosuke:	Kippie, why stop at organising landmarks and continue the same thing for textures? >.>
[15:40]	Qie Niangao:	yes, Fox...
[15:40]	Kippie Friedkin:	It's a great idea, Fox.
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe. Phase 2 :D
[15:40]	Qie Niangao:	every thing needs the same abilities... and that's why Sai is onto something
[15:40]	Kippie Friedkin:	But for this project, we want to keep focused on one area. :)
[15:40]	Rynnan Riggles:	texure organizing o.o
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted nods at qie
[15:40]	And Eun:	I would start with reworking the individual item approach first
[15:40]	FoxSan Yosuke:	i so desperately miss a preview pane and a good sorting method
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	Do it for LMs... refactor it and generalize the approach so you can apply it to other things. *nod nod*
[15:41]	Rynnan Riggles:	yes kippie, but if there are approaches that cover this area as well they shouldnt be dismissed as offtopic.
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'd like a floater, really. Two tabs, a tp history and a landmark store that can be sorted by various means. I'd like to be able to do some things with them that I can't before, and if t his can be generalized to improve the rest of the UI I'd love it even more
[15:42]	Kippie Friedkin:	What things would you like to be abl to do with the landmarks, McCabe?
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	I think it's already been said; right click, copy slurl, rename on creation, tag, sort by tag, date, time created, time last visited, name
[15:44]	Kippie Friedkin:	How about ways of sharing landmarks?
[15:45]	FoxSan Yosuke:	how about r-click > Send to...
[15:45]	Kippie Friedkin:	Let's follow the floater idea for management landmarks for a moment. What if you were able to designate a landmark as a favorite or "pick" from this floater and have it shared iwth other residents?
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'd love a right click and give to person, then open the person chooser
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	but that should be there for all inv
[15:45]	FoxSan Yosuke:	true
[15:45]	Yuu Nakamichi:	a check mark in friend list - share lm (in folder x) with this person?
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	It would be neat if you could drag a LM into your picks to make a new one
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	new pick
[15:46]	FoxSan Yosuke:	sharing folders... that sounds good O.o
[15:46]	Bjorn Nordlicht:	I was thinking that Jacek, and why stop with landmarks, anything should be able to share through profile
[15:46]	Qie Niangao:	(sharing folders really *does* sound good)
[15:46]	Kippie Friedkin:	What if you didn't even have to drag it, Jacek? If you had a floater landmark management UI, and could designate with a checkbox a user pick, you could potentially have it automatically display in your profile.
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	Deja vu :D
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'd like that
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	there's so few picks it prolly doesn't warrent a checkbox though
[15:47]	Aimee Trescothick:	how do you handle the comments bit of it then?
[15:47]	Bjorn Nordlicht:	drag and drop onto profile, or drag to "trashcan" icon to delete
[15:48]	Bjorn Nordlicht:	is fairly typical
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hrmm... yeah. I mean, it's quite rare that I create a landmark when I want it in my picks. I guess because I'd just make it in my picks, hehe
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'd assume it'd just create a blank pick linked to the lm
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	But if I've already got a LM (like from a friend), it would be nice to turn it into a pick without having to TP there and make a new pick manually
[15:48]	Kippie Friedkin:	Right, this method saves a step.
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	can we do popup text entry?
[15:49]	Malbers Linden:	Perhaps just an easier way to convert an LM to a Pick...?
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	turn it into a pic, window pops up asking you for the name and discription
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	*pick
[15:49]	Kippie Friedkin:	Do you ever think you might want to type a custom name and description for a regular landmark?
[15:49]	Kippie Friedkin:	Maybe notes about the place you went to that you might want to save for later?
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah. I'm not sure a whole button showing for every LM would be necessary, because of how infrequently I'd probably do it
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	oh lord. Notes needs to be entirely redone, it's so useless now. We need a universal notebook that we can always check, not one in each person's profile
[15:50]	Yuu Nakamichi nods
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick:	these things need to be searchable too
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, like the example I mentioned earlier, where I put a keyword in the LM name so I could find it later... would be great to have a searchable field
[15:50]	And Eun:	I keep my notes offline
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	yes, searchability is a must
[15:51]	Aimee Trescothick:	note in someones profile "useful contact re: project blah"
[15:51]	Aimee Trescothick:	completely useless at the moment
[15:51]	Aimee Trescothick:	as you'll never find it again
[15:51]	Kooky Jetaime:	yea
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	I keep all notes in my own profile :)
[15:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	Then I can always find them
[15:52]	And Eun:	This is why these elements should be accessible as data elements to us, not just in the individual cards and displays
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	I sometimes put a note about people, so if they IM me later I can remember who the heck they are :D
[15:52]	Ash Meersand:	I came here to talk about two objects being unable to be rezzed because the viewer says they're missing from the database.
