Difference between revisions of "User:Oz Linden/Office Hours Archive 2010-06-08"

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Revision as of 03:54, 16 June 2010

List of Attendees

Transcript

[07:27] Oz Linden: Hi everyone
[07:27] Aleric Inglewood: /me looks at perl and detects an IQ of 0.
[07:27] Techwolf Lupindo: Yes. Let Oz find out the hard way just how the sionChicken are loved. :-D
[07:27] Oz Linden: No, perl is an Austrailian Shepherd, so if anything it will be sheep farming :-)
[07:28] Mojito Sorbet: Sion Sheep. Just what SL needs
[07:28] Aleric Inglewood: Wow, you're the first adult avie that has a realistic height in SL.
[07:28] Measure heights: whispers: Oz Linden is 1.87 meter tall.
[07:28] Oz Linden: I used to work exclusively at home, and shared my RL home office with my 3 dogs... missed them.
[07:28] Greeting Ardy .
[07:29] Techwolf Lupindo: I grew up with critters...missed them tool
[07:29] Techwolf Lupindo: -l
[07:29] Greeting Mojito .
[07:29] Aleric Inglewood: You're still gray
[07:29] Oz Linden: who is?
[07:29] Aleric Inglewood: You sir
[07:29] Oz Linden: I look fine to me...
[07:29] Techwolf Lupindo: Oz is. Need to go into apearence and then out again.
[07:29] Aleric Inglewood: hit controlshift-R :)
[07:29]
[07:30] Mojito Sorbet: ctrl-alt-R
[07:30] Oz Linden: /me rebaking...
[07:30] Oz Linden: any better?
[07:30] Mojito Sorbet: not yet
[07:30] Aleric Inglewood: yes - ... one of the major downsides of how SL was implemented is that the "shared experience" is often an illusion, and others see different things than you think they see.
[07:30] Mojito Sorbet: Ok now
[07:30] Aleric Inglewood: Yes, now it's ok :)
[07:31] Mojito Sorbet: I went to a lot of trouble making my height 5'10" by all the meters I could find, thinking that would make me taller than averge. Turns out Im not. :)
[07:32]
[07:33] Aleric Inglewood: The average woman in SL is 2.10m. The average men is 2.21m (only averaged over 20 or so that I measured at random)... And to make things worse, they use a head that is way too small.
[07:33] Oz Linden: 5'10" isn't especially tall in RL, but I've noticed most people are tall here
[07:33] Techwolf Lupindo: Even though it just us here in this regine, something is lagging it hevelly. Seeing TD spikes of .5 every 5 seconds.
[07:33] Mojito Sorbet: Some think it is because the camera position is so far above and behind
[07:33] Mojito Sorbet: Gives an incorrect perspective
[07:34] Mojito Sorbet: And then people have to make houses huge, so the camera will fit inside
[07:34] Techwolf Lupindo: The pre-2.0 viewer defaulted to ..ummm... 6 foot for female and 7 foot for males.
[07:34] Aleric Inglewood: That is indeed a reason, but indirect I think: because of the camera, the houses and rooms are very very large... and therefore the chairs and beds etc are very large... but, more importantly I think is simply that most want to be taller than the rest.
[07:34] Ardy Lay: Script time is way high during those mements.
[07:35] Mojito Sorbet: For an empty sim, the Time DIalation behaves oddly
[07:35] Aleric Inglewood: When does your office hour start?
[07:36] Techwolf Lupindo: To fix it, need to defult to first person view, but can see part of there body, like arms and so on. Similer to video games. Fix the defult hight to normal hights.
[07:36] Oz Linden: Six minutes ago
[07:36] Mojito Sorbet: Being in mouselook gives you an entirely different "perspective" on things. haha
[07:36] Oz Linden: which reminds me, I need to set an alarm for the end (have another meeting)
[07:36] Aleric Inglewood: Oh at half-hour - most start at a whole-hour :)
[07:36] Ambient Moderation Orb 4.1: Talking to the magical moderation machine to see if there's a new version of me...
