User:Enkidu Linden/Office Hours/2010-05-06

List of Attendees

• Ardy Lay
• ATechwolf FoxclawATechwolf
• ATechwolf Foxclaw
• couch sit
• Enkidu Linden
• Honour McMillan
• Jonathan YapJonathan
• Jonathan Yap
• Machiel Menges
• Morgaine DinovaMorgaine
• Morgaine Dinova
• Second Life
• You just

Transcript

[10:57]	You just	entered a region using a different server version, which may affect performance. View the release notes.
[10:57]		Ver.4.0 (B): Unknown animation state 'Init'
[10:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Enki :-)
[10:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Getting coffee, biab
[10:59]	Enkidu Linden:	hiya!
[11:03]	Enkidu Linden:	i suppose we can start now
[11:05]	Enkidu Linden:	is there anything anyone would like to discuss before i start in on web performance again?
[11:05]	ATechwolf FoxclawATechwolf	Foxclaw is barly here
[11:07]	Enkidu Linden:	sounds like today's going to be pretty calm
[11:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Back
[11:08]	Morgaine DinovaMorgaine	Dinova waves
[11:08]	Enkidu Linden:	hello!
[11:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Enki, Tech :-)
[11:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Bit empty today. I'll spam Groupies
[11:09]	Enkidu Linden:	by the way, i spoke to zero. he says he has nothing to report on yet, but he's glad to know he's still in your hearts
[11:10]	Enkidu Linden:	yesterday was quite a day for talking with zero
[11:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Any news on Zero coming out of stealth mode?
[11:11]	Enkidu Linden:	nothing beyond 'not yet'
[11:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Bah
[11:12]	Enkidu Linden:	i know i'd be at his office hours too
[11:12]	Second Life:	Your region will restart in 5 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.
[11:12]	Enkidu Linden:	omg
[11:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	He doesn't bother to engage in VWRAP either. A completely "NIH" guy, the only thing that matters is his own opinion.
[11:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	We spent 2 years achieving nothing with Zero in AWG. He regarded it only ever as his own PR outlet.
[11:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kinda sad.
[11:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm sure he's a great engineer. Just not a teamworker.
[11:14]	Second Life:	Your region will restart in 3 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.
[11:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Suggest we adjourn to TBT while the restart is happening
[11:15]	Enkidu Linden:	one sec, trying to keep our region up
[11:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk
[11:16]	Enkidu Linden:	can you paste a slurl?
[11:16]	Enkidu Linden:	just in case
[11:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	No good, that's restarting too
[11:17]	Second Life:	Your region will restart in 1 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.
[11:17]	ATechwolf Foxclaw:	fuck..
[11:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	trying Hippotropiolis
[11:17]	couch sit	1: llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[11:17]	Second Life:	Your region will restart in 0 minutes and 30 seconds for maintenance.
[11:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hippo's OK
[11:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hippotropolis (242,30,23)
[11:18]	Enkidu Linden:	ok, see you over there
[11:18]	You just	entered a region using a different server version, which may affect performance. View the release notes.
[11:19]	Enkidu Linden:	good timing!
[11:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe, just made it in nick of time :P
[11:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hope Tech got it
[11:20]	Enkidu Linden:	i think he did not
[11:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, I see Yoz's OH is labelled "Web" too
[11:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	11:30 AM: Yoz Linden: Web, Social, Lots of random other stuff
[11:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	I guess that's not tech web though
[11:21]	Enkidu Linden:	anyway, you were saying
[11:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'll re-spam groupies with your new location
[11:22]	Enkidu Linden:	my experience with zero has always been quite positive, but we're also coworkers and can meet in person, so my perception of him is likely different
[11:22]	Enkidu Linden:	yoz is actually in the same team as me
[11:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, I was just laying into Zero a bit for never once having accepted anything from us in 2 years ogf AWG :-)
[11:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	I guess he never considered AWG as anything but one-way
[11:23]	Enkidu Linden:	we focus on somewhat different areas so there will probably be some overlap but it won't be a repeat
[11:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well VWRAP is definitely 2-way, yet he still doesn't engage.