[15:52]	Dimitrio Lewis:	profile notes tend to get erased easily currently
[15:52]	Ash Meersand:	They are from the library, so I suppose they're fairly noticeable.
[15:52]	Kippie Friedkin:	Again, let's remember that for the purposes of this project, we're focusing on landmarks and navigation.
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	it would be nice to have notes about LMs: instead of a description field a text entry area where we could enter info about each lm, then when we click on it in the floater it shows us the info; sort of like how the description field should have been
[15:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ash- wrong hours
[15:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ash - what objects?
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick:	link them to vCards and export them so you can associate them with the person's RW identity
[15:53]	Ash Meersand:	Oh, sorry.
[15:53]	Kippie Friedkin:	If the enhancements made work well for other areas, this project will help lay the foundation for those future changes.
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	For LMs -- I would _love_ a field where I can edit it, right when the new LM pops up on my screen, instead of having to go into the inventory and find it again
[15:53]	Ash Meersand:	Harajuku Female Simple Necklace and Nightclub Female beanie
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	this would definitely need to be accessible outside of clicking the lm, but it might help people who need reminders to implement it this way
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Name, description, maybe some other metadata would be nice
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	That I could fill out on the spot
[15:54]	Dimitrio Lewis:	The more data is collected the better, even parcel owner might be useful.
[15:54]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ash - Confirmed on the necklace, file a pjira issue, if one doesn't exist
[15:54]	And Eun:	A keywords option for LMs would be nice
[15:55]	Qie Niangao:	confirmed on beanie, too, Ash
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ash - Confirmed on the Beanie as well
[15:55]	Ash Meersand:	It said I can't file tickets because I have a basic account
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	yes yes, renaming and keywords so we can sort these things!
[15:55]	Ash Meersand:	Thanks for your help
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	As far as data associated with LMs, the two important things for me are: 1) finding it again later (by searching), and 2) remembering why I LMed it in the first place
[15:56]	Dimitrio Lewis:	Jacek, maybe a secondary description field? "I lm'd this place because they have awesome scenery" ?
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	Well, even the normal description field is fine for that, except it's a hassle to edit it. Same with the name
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	would we really need two? If they were implemented correctly one would suffice
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted nods. Exactly
[15:57]	Dimitrio Lewis:	Perhaps the normal description for the parcel you might not want to delete?
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	and we can't search descriptions
[15:57]	And Eun:	Fields to collect for landmarks: Name | Desc | SLURL | Region | Parcel | Last Visited | Keywords | Notes
[15:57]	Bjorn Nordlicht:	I agree, only one that is scrollable or something
[15:58]	Qie Niangao:	yes, again, a general benefit to being able to search *all* text descriptions
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	If I want to make a new LM and add a note or keyword to search for it later... I have to create it, then open up inventory and find it (God bless the recent items tab), then right click -> properties, and enter it there
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	firefox3 does this great thing with bookmarks now
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	you type something into the address bar and it searches both the title and the url
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	and depending on frequency of visits/relevance the list is ordered
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Cool, McCabe
[15:59]	Kippie Friedkin:	Okay everyone, I think we've approached the end of our session for today. I want to thank everyone for their input today. We're very excited to be working on this project and being able to work with residents to enhance the VIewer.
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for your input everyone
[15:59]	AKEYO_shoe_chuck RIGHT [script:chucks.core]: Script run-time error
[15:59]	AKEYO_shoe_chuck RIGHT [script:chucks.core]: Too Many Listens
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	if we had a searchable and easily editable description this would fit in nicely and make the whole system wonderfully cool to look at as well as useful
[15:59]	AKEYO_shoe_chuck LEFT [script:chucks.core]: Script run-time error
[15:59]	AKEYO_shoe_chuck LEFT [script:chucks.core]: Too Many Listens
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:59]	FoxSan Yosuke:	yw :)
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thanks for having us, Ben and Kippie and the rest :)
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	and thanks for doing such a great job driving the discussion, Kippie!
[15:59]	Kippie Friedkin:	If you have questions or ideas, please feel free to IM me any time.
[15:59]	Pier Jaecies:	Yes, Thanks Kippie~
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick:	:)
[15:59]	Kippie Friedkin:	No problem :)
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden have offered friendship to Kippie Friedkin
[15:59]	Rynnan Riggles:	:)
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care
[16:00]	Pier Jaecies:	Thanks to everyone for such great input!
[16:00]	Stephany Linden:	Bye everyone. Thanks for coming!
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks all! see you next week at the *correct* time -- 3pm :-)
[16:00]	FoxSan Yosuke:	byebyes :)
[16:00]	Aimee Trescothick:	bye
[16:00]	Malbers Linden:	Thanks for all your great ideas and feedback.