User:Blue Linden/Office Hour Transcripts/June 18th, 2008

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This is a good one, folks...some very productive conversation on one of my current, and perhaps favorite, projects. We were very lucky to have numerous guests in attendance who are well acquainted with the subject of intellectual property and the inworld experience. Content Creators, I love you.

Edited for clarity....which means running a spell check, threading, some chit chat reduction, and key questions in boldface. Please enjoy! -blue

[15:58] Aminom Marvin: hi Blue can you validate my parking please :{

[15:59] You: only for the first hour Aminom

[15:59] Aminom Marvin: ok <3

[15:59] You: hi guys, thanks for coming :)

[15:59] Saffia Widdershins: Hi!

[15:59] FlipperPA Peregrine: Good to see ya, amig0 :)

[16:01] You: okay autoreturn is off, feel free to rez furniture :)

[16:01] You: So, thanks again for coming...good to see old pals and new guests :D

[16:02] FlipperPA Peregrine: :)

[16:02] You: If I haven't already harassed you into showing up this week, I should let you know that we've got a real live TOPIC

[16:02] You: wewt

[16:02] Stroker Serpentine: I am sure recent events have spurred a fervor

[16:02] Hollyjean Allen gasps

[16:02] You: some of you might have noticed recent

[16:02] You: hehe yeah, sort of Stroker ;p

[16:02] Bino Arbuckle is oblivious as usual

[16:03] You: well Bino, if you check the blog you'll see there's mention of a mass blacklist of a creator's copybotted objects

[16:03] You: that unintentionally included legitimate content

[16:03] Bino Arbuckle: Weird I checked it... this morning

[16:03] You: but it brings up an issue we've talked about here at Blue's Hour before.....

[16:03] Aminom Marvin: Blue: just to double check, the _un_legitimate content as purposefully blacklisted, correct?

[16:04] You: right Aminom

[16:04] You: "Malicious Copybot Use" (Cory's term) as a ToS violation

[16:04] You: Copyright Protection and the best ways to go about helping people to identify trusted creators

[16:04] Aminom Marvin: ok. So, if someone files a DMCA against say, a particular file that a UUID references, than LL will take down the actual file instead of individual references?

[16:05] FlipperPA Peregrine: Speaking of which

[16:05] You: the use of copybot on IP you don't own.....often for griefing....has resulted in blacklist of copied objects, but takedown via Abuse Reports can be considered the inappropriate method of applying for takedown of content

[16:05] You: so in the future, takedowns will be specific to DMCA reports

[16:05] FlipperPA Peregrine: I just got an IM of a copyboy break out, ugh.

[16:05] You: copyboy, is that Son of Copybot?

[16:06] FlipperPA Peregrine: hahahahaha, perhaps :)

[16:06] You: eesh, it breeds!

[16:06] You: well....the topic i bring this week is a bit's related to those consumers who wound up with broken content

[16:06] Aminom Marvin: nah copyboy use makes MSpaint-like crude copies of textures.

[16:06] You: now....buying an object in good faith and having it blacklisted is really not a great consumer experience

[16:07] CheerGirl Allen: I agree

[16:07] You: but that consumer is an unwitting infringer of someone's copyright....

[16:07] You: it's not their fault, but technically, it's still infringement

[16:07] Gwen Carillon: yes

[16:07] Asriazh Frye: ^_^/

[16:07] Gwen Carillon: like confiscation of stolen goods

[16:07] You: so what I've talked about here, and have gotten great feedback from Flipper on, is the idea of a Creators Registry

[16:07] Lum Pfohl: caveat emptor, caveat venditor

[16:08] CheerGirl Allen: will the creators registry also cover clothing?

<Creators Registry will cover Creators not their individual objects - Blue>

[16:08] You: so I wanted to bring this up again....last time we did this I got a bit of negative feedback on the I'll present that first

[16:08] You: Creators were worried that people will ALWAYS prefer the cheap copy as, in SL, it's identical in quality

[16:08] You: but I'm proposing that the real value of this Registry is as a type of trust system

[16:09] You: consumers will know they are FAR less likely to have content they bought in good faith end up Blacklisted

[16:09] Doctor Gascoigne: I am registering all my prims

[16:09] Doctor Gascoigne: boxes

[16:09] Doctor Gascoigne: circles

[16:09] Blue Linden wants to be in the room when Doc's lawyer argues his ownership of "sphere"

[16:09] Doctor Gascoigne: trapezoid

[16:09] Doctor Gascoigne: parallelogram

[16:09] Toxic Menges: Blue, there is a growing trend of education amongst creators to let people know why this is wrong, however?

[16:09] Toxic Menges: So surely part of the registry is education ?

[16:09] You: Tox, I agree that needs to be another aspect of what LL does to help Creators protect copyright

[16:10] Gwen Carillon: Hey Del :)

[16:10] Delora Starbrook: hi guys, sorry I'm late, I was building and almost forgot. :)

[16:10] You: information campaigns like the "I'd rather go naked than wear stolen skin" campaign should be promoted by LL somehow

[16:10] You: on the website perhaps

[16:10] FlipperPA Peregrine: A lot of what I did with SLPTO was meant to be double-beneficial: first a place where you could register your items for future proof and trust, additionally, educating content creators on how to properly file a DMCA, how to file a registered copyright, etc.

[16:10] FlipperPA Peregrine: As for trust systems...

[16:10] FlipperPA Peregrine: I love how Paypal does it.

[16:10] Aminom Marvin: Blue: I think that would be very useful. Especially for content creators who buy scripts, sculpts, and textures from other creators to use in finished products.

[16:10] You: exactly Flip....we should also be looking to simplify and automate DMCA process....

[16:11] Gwen Carillon: Yes that's what CCA has been doing ...helping the process

[16:11] You: I know we require Fax currently, but should be able to come up with a legally acceptable webform

[16:11] Bino Arbuckle: Secure PDF?

[16:11] You: that's probably workable too Bino....

[16:11] FlipperPA Peregrine: To gain trust, you can verify your email; your bank account; your credit card; your home phone number; your address; your SSN... all to gain levels of trust.

[16:11] Aminom Marvin: Blue: Then in turn, the second-party creator will be able to say that the content they purchased for use in their product is trusted.

[16:11] Gwen Carillon: that would be awesome

[16:11] You: Right Aminom!

[16:11] Delora Starbrook: That would be beneficial to the content creation community as a whole.

[16:11] FlipperPA Peregrine: As to DMCA filing, I think it would help greatly to be able to fill out a form via web for what LL is looking for (IE: don't copy/paste chat logs, heh), that give you a page to print and sign. :)

[16:12] Saffia Widdershins nods

[16:12] FlipperPA Peregrine: Aminom: exactly, hehehehe.

[16:12] CheerGirl Allen: can Linden labs do anything to Prevent programs like GL interceptor from being used?

[16:12] FlipperPA Peregrine: CheerGirl: No, it isn't technically possible, because the graphics card needs to see the texture in it's memory to display on screen.

[16:12] Gwen Carillon: I doubt it Cheer,...not without affecting code

[16:13] Bino Arbuckle: It's possible LL could build into the SL client a detection that removes the GLE DLL... possibly

[16:14] Bino Arbuckle: But it would then be cat-mouse

[16:12] Toxic Menges: ebay also has the VERO system .. where approved users can do something akin to a dcma process - that is done via the web

[16:12] FlipperPA Peregrine: "I only used trusted content in my creations..."

[16:12] Doctor Gascoigne: I think we should revert to boxes and non prim hair

[16:12] Doctor Gascoigne: it will be fun I tell you

[16:12] Bino Arbuckle: I just bought hair like last week for the first time, damn :-)

[16:12] Aminom Marvin: Blue: would this trust process be for all of a certain trusted creator's work, or just for individual creations that are verified?

<it would be for creators who want to declare that they own the IP to all their work – blue>

[16:12] Stroker Serpentine: As long as this "database" doesn't turn into a popularity contest. Voting and reviews lead to gaming and abuse.

[16:13] You: True Stroker, the Registry shouldn't be seen as an endorsement by LL

[16:13] You: but merely as a Creators statement of authenticity

[16:13] Stroker Serpentine: Whatsoever

[16:13] Lum Pfohl: what recourse does one have - when they create an object or skin for their own use and never file - and a rip off occurs and that "copycat" files for IP. Later if the copy catter comes by and files DMCA against the original creator?

[16:12] You: so let me start with the negative feedback on the Registry idea....does anyone here think that the registry would function as a list of creators NOT to buy for, when all you are interested in is cheap copies

[16:13] Aminom Marvin: Blue: In my personal experience I have found that many users of SL will purposefully go out of their way to purchase genuine copies of content, even if they got it for _free_ from an invalid source

[16:13] FlipperPA Peregrine: Blue: I do to a very small extent. It would be much outweighed, however, by knowing you have the quality and name brand. Most people in the world prefer the brands to cheap knock offs.

[16:13] Amalia Broome: What about a third party/attorney type/ to do the registry leaving LL out of it?

[16:14] Stroker Serpentine: A portal for dissemination of information only

[16:14] Doctor Gascoigne: you are talking about increasing costs

[16:14] Doctor Gascoigne: which affects us all

[16:14] You: Flip, do you think that DMCA takedown breaking content you paid for is too little a deterrent to the bargain hunter?

[16:14] FlipperPA Peregrine: I think the levels of trust should definitely tie (in some fashion - in some percentage) to how much you are willing to tie your RL identity to your SL identity.

[16:14] Zai Lynch: @lum: maybe check for the creation date(?)

[16:14] FlipperPA Peregrine: Blue: I do feel for people who buy things unknowingly with "black market" content within...

[16:14] Amalia Broome: you could email it to yourself on the date you create it and save that..

[16:14] FlipperPA Peregrine: Don't forget, compared to the average SLer, we're all very DMCA-aware

[16:15] FlipperPA Peregrine: I bet if you poll the SL residents logged in right now, less than 10% would know what the DMCA is.

[16:15] Stroker Serpentine: There could also be a time in trade metric...that raises your 'Depend-o-meter"

[16:15] FlipperPA Peregrine: It isn't fair to punish them either. Tough questions.

[16:15] You: and yeah, i think we likely need to follow through on earlier discussions of adding meta-data to objects....but that's not foolproof solution by any means

[16:15] FlipperPA Peregrine: Stroker: agreed, then again, we're old and everyone knows us in RL :)

[16:15] Stroker Serpentine: Yes...but an alternative to RL info

[16:16] You: well Stroker, I've thought about that too....a rating system not unlike eBays....

[16:16] You: gold star for oldbies who'd successfully defended against all DMCA takedowns for example

[16:16] Stroker Serpentine: Or PayPal's "Verified"

[16:16] Gwen Carillon: honestly....protections and recourse need to be in place for creators that don't sell.

[16:16] You: *nods

[16:16] Asriazh Frye creates a million alts so the rating system will know how great she is :D

[16:16] Lum Pfohl: ah like the old rating system

[16:16] You: let me post what I'm proposing the prerequisite to participation in the registry would be

[16:17] You: and with a caveat that some of it is not possible'll see what I mean ;p

[16:17] You: * Payment info on file * Agreement to abide by terms of DMCA Counter Notice (check box) * Provide name, address, telephone number, email address * Agree to dispute resolution via 3rd party * Bond as 1/2 of 3rd party resolution fee (in L$)

[16:17] FlipperPA Peregrine: (1) You can not be a bacteria.

[16:17] Delora Starbrook: and in regards to 3rd party resolution fee...

[16:18] Delora Starbrook: It's going to make the 'little guy' hurt financially to have to put up money.

[16:18] Stroker Serpentine: (1) You must pay Delora Starbrook a nominal enrollment fee

[16:18] You: Now I think Payment info, name address and Agreement to abide by counter notice terms are a good deterrent to people gaming the system

[16:18] Stroker Serpentine ~Smiles~

[16:18] Delora Starbrook pokes Stroker. "No!"

[16:18] FlipperPA Peregrine: Blue: that sounds like a great start to me.

[16:18] CheerGirl Allen: does that not bring up your point about reluctancy of some to divulge RL identity for SL avatars

[16:18] You: well, that's true Cheer.....

[16:19] You: but you're supposed to do that when you make an account ;)

[16:19] You: and accounts CAN be held for fake info, technically

[16:19] FlipperPA Peregrine: Digital Millennium Copyright Act

[16:19] Stroker Serpentine: Agreed

[16:19] Toxic Menges: If that info only went to a 3rd party .. that would be a safeguard for them ?

[16:20] Stroker Serpentine: Also sponsorships and endowments could be funded to allow entry level creators an opportunity to participate

[16:20] Lizzie Gackt: can ll not bring in identification like passport name or so ?

[16:20] FlipperPA Peregrine: Stroker: I love that idea, heh. I want a protege!

[16:20] You: thing I wanted to point out was the idea of 3rd party dispute resolution

[16:21] You: which is common for systems like eBay

[16:21] Aminom Marvin: Stroker: good point. I can't say for the other fields of content creation, but at least in the sculpt community it is quite tightly knit, and a lot of the people know everyone else, including aspiring, talented newcomers

[16:21] You: the problem with 3rd party dispute resolution here is the cost

[16:21] Doctor Gascoigne: cost is always a consideration

[16:22] Doctor Gascoigne: for those who are not vendors do we want to bear the burden of verifying your IP it is your business no we do not

[16:22] You: if it costs 50-100 $US, that's a deterrent to people who's content inworld is going for micro-currency

[16:22] Lum Pfohl: Frivolous disputes may increase the costs

[16:22] Aminom Marvin: Blue: can you explain more about this resolution process? How it would work, and what processes would trigger it?

[16:22] You: so one of the things LL might need to think about to enable that would be allowing inworld dispute resolution by resident groups

[16:22] FlipperPA Peregrine: There does have to be a threshold, realistically, of how much money you are losing to make it worth while to dispute it - that's just a hard fact of life. :(

[16:23] You: well Aminom, if two people are claiming ownership of a copyright, then they could agree to abide by the decision of an inworld moderator

[16:23] Doctor Gascoigne: if you ask people across the board if they will take on added cost to help protect your IP and run your business they will say no

[16:23] You: who would likely demand proof of first ownership....Created by date for example

[16:23] FlipperPA Peregrine: Doctor: it is opt-in. I know Stroker and I would both say yes.

[16:23] Delora Starbrook: I also know I would say yes.

[16:23] Doctor Gascoigne: I think those who want this insurance need to register a database and pay for it using a service

[16:23] Aminom Marvin: Blue: ah ok.

[16:23] Doctor Gascoigne: like car insurance

[16:24] Gwen Carillon: ok at what point do we make this about protecting *all IP rights?

[16:24] FlipperPA Peregrine: Doctor: that's exactly what we're talking about.

[16:24] You: well Doc, last time we discussed the registry, most creators said they'd put down a bond of L$10000 on their ©

[16:24] RawMilk905 Kline: the whole issue to me is counterproductive

[16:24] Stroker Serpentine: I think that the vast majority of participants would be sincere creators. The few abusers would quickly be identified. Third Party arbitration would be minimal IMO.

[16:24] Dirk Talamasca: Me too but I agree that we have to facilitate the lil guy too

[16:24] You: so how much is too much when it comes to "putting your money where your mouth is"

[16:24] You: and I agree much is too much for a new creator who's not vested in the business yet

[16:24] Doctor Gascoigne: ok so if we decide we must facilitate him how much

[16:24] Aminom Marvin: Blue: would this trusted service be broadened beyond in-world entities? For example, non-SL companies and individuals?

[16:25] You: well, this would be inworld only Aminom....beyond SL, people need to protect their copyrights in court

[16:25] Doctor Gascoigne: how much do we all bear the burden for the small SL business owner

[16:25] CheerGirl Allen: to obtain a copyright it costs 45$us? alot of people are reluctant to pay that considering they do not make even 50$us a month on SL

[16:25] RawMilk905 Kline: it is ultimately selfish to be obsessed with authorship and profitability

[16:25] Gwen Carillon: or what if they aren't in business?

[16:25] Gwen Carillon: many creators are not

[16:25] Doctor Gascoigne: selfish to want to legislate where your money goes

[16:25] RawMilk905 Kline: rather than directing efforts toward improving the experience for all

[16:25] Doctor Gascoigne: how undemocratic

[16:26] FlipperPA Peregrine: We're talking about L$10,000 to have you avatar registered in the "trusted" database as a guaranteed payment against a case needed an arbitration, not a per item copyright, just to clarify.

[16:26] You: that's definitely a concern Gwen....we don't want the system to be out of reach to those who are not in business

[16:26] Aminom Marvin: Blue: for example, let's say that there is a vendor on Renderocity who has had her or his content imported into SL without permission. Could that vendor use this process?

<This proposal is specific to SL residents and not 3rd party sites or their members - blue>

[16:26] Doctor Gascoigne: its not my job to insure others businesses

[16:26] Doctor Gascoigne: only mine

[16:26] You: my initial thought was that the L$ Bond should be no more than half the cost of 3rd party dispute resolution

[16:26] You: with both respondents putting up the L$ to take it through the process

[16:26] Dirk Talamasca: I would say that there should be a way to join that allows you to pay in small increments until you are a member in full standing.. No diminishment in protection during that time.. Perhaps some other perk for members that pay the full cost up front

[16:26] Doctor Gascoigne: good idea Dirk

[16:26] FlipperPA Peregrine: I like that idea, Dirk. :)

[16:27] Saffia Widdershins: that's a good idea, Dirk

[16:27] Amalia Broome: like joining the Better Business Bureau?

[16:27] You: that is good :)

[16:27] Delora Starbrook: I could see that working, Dirk.

[16:27] You: Shh Amalia, that's a TM'd name ;)

[16:27] Delora Starbrook: Fair use!

[16:27] You: lol

[16:27] FlipperPA Peregrine: ;-)

[16:27] Amalia Broome: example...can be used!

[16:27] Saffia Widdershins: sore point here - but would Europeans have to pay VAT? Or would it be inworld managed?

<I have no idea how VAT works, but this proposal isn't a fee paid to LL, so perhaps not? That's something we'll have to ask the accountants about! - blue>

[16:27] Stroker Serpentine: The BBB depends on commented reviews. This would not.

[16:28] Hollyjean Allen: the Better business Chest of Drawers?

[16:28] You: lol Holly

[16:28] Doctor Gascoigne: now see to me thats responsible business practice

[16:28] You: is anyone completely against the idea of a L$ Bond as part of the Registry

[16:28] Doctor Gascoigne: you work out a way to bear the cost of business yourself

[16:28] Amalia Broome: no it's a perfect plan

[16:28] Doctor Gascoigne: and not make it everyone's responsibility

[16:28] Aminom Marvin: Blue: what happens if either party refuses to use this process?

[16:28] You: then they would go through the normal Linden resolution process

[16:28] Amalia Broome: would you require a business license?

[16:28] Gwen Carillon: good point Saff

[16:29] Delora Starbrook: I would like the L$ bond for the registry listing, though there has to be a way for the new startups and the ones not making much money to do it without choking at the price.

[16:29] RawMilk905 Kline: a fee do sell?

[16:29] Aminom Marvin: I doubt that content thieves are going to use it. Then aren't we back at square one?

[16:29] You: well, the registry isn't for the content thieves, in fact if they DO use it, then it would be easier for the IP owners to root them out ;p

[16:29] Doctor Gascoigne: in RL you have to have these modalities

[16:29] Doctor Gascoigne: licensure

[16:29] Doctor Gascoigne: insurance

[16:29] RawMilk905 Kline: fee to sell?

[16:29] Doctor Gascoigne: IP protection

[16:29] Doctor Gascoigne: why not in SL

[16:29] Doctor Gascoigne: your running a business

[16:29] Doctor Gascoigne: you should bear the costs of such and pass it on to your customers

[16:30] You: and hopefully asking for payment info on file alone is enough of a deterrent

[16:30] RawMilk905 Kline: the whole direction of a business is wrong

[16:30] Stroker Serpentine: It is important to mention that this is a proposed adjunct to the DMCA process. A way to streamline disputes and characterize responsible merchants.

[16:30] RawMilk905 Kline: it is innately selfish

[16:30] Doctor Gascoigne: it is not wrong it is truthful

[16:30] FlipperPA Peregrine: It is also a relatively cheap way of putting the one thing that real means something in SL - your reputation - on the line. And by doing so, you are in sending out a warning to thieves, DON'T TREAD ON ME. That's what I see as a major advantage for us all, and a deterrent to the ne'er do wells.

[16:30] You: well, let's stick to specifics Milk.....we're not arguing the benefit of commerce as a concept ;)

[16:30] Amalia Broome: Issue business licenses with a fee attached and verification for DCMA

[16:32] You: well Amalia, we can't associate a fee with DMCA process as it's a right everyone has

[16:30] Doctor Gascoigne: the majority of people do not want to carry the burden for your business

[16:30] Doctor Gascoigne: thats a fact

[16:31] Gwen Carillon: we talked about that about 2 months ago as a viable option

[16:31] Madelena Rossini: So long as it is a tiered system, and therefore does not choke the little guy, I am all for it.

[16:32] Gwen Carillon: many in the CCA were all for it at the time

[16:32] Madelena Rossini: One of the amazing things about the SL business community is that inspires innovation and creativity from even the smallest businesses

[16:32] Amalia Broome: can you base is on sqm of land?

[16:32] Gwen Carillon: not if they don't own land

[16:32] FlipperPA Peregrine: I really like Dirk's idea of being able to buy in piece-by-piece

[16:32] Madelena Rossini: Yes Flipper, me too

[16:32] Doctor Gascoigne: Dirk's idea is responsible

[16:32] Stroker Serpentine: Or sponsor others ~Smiles~

[16:32] You: yeah, i agree Flip...dirk's onto something

[16:32] Saffia Widdershins: yes, I agree

[16:33] Gwen Carillon: yes I 'd like too look at Dirks's idea

[16:33] Dirk Talamasca: Every dog has his day

[16:32] You: so if this is a trust system, what about these Levels of Participation.....

[16:33] You: should being an oldbie give you a higher reputation?

[16:33] Madelena Rossini: Age does not necessarily denote credibility

[16:33] You: lol

[16:33] Doctor Gascoigne: and every dog has to pay their share of the kibble

[16:33] Amalia Broome: so if a politician is 80 does that automatically make him a good guy?

[16:33] Aminom Marvin: Blue: not an oldbie per se. More like the combined weight of multiple people in the same field

[16:33] Madelena Rossini: Right Amalia

[16:34] Doctor Gascoigne: politics and commerce are not mutually exclusive

[16:34] You: well true Madelana, but a long time without successful DMCA takedown against a person could indicate an investment in SL economy

[16:34] Dimitrio Lewis: at least base it on time spent inworld rather than account age

[16:34] Madelena Rossini: Now that I would agree with Blue

[16:34] Tizzy Xue: I am interested to see how IP rights are going to pan out, especially when avatars will be able to move across grids.

[16:34] Doctor Gascoigne: grids?

[16:34] Gwen Carillon: see and there is room for abusing DMCA

[16:34] FlipperPA Peregrine: Madelena: age in SL with a clean slate does imply credibility. You can't just sweep it under the rug.

[16:34] Stroker Serpentine: I think seniority should have a portion of the rating...but a minimal percentage. You cant ignore the fact that having been in business in SL for years doesn't carry some weight and/or significance.

[16:35] Stroker Serpentine: Flip...get outta my head!

[16:35] You: what else could be used as part of a tiered trust system?

[16:35] Gwen Carillon: if a creator doesn't have money to fight a dispute

[16:35] Amalia Broome: letters of recommendation?

[16:35] Doctor Gascoigne: verification

[16:35] FlipperPA Peregrine: And as a comparison, you'd have to ask, "Does a senior citizen have more credibility than a teenager?" None of us are politicians in a position of power. And my answer would be YES, senior citizens have more credibility then teenagers, as for 40-somethings.

[16:35] Doctor Gascoigne: like the paypal verified accounts

[16:35] You: letters of recommendation hmmm....well my first thought is, who verifies the letter writer, and that it's likely a very manual process to do all that

[16:35] Tizzy Xue: For example, somebody exports your creation using say.. libsl... and begins selling it on an open grid. How does the original creator have any recourse?

[16:35] FlipperPA Peregrine grabs Stroker's head.

[16:35] FlipperPA Peregrine: *cough*

[16:35] You: in other words "doesn't scale"

[16:36] Stroker Serpentine: Letters=Popularity

[16:36] Dirk Talamasca: Don't swallow so fast Flip

[16:36] Delora Starbrook: This can't become a popularity contest.

[16:36] RawMilk905 Kline: why does one need recourse?

[16:36] Doctor Gascoigne: anything based on consensus is bad

[16:36] Doctor Gascoigne: it implies a popularity contest

[16:36] You: what if you could indicate the number of objects in your product catalog

[16:36] RawMilk905 Kline: if you are talented can't you create new content?

[16:36] You: do more products = less likely to pirate IP?

[16:36] Stroker Serpentine agrees w/Doc

[16:36] Amalia Broome: so in other's ALL trust....and that implies there will be mistrust..but inaction is worse than action with the intent to do something!

[16:36] Gwen Carillon: um...would be tough for me

[16:36] Toxic Menges: buyer endorsements, if you bought a product you could endorse the creator somehow

[16:36] Tizzy Xue: @raw Because that is blatant intellectual property theft.

[16:37] Saffia Widdershins: Not necessarily. Some people are real specialists

[16:37] Stroker Serpentine: Endorsements=Popularity

[16:37] Gwen Carillon: I agree Stroker

[16:37] RawMilk905 Kline: don't we all benefit from new content?

[16:37] Toxic Menges: not in a review sense, just a "I have bought a product"

[16:37] Aminom Marvin: Blue: I think more than anything, more income means less likely to pirate. So does owning larger amounts of land.

[16:37] Doctor Gascoigne: in RL business is E pluribus unum everyone else has to pay in cash

[16:37] You: is anyone part of another trust system online? Ebay for example, or LinkedIn?

[16:37] FlipperPA Peregrine: Blue: for the trust system, I really like Paypal's model. Give people 10 options to build trust, each with a point value. Email = 1 point. Home phone line = 5 points. Bank account = 10 points. Credit card = 10 points. Etc.

[16:37] Dimitrio Lewis: I'd say, the more products somebody has, the more likely they are to be borrowing elements from other sources to speed up their process

[16:38] FlipperPA Peregrine: Give 2 points for each year the resident has had a clean slate

[16:38] You: that's good Flip....assign points to various elements

[16:38] Gwen Carillon: I 've known pirates to own guarantee

[16:38] You: in those cases we have Number of ratings related to sales, and recommendations by networked members

[16:38] FlipperPA Peregrine: (or something like that)

[16:38] Aminom Marvin: Blue: I've read into Ebay's system and think is it an excellent solution. I've recommended that LL adopt a similar system in the past. That's why I am here :D

[16:38] Doctor Gascoigne: ebays system evolved out of necessity

[16:38] Doctor Gascoigne: mother of all invention

[16:38] RawMilk905 Kline: personally I would just abandon my content if I felt it was being pirated on a large scale

[16:38] Amalia Broome: no matter what we do, there will be issues to least doing something is a start

[16:38] Lizzie Gackt: Ebay system is good the more trusted u are the more stars u get

[16:38] Aminom Marvin: Of course, I have heard that it has been abused by the Church of Scientology(TM)

[16:38] Doctor Gascoigne: and someone else would step up

[16:39] FlipperPA Peregrine: Aminom: ha, very true :)

[16:39] RawMilk905 Kline: and I'd make something else

[16:39] Stroker Serpentine: It also incorporates many metrics...I think defining those metrics is what is paramount here

[16:39] Delora Starbrook: Hahah. Let's not bring CoS in here

[16:39] You: the only problem currently for adopting eBay system here is the lack of ability to rate transactions

[16:39] Doctor Gascoigne: content creation is often a business with ROI

[16:39] RawMilk905 Kline: or keep distributing it in the knowledge that it was mine

[16:39] Doctor Gascoigne: it has to be worthy

[16:39] Gwen Carillon: A creator in world just like out of world takes a certain amount of loss due to theft into account...within reason though

[16:39] Madelena Rossini: Anything that is open to the mass mobilization of social groups is open to abuse. Nothing in that respect is airtight which is why there needs to be an appeals system for the appeals system.

[16:40] Gwen Carillon: As a creator in both it's a concern

[16:40] Delora Starbrook: SLX has a rating system based on purchases, but I don't see that working well on a grid-wide scale due to the popularity contest aspects of it.

[16:40] Lizzie Gackt: can the creators not put their rl date of birth on their creations

[16:40] You: okay....we have 20 minutes left, I want to hit at least one more aspect of the topic here......SOOoooo.......

[16:40] You: what BENEFITS of a system like this would you think are important

[16:40] Aminom Marvin: Madelena: I think the appeals system for the appeals system would be the court system

[16:40] Dirk Talamasca: Hit it Blue

[16:40] You: I'm seeing a couple right up front

[16:41] Doctor Gascoigne: verification

[16:41] You: 1) As a registered creator I promise my stuff won't end up being blacklisted

[16:41] FlipperPA Peregrine: The other problem I see with eBay style transactions is they eventually tie to RL$ transactions which can be verified most often through Paypal, which eBay owns.

[16:41] Doctor Gascoigne: your purchasing guaranteed good goods

[16:41] You: 2) Registered creators have a "registered" symbol on profile for easy identify

[16:41] You: 3) We can automate DMCA counterclaims for registered creators

[16:41] Doctor Gascoigne: look for the union label

[16:41] You: haha exactly Doc

[16:41] Gwen Carillon: that would rock

[16:41] Amalia Broome: seal of approval

[16:41] Doctor Gascoigne: finally

[16:42] Doctor Gascoigne: its communism in microcosm`

[16:42] Saffia Widdershins: Your goods, being legit, could have portability

[16:42] You: what else would be beneficial?

[16:42] Delora Starbrook: That would be fantastic, Blue. Automated DMCA. And... I'd like to see, if we end up with a multi-tiered verification system, the 'verified rank' on the profile as well.

[16:42] You: does it make sense to list registered creators on the website?

[16:42] Stroker Serpentine: This should also encompass Land Developers IMO

[16:42] Stroker Serpentine: Not just COntent Creators

[16:44] Stroker Serpentine: Why couldn't this also include a credibility rating for rental agents?

<that could be a good plan, but a completely different good plan....and perhaps a good topic for future office hour! - blue>

[16:42] Aminom Marvin: Blue: 1) Ability to show quantifiable trust that you are the legitimate creator of the works in question 2) Ability to have LL deal with DMCA takedowns in a more nuanced way (LL can opt to refuse to act on DMCA notices for blatantly abused notices)

[16:42] FlipperPA Peregrine: I'm really liking this idea... first time I've felt positive about policies for content creators lately.

[16:42] Doctor Gascoigne: the question is if you do not create content and a tree falls in the woods who owns the textures

[16:43] You: I'm not entirely sure how that works Aminom...I mean LL opting to refuse to act....

[16:43] You: but I've heard that There will ignore your DMCAs after a certain number of false reports

[16:43] FlipperPA Peregrine: Some of the SNAFUs have made it seem like all the benefits were being given to the thieves (IE: Rase Kenzo and Volkov Catteneo, who admitted in court papers to breaking the law in SL, still have accounts)

[16:43] Aminom Marvin: I mean, if Joe_Newbie files a DMCA for _all_ of say, Lilith Heart's work, LL can deny to grant the request by having Lilith provide proof

[16:43] FlipperPA Peregrine: So this is definitely moving in the right direction.

[16:43] Delora Starbrook: DMCAs will be acted on, regardless. But abuse of the DMCA process carries HEAVY penalties.

[16:43] FlipperPA Peregrine: Frivolous DMCA = -20 trust points :)

[16:43] Madelena Rossini: It just makes me nervous that there would become an elitist movement that would leave the little guy out of the loop

[16:43] You: okay, that's a good point do we ensure that the registry is seen as fully inclusive

[16:43] Doctor Gascoigne: demerits

[16:43] Doctor Gascoigne: are we talking demerits

[16:43] Doctor Gascoigne: OH god

[16:44] You: is asking for name/address/phone number too much of a deterrent to legit creators?

[16:44] Madelena Rossini: Not at all

[16:44] Amalia Broome: no

[16:44] Aminom Marvin: Blue: not at all

[16:44] CheerGirl Allen: yes

[16:44] Madelena Rossini: I have no problem with transparency :p

[16:44] You: and yeah Flip....the bag guys do have numerous advantages....

[16:44] Saffia Widdershins: as long as it was securely held

[16:44] Delora Starbrook: And registry people will have a streamlined access to the DMCA process. ... I'd rather not see 'demerits' here, I'd like to see MAJOR penalties for inappropriate DMCAs. And if we're trying to do registry, and become legitimized, we must be willing to give up some of our anonymity.

[16:44] FlipperPA Peregrine: Blue: No, not at all - name/address/phone number SHOULD be an option - but never a requirement. Again, the higher the trust number...

[16:44] You: as Churchill said....a lie gets halfway around the world before the truth gets its pants on

[16:44] Saffia Widdershins: And for it to work, you'd need to take on EU data security, I think

[16:44] You: right...that does make sense Flip

[16:44] Madelena Rossini nods

[16:44] FlipperPA Peregrine: Blue: hehehe, quite true.

[16:45] Doctor Gascoigne: next thing you know will be blogs with this bozo stole my hair texture

[16:45] Doctor Gascoigne: and all kinds of trouble

[16:45] You: we already see those Doc ;)

[16:45] Doctor Gascoigne: oh god

[16:45] Doctor Gascoigne: I need to google more

[16:45] Stroker Serpentine: In spades

[16:45] You: but why anyone would want to wear Bozo's hair....sheesh

[16:45] You: no class

[16:45] FlipperPA Peregrine: If you get the registered symbol with a number beside it, that'd be huge, especially for LL - "Stroker with a 95 says this, and Rase Kenzo with a 0 says this." Who do you trust?

[16:45] Doctor Gascoigne: hey!

[16:45] Doctor Gascoigne: bozo is cool

[16:45] FlipperPA Peregrine: If Stroker ended up lying, he loses his points :)

[16:45] Doctor Gascoigne: public flagellation

[16:46] Doctor Gascoigne: maybe tar and feathers

[16:46] Madelena Rossini: lol

[16:46] Delora Starbrook: If Stroker ended up lying, he not only loses his points, he probably gets penalized with a heavy RL fine for it.

[16:46] You: hehe okay well let's get into the crime and punishment of it all.....

[16:46] Amalia Broome: banning for 30 days

[16:46] Doctor Gascoigne: my favorite

[16:46] You: should a successful DMCA takedown mean permanent removal from Registry?

[16:46] Doctor Gascoigne: work Ahern with me for a month

[16:46] Delora Starbrook: I believe so, yes.

[16:46] Toxic Menges: yes

[16:46] CheerGirl Allen: items removed from Frauds Inventory

[16:46] Madelena Rossini: I hate the word permanent

[16:46] Gwen Carillon: there is a situation at the moment with an alleged thief...3 take downs so far and they are still in business and putting content back up

[16:46] FlipperPA Peregrine: Delora: that to, but being an SL content creator who takes years to build your reputation... your reputation should be fair more valuable than money.

[16:46] Stroker Serpentine: Transparency has to be paramount...checks and double cannot offer credibility through a resource that has none.

[16:46] Delora Starbrook: DMCA take down should be 'no more registry status'

[16:47] Madelena Rossini: That doesn't allow for any form of rehabilitation

[16:47] FlipperPA Peregrine: Delora: it should be no more account, IP and hardware ban...

[16:47] Stroker Serpentine: The rating will only be as good as the system of means that provides it.

[16:47] FlipperPA Peregrine: And revelation of public information!

[16:47] You: okay, if people are agreeing to 3rd party dispute resolution on the issue, would that make 1 strike you're out less attractive?

[16:47] Delora Starbrook: Correct, Stroker. And yes, Flipper.

[16:47] Gwen Carillon: and removal of content from server

[16:47] FlipperPA Peregrine: And flogging in the courtyard!

[16:47] Toxic Menges: But they already understand why they should be adhering ?

[16:47] You: or only if LL is doing the dispute resolution

[16:47] Amalia Broome: it should be removal with the ability to reapply in 60 days

[16:47] FlipperPA Peregrine: Put them in the dunking tank at SLCC!

[16:47] FlipperPA Peregrine: Okay, I'll stop now. :)

[16:47] Madelena Rossini: lol

[16:47] You: I think the flogging goes on at stroker's place ;D

[16:47] Aminom Marvin: Blue: I think so. That provides a huge disincentive to do the dispute process

[16:47] Tizzy Xue: lmao

[16:48] FlipperPA Peregrine: Ha, true that Blue; I take that one back, some might enjoy it. This is SL after all.

[16:48] Stroker Serpentine: Eros Dungeon Eros 123/456/789

[16:48] You: so maybe a successful DMCA takedown results in loss of trust tier?

[16:48] Madelena Rossini: Yes

[16:48] Aminom Marvin: yea

[16:48] Delora Starbrook: I believe, personally, that people who have resorted to using another person's content to profit off of it wouldn't be something they would 'rehabilitate' from.

[16:48] CheerGirl Allen: loss of DMCA = Linden labs Ban the Guilty IP address

[16:48] Lizzie Gackt: as i cant keep upim all for the flogging

[16:48] Madelena Rossini: or even probabation

[16:48] You: say -50 points for unchallenged takedown and -25 for challenge with loss?

[16:49] FlipperPA Peregrine: Blue: I'd say -25 for unchallenged, and -50 for loss

[16:49] Madelena Rossini: I agree with Flipper

[16:50] You: i'll buy that Flip

[16:49] Lum Pfohl: banning IP address does very little -

[16:49] Lum Pfohl: my IP address changes daily

[16:49] You: well, that IS the case sometimes Cheer, when there's obvious copybot violation

[16:49] Tizzy Xue: Oh how Linden Lab loves banning those IP addresses. When in doubt, kick them out.

[16:49] You: hehe it's probably not as common as you think Tizzy.....I get people yelling that we're not harsh enough

[16:49] FlipperPA Peregrine: More work for a loss

[16:50] Amalia Broome: give them a time out...take away their addiction

[16:50] Madelena Rossini: Yeah but there is always human error Blue :p

[16:50] Stroker Serpentine shouts: LINDEN LAB IS NOT HARSH ENOUGH!!

[16:50] You: it works as a deterrent to trying to game the system with counterclaims

[16:50] You: lol

[16:50] Delora Starbrook laughs.

[16:50] Blue Linden reaches for big red ban button

[16:50] FlipperPA Peregrine: I'd also say, once you get caught stealing content, you lose all rights for protection ever, and if you're caught creating another account on LL's grid, legal action will be pursued.

[16:50] Madelena Rossini: Meanie

[16:50] Delora Starbrook wants a big red ban button!

[16:50] RawMilk905 Kline: you don't take away an addiction that is paid for

[16:50] FlipperPA Peregrine: I'm against the death penalty in RL, but not for avatars :)

[16:50] Tizzy Xue: The word "we" is the root of the problem Blue. There is no system of checks and balances.

[16:50] Stroker Serpentine: Flip..that requires LL interaction

[16:50] Madelena Rossini: Flipper, how can you say that? !!!

[16:50] You: well, then permaban flip?

[16:50] FlipperPA Peregrine: SL is a privilege not a right, people have to stop treating our dream world like their toilet.

[16:50] Lum Pfohl: legal action will be pursued? In which country Flipper?

[16:51] FlipperPA Peregrine: Blue: that's what I'm suggesting :) I know LL wouldn't ever pursue it, but a bigger hammer might keep the thieves more at bay.

[16:51] Toxic Menges: Will banning an avi be a deterrent in itself ?

[16:51] Dirk Talamasca: I'd like to see the evidence of the offense rather than just how many points were whacked

[16:51] Toxic Menges: perhaps taking status down is better

[16:51] Delora Starbrook: I would like to see a bigger hammer as well.

[16:51] Gwen Carillon: I agree

[16:51] FlipperPA Peregrine: I'm also not saying a DMCA loss, here, folks - I'm talking about loss in court, like Rase Kenzo and Volkov Catteneo lost to Stroker.;

[16:51] RawMilk905 Kline: then you have disputes with LL over taking away accounts that are paid for

[16:51] You: well....take into account, before we start chopping heads, that only a RL court can decide actual ownership of IP...LL can't do that

[16:52] You: we can only act on DMCA claims

[16:52] You: can't verify them

[16:52] FlipperPA Peregrine: They admitted, in a US court of law, to intellectual property theft... we need a bigger penalty for that.

[16:52] RawMilk905 Kline: therefore theft from the consumer

[16:52] You: ah I see what you're saying

[16:52] You: so someone who loses court case is permabanned?

[16:52] FlipperPA Peregrine: Yes.

[16:52] Delora Starbrook: Yes pleeeeease.

[16:52] CheerGirl Allen: yes

[16:52] Stroker Serpentine: Duh!

[16:52] You: hmm...

[16:52] FlipperPA Peregrine: IE: Why do Rase Kenzo and Volkov Catteneo still have accounts?

[16:52] Aminom Marvin: doubleaffirmative

[16:52] Madelena Rossini: wow

[16:52] FlipperPA Peregrine: Stroker spent tends of thousands of dollars pursuing them in court

[16:52] You: well, what about those who consider that a life affirming process and turn over a new leaf and want to start a church in SL?

[16:52] FlipperPA Peregrine: LL slapped them with 2 weeks suspensions, heh.

[16:53] Dimitrio Lewis: What about the falsely accused and falsely convicted? Honorable people should not resort to legal battles.

[16:53] Lum Pfohl: How does LL or the US court litigate against someone from Russia or Nigeria or Korea?

[16:53] Delora Starbrook: And they're still allowed to wander around our world that they attempted to jerk around.

[16:53] You: 2 weeks?

[16:53] FlipperPA Peregrine: Stroker, 2 weeks, that's right?

[16:53] Delora Starbrook: Two weeks is NOTHING.

[16:53] CheerGirl Allen: show me the church they start I will be teh mother superior

[16:53] You: lol Cheer

[16:53] FlipperPA Peregrine: Blue: I can back you guys on most things, but that one really pissed me off, heh.

[16:53] Dirk Talamasca: I repent Blue.

[16:53] You: Lum, I'm not sure

[16:53] You: but I believe there is a group of nations who share the same copyright standard

[16:53] You: so it depends on where they are from

[16:53] Stroker Serpentine: I dont want to discuss blood pressure is already bad enough after this weekends fiasco

[16:54] Aminom Marvin: Blue: well then, perhaps permanently disable the ability for their account of give or receive lindens

[16:54] Delora Starbrook: That could be amusing.

[16:54] Aminom Marvin: then they can build their church with library textures ;)

[16:54] Tizzy Xue: Blue, can you confirm or deny Linden Lab's voluntary involvement with the CIA?

[16:54] FlipperPA Peregrine gives Stroker a diet soda and a lawn chair :)

[16:54] Doctor Gascoigne: father doc will hear confessions

[16:54] You: at the very least i think that if there's a permaban associated with RL courtroom loss then it should be WIDELY publicized as a means of deterrent

[16:54] Toxic Menges: remove their status, make it known .. WOM will do the rest - in cases where jurisdiction is a problem

[16:54] Doctor Gascoigne: bless you my son

[16:54] FlipperPA Peregrine: Blue: there are a number of nations that adhere to international copyrights of various flavors, yes. I could get Frank to do a blog post on it.

[16:54] Dirk Talamasca: You need a puppy to make you laugh Stroker.

[16:54] FlipperPA Peregrine: You also have a limited amount of time after filing a patent, for example, to file internationally.

[16:55] FlipperPA Peregrine: Blue: agreed. :)

[16:55] Aminom Marvin: Blue: yea. I don't believe in the principle of "punishment," I believe in deterrence and problem resolution

[16:55] You: education is key....

[16:55] Stroker Serpentine: Berne Convention covers 90% of SL...US Copyright covers the other 10%

[16:55] Aminom Marvin: it isn't about "getting even" but making people think twice before pirating

[16:55] Madelena Rossini: Agreed Aminom

[16:55] Tizzy Xue: Once again Blue, can you confirm or deny Linden Lab's voluntary involvement with the CIA?

[16:55] You: hopefully in the upcoming quarter I'll be able to add something like "coordinate with creators to widely educate on IP rights" or similar

[16:55] Doctor Gascoigne: there will always be a dark underbelly

[16:56] Toxic Menges: educating the residents to make them aware before they buy as much as possible

[16:56] You: involvement with CIA? I have no idea

[16:56] You: I'm always the last to know these things ;p

[16:56] Blue Linden erases all emails regarding water boarding residents

[16:56] Stroker Serpentine swizzles his flogger in Blue's direction? Dont believe in punishment huh?

[16:56] CheerGirl Allen: Tizzy are you trying to blow my cover?

[16:56] Tizzy Xue: Pretty much Cheer

[16:56] Tizzy Xue: I'm onto you girl.

[16:56] FlipperPA Peregrine: Blue: Frank Taney (attorney extraordinaire), Stroker and I have all worked to start educating residents. Would you like links for the Wiki on some of the sessions we've done?

[16:56] Doctor Gascoigne: its just particles blue turn them off in advanced

[16:56] You: lol get that cat o 9 tails away from me ;p

[16:57] Aminom Marvin: rofl

[16:57] Dirk Talamasca: I say we sever their heads and put them on sharp poles on the Orientation Islands

[16:57] You: sure Flip....I'll definitely be talking to you guys in the future about ways LL can make that info more visible

[16:57] Doctor Gascoigne: be the most brains OIP ever saw

[16:57] FlipperPA Peregrine: I agree, education is a big part. We have a lot of people who find their artistic muse in SL, which is great, who just don't understand how the law protects them.

[16:57] Madelena Rossini: eww

[16:57] Aminom Marvin: oh god, now I am going to have to search to see if a water boarding thing exists in SL

[16:57] You: eesh

[16:57] You: lol

[16:57] Aminom Marvin: anyone wanna wager that it does?

[16:57] Doctor Gascoigne: lies all lies

[16:57] Aminom Marvin gets banned for gambling.

[16:57] Bino Arbuckle would not be surprised

[16:57] Delora Starbrook has seen it. >.<

[16:58] FlipperPA Peregrine: A great site, for anyone who doesn't know, is - it covers legal issues in virtual worlds. Good reading, very educational, and in ENGLISH, not lawyer-speak!

[16:58] Dirk Talamasca: Link Me Flip. I wanna go to all of em

[16:58] Madelena Rossini: The trouble is your don't want to overload new residents with rules and regulations. It can be overwhelming enough when they first arrive in world. I would have thought that most of te copyright laws are common sense.

[16:58] Bino Arbuckle wants to oilboard Petroleum Execs

[16:58] Stroker Serpentine: SO why isn't Content Piracy part of the incoming newb experience...I mean the damn parrot on Newbie Island could squawk..."Dont steal cont..awwwwwk"

[16:58] Lum Pfohl: ty

[16:58] Delora Starbrook: Hah Stroker!

[16:59] You: lol Stroker

[16:59] Madelena Rossini: lol

[16:59] Doctor Gascoigne: I want the parrot to say don't ask me where the sex is ever

[16:59] You: of course new user experience is one of my other favorite topics

[16:59] Madelena Rossini: Or "this is serious business and not a game"

[16:59] FlipperPA Peregrine: I can see it now: the next Orientation Island, featuring how-to's on GL-intercept!

[16:59] You: and I'll just add two words to that

[16:59] You: Information Overload

[16:59] Madelena Rossini: Exactly Blue

[16:59] Madelena Rossini: Q.E.D.

[16:59] Stroker Serpentine: Topics schmopics..lets see boots on the ground!!

[16:59] You: we can't even get people to read the EXIT sign

[17:00] You: they stand next to the big word EXIT and say "how do I exit this place?"

[16:59] Saffia Widdershins: The simplest methods will work best

[16:59] Tizzy Xue: Honestly I think all of this point system nonsense is overkill. If Linden Lab is going to tout Second Life as the "Web in 3D", start treating it like the web. When you copy somebody else's website you sue them IRL.

[17:00] Saffia Widdershins: If people are part of the Registry, it should show on their groups.

[17:00] Madelena Rossini: Maybe they didn't read the "how to camera around" thing

[17:00] CheerGirl Allen: well if this Point systems in put into practice then I would Expect all Newbies to be informed of it apon landing at orientation island

[17:00] Delora Starbrook: Oh god NOT groups

[17:00] Aminom Marvin: Blue: maybe provide carrots on the ends of sticks to encourage newlings to do tutorials etc?

[17:00] Delora Starbrook: Please not groups

[17:00] Saffia Widdershins: that would be a simple message to drive home.

[17:00] FlipperPA Peregrine: Tiz: that has been done. But every major commerce site has rating and trust systems as well (Paypal, eBay)

[17:00] You: well, that's difficult for people to do Tizzy...although it's recommended in the end, we'd like to deter rather than have to have people resort to it.

At this point we veer off topic so I'll stop here...I believe that the fact we made it through the whole hour is indicative of the importance of this topic. Many thanks to all who joined us! -Blue