[11:24]	Enkidu Linden:	hmm, i can't really comment on that since i don't know any of the history
[11:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Not really much of a history. Started off hugely ambitious, pretty much "Redesign SL to interoperate and to be scalable." That soon turned into "But LL won't have any part of it."
[11:26]	Enkidu Linden:	hey there, jonathan
[11:26]	Jonathan Yap:	Hi
[11:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	So I was very glad when AWG effectively moved to the IETF. We can get things done there, not limited by LL business constraints.
[11:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Jonathan
[11:26]	Jonathan Yap:	I was at jack's meeting but prok was ranting
[11:27]	Enkidu Linden:	that's a great avatar
[11:27]	Jonathan Yap:	Thanks. Chantal Harvey used 10 of them to enter a sesame street contest for new characters
[11:27]	Jonathan Yap:	1..10 eyes
[11:27]	Enkidu Linden:	excellent!
[11:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	It is yes, very cool
[11:28]	Enkidu Linden:	i like how the eyes are like kermit's
[11:29]	Enkidu Linden:	so, web stuff!
[11:29]	Jonathan Yap:	I've been quite surprised how many comments I get about this avatar
[11:29]	Jonathan Yap:	Yes, where is everyone?
[11:29]	Enkidu Linden:	Beaumont was restarted
[11:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Talking about avatars, before AWG was even founded, LL and IBM jointly released a press statement about "portable avatars" as the public face of a joint effort on interop. Coming up to 3 years later, there isn't even the slightest intention or interest in SL having avatar portability. You can see why I'm frustrated, Enki
[11:31]	Enkidu Linden:	indeed, that would be irritating
[11:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Might be an idea if you started on a web-related topic, or we'll end uptalking about interop. :-)
[11:31]	Enkidu Linden:	haha
[11:31]	Enkidu Linden:	good advice!
[11:32]	Enkidu Linden:	tell you what, since it's just the two of you i'll try to keep it in the viewer realm
[11:32]	Jonathan Yap:	I'm game, hopefully a few more show up
[11:32]	Enkidu Linden:	viewer/web that is
[11:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sounds great
[11:34]	Enkidu Linden:	so last week i mentioned that it turns out we don't have good instrumentation of webkit in 2.0
[11:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Love instrumentation. (Trained as an engineer)
[11:34]	Enkidu Linden:	that was a bummer for me but at least they're planning to add it, and i was able to emphasize its importance
[11:34]	Jonathan YapJonathan	Yap nods head
[11:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Which areas of instrumentation are of main interest to you Enki?
[11:35]	Enkidu Linden:	it's not really a total loss though; we do some instrumentation using javascript tools. they just aren't as fine-grained
[11:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	In webkit I mean
[11:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	What data do the JS tools currently provide?
[11:36]	Enkidu Linden:	timing, but rather granular
[11:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Machiel
[11:37]	Machiel Menges:	hi
[11:37]	Enkidu Linden:	one thing we can't do is detect browser paints and reflows beyond the timing impact
[11:37]	Enkidu Linden:	but chrome 5's speedtracer extension can do this, so i know it's possible in webkit
[11:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	KK, just total time for page complewtion?
[11:37]	Machiel Menges:	you talk about http ?
[11:37]	Jonathan Yap:	Do you rewrite parts of webkit to make it more efficient?
[11:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Machiel: Enkidu's speciality is web services
[11:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	(I think :P)
[11:38]	Machiel Menges:	ah ok.
[11:38]	Enkidu Linden:	i believe they've made some tweaks to work it into the context of the viewer but i don't have details on exactly what
[11:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Is that data available somewhere in the viewer, in Advanced menu?
[11:39]	Enkidu Linden:	i think we can safely expect the viewer's webkit implementation to act like safari 4 in most cases
[11:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	I don't know speedtracer, I'll try to get it.
[11:40]	Machiel Menges:	i have a idea, but dont know this is the right place to ask.
[11:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Don't really know my way around Chromium
[11:41]	Enkidu Linden:	go ahead, machiel
[11:41]	Machiel Menges:	is there a way to see the textures you have in the inventory on a website so you can choose a right texture more easely
[11:41]	Enkidu Linden:	not that i know of
[11:42]	Machiel Menges:	i have over 10.000 textures and its a pain to search the right one from the inventory allone
[11:42]	Jonathan Yap:	Improved inventory ideas were talked about at Q's meeting yesterday
[11:42]	Enkidu Linden:	this seems to come up weekly for me, too
[11:42]	Machiel Menges:	yes i know but my question wasnt awner there
[11:43]	Enkidu Linden:	my own inventory is turning into quite a mess, so i feel your pain
[11:43]	Jonathan Yap:	I guess that brings up the old issue of permission to export textures
[11:44]	Machiel Menges:	would be great to have a complete inventory shown webbased
[11:44]	Enkidu Linden:	did Q mention having the viewer consume a web component for that? if so i'd imagine it'd end up on my radar sooner or later
[11:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	It also brings up the issue of SL having painted itself into a corner on permissions.
[11:45]	Machiel Menges:	not that i know of
[11:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	"consume" == "use" ?
[11:45]	Jonathan Yap:	hmmm, since many textures come from a web page maybe there should be a way to note the url and do an upload from that, saving the url internally
[11:46]	Machiel Menges:	sound great
[11:46]	Enkidu Linden:	yes, morgaine
[11:46]	Machiel Menges:	and you can better organise your textures ojn a website
[11:47]	Honour McMillan:	really? I'm trying to picture it and not succeeding :)
[11:47]	Jonathan Yap:	Something that might help is when http texture loading is turned on
[11:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well VWRAP is heading in the direction of decoupled asset services, so your inventory will effectively be local references to remote assets that could be anywhere. The "anywhere" might be on a WebDAV server somewhere, or even on your own PC if you choose to run a service hosting your assets there.
[11:47]	Jonathan Yap:	in the server, then things will come in faster
[11:48]	Enkidu Linden:	i love that idea
[11:48]	Machiel Menges:	that like algebra for me. i am only a user but i like the idea
[11:49]	Enkidu Linden:	what hapens if someone hosts textures on their pc, the textures are used in objects in world, and the pc is off?
[11:49]	Machiel Menges:	the linden servers should store the UUID when uploaded
[11:50]	Jonathan Yap:	And most(?) pc connections do not have the upstream capacity to act as a server
[11:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	If those assets are visible to others, that implies that the region in which others see the assets knows about them, because the region is giving at the very least the REST addresses of those assets to other particupants in the region.
[11:51]	Machiel Menges:	and download to your own pc to organise and manage. then directly uplead to lindenserver for use inworld?
[11:51]	Enkidu Linden:	so the region could act as a caching proxy?
[11:51]	Jonathan Yap:	Machiel, do you want textures on a web page to look at because they are so slow to load?
[11:51]	Jonathan Yap:	Load in sl, that is?
