User:Oz Linden/Office Hours Archive 2010-07-06

List of Attendees

• Annalisa Muliaina
• estrella Seminario
• jaed Cartier
• Jonno Stromfield
• Kira Wolkenberg
• Latif Khalifa
• Mojito Sorbet
• Morgaine Dinova
• Moy Loon
• Opensource Obscure
• Oz Linden
• Ravelli Ormstein
• Techwolf Lupindo
• tx Oh
• WolfPup Lowenhar

Transcript

[07:32]	Opensource Obscure:	hello everybody
[07:32]	Moy Loon:	Hey!
[07:32]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, is your status (Busy) by accident? :)
[07:32]	Latif Khalifa:	hey OO
[07:33]	Oz Linden:	yes... thx
[07:33]	Oz Linden:	how's everyone?
[07:33]	Moy Loon:	Not too bad :o
[07:34]	Latif Khalifa:	been hot the past couple of days here Copenhagen :)
[07:34]	Oz Linden:	Anyone have topics they want to discuss today (extra points for new ones)
[07:35]	Latif Khalifa:	new topic, hm..
[07:35]	estrella Seminario:	hi all..
[07:35]	jaed Cartier:	greetings
[07:35]	Latif Khalifa:	i'm afraid i don't have any topics that were not mentioned at some point
[07:36]	Latif Khalifa:	hello estrella, jaed
[07:36]	Ravelli Ormstein:	hello everyone!
[07:36]	Oz Linden:	some new faces today.... glad to see you
[07:37]	Latif Khalifa:	you said you will ask around about UThreadInjector so we don't talk about "rumors" but facts :)
[07:38]	Oz Linden:	Yes, I did... it turns out that the decision was made just a couple of hours before that meeting, which was why I had not heard it yet.
[07:38]	Oz Linden:	There was a lot of internal discussion, but the decsion was ultimately to not release that to open source
[07:39]	Oz Linden:	We're mothballed that project for now.
[07:39]	Oz Linden:	s/We're/We've/
[07:39]	Opensource Obscure:	can someone please explain what UThreadInjector is (or would have been) in a few words?
[07:39]	Oz Linden:	disappointing on some level, but it's a complicated issue
[07:40]	Oz Linden:	sure...
[07:40]	Moy Loon:	Mono
[07:41]	Latif Khalifa:	it's a micro-threading framework for mono which allows one operating system thread to execute thousands of micro-threads (scripts in SL simulator)
[07:41]	Oz Linden:	it's a set of changes to the mono compilation process that would (in combination with some other things) have enabled some additional scripting languages
[07:41]	Mojito Sorbet:	But what dies it *do*?
[07:41]	Opensource Obscure:	you talked about releasing it .. so I guess it's something developed by LL ?
[07:41]	Mojito Sorbet:	Insert "yield" calls here and there?
[07:41]	Oz Linden:	both statements are true (at different levels of granularity)
[07:42]	Oz Linden:	yes - at carefully chosen points
[07:42]	Opensource Obscure:	fine for me, thanks.
[07:42]	Latif Khalifa:	Mojito, inspect complied bytecode in assemblies and inserts yield points so the executin can arbitrarily interrupted
[07:42]	Mojito Sorbet:	That seems pretty simple in concept. I do not understand why there needs to be anything proprietary about how you do it
[07:42]	Kira Wolkenberg:	in a way like pseudo multi threading of scripts using link messages it allows more to things to happen per clock cycle of the cpu, but why moth ball it?
[07:43]	Latif Khalifa:	it also does script "packaging" which allows running script to be transfered from one VM to another
[07:43]	Mojito Sorbet:	The mothballing is because LL no longer has the resources to keep working on it
[07:44]	Oz Linden:	Why. mothball it.... as you know, LL had to downsize recently, and so there are many things we were doing before than we no longer have the people to do
[07:44]	Oz Linden:	this is one of them (for now)
[07:44]	Kira Wolkenberg:	*nods* Understood Oz
[07:45]	Oz Linden:	Hopefully, at some point we'll be able to pick it up again
[07:46]	Latif Khalifa:	Who is in charge of making a decision like that at LL?
[07:46]	Latif Khalifa:	I mean what to opensource, what not (not what to downsize)
[07:47]	Oz Linden:	The initial call is made by a committee consisting of engineering execs and myself and a few others. This one got quite wide discussion at the exec level.
[07:47]	Opensource Obscure:	Oz, SL Linux viewer is still marked as "Beta" - all Linux versions have always been called "Beta". Will the Linux viewer ever become 'stable' / 'official' at some point? (it's not just a naming issue)
[07:48]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Hi all. Just got here.
[07:48]	Latif Khalifa:	hey tech
[07:48]	Moy Loon:	I think they do that because of the amount of support that would be needed if it wasn't 'beta'
[07:48]	Mojito Sorbet:	hahaha
[07:48]	Oz Linden:	LInux viewer Beta.... I didn't know that... good question.
[07:49]	Mojito Sorbet:	In that case, a lot more should be rolled back to "beta" status
[07:49]	Opensource Obscure:	no hurry...maybe you can ask around please?
[07:50]	Oz Linden:	I just sent a query (but I can see that the person I sent it to is not at his desk).... let's see what I find out
[07:50]	Opensource Obscure:	great thanks
[07:50]	Techwolf Lupindo:	What got wide discussion? I just remember this OH a few minutes ago....we need a public ediable OH HUD>
[07:51]	Oz Linden:	in what way do you think that's important? My intuition is that Linux users care less about that than other users might
[07:51]	Mojito Sorbet:	The UThreadInjector OpenSource decision
[07:51]	Latif Khalifa:	Tech, the decision not to opensource UThreadInjector
[07:51]	Kira Wolkenberg:	yeah its currently on the back burrner for now
[07:51]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Ah...it was just a mono thing wasn't it?
[07:52]	Opensource Obscure:	Oz: as a Linux user, I'm scared by the possibility that the SL Linux viewer just disappears .. you know, seeing that Tofu works in Brighton (AFAIK, Tofu is the main Linux developer)
[07:52]	Mojito Sorbet:	All Linux users are not hackers willing to use "unsupported" code.
[07:52]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Brighton, CO?
[07:53]	Opensource Obscure:	Tech what's CO? (sorry)
[07:53]	Oz Linden:	Tofu has been a great champion of the Linux viewer... but he's not the only one (add me to the list now)
[07:53]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Colorato.
[07:53]	Opensource Obscure:	no, UK. I think.
[07:53]	Oz Linden:	UK - correct, although technically Tofu is based at his home
[07:54]	Opensource Obscure:	ok
[07:54]	Techwolf Lupindo:	My experence with linux viewer is that I build standalone on 64-bit system. Its about 2 to 10 times more stable then the windows version.
[07:54]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[07:54]	Mojito Sorbet:	The only part some people have trouble with is sounds, which are always a fragile part of Linux
[07:54]	Kira Wolkenberg:	hum depends on version though Tech for me
[07:54]	Oz Linden:	At LL, we refer to a home office location as a 'moonlab' - I love that
[07:54]	Techwolf Lupindo:	And latlay, the only crashes I get was due to my own actions.
[07:55]	Opensource Obscure:	moonlab ! :D
[07:55]	Kira Wolkenberg:	hehehe
[07:55]	Opensource Obscure:	a different kind of question ..
[07:55]	Opensource Obscure:	is there a roadmap for official support to shadows? Second Life content is really cooler if you can enable shadows. But to optimize results, content creators must know if/when those features will be officially supported (not to mention users hardware issues...)
[07:55]	Moy Loon:	That's about how often I crash aswell, when I break something, on either windows, or linux..
[07:56]	Mojito Sorbet:	People who want shadows can use Kirsten's viewer
[07:56]	Oz Linden:	Shadows: don't know. Isn't there an option for that in V2?
[07:56]	Moy Loon:	Yeah, RenderDeferred has been around in the main client for a couple of years now
[07:56]	Kira Wolkenberg:	Emerald has it too though, but no haven't seen it on v2.1 yet
[07:56]	Mojito Sorbet:	Shadows are really only viable for still photography, not every day walking around
[07:56]	Opensource Obscure:	y, but it's in Development menu
[07:56]	Oz Linden:	ah, no... was thinking of something else
[07:57]	tx Oh:	aeh... sorry. maybe i'm complete off-topic but when do we get mesh import ?
[07:57]	Moy Loon:	I dunno Mojito, I can usualy go to most places in SL, with very acceptable framerates with all the fancy shadows enabled
[07:57]	Mojito Sorbet:	Ask Qarl
[07:57]	Mojito Sorbet:	But he will not tell you
[07:57]	Moy Loon:	Unless it's say, things like GI, then I usualy go below 20 or so in busy areas
[07:58]	Oz Linden:	Shadows are certainly one of those things that won't be enabled except for viewers with good graphics hardware, so you can't count on all users seeing them
[07:58]	Mojito Sorbet:	You must have one of those muscley video cards
[07:58]	Moy Loon:	Just a 480 ;)
[07:58]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Shadows just need to be optimized to take advantage of any new hardware calls to help the FPS rate.
[07:58]	Moy Loon:	But, It's CPU that's my main bottleneck
[07:58]	Opensource Obscure:	not really. <100 US $ cards are enough.
[07:58]	tx Oh:	oh, shadow is easier to use now over the development menu
[07:58]	Opensource Obscure:	480 LOL
[07:58]	Oz Linden:	mesh import: "no comment at thiss time" (sorry)
[07:58]	Annalisa Muliaina:	hello everybody
[07:59]	Kira Wolkenberg:	well even my GTX285 can't handle shadows and the lengthy draw of 512 m
[07:59]	Kira Wolkenberg:	so
[07:59]	Opensource Obscure:	that's your fault, sorry for you Kira
[07:59]	Moy Loon:	It would be your CPU that's your bottleck
[07:59]	Kira Wolkenberg:	LOL
[07:59]	Moy Loon:	Unless it's like, a P4
[07:59]	tx Oh:	i have a 9800gtx+ and can handle shadows
[07:59]	Moy Loon:	SL doesn't do much with the GPU to be honest
[07:59]	Oz Linden:	Poll: what percentage of residents would you all guess have 'class 0' (basic Intel motherboard) graphics hardware?
[07:59]	Opensource Obscure:	anyway, i'm done with this question, thanks
[07:59]	Kira Wolkenberg:	True, but it only uses 2 of my processors on my core i7
[08:00]	Opensource Obscure:	Oz: i fear at least 1/3
[08:00]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz half?
[08:00]	Kira Wolkenberg:	speaking of that will SL ever go to full multicore?
[08:00]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I have a 260 here. I torchured my client during the sl7b event and set my draw to 1024 and fly around the event area. Managed to get a few photos.
[08:00]	tx Oh:	oh, i need shadow and shadow casting light sources for machinima
[08:00]	Moy Loon:	Not very much, people with intel integrated chips don't stick around too often
[08:00]	Oz Linden:	come on.. .be brave... some guesses...
[08:00]	Kira Wolkenberg:	ROFL that's kinda what I had thought
[08:01]	tx Oh:	well, i guess 70% comes with stock graphics
[08:01]	Oz Linden:	My very first Linden Bear (when it's done) to the closest guess
[08:01]	Mojito Sorbet:	30-50%
[08:01]	Moy Loon:	Under 10%
[08:01]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I like to see some stats on hardware usage. Would give contect creaters an idea who there main client is.
[08:01]	Mojito Sorbet:	Well, it depends how long they have been here
[08:01]	Jonno Stromfield:	I use three different computers to access SL, and one has integrated intel chips. So to judge from a sample of one, it's a third
[08:01]	Opensource Obscure:	i wish that, Moy !
[08:01]	Mojito Sorbet:	For noobs, expect all sorts of slow hardware
[08:01]	Mojito Sorbet:	They either upgrade, or leave
[08:01]	Oz Linden:	all residents, all sessions
[08:01]	Kira Wolkenberg:	I'm at from 10 to 20 % depending on what else I am doing with SL running
[08:02]	Moy Loon:	I would guess under 10% of the users that continue to play, and probably 30% of all people
[08:02]	Latif Khalifa:	of all residents it can be over 50%
[08:02]	Latif Khalifa:	of all sessions ~25%?
[08:02]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I bet the matrix for Intel graphics from new users it pretty high, but those uses don't stick around for long.
[08:02]	Latif Khalifa:	(me guessing people do try to use with class 0 but don't login much after that
[08:02]	Opensource Obscure:	actually I think LL recently said something about users hardware...something like "we recently found you use really shitty hardware, worst than we thought" ... it was worded in a nicer way tho
[08:02]	Oz Linden:	60%
[08:02]	Kira Wolkenberg:	OUCH
[08:02]	Opensource Obscure:	DUN DUNNN DUNNNNNNN
[08:03]	Oz Linden:	that includes everyone all the time
[08:03]	Latif Khalifa:	60% of what? all resis?
[08:03]	Moy Loon:	Is that sessions, or unique users?
[08:03]	Opensource Obscure:	they must die.
[08:03]	Mojito Sorbet:	The requirement for better hardware was listed explicitly in the announcement about why the Japanese MagSL company withdrew form SL recently
[08:03]	Moy Loon:	And, how many of them stay?
[08:03]	Opensource Obscure:	sigh
[08:03]	Opensource Obscure:	sigh,
[08:03]	Oz Linden:	It's important for developers to know who and what they are developing for
[08:03]	Moy Loon:	Joe and Soft were saying that the majority of people with intel chipsets, never play after one or two sessions
[08:03]	Mojito Sorbet:	Like, do not waste time putting hi-rez textures on your clothing
[08:04]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Oz, that is due to new users getting there first laptop. All the high end users was driven off over the past few years with LL policsity changes under M.
[08:04]	Mojito Sorbet:	IN fact, do not make fancy clothing at all - most people only see grey
[08:04]	Opensource Obscure:	now i get why people like my buildings ... they have NO textures ....
[08:04]	tx Oh:	well, you should propagate best usage hardware then... ask nvidia for a partnership
[08:04]	Oz Linden:	that includes both people who stay and people who don't (I don't have the percentage at hand for long time resis... it's higher, but not nearly as high as you would think)
[08:04]	Jonno Stromfield:	Come oWhat do you do when you get the message saying your hardware isn't up to it? You ignore it, right?
[08:04]	Kira Wolkenberg:	Well not absolutely true Moy, I've mentored some to teach them how to work within their graphics levels, though they soon get a dedicated card system after then.
[08:05]	Latif Khalifa:	still 60% of what (residents?, sessions?)
[08:05]	Kira Wolkenberg:	Low graphics and no rendering of anything is bad for them
[08:05]	Oz Linden:	residents
[08:05]	tx Oh:	in the time where the web came up a lot of people used 28kbit modems...
[08:05]	Latif Khalifa:	not surprising
[08:05]	Mojito Sorbet:	My nVidia 1GB video card cost only $100, but you can't put that in a laptop, and that is a sizable price to add to a laptop even if you could. Not to mention the power supply demands
[08:05]	Latif Khalifa:	i would be surprised if the number would be that high for sessions
[08:05]	Kira Wolkenberg:	true
[08:06]	Moy Loon:	I would like to know the numbers on people who stay aruond for more than a couple weeks or so
[08:06]	tx Oh:	well, the client even works on an eeepc...
[08:06]	Latif Khalifa:	Mojito, for desktop you can get pretty decent sl graphics for less than $100 (9800gt fx)
[08:06]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Moy, I know it was lower then what M was expecting with the launch of 2.0
[08:06]	Mojito Sorbet:	My experience was that running a VW client on a slow laptop resulting in so many texture-baking failures that I have deleted all viewers form my laptop.
[08:06]	Oz Linden:	I can try to get that... but the important thing is to try to develop both viewers and in-world content in a way that allows those people to have a decent experience
[08:06]	Mojito Sorbet:	Explain that
[08:07]	Oz Linden:	You're right ... it's a problem for 2.0 (a little less so for 2.1, and will improve)
[08:07]	Mojito Sorbet:	Perhaps the viewers should have a LOWER setting on the video quality slider, to help such people
[08:07]	Techwolf Lupindo:	My latop that I use on the road only has a 7800 PGU
[08:07]	Techwolf Lupindo:	GPU
[08:07]	Kira Wolkenberg:	hehehe
[08:07]	Kira Wolkenberg:	for the most part v2.1 is stable
[08:07]	tx Oh:	well, the 2.x viewer is more resource intensive. and has a lot of things which makes it unusable, like that i can't combine near/local chats in the IM window
[08:08]	Oz Linden:	You answered part of your own question, Mojito
[08:08]	tx Oh:	and switch off all this popping message boxes
[08:08]	Moy Loon:	I find the 2.0 to use less resources, 'cept with one or two issues
[08:08]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I wonder if the devolper of cool viewer has some stats on 1.19 usage. That verion is still being keep around for older hardware.
[08:08]	Moy Loon:	(Like, voice taking up a core on it's own)
[08:08]	Oz Linden:	viewers need to be able to detect and intelligently adapt to capabilities
[08:09]	Mojito Sorbet:	On lowest setting, will SL look like a Super Mario Brothers game?
[08:09]	Kira Wolkenberg:	hum so that would help prevent some from overheating their graphics cards in their laptops with the detecting of the temperatures and such?
[08:09]	Latif Khalifa:	Mojito, it would be interestng if you tried pre windlight based Cool Viewer
[08:09]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Hmm....that 60% intell number expains something else. One reaon why WoW is so popular. Can be played on laptops.
[08:09]	Latif Khalifa:	on that laptop
[08:09]	Mojito Sorbet:	Why does WoW need so much less gfx processing?
[08:09]	Moy Loon:	Because it's really low resource
[08:09]	Opensource Obscure:	WoW content is made by pros
[08:10]	Opensource Obscure:	not generic people as in SL
[08:10]	Moy Loon:	The graphics are about as demanding as games were over eight years ago
[08:10]	Latif Khalifa:	(i have one with nvidia 8600m chip and it runs SL in high 30FPs)
[08:10]	Opensource Obscure:	so it's muuuch optimized if compared to SL content
[08:10]	tx Oh:	well, i set my computer to 2x1ghz for now because it tends to overheat in summertimes :-)
[08:10]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Content creater needs BETTER tools to tell them the _real_ rendering cost of there stuff.
[08:10]	Opensource Obscure:	2. [I MAY BE WRONG] iirc, WoW content is not downloaded but provided on discs
[08:10]	Oz Linden:	I suspect that part of it is because the content is more carefully crafted with the viewer in mind.... another way of looking at it is that WoW viewers don't have to adapt to arbitrary content
[08:11]	Mojito Sorbet:	Whether it is downloaded or comes on a CD, we are talking about the GPU requirements
[08:11]	Oz Linden:	That's a good idea, Tech
[08:11]	Moy Loon:	I think what content creators need Tech, is to acctualy know how to create instead :o
[08:11]	Moy Loon:	Using 200 sculpts for simple geometry is a complete waste
[08:11]	tx Oh:	do we get a fix/solution on that? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17332
[08:11]	Mojito Sorbet:	SOmething like "ARC" during build time
[08:11]	Kira Wolkenberg:	well think about it too, most of WoW's content is on the CDs that come with it too, so that doesn't help us here in SL where you can have dynamic content
[08:11]	Moy Loon:	There's lots of 'necklaces' with 256 prims, and are all sculpts
[08:11]	Opensource Obscure:	if you restrict creation to skilled people, you move SL as we know it to something else
[08:12]	Moy Loon:	That's well over 500k polygons, more than a single frame in most of todays cutting edge games
[08:12]	Mojito Sorbet:	So supply the tools to help them BECOME skilled
[08:12]	Moy Loon:	For a necklace, it's inane
[08:12]	Moy Loon:	insane *
[08:12]	Oz Linden:	Here's another perspective.... allowing a creator to see what things look like at lower capabilities (without messing with detailed prefs)
[08:12]	Jonno Stromfield:	I think that's a good way to go, Oz
[08:12]	Opensource Obscure:	Oz: that would make lot of sense I think
[08:12]	Techwolf Lupindo:	These same tools sould be avalibe to users so they can tell who is telling the truth when contect creaters advertized "low lag" stuff. End users can be a powerfull tool to make content creaters change there ways.
[08:12]	Opensource Obscure:	don't meshes provide some of that feature?
[08:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Just because SL content doesn't come preloaded on a CD, doesn't mean that it changes every few minutes. 99% of SL is static content from day to day, and could easily be optimized.
[08:13]	Opensource Obscure:	99%. I like statistics.
[08:13]	Mojito Sorbet:	Keep in mind that a lot of fancy creative work is done OUTSIDE of SL. For meshes and sculpties in particular. The feedback has to happen there too
[08:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	OK, 99.9%
[08:13]	Moy Loon:	Acctualy mojito, Most of your rendering/proccessing would be the avs, and not the rest of the scene :o
[08:13]	Mojito Sorbet:	But to start, a good article form Torley on the performance impact of various building techniques.
[08:13]	Latif Khalifa:	Morgaine, the question was why WoW has higher FPS than SL viewer. The big reason is that SL content is user generated and hardy optmized for performance
[08:14]	Moy Loon:	Go into wireframe, and look around
[08:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	A hell of a lot of stuff doesn't even change from month to month, and some content remains unchanged for years.
[08:14]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Better cache will help rez times. Why limit it to 1G? (I know the answer to that)
[08:14]	Latif Khalifa:	(and we don't want all-pro sl content, we already have that, it's called blue mars) xD
[08:14]	Mojito Sorbet:	Ha. Because of some old bug in WIndows 98!
[08:14]	Moy Loon:	If it's any larger, when you do a 'purge', you'll end up locking up and time out if you have a slow hdd/cpu
[08:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: while that's the case, it doesn't mean that SL's can't be optimized locally.
[08:14]	Moy Loon:	Blue mars ia a joke
[08:15]	Moy Loon:	is a*
[08:15]	Latif Khalifa:	Morg, sure load times can, FPS is more difficult
[08:15]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Moy, and why does it lock up? Hard drive access should not lock up the client hard.
[08:15]	Opensource Obscure:	ok have a great day you all
[08:15]	Mojito Sorbet:	On optimization, for example - when you upload an animation, SL "simplifies" it.
[08:15]	Kira Wolkenberg:	yeah speaking of that in the advanced settings why does it seem that anything higher from 512 MBs of Graphics catch doesn't seem to help playing SL?
[08:15]	Opensource Obscure:	thanks for the meeting Oz
[08:15]	Latif Khalifa:	Morg, oz told us that 60% of all residents use class 0 (intel motherboard integrated) grapics hardware
[08:15]	Kira Wolkenberg:	same for graphics too Moj
[08:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Once something has been downloaded to your machine, it could be compiled into a highly efficient form, and cached, and never flushed unless the item changes or you run out of disk space.
[08:15]	Moy Loon:	It doesn't do all the purging in another thread, so it has to go through the entire cache, move the things in the files around, and delete the old things that aren't used too often
[08:16]	Moy Loon:	And, when you go through a 300+MB vfs file, it can take a few seconds
[08:16]	tx Oh:	well, i think i should join the bug triage on this 'nearby chat' thingy
[08:16]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Oz, that another problem there, the SL upload FORCED optimaztion. Lots of content creater have to work around that to get there stuff to look better. Hence why you see hair with 1024 textures.
[08:16]	Mojito Sorbet:	If you want a fast robust file system, use the one the OS makers have provided you.
[08:16]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Lossless uploads would help in that area.
[08:16]	Moy Loon:	It's faster to use a FVS, than to have 50k + 500 byte files in a folder
[08:17]	Mojito Sorbet:	That depends on the file system, Moy
[08:17]	Moy Loon:	VFS *
[08:17]	Techwolf Lupindo:	There is also some long standing animation bugs. Like the first frame played twice.
[08:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	GW's cache datafile (its own VFS) is > 4 gigs in size, and changes continually as the world changes.
[08:17]	Moy Loon:	Well, people on NTFS/EXT3 and whatever mac uses, it's still faster to use this method =p
[08:17]	Moy Loon:	Maybe that resierfs, or however you spell it might be quick with small files
[08:17]	Mojito Sorbet:	All the third-paryt animation tools already have adapted to that first-frame bug.
[08:18]	Moy Loon:	But, I think something that was made for this game, to use in this game, for this specific purpose, would be faster than the standard FS anyways
[08:18]	Techwolf Lupindo:	If you need lots of small data sets in a cache, use an embedded db. Embedded db will allways be faster then the OS file system.
[08:18]	Oz Linden:	/me thinks this sounds like a good thesis project for someone....
[08:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Tech: that depends totally on the filesystem and the O/S.
[08:18]	Mojito Sorbet:	I just remembered...
[08:19]	Mojito Sorbet:	Ubuntu netbook edition comes with CouchDB built in. They use it for simple things like stickyu notes even
[08:19]	Moy Loon:	The only thing that isn't in the VFS, is textures, Because they're larger files, And it would be a waste to have thousands of 384KB sized files in something that has to be purged all the time
[08:19]	Latif Khalifa:	Oz, there was a big discussion about optimizing sl viewer cache, but it got shotdown due to quasi-DRM it provides in its current incarnation
[08:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: who shot it down?
[08:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me gets ready to shoot back.
[08:20]	Moy Loon:	I have a great method to making the cache work better
[08:20]	Moy Loon:	Place it on a ramdrive
[08:21]	Moy Loon:	Instant loading of things you've seen before
[08:21]	Latif Khalifa:	well it's in the archives of the sldev list... pressure from "content creators" and lindens succumbing to it
[08:21]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	moy what about the people that do not have the main memory for a ramdrive?
[08:21]	Oz Linden:	I don't have the numbers on RAM sizes at hand, but they were equally shocking... RAM drive won't help most people
[08:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Content creators should go create, and leave system design to people better qualified.
[08:22]	Mojito Sorbet:	They dont want their stuff ripped off - a legitimate concern
[08:22]	Moy Loon:	Content creators should have a say in the system, as they use that said system
[08:22]	Latif Khalifa:	one proposal was to store texture cache as PNG, as a significant amount of CPU is used for deceoding jpeg2000...
[08:22]	Moy Loon:	PNG is more intensive than the jpeg2k though
[08:22]	Oz Linden:	I think it's more a question of sharing enough information for everyone to make well informed cost/benefit tradeoffs
[08:22]	Mojito Sorbet:	Talk about easy to copy....
[08:22]	Moy Loon:	And larger file sizes too
[08:23]	Latif Khalifa:	Moy, png is much simpler to decode
[08:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	I guess I should have a say in what content creators create, because I don't like their aesthetics. Right?
[08:23]	Kira Wolkenberg:	Not in some respects I thought yeah decoding though storage size is more ?
[08:23]	Latif Khalifa:	yes, you sacrifice some storage space for speed of decoding
[08:23]	Mojito Sorbet:	Even little laptops come with 200GB disks these days
[08:24]	Moy Loon:	I'm not too sure what's faster, png or jpeg2k, I do know that loading some 4kx4k jpeg2k's was faster for me atleast, than pngs of that size, and since you're allready getting the data as jpeg2ks, resaving them as pngs would be terrible waste of cpu time, as it's hard to compress pngs
[08:24]	Mojito Sorbet:	If the image was not a photograph of a natural object in the first place, PNG compresses it just fine
[08:25]	Moy Loon:	I think maybe, opening a PNG would be faster with a good decoder, than say, openjpeg, as that's pretty slow in my opinion
[08:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Don't guess what's faster. Virtualize the storage interface, allow different encodings to be used, add instrumentation to measure storage and retrieval times, and then you'll actually KNOW. Guessing isn't engineering.
[08:25]	Kira Wolkenberg:	hum though then what about the transmission of the PNG files or say another format that may be better in size...
[08:25]	Latif Khalifa:	the purpose of cache is to write once, read many times. try benchmarking how long does it take to read 512x512 png vs. jpeg
[08:25]	Moy Loon:	Half of things in SL are organic, and even then trying to compress things with jpeg artifacts would be bad
[08:25]	Kira Wolkenberg:	not all can handle the high res files of 512 and 1024
[08:25]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I think most textures in SL are not photos, but more "GIF" like. I don't see too many photo relistic stuff in SL.
[08:26]	Mojito Sorbet:	Some building tectures. Like stucco walss, and things
[08:26]	Mojito Sorbet:	walls
[08:26]	Kira Wolkenberg:	*nods* most photo realistic is high res at 1024x1024
[08:26]	Mojito Sorbet:	A lot of clothing uses 1024 textures, which is probably way more than necesary
[08:27]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	techwolf there are plