User:Enus Linden/Office Hours/2008 October 10

• Nadia Lutwak: yes i've set one up already, but just wanted to confirm things before going ahead with anything
• [9:25] Nadia Lutwak: okay, that's great
• [9:25] Tao Takashi: yo
• [9:26] Enus Linden: try signing up a new account against an email address already used, and see what happens :)
• [9:26] Enus Linden: or i can do the same later
• [9:26] Enus Linden: hi Tao!
• [9:26] Tao Takashi: how's things?
• [9:26] Nadia Lutwak: yes, will do. Thanks Enus! Also.. do you have any tips on scripting bots? what to use.. how to go about it?
• [9:27] Enus Linden: see [1]
• [9:27] Nadia Lutwak: lol, thx
• [9:27] Enus Linden: pyogp is not yet ready for bots the way you want them to be used
• [9:27] Nadia Lutwak: i see
• [9:27] Nadia Lutwak: okay, thanks again!
• [9:27] Enus Linden: and as far as tips: i dunno, have someone get very familiar with the code
• [9:27] Enus Linden: and i am always happy to help
• [9:28] Tao Takashi: Hey Tess!
• [9:28] Tess Linden: hey :)
• [9:28] Enus Linden: but the libomv(libsl devs) can help too. they are available on irc
• [9:28] Sea Urchin: beanbag: Going to next texture.
• [9:28] Sea Urchin: beanbag: Going to next texture.
• [9:28] Sea Urchin: beanbag: Going to next texture.
• [9:28] Enus Linden: hi tess!
• [9:28] Enus Linden: later nadia!
• [9:29] Enus Linden: so i've got 30 minutes max today... bart was messed up and i am home, needing to get to the city tho
• [9:29] Enus Linden:  :(
• [9:29] Tess Linden: Enus, your office hours start in 1 minute right?
• [9:29] Enus Linden: right tess
• [9:29] Tess Linden: k, just wanted to make sure I didnt miss it
• [9:29] Enus Linden: nope
• [9:29] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :)
• [9:30] Tao Takashi: Hi Dahlia!
• [9:30] Enus Linden: so the topic i'd like to bring u pis further discussion on what we started the other day Tao, which is use of pyogp in other apps and the need for zope.component and interface, and the grok modules
• [9:30] Enus Linden: hi dahlia!
• [9:30] Enus Linden: Tao: a dev asked to use pyogp.lib.base.message to help with unit tests
• [9:31] Enus Linden: they are to a degree bothered by the zca/grok stuff
• [9:31] Enus Linden: and wondered how to go about dealing with them
• [9:31] Tao Takashi: what are they bothered about? how to use it?
• [9:32] Tao Takashi: and what do they want to do? they want to use this part of the lib in another app?
• [9:32] Sea Urchin: beanbag: Going to next texture.
• [9:32] Enus Linden: having to add 5 + modules to many many many machine images when they are largely unknown to them
• [9:33] Enus Linden: and yes, use svn:externals or something to put the package in the right location, and use the lib to do work in testing other things
• [9:33] Enus Linden: e.g. build a packet on the fly and have other code operate with that
• [9:33] Tao Takashi: once it's released it shouldn't be an external but simply a reference to an egg
• [9:33] Enus Linden: right, but for now externals will do...
• [9:33] Tao Takashi: it comes down to the old discussion: reusing what other people have done or recreating everything ourselves
• [9:33] Tao Takashi: right
• [9:34] Tao Takashi: and all you need to do is to call init() usually
• [9:34] Tao Takashi: as it's done in interop
• [9:35] Enus Linden: so, should I investigate what it would take to get the modules available to the python instance?
• [9:35] Enus Linden: the alternative to using pyogp as it is, would be to remove zca from a separate version of the codebase for internal use
• [9:35] Tao Takashi: you mean the dependant modules?
• [9:35] Enus Linden: yes tao
• [9:35] Tao Takashi: easy_install <module name>
• [9:36] Tao Takashi: either in a virtualenv (then it's local to that instance) or globally
• [9:36] Tao Takashi: or using buildout, then it's local to the buildout
• [9:36] Enus Linden: globally is what we're working with in this case
• [9:36] Tao Takashi: well, as long as this is the only app running on the system I guess it's fine but we usually go for a local installation
• [9:37] Tao Takashi: so to run it without the buildout etc. you might want to download the pyogp.lib.base and call python setup.py develop
• [9:37] Tao Takashi: this will put a link into your pyhon installation
• [9:37] Tao Takashi: and activates the package
• [9:38] Tao Takashi: and all dependant ones, too
• [9:38] Enus Linden: what does this activation mean?
• [9:38] Tao Takashi: it does it put into your pythonpath
• [9:38] Tao Takashi: into the global one
• [9:38] Tao Takashi: in site-packages/
• [9:38] Enus Linden: i see. i believe i have that handled otherwise
• [9:38] Enus Linden: i'll make sure
• [9:38] Tao Takashi: well, I haven't tested it for now
• [9:38] Tao Takashi: but you can do so in a new virtualenv
• [9:39] Tao Takashi: then you can look inside lib/python/site-packages what it has done
• [9:39] Tao Takashi: and this is what will happen globally if done outside a venv
• [9:39] Enus Linden: tess: how hard is it to get modules added to our python image?
• [9:39] Tao Takashi: need to be run as root of course
• [9:40] Tao Takashi: I am testing it right now
• [9:40] Tao Takashi: it mighth be that some requirements are missing in setup.py in the lib
• [9:40] Tao Takashi: they might need to get added
• [9:41] Tao Takashi: and I hope you have your own python installation and not using a system one, that's always asking for trouble
• [9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: hey nt quite here yet sorry
• [9:41] Tess Linden: it would take some ops wrangling
• [9:41] Enus Linden: how so tao?
• [9:41] Tao Takashi: well, you never know what is installed
• [9:41] Enus Linden: Tess: I couldn't check it out on a station, yes?
• [9:42] Tao Takashi: might be version conflicts etc.
• [9:42] Tao Takashi: that's the whole reason why people invented things like virtualenv and buildout
• [9:42] Enus Linden: right Tao. i only peripherally watch, but it seems to me that ops is pretty tight about what is installed where,
• [9:42] Enus Linden: at least on machines where this is relevant
• [9:43] Tess Linden: enus: you mean having the library as part of the linden branch?
• [9:43] Tao Takashi: ok, seems to work
• [9:43] Tess Linden: so that when you run tests it can utilize the libs?
• [9:43] Tao Takashi: I created a new virtualenv, svn co pyogp.lib.base in there and called python setup.py develop
• [9:43] Tao Takashi: after that I had login in bin/ and it seems to work
• [9:43] Tao Takashi: the same should work in a global install
• [9:43] Enus Linden: ok tao, thanks for checking
• [9:44] Tao Takashi: one requirement is missing in the setup.py though
• [9:44] Tao Takashi: I add that now
• [9:44] Tao Takashi: indra.base that is
• [9:44] Enus Linden: tess: more along the lines of getting zope.interface and zope.component (and some others) added to the system image python libs
• [9:44] Tao Takashi: but there is a caveat: It will take indra.base from pypi which is my frozen version of it
• [9:44] Tao Takashi: so it might be an older version
• [9:44] Enus Linden: getting pyogp available to the checkout can be done otherwise
• [9:44] Tao Takashi: maybe I leave the requirement out and we assume you have it installed
• [9:45] Tao Takashi: you can also use python setup.py bdist_egg
• [9:45] Tess Linden: ah, ok my first answer stands then. ops will have to approve it
• [9:45] Tao Takashi: then it will create an egg out of pyogp.lib.base which is one file you can move around
• [9:45] Tao Takashi: and install it again with
• [9:45] Enus Linden: right tess. thanks. i'll check in with them
• [9:45] Tao Takashi: easy_install <filename>
• [9:45] Tao Takashi: on the destination
• [9:46] Enus Linden: ok tao. i'll see what i end up needing
• [9:46] Enus Linden: what i'd like to avoid, is having devs take this code, and remove what they don't like (zca) and using that
• [9:46] Tao Takashi: but we also rely on things like webob and wsgireg (for testing)
• [9:46] Enus Linden: right tao.
• [9:47] Tess Linden: they will have to consider whether they want to maintain that library and what it will be used for
• [9:47] Enus Linden: perhaps we should publish a list of all dependencies
• [9:47] Tao Takashi: it's in setup.py
• [9:47] Enus Linden: thanks
• [9:47] Tao Takashi: or should be at least
• [9:47] Enus Linden:  :)
• [9:47] Tao Takashi: as said, indra.base is not in there right now
• [9:47] Tao Takashi: because you don't publish new eggs when you change something at the moment
• [9:47] Tao Takashi: not sure if indra has some release process anyway
• [9:47] Enus Linden: nor am i tao
• [9:48] Enus Linden: ok, i think i have enough to go on
• [9:48] Enus Linden: tess, anything to add?
• [9:48] Tao Takashi: but I am still happy to help if LL wants to make them official eggs :)
• [9:48] Tao Takashi: instead of my once frozen status which is up on pypi right now
• [9:48] Enus Linden:  :)
• [9:49] Enus Linden: what else might we discuss in the remaining 10 minutes i have?
• [9:49] Tao Takashi: and LL should consider buildout, it's useful :)
• [9:49] Tao Takashi: I can say that I looked at Sai's code
• [9:49] Tao Takashi: and created a proper package out of it
• [9:49] Tao Takashi: so you don't need the pythonpath thingies in front
• [9:49] Enus Linden: cool tao, i say you talking in irc with him
• [9:49] Tao Takashi: I also created some documentation on how to do it
• [9:50] Tao Takashi: it's sitting on my cmpt at home, will finish it later and maybe put it up on svn (discussing with Sai first of course)
• [9:50] Enus Linden: cool tao
• [9:50] Tao Takashi: Sai: and it works also for me :)
• [9:50] Tess Linden: nope, just listening :) and offering any answers when I can
• [9:50] Tao Takashi: well, cool Saijanai! :)
• [9:51] Tao Takashi: now I only need to understand what he's doing there ;-)
• [9:51] Enus Linden: sai: awesome work. i ran it. once. nifty
• [9:51] Enus Linden: i'm with ya on the understanding part :)
• [9:52] Tao Takashi: I only glanced at it though
• [9:52] Enus Linden: dahlia, phillip, got anything for us?
• [9:52] Tao Takashi: I hope we can at some point in the future make this very short :)
• [9:52] Tao Takashi: and narrative
• [9:52] Phillip Vought: I have a question.. although its a shift from the current python convos.. The current QA cycle.. assuming its not an emergency.. whats the lifecycle?
• [9:52] Enus Linden: i don't mind shifting topics
• [9:52] Dahlia Trimble: I'm just here listening... but i did bet my prim code running in pyov
• [9:53] Tao Takashi: Dahlia: I heard about some code you wrote, what exactly is it? :)
• [9:53] Enus Linden: so qa cycle: it depends on the project and the component that project is addressing
• [9:53] Dahlia Trimble: its a mesher for SL™ prims
• [9:53] Tao Takashi: and what is a mesher? :)
• [9:53] Phillip Vought: So you dont run tied releases.. its team based and dependent on resource allocation?
• [9:53] Enus Linden: phillip, do you want to know like timelines, process, stages, what?
• [9:54] Dahlia Trimble: it creates 3d geometry
• [9:54] Phillip Vought: Enus.. I'm a ProjMgr IRL.. so sorry.. yea.. its what I do
• [9:54] Enus Linden: ah. correct phillip.
• [9:54] Enus Linden: viewer and server are *generally* separate paths
• [9:54] Tao Takashi: you don't need to be sorry to ba a ProjMgr :)
• [9:54] Enus Linden: hehehehe
• [9:54] Phillip Vought: Gotcha.. that'll help me understand the issues.. and development cycles
• [9:55] Enus Linden: philip, wanna catch up later and talk in depth?
• [9:55] Phillip Vought: surrounded by top coders.. yes I do :)
• [9:55] Phillip Vought: Would love to
• [9:55] Tao Takashi: Dahlia: so it takes what and procudes what? :) I guess it takes SL prims
• [9:55] Enus Linden: cool. i'll be around later today, lets try then, or at least set up a time to chat later
• [9:55] Phillip Vought: Enus.. I'll drop you a notecard .. you're in Cali?