[11:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	Whether the assets themselves are cached by the region is a deployment option. VWRAP has a strict policy of providing mechanisms only, and not prescribing particular deployments. :-)
[11:51]	Machiel Menges:	and because i have to many to choose from
[11:52]	Machiel Menges:	everytime dubbleclick from invent. to see what texture it really is
[11:52]	Machiel Menges:	would be better to have a overview of all textures inworld or webbased
[11:52]	Enkidu Linden:	cool
[11:52]	Enkidu Linden:	that is a good policy
[11:54]	Jonathan Yap:	Machiel, I would suggest dropping Q a note card, some way to get / see faster previews of textures, maybe some kind of snapshot function you could trigger
[11:54]	Machiel Menges:	ok i will
[11:54]	Machiel Menges:	thx
[11:54]	Enkidu Linden:	i often find myself suggesting similar policy to other developers when i see them writing routines that try to do too much for the client
[11:54]	Jonathan Yap:	If you were an ace programmer you could modify a viewer to do it in some fashion
[11:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	I expect that good quality world providers will provide caching so that their residents don't suffer the poor access that'll result from inadequate connectivity to distributed assets services. On the other hand that has a cost associated with it, and so other world providers will omit it, and provide a cheaper service that's more at the mercy of the distributed asset storage.
[11:55]	Enkidu Linden:	so, since we only have a few minutes, back to instrumentation
[11:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cool
[11:56]	Enkidu Linden:	(yes - right tool for the context)
[11:56]	Enkidu Linden:	the reflow/paint stuff isn't usually a problem, but when it is, it hurts
[11:56]	Enkidu Linden:	so we'd like to know when we're hurting
[11:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	I installed the Speedtracer extension, btw :-)
[11:57]	Enkidu Linden:	oh cool! well, play with it a little bit and you'll know exactly why i want that information from the viewer's webkit
[11:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe, kk
[11:58]	Enkidu Linden:	the other thing we'd like to know, and this is perhaps more important to me, is the request waterfall
[11:58]	Enkidu Linden:	in chrome and safari you can see it in the Web Inspector
[11:59]	Enkidu Linden:	long load times are often a function of the waterfall
[11:59]	Enkidu Linden:	which itself reflects your design choices
[11:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	"Waterfall" is the request/response protocol flow piccie?
[11:59]	Jonathan Yap:	Is it multi-threaded?
[12:01]	Enkidu Linden:	http://www.phpied.com/free-falling-waterfalls/
[12:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ta
[12:01]	Enkidu Linden:	this has some waterfall pics
[12:01]	Enkidu Linden:	i'm not sure 'waterfall' is standard nomenclature
[12:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ah yeah
[12:01]	Enkidu Linden:	i'm not sure there is standard nomenclature
[12:02]	Enkidu Linden:	actually, check this out: http://stevesouders.com/cuzillion/
[12:03]	Enkidu Linden:	you can use that to concoct 'design choices' and then see how bad the choices are
[12:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Reminds me of the timeslice analysis I did in my multiprocessing research. The machines weren't local, so on my visits to the hosting sites I'd capture microtimings of *everything*, and then process variable slices of time once back home to see what was going on. Very waterfallish
[12:03]	Enkidu Linden:	i'm quoting myself of course. yikes
[12:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	The best way, it's certain to be consistent with what you cite :P
[12:05]	Enkidu Linden:	'waterfall' probably isn't the best term since it connotes some natural beauty
[12:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hahaha
[12:05]	Ardy Lay:	Oh wow. I wasn't expecting people to be here at the moment. :-)
[12:05]	Enkidu Linden:	but 'the hell you've perpetrated on the rest of the world' is too long
[12:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	You can have waterfalls of efluent too you know :P
[12:05]	Jonathan Yap:	Meeting relocated
[12:06]	Enkidu Linden:	good point
[12:06]	Enkidu Linden:	'sewage outfall' it is
[12:06]	Honour McMillan:	lol
[12:06]	Enkidu Linden:	ok, i think we're out of time
[12:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Maybe I shouldn't have volunteered that image
[12:07]	Jonathan Yap:	Thank yo uEnkidu
[12:07]	Honour McMillan:	I'll try to make it ontime for the next one :)
[12:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cheers Enki, have a good weekend :-)
[12:07]	Enkidu Linden:	hopefully we can stay in one place for the hour next week!
[12:07]	Enkidu Linden:	thank you all for coming!
[12:07]	Enkidu Linden:	see you, guys

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