User:Enkidu Linden/Office Hours/2010-04-29

List of Attendees

• Enkidu Linden
• Mojito Sorbet
• Morgaine Dinova
• Nastasja Faerye
• Techwolf Lupindo
• Xugu Madison

Transcript

[11:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Who knows, we'll see :-)
[11:03]	Xugu Madison:	Enkidu!
[11:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yay! It's Enki!
[11:03]	Enkidu Linden:	whew, hey everyone
[11:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	o/
[11:03]	Xugu Madison:	who unplugged the grid last night?
[11:03]	Enkidu Linden:	sorry i'm so late!
[11:04]	Xugu Madison:	It's okay!
[11:04]	Enkidu Linden:	yeah the grid was in trouble
[11:04]	Enkidu Linden:	sorry guys but my mom unplugged the modem
[11:04]	Xugu MadisonXugu	Madison grins
[11:05]	Xugu Madison:	Do we get to know what happened, BTW?
[11:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Rule #1 of online services: Never let the vacuum cleaner person into the machine room.
[11:05]	Enkidu Linden:	there hasn't been a blog post?
[11:05]	Xugu Madison:	The status page said they're fixing it, hadn't checked blogs..
[11:06]	Xugu Madison:	Nope, last post was the economy hitting a new high
[11:06]	Enkidu Linden:	we're winning!
[11:06]	Enkidu Linden:	never mind the downtime
[11:06]	Xugu Madison:	:)
[11:06]	Xugu Madison:	It's okay. Everyone will forget by tomorrow
[11:07]	Xugu Madison:	Oddly, I'm sure I should be encouraging people to be more bitter about downtime...
[11:07]	Enkidu Linden:	i was, fortunately, not involved in any way
[11:07]	Enkidu Linden:	so i slept well last night
[11:07]	Xugu Madison:	.:-D
[11:07]	Enkidu Linden:	but don't tell the others
[11:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Whether we forget or not is irrelevant. What matters is that YOU don't forget --- lessons must have been learned.
[11:07]	Xugu Madison:	Don't you get the UK peeps doing overnight support US time?
[11:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	UK is offset +8h, so you just need another office offset -8h and you have 24h coverage without overtime.
[11:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	I have a PhD in addition and subtraction ;-)
[11:09]	Xugu Madison:	Enkidu has gone quiet. I wonder if he's off going "Guys! Why don't we get the UK peeps doing overnight support?" :)
[11:10]	Enkidu Linden:	"someone get on a plane and get these people properly supported!"
[11:11]	Enkidu Linden:	so, really, i was trying to find the postmortem about it
[11:11]	Xugu Madison:	Well, there is also the element of downtimes being focused around good for US-time, but I had meant that it would seem best to use staff who are awake anyway to cover what will be 1am to 9am your time
[11:11]	Xugu Madison:	hey Mojito!
[11:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Western Australia is on GMT+8 --- that's a good spot + UK for 24h coverage
[11:14]	Mojito Sorbet:	I use a web hosting company with servers in Hong Kong and Massachusetts, and support people in Bulgaria. :)
[11:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Mojito :-)
[11:14]	Enkidu Linden:	so what would you guys like to talk about today?
[11:14]	Enkidu Linden:	i did get an answer from the viewer team about web component instrumentation
[11:15]	Morgaine DinovaMorgaine	Dinova tries to have webbie thoughts
[11:15]	Xugu Madison:	Erm. I hadn't thought that far ahead, reallly...
[11:15]	Enkidu Linden:	the short answer is that there isn't any special instrumentation of webkit yet
[11:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Enki: and their answer was?
[11:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ouch
[11:15]	Xugu Madison:	here's one. How about using the HTML 5 FileAPI to allow us to drag and drop images on to the Second Life website to upload them as textures?
[11:16]	Enkidu Linden:	but they've got it on the to-do list
[11:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cool
[11:16]	Mojito Sorbet:	Or *download* textures, come to that.
[11:16]	Mojito Sorbet:	Or access inventory in general
[11:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, I have a web-related topic: REST
[11:17]	Enkidu Linden:	that would be pretty sweet
[11:17]	Xugu Madison:	Mojito, oddly, when writing stuff to drag files into web browers, no-one seems to have written a spec for dragging them back out again
[11:17]	Mojito Sorbet:	WebDAV doesn't address it?
[11:17]	Enkidu Linden:	do you need a spec for that?
[11:17]	Xugu Madison:	Mojito, well, I haven't seen Firefox do WebDAV yet...
[11:18]	Mojito Sorbet:	Right-click the texture in your inventory, select "Save as..."
[11:18]	Enkidu Linden:	i totally agree that we should give you all inventory access through the web
[11:18]	Mojito Sorbet:	I mean, your inventory as displayed on a web page
[11:18]	Xugu Madison:	Mojito, if your users can follow that every time, they're better than ours
[11:18]	Enkidu Linden:	although i would start with an api for it before moving on to html5
[11:18]	Mojito Sorbet:	You dont need HTML5. You can do it with today's web
[11:18]	Xugu MadisonXugu	Madison wouldn't trust some of the users with a damp sponge, lest they find a way of injuring themselves
[11:19]	Enkidu Linden:	sure but html5 makes it extra fancy
[11:19]	Mojito Sorbet:	Just make it work. Fancy can wait until it works
[11:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	We have the API already, it's called HTTP+CRUD operations, and HTML if you want it human-readable directly :-)
[11:20]	Xugu Madison:	So, Enkidu, more web APIs?
[11:20]	Enkidu Linden:	well, yes
[11:20]	Enkidu Linden:	more web apis
[11:20]	Xugu MadisonXugu	Madison would love a web payments API, while you're at it. Let me transfer/receive L$ through the web, PayPal style
[11:21]	Mojito Sorbet:	Hmm, I would want really good security on such a thing
[11:22]	Xugu MadisonXugu	Madison nods to Mojto
[11:22]	Enkidu Linden:	it's funny how we keep coming back to openid/oauth
[11:23]	Xugu Madison:	Need OAuth...
[11:23]	Xugu Madison:	NEED
[11:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Enkidu: if we add up all the time we spend entering login information across 100's of services and applications, it represents a significant shortening of life. It's got to stop.
[11:24]	Xugu Madison:	Not to mention the insanity involved with websites that deal with SL residents and have to maintain their own auth systems. For example, the Tiny Empires wikis I run
[11:24]	Enkidu Linden:	i hear you
[11:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	And to put it bluntly, that means Linden ceasing its total control over the auth process for SL.
[11:25]	Xugu Madison:	So, Enki, what have you been doing this week?
[11:26]	Enkidu Linden:	mostly writing docs
[11:26]	Xugu Madison:	Ooh. What are ya documenting?
[11:27]	Enkidu Linden:	wow i can't type today
[11:28]	Xugu MadisonXugu	Madison prods the Internet "Finding it remarkably tricky to seed Ubuntu. Okay, so my server is firewalled, I'm sorry, but... 20kB/s upstream on a server that can push 3MB/s through the net? What's wrong..."
[11:29]	Enkidu Linden:	well, i'm working on something new that i can't really talk about yet, but hopefully i'll be able to say more soon
[11:30]	Xugu Madison:	This happens a lot, doesn't it :)
[11:30]	Xugu Madison:	Okay... heard of anything interesting going on that you can tell us?
[11:31]	Enkidu Linden:	the jquery conference was last weekend
[11:31]	Enkidu Linden:	i couldn't go, but ghengis did
[11:31]	Xugu Madison:	That's really geeky. Was it fun? :)
[11:31]	Enkidu Linden:	it sounded fun!
[11:32]	Enkidu Linden:	he got to meet steve souders so i'm a little jealous
[11:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Enki: some 7-8 months ago, Zero held his last OH, telling us that he was starting work on his secret project for SL 3-5 years ahead, and that because he would not be able to speak about it for some months, he was terminating the OHs for a while. It's now "several months" --- any idea if he's coming close to unstealthing? we have no more contact with him. If you don't know, could you perhaps enquire for us for next time?
[11:32]	Enkidu Linden:	but the main take-away was that we're on the right track in our quest for client-side performance
[11:33]	Enkidu Linden:	sure, i'd be happy to ask him how it's going
[11:33]	Xugu Madison:	So; pushing more work out to the clients, from the servers, or just doing fancier things?
[11:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks :-)
[11:34]	Enkidu Linden:	i'd like to know what he's up to as well
[11:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[11:35]	Enkidu Linden:	pushing work to clients is a really interesting idea. i've been thinking about it a little bit on my own time
[11:35]	Enkidu Linden:	but no, sadly, we're still working on not making your browser do really dumb things, like download huge js files and run one function in them
[11:36]	Enkidu Linden:	ironically, jquery itself is one of these big files
[11:36]	Enkidu LindenEnkidu	Linden shakes fist at jquery
[11:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Pushing work out to clients is great ... except in the way that Q wants to do it in Firefly. If you want to run opaque binary executables on your own machine, that's a risk you can choose to take. Taking that risk on OUR machines is unacceptable.
[11:36]	Xugu Madison:	So... what we really want is the ability for pages to say "I want jQuery <version>, go get it" and the browser finds a copy if it's not cached yet?
[11:37]	Enkidu Linden:	much more than that
[11:37]	Enkidu Linden:	i want to be able to download exactly the piece of code that will be executed and no more
[11:39]	Xugu Madison:	So... having the JS files start with an index that lists function start offsets?
[11:39]	Enkidu Linden:	there are a couple of long internal blog posts on firefly i haven't read yet, so i know very little about it other than it reminds me of joss whedon
[11:40]	Enkidu Linden:	possibly, xugu, yeah
[11:40]	Xugu MadisonXugu	Madison needs to get a job with LL just so he can read the internal blog posts
[11:41]	Enkidu Linden:	we would also expect you to work!
[11:41]	Nastasja Faerye:	how did u make ur self look like a squid?
[11:41]	Nastasja Faerye:	it's so cool!
[11:41]	Nastasja Faerye:	(:
[11:41]	Xugu Madison:	You don't have a post that's "Internal blog reader", then? :)
[11:41]	Enkidu Linden:	oh, thank you
[11:42]	Nastasja Faerye:	no prob
[11:42]	Enkidu Linden:	i bought this avatar on xstreet
[11:42]	Nastasja Faerye:	it;s like soooo cool
[11:42]	Nastasja Faerye:	so I'm kinda new here
[11:42]	Nastasja Faerye:	and really confused
[11:42]	Nastasja Faerye:	can u help me
[11:43]	Nastasja Faerye:	what is this place
[11:43]	Xugu MadisonXugu	Madison hopes Enkidu has good answers...
[11:43]	Xugu Madison:	and she's gone
[11:43]	Enkidu Linden:	haha
[11:44]	Enkidu Linden:	such is the second life
[11:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Perhaps short attention span is the reason for low newbie retention rates ... rather than viewer UI :-)
[11:44]	Xugu Madison:	My brain is full of Moodle at the moment. If I try explaining anything at all, I think it'll end up as an intro on Moodle
[11:45]	Enkidu Linden:	so, one thing i can tell you about this week is that we've been working on this new project using a mild form of TDD
[11:45]	Xugu Madison:	TDD?
[11:45]	Enkidu Linden:	test driven development
[11:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe, you can't have "mild" TDD, it's like being partially pregnant :-)
[11:45]	Enkidu Linden:	hahaha
[11:45]	Enkidu Linden:	yeah, i'm seeing that!
[11:46]	Xugu Madison:	Test? Isn't that what users are for? :)
[11:46]	Enkidu Linden:	maybe i should say we're in the first trimester and in denial
[11:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ouch, lol
[11:47]	Enkidu Linden:	the good news is that we've been doing a great job of maintaining 100% coverage as we work
[11:48]	Enkidu Linden:	nosetests --with-coverage is my best friend lately
[11:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well if you're doing TDD for web stuff, then I sure hope you're using REST, because it's relatively easy to test REST noun states because they're individually addressible, whereas it's murder in SOAP/RPC type mechanisms.
[11:49]	Enkidu Linden:	we are indeed making every attempt to be RESTful
[11:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's well named ... makes for a peaceful life :-)
[11:50]	Enkidu Linden:	yesterday, ghengis: "i'm too tired for this to be restful"
[11:50]	Enkidu Linden:	we had a long, long day yesterday
[11:51]	Enkidu Linden:	but i do agree. i enjoy rest
[11:51]	Enkidu Linden:	actually, i was chatting with the human formerly known as Which the other day
[11:52]	Xugu Madison:	how's he doing?
[11:52]	Enkidu Linden:	he turned me on to restish
[11:52]	Xugu Madison:	(I have to run in a second, just so ya know)
[11:52]	Enkidu Linden:	he's doing well
[11:52]	Enkidu Linden:	not as good as he could be doing if he came back
[11:52]	Enkidu Linden:	because we would shower him with ferocious affection
[11:53]	Xugu MadisonXugu	Madison eyes the ferociously affectionate jelly fish "Ah ha...."
[11:54]	Enkidu Linden:	yeah, no one wants to hug these deadly tentacles
[11:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hahaha. Which was cool. And I'm sure still is, even if called What now.
[11:56]	Xugu MadisonXugu	Madison grins
[11:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	REST is actually not doing so well in VWRAP currently. I just posted this today -- http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/msg00115.html
[11:56]	Xugu Madison:	and I must run. Take care all, thanks for hosting Enkidu!
[11:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Xu :-)
[11:56]	Enkidu Linden:	my pleasure. thanks for coming!
[11:56]	couch sit	1: llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[11:58]	Enkidu Linden:	hmm
[11:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	You don't really need to think of it as a formal protocol for state transitions in most web work, but our scenario is pretty complex in VWRAP, so an ad hoc approach is not really the way to go.
[12:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Tech!
[12:02]	Enkidu Linden:	yeah i'm a little surprised by john's part 3
[12:03]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Hi all. I made it back in. Let hope the hamspters stop chewing on the cables. :-)
[12:03]	Enkidu Linden:	welcome!
[12:03]	Enkidu Linden:	but unfortuantely it's time for me to eat lunch and get back to work
[12:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Shhh Tech, speak quietly, it's still fragile, you know, like the morning after a total wipeout.
[12:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Bon appetit :-)
[12:04]	Enkidu Linden:	have there been any blog posts yet?
[12:05]	Enkidu Linden:	ah, i see something on http://status.secondlifegrid.net/
[12:09]	Enkidu Linden:	well, i'd better run. morgaine, i'll ask zero how he's doing for you and let you know next week. and of course i'll keep trying to convince which to give up on his third life
[12:11]	Enkidu Linden:	thanks for coming, everyone! see you next week!
[12:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu next time Enki :-)

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