• [9:56] Dahlia Trimble: it takes descriptions of prims such as what comes across in a prim create packet, and creates 3d geometry so it can be displayed in a viewer
• [9:56] Dahlia Trimble: opensim uses it for physics
• [9:56] Tao Takashi: ah, ic
• [9:56] Enus Linden: phillip: ok, and yes :)
• [9:56] Enus Linden: i need to run, to try and get to the office by 11.
• [9:56] Dahlia Trimble: its written in python anc c#, but I can use either version if I use pythonnet
• [9:57] Tess Linden: thanks Enus!
• [9:57] Dahlia Trimble: ty enus :)
• [9:57] Tao Takashi: thanks, Enus! :)
• [9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: looks like he missed part of an interesting meeting (morning)
• [9:57] Enus Linden: thanks all. dahlia, i wnat to see sometime btw :)
• [9:57] Dahlia Trimble: sure :)
• [9:57] Phillip Vought: Well.. I have a business appointment. Nice to meet you all :)
• [9:57] Enus Linden: waves
• [9:57] Tao Takashi: Dahlia: I'd need something which can render a SL scene in plain python ;-)
• [9:57] Tao Takashi: Sai: I will come back to you in IRC later
• [9:58] Tao Takashi: I also have to run as I need to get home
• [9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: KK if someone has the first 10 minutes of the meeting in note card will post to wiki
• [9:58] Dahlia Trimble: I wasnt planning on releasing the python version. I just use it for prototyping
• [9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: Dahlia did you sayyouused pyogp with your code ?
• [9:58] Dahlia Trimble: its getting complex and I dont want to maintain 2 versions
• [9:59] Dahlia Trimble: no, its separate from pyogp
• [9:59] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK
• [9:59] Dahlia Trimble: but I was thinking of interfacing it to pyogp
• [9:59] Dahlia Trimble: and maybe using it to render a scene in blender
• [9:59] Dahlia Trimble: but I have it working in pyov now
• [9:59] Saijanai Kuhn: pyov...
• [10:00] Dahlia Trimble: python openviewer
• [10:00] Tao Takashi: I think you need to stand up, I cannot drop the notecard on you, Sai ;-)
• [10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK, so python shell over libsl?
• [10:00] Tao Takashi: gave you Transcript Enus 2008/10/10.
• [10:00] Tao Takashi: thanks :)
• [10:00] Dahlia Trimble: it uses pythonnet, libsl, wxpython and pyogre
• [10:01] Dahlia Trimble: and now my mesher code
• [10:02] Tao Takashi: well, as long as it's some library I guess some app could use it
• [10:02] Tao Takashi: never looked at pyogre, maybe I should :)
• [10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: wondering at whether or not we should use pyogre as rendering engine in pyogp
• [10:02] Dahlia Trimble: pretty nice so far
• [10:02] Tao Takashi: I think that's probably up the application but having some support libs you can use might be useful
• [10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: how fast would it be, fps-wise, do you think?
• [10:03] Tao Takashi: so what can you render at the moment?
• [10:03] Dahlia Trimble: the demos have some astonishing frame rates
• [10:03] Dahlia Trimble: pyov is still having frame rate problems. but it's probably an error somewhere
• [10:04] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, I guess its a matter of whatever stuff has to be done in python to get pyogre compoatible with the SL scene and object doata
• [10:05] Saijanai Kuhn: which can always get pushed down into generic C/C++ and wrapped with python, at sopme point if need be
• [10:05] Tao Takashi: sure, although that's maybe not that trivial or a small job
• [10:06] Tao Takashi: well, I also gotta go unfortunately but it's great to see so many cool projects people work on :)
• [10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: oh yeah, but if I could implement it in python, I'm pretty sure I can reimplement in C/C++ (python stuff like dictionaries could be done using the LLSD stuff in the viewer as a model).
• [10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: notto say I could implement it in python in the first place, fo course... ;-)
• [10:07] Tao Takashi:  :-)
• [10:07] Tao Takashi: cya later on IRC!
• [10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: laters