[07:37] Ambient Moderation Orb 4.1: Time set to 50.000000 minutes.
[07:37] Moderation Scribe: No mail_to set! Cannot transcribe!
[07:37] Techwolf Lupindo: One thing I was going to metchine to you Oz. For the upcomming Open Source Hour later today, try to grap some 2.0 devolopers that are working on the area Aleric and Thickbrick are working on. There is some question about if there work will be accecpted upstream.
[07:38] Oz Linden: which areas are those?
[07:38] Mojito Sorbet: When has SG work ever been accepted upstream?
[07:38] Techwolf Lupindo: I just woke up a while ago. Let me find the jiras....
[07:38] Oz Linden: Accepting more is a big agenda item of mine
[07:38] Aleric Inglewood: Only really small patches, or when lobbied directly by merov of Rob Linden imho
[07:38] Mojito Sorbet: That would go a long way toward improving morale
[07:39] Oz Linden: /me can't find his mediation rug... got to clean out the inventory
[07:39] Aleric Inglewood: Oz: how long have you been using SL before you joined LL?
[07:39] Greeting Ambient .
[07:39] Mojito Sorbet: 26 days in world, and already his inventory is too confusing? haha
[07:39] Oz Linden: Not long at all... I set up my first account a couple of years ago, but hardly used it at all
[07:40] Oz Linden: then started playing a bit again just a couple of months before I joined Linden
[07:40] Mojito Sorbet: Augh! he said the word!
[07:40]
[07:40] Oz Linden: yes... it's clear that I need to exercise some discipline about that :-)
[07:40] Oz Linden: (which word?)
[07:40] Mojito Sorbet: "play"
[07:41] Oz Linden: ah... by that I mean that I had no particular goal in mind... perhaps 'experimenting' would have been a better word
[07:41] Mojito Sorbet: Oh, that would be ok
[07:41]
[07:41] Mojito Sorbet: Its a two sided coin
[07:41] Mojito Sorbet: The residents do not think of SL as a game. The immersed ones, that is.
[07:42] Aleric Inglewood: Ok, so you know not much about the big political decision/changes that LL made, that upset the population time and time again, making most people mad and protest-- only to be totally ignored (well, there was always forums where a Linden would post "we are reading it all!" every now and then, but never any change in the decision that was apparently set in stone by a manage that did NOT read that forum) ?
[07:42] Mojito Sorbet: But on the other hand, SL is primarily an entertainment medium
[07:42] Oz Linden: I've noticed that there are different schools of thought on that... some use 'play' regularly, some seem to find it off-putting
[07:42] Mojito Sorbet: Yes.
[07:42] Mojito Sorbet: You need to understand the two viewpoitns. "Immersionists" vs the "Augmentalists"
[07:43] Mojito Sorbet: They really come into SL with different goals
[07:43] Oz Linden: /me notes those labels
[07:43] Aleric Inglewood: Over time I've learned to literally hate LL. And as far as I know that is the general feeling among the people :/
[07:43] Mojito Sorbet: You will find endless debates on it
[07:43] Mojito Sorbet: :)
[07:43] Oz Linden: Aleric... changing the culture will take some time
[07:43] Mojito Sorbet: No more than one "hates" Microsoft...
[07:43] Aleric Inglewood: Yes, it's like with microsoft
[07:44] Aleric Inglewood: a very very bad name
[07:44] Mojito Sorbet: But icrosoft now has competition, and so does LL
[07:44] Oz Linden: Well, frankly that strikes me as an unproductive attitude (and probably not really true, or you wouldn't be here)
[07:44] Mojito Sorbet: hmm, nobody coming?
[07:45] Aleric Inglewood: I'm trying to tell you something that maybe others wouldn't :p
[07:45] Oz Linden: Oh, that's no mystery
[07:45] Oz Linden: ... and I understand quite a lot of what has brought us to where we are
[07:45] Oz Linden: ... and some of how to make things better
[07:46]
[07:46] Aleric Inglewood: Anyway, I think, it is directly related to how we, as open source coders, perceive the 'internal' development department.
[07:46] Oz Linden: perl bad
[07:46]
[07:47] Aleric Inglewood: If we write a lot of patches, and then 2.0 is released with lots of changes that most of us hate and almost without any of the bug fixes that we worked on so hard - then that clicks with all the other experience we had with LL, where they ignore users and do exactly and only what they want and came up with. So, it's related.
[07:48] Mojito Sorbet: That is the whole "upstream" process Oz said he wants to fix
[07:48] Oz Linden: I see a big part of my mission as getting LL devs and product managers to be more open about future developments, so that work can be more cooperative
[07:48] Oz Linden: Ok... so what do you suggest, Aleric ?
[07:49] Oz Linden: many of those patches don't apply cleanly now
[07:49] Oz Linden: history can't be changed.
[07:49] Techwolf Lupindo: The current roadmap for imporoments and bug fixes is two years overdue. All the current complaints of today are on the roadmap to being fixed, but those same compaints was two years ago and there was no roadmap to getting them fixed.
[07:49] Oz Linden: Sorry... which roadmap are you referring to, Tech?
[07:50] Techwolf Lupindo: The informal one. No one made a chart yet.
[07:50] Aleric Inglewood: I have no suggestions currently (other than what I already mailed: reinstate my trust in the internal devs by catching up with the backlog they created) (pardon if my English is bad)
[07:51] Aleric Inglewood: I'm just glad that you are here... maybe things will improve now, and I'm here cause I'd like to help if possible (ie, by giving you my view and opinion on things).
[07:51] Oz Linden: Well, Aleric, you'll be glad to hear that I've made it a high priority for my (very small) team to do just that
[07:51] Techwolf Lupindo: I have to go digging into some old OH logs to find all the major issues that a Linden did address will be looked at or fixed in xxxx time.
[07:51]
[07:52] Techwolf Lupindo: Plus I woke up an hour ago....still need caffene. :-)
[07:52] Oz Linden: some of the patches I'd most like to take are from people who have not submitted a Contribution Agreement yet.... that gets in the way
[07:52] Mojito Sorbet: The terms of the CA are one of the issues...
[07:53] Mojito Sorbet: And yes, it does get in the way
[07:53] Techwolf Lupindo: Try to get snowglobe 1.4 GPL only sence LL is not going to be working on that anymore. Would be intresting to see how that version turns out.
[07:53] Oz Linden: Well, I'm not going to pretend that I'm likely to change much there, but frankly I don't understand why people think it's a problem
[07:54] Aleric Inglewood: I'll be honest though - I don't think I'll ever start to like LL... There are too many things they do and did that are hurting :/ (as example, my best, very very close friend here in SL (and I LIVE here, I have no friends in RL) disappeared two weeks ago. He would never do that unless he is dead... His phone was never picked up and is now non-existing... I suffer a lot. The only one that can help me is Linden Lab by writing a letter to his snail mail address on my behalf, asking whatever family is left to contact me... LL refuses that.</offtopic>)
[07:54]
[07:54] Mojito Sorbet: Of course LL refuses to do that. They would get in big trouble
[07:54] Oz Linden: If I understand the TOS correctly, that would be a violation of the privacy provisions
[07:54] Mojito Sorbet: LL is not the police department
[07:55] Mojito Sorbet: exactly
[07:55] Greeting Imaze .
[07:55] Aleric Inglewood: I'm not asking for RL info. I'm just asking to write his family that there is very close online friend who want to know what happened. Hell, it would be enough if they (LL) found out if he was dead and then me yes or no he is dead. That is all.
[07:55] Oz Linden: My first girlfriend (long long ago) just stopped talking to me one day... went to the same school for 2 more years and I never did find out why... (still wonder)
[07:56] Aleric Inglewood: Oz: A misunderstand?
[07:56] Aleric Inglewood: *ing
[07:56] Oz Linden: no idea
[07:56] Imaze Rhiano: all linden offices should have chairs like this
[07:57] Oz Linden: Online privacy, _especially_ in a VW environment in which one explicity creates identities is pretty touchy stuff... LL needs to take a very very conservative approach
[07:57] Oz Linden: which one Imaze?
[07:57] Oz Linden: Oh yes... those are great
[07:58] Oz Linden: kind of high prim count, or I'd have more of them
[07:58] Oz Linden: I have the RL chair they are modelled on and I just _love_ it
[07:58] Oz Linden: perl good
[07:58]
[08:00] Aleric Inglewood: There are ways to improve SL greatly with a minimal of effort... but it is IMPOSSIBLE to get LL to change anything, when suggested by anyone outside LL imho. And I know how that works... if anything is proposed then it is shot down if there anyone with any suspicion that it might not work.
[08:00] Oz Linden: I'm trying to get a series of presentations together on some of the things LL is working on in a form we can share with open source devs
[08:00] Mojito Sorbet: That would be interesting
[08:00] Mojito Sorbet: Like mesh support
[08:00] Oz Linden: I'm going to make a suggestion on language....
[08:00] Oz Linden: try not to use terms that are absolute
[08:00] Oz Linden: "impossible" is a pretty good example
[08:00] Mojito Sorbet: Ah, poeple are arriving
[08:01] Oz Linden: Admittedly, it's been rare and difficult - much more so than it should have been
[08:01] Robin Cornelius: I'm lurking in the background
[08:01] Mojito Sorbet: "difficult" would be better. Then we can look at why it is diffcult
[08:01] Oz Linden: but "impossible" rules out any possiblity of change, and I got hired to make changes
[08:01] Oz Linden: Hi Robin
[08:01] Aleric Inglewood: In this context "impossible" means that it I have to make the decision not to even try it, because considering the chance / statistics involved it would on average be a waste of time.
[08:01] Oz Linden: Yes, exactly Mojito
[08:02]
[08:02] Oz Linden: What I'm trying to do, both inside and outside LL, is figure out what the barriers are
[08:02] Oz Linden: then I can try to change them
[08:03] Mojito Sorbet: The barriers are difficult to figure out form the outside. We can only speculate
[08:03] Oz Linden: One aspect is certainly that some Lindens are not used to open development, and assume that bringing in outsiders will confuse issues and end up slowing things down
[08:03] Oz Linden: (for example)
[08:03] Mojito Sorbet: Yes. I have heard exactly that expressed
[08:03] Imaze Rhiano: one big barrier is actually set by open simulator developers - they don't want to even touch with developers who have looked LL viewer code.
[08:04] Oz Linden: I happen to thing that's not usually true, but attitudes like that take time to change
[08:04] Techwolf Lupindo: Oz, as a new user, for some self-training, after the OH, find out what is causing this sim to have lag spikes.
[08:04] Mojito Sorbet: I think that is caused by a misunderstanding
[08:04] Oz Linden: yes, well those devs have made a choice that there's nothing much I can do about
[08:04] Mojito Sorbet: (Not the lag spikes - the OpenSim policy)
[08:05] Mojito Sorbet: Perhaps we can find out from the OpenSim project exactly WHY they have that policy.
[08:05] Imaze Rhiano: well... you should talk with them as Linden and try to clear out things - and if there is something - then possible to change contribution licence so that it is compatible with open simulator devs
[08:05] Oz Linden: That would be a good training task, Tech, but I've got a very full day
[08:05] Mojito Sorbet: We come back to the Contributor Policy. I have not looked at it, so I do not know what the issue is
[08:07] Robin Cornelius: There are 2 issues with the contributor policy, 1 is assigment of copyright to LL the 2nd is the patent clause
[08:07] Oz Linden: Another aspect that has certainly contributed to Lindens being reluctant to work with OS devs is that they have the perception that everyone on the outside shouts and throws a fit way too easily
[08:07] Mojito Sorbet: The throwing of fits is out of frustration
[08:07] Oz Linden: (LL has any amazingly mellow and non-confrontational internal culture - something I'm going to have watch out for myself)
[08:07] Aleric Inglewood: I have a lot of experience with open source projects (basically, I spent my life working on open source projects... I have no normal job)... I learned from that. One of the things that I learned is that when a group involved with a project is larger, they tend to be more conservative. Major changes (improvements) can only be made in the beginning when the group is (very) small.
[08:08] Oz Linden: Well, I think that there are some really good counter-examples to that Aleric
[08:08] Oz Linden: ... the linux kernel and perl being just two that come to mind
[08:08] Techwolf Lupindo: Perl is bad. ;-)
[08:08] Robin Cornelius: how is perl structured? the linux kernel clearly has a top down leadership structure?
[08:08] Aleric Inglewood: nod
[08:08] Aleric Inglewood: - the counter examples probably all had very clearly recognized leaders.
[08:08] Mojito Sorbet: There is a natural tendancy for progress to be slower in large project, just because the interdependencies cause innertia and risk of damage to increase.
[08:08] Mojito Sorbet: A proper modular design would help with that
[08:09] Aleric Inglewood: The projects I'm talking about had to make decisions as a group: general consensus.
[08:09] Techwolf Lupindo: Mojito, I've notice some re-facturing and work with the code to make it more that way.
[08:09] Oz Linden: Yes, certainly both of those are examples of strong central leadership, but in both cases the leaders see themselves more as coordinators than dictators
[08:09] Mojito Sorbet: General consesnsus is difficult to acheive when everything is a big ball of spaghetti
[08:09] Greeting Saijanai .
[08:10] Oz Linden: (careful, Tech - note the name of my dog :-) )
[08:10] Imaze Rhiano: perl come here :)
[08:10] Mojito Sorbet: For example, the OpenSim architecture of a lot of plug-in modules allows work to progress in smaller units, independently
[08:10] Oz Linden: Yes, more modular design is a very important feature, and one that I gather needs some attention here
[08:11] Techwolf Lupindo: I've played with beacons on my own time. To add a simple featrue, I have to touch 4 files and 6 different sections of the code just to add one beacon function.
[08:11] Mojito Sorbet: Q Linden has some ideas for that in the viewer, but I think that is an ever receding goal
[08:11] Robin Cornelius: i think the big one here is seperation of network/protocol from UI
[08:11] Mojito Sorbet: yes, a good example
[08:11] Oz Linden: So let me pose a question....
[08:12]
[08:12] Mojito Sorbet: Understand that this little group here is not a fair representative sample of potential SG contributors..
[08:12] Oz Linden: Suppose that we (collectively) were to make the software much more modular... with low level code common to every viewer, clear boundaries, etc....
[08:12] Techwolf Lupindo: Mojito, true. I"ve see old post of heavy ex-contrubitors that left in fustration.
[08:13] Oz Linden: shouts: ... how would you all feel about those low level and common components being subject to tighter restrictions (more review required, etc) ?
[08:13] Oz Linden: (oops... didn't mean to shout)
[08:13] Mojito Sorbet: Review required for what?
[08:13] Techwolf Lupindo: The TPV debacle drove away a group or two.
[08:14] Mojito Sorbet: Oh, for changes to the low level sytuff?
[08:14] Oz Linden: /my old IM client used ctl-enter to send... fingers need retraining)
[08:14] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, the benefits of modularity break down if the glue that holds them together changes too fast
[08:14] Oz Linden: Any commit in the low level common code
[08:14] Aleric Inglewood: I would have left too because of the TPV, if it wasn't because of hard work by lljoe and some changes (the first time I saw LL respond to outside protests)
[08:14]
[08:14] Saijanai Kuhn: what license would the low level code be under?
[08:15] Oz Linden: What license would you want?
[08:15] Imaze Rhiano: BSD
[08:15] Mojito Sorbet: That low level code would be common between all Linden Viewers?
[08:15] Imaze Rhiano: :P
[08:15] Techwolf Lupindo: I forget who, but someone contrubited some code to imporve the audio beacons. That hit some low level code and i'me not sure if it made it into 2.0 code base.
[08:15] Oz Linden: BSD isn't going to happen
[08:15] Saijanai Kuhn: there are people that would want to implement commercial viewers for private worlds, so something that would allow them to keep their proprietary code private
[08:15] Robin Cornelius: LGPL?
[08:16] Mojito Sorbet: A wise persopn once said to me, the way to get your ideas widely adopted is to first let go of them
[08:16] Oz Linden: If you study the legal issues around open source licensing, you'll find that commercial entities will always have problems with BSD-like licenses
[08:16] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, though APple manages somehow
[08:16] Mojito Sorbet: That is funny, because BSD licences are beleived to HELP use of code by commercial entities
[08:16] Mojito Sorbet: BSD being LESS restrictive then GPL
[08:16] Drew Dwi: is the modular idea something that has support internally ?
[08:17] Oz Linden: Yes
[08:17] Imaze Rhiano: I agree that lower level modules should be more carefully developed than application level modules - but what kind review process there would be for lower level components - or - would their official developement be limited for LL and limited number of Os devs?
[08:17] Mojito Sorbet: I know that Q has talked about such a modular scheme
[08:17]
[08:17] Drew Dwi: so the "core" would be clearly marked? can you expand on what you have in mind?
[08:17] Saijanai Kuhn: OZ, are you familiar with Morgain Dinova's multi-process viewer design?
[08:17] Techwolf Lupindo: Modular code helps licence issues as more then one licence can be used if done right. One reason plug-ins got so popular. Plug-ins can be lieced seperally from the code they plug into.
[08:17] Oz Linden: I've read some of Morgains posts on it, yes
[08:18] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, provided they are dynamic run-time plugins
[08:18] Robin Cornelius: I believe the basic structure that libomv has is what we should aim for for a core library that implements protocol etc. libomv nicely seperates the key components in to classes
[08:18] Mojito Sorbet: The Radegast viewer, which I contribute to, has such a plugin architecture.
[08:18] Oz Linden: Yes, my last project made very heavy use of plugin based design
[08:18] Saijanai Kuhn: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Multi-Process_Client_VAG_--_draft
[08:19] Aleric Inglewood: I'd be happy only(!) to work on a new viewer from scratch, when it was done completely in the open: one central repository that everyone worked on (including the LL devs). Thus, no more "upstream", like we have now.
[08:19] Techwolf Lupindo: Carefull, libomv is .NET and requres a interperter run. Plus .NET/C# has some patent issues that have never been legilly carefiedd by MS.
[08:19] Techwolf Lupindo: clarified that is
[08:19] Mojito Sorbet: RealXtend is exactly like that, Aleric
[08:19] Robin Cornelius: Tech i was talking about structure not actually taking the code
[08:19] Aleric Inglewood: Moj: yes, but they use BSD - and therefore don't want me to help them.
[08:19] Oz Linden: I don't know what the right governance structure would be... I'm still studying the issue and trying not to reach conclusions too soon
[08:19] Saijanai Kuhn: me, I'm hoping that Silicon Squeak takes off. No existing library will help me with that but it would be nice to raid the source code for algorithms
[08:19] Imaze Rhiano: Tech - if you write "Hello world" in any languge and market it to US - you are likely to break patent or two :P
[08:20] Mojito Sorbet: hmm I think RealXtend uses the MIT licence, but I could be wrong
[08:20] Mojito Sorbet: or Apache
[08:20] Oz Linden: I do know that I've run large common code projects before (dozens of products using 60-85% common code), and the methodologies are different
[08:21] Oz Linden: /me notes that we only have 10 minutes or so left
[08:21]
[08:21] Aleric Inglewood: [08:16] Drew Dwi: is the modular idea something that has support internally ? <--- Heh. I think Oz brings it up because it was tossed up internally, and he hopes we like it too :p.
[08:21] Mojito Sorbet: This thing here is a clock. I notice it has changed color
[08:21]
[08:22] Drew Dwi: is that something which is already planned for future 2.x releases?
[08:22] Aleric Inglewood: Oz has a new meeting in a few minutes
[08:22] Techwolf Lupindo: perl, no spam mode.
[08:22] Oz Linden: (right Mojito)
[08:22] Mojito Sorbet: Several months ago, Q Linden liked to talok about his modular plans. More recnetly he has stopped talking about it
[08:22] Robin Cornelius: back to lurking, i've got another RL meeting now
[08:23] Oz Linden: Robin - let's talk later about SL7B
[08:23] Saijanai Kuhn: see everyone at the groupies meeting. No idea what the topic is
[08:23] Mojito Sorbet: The viewer team is probably swamped trying to dig themselves out of the hole they created.
[08:23] Aleric Inglewood: I wrote a library once that could be 'glue' for the viewer.
[08:24] Oz Linden: I am trying to be careful still about what I talk about... mostly my thoughts on modularity and how it interacts with open code sharing and governance are things I though before I even joined LL
[08:24] Techwolf Lupindo: The current media plug-in should be expanded so anyone can make plug-ins for any UI control.
[08:24] Aleric Inglewood: The idea behind my library was to decouple all objects at those points where they normally still interfer: global initialization, timers, system resources (I/O, files, sockets, pipes), memory management, etc.
[08:24] Oz Linden: The viewer team is very busy.... I won't say doing what
[08:24] Oz Linden: (yet)
[08:24] Mojito Sorbet: Ah, there we go again
[08:25] Drew Dwi: 2.1
[08:25] Techwolf Lupindo: Fucking NDA block any worthwhile discussion.
[08:25] Greeting Drew .
[08:25] Imaze Rhiano: it is hard to work with Open source and NDA same time...
[08:25] Saijanai Kuhn: oz, my own thoughts on modularity, based off of Morgain's idea, but using the existing viewer architecture: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion
[08:25] Aleric Inglewood: So when we're done with porting all our patches to 2.0, they will release 2.1 and still haven't added our stuff to it - and then we can go again?
[08:25] Mojito Sorbet: We know what Linden's busines splan is, but how it affects specific decisions is completely invisible to us
[08:25] Oz Linden: Sorry Aleric... my familarity with the code itself is still in its infancy...
[08:25] Greeting Robin .
[08:26] Oz Linden: Patience, Mojito... I won't be effective if I start out by stepping on the toes of other Lindens
[08:26] Oz Linden: Thanks for the pointer... I'll have a look at it
[08:27] Ardy Lay: I want the UI to be more responsive. V2, so far is less responsive and increases the number of steps I have to take to perform many common tasks. I have to wonder what collective design process spawns such developments.
[08:27] Ambient Moderation Orb 4.1: Your timer has expired!
[08:27] Mojito Sorbet: Oh, that one I can explain easily
[08:27] Saijanai Kuhn: UI design is HARD
[08:27] Oz Linden: Yes, and it's going to take some time to build enough trust to change that (in both directions)
[08:27] Mojito Sorbet: You hire outside consultantsa who have never logged into SL to design the interface for you
[08:27] Oz Linden: Let me close with this question... (and then I really must go)....
[08:27] Aleric Inglewood: I guess that what I want to say is that a REALLY good core / glue for an application like the viewer would need a very skilled top coder to work 10 years... or 10 of them work one year... in other words, that isn't going to happen. The result will be that the glue isn't going to be flexible enough, and frustration will lay ahead :/
[08:28] Saijanai Kuhn: Aleric, check out realXtend
[08:28]
[08:28] Oz Linden: Would you share your business plans with people who characterized you as evil and constantly declared their hostility toward you?
[08:28] Mojito Sorbet: We already KNOW your business plans!
[08:28] Mojito Sorbet: What we do not know are your technical plans
[08:28] Oz Linden: No, you don't
[08:29] Mojito Sorbet: We can read the resumes of all the top officers. It is obvious what the plan is
[08:29] Aleric Inglewood: catch 22
[08:29] Oz Linden: Anyway... I have to go.
[08:29] Drew Dwi: no, the hostility that comes from going public with ideas/plans makes most discussions useless
[08:29] Oz Linden: Thank you all for coming... this has been very helpful to me
[08:29] Drew Dwi: take care
[08:29] Oz Linden: See you next time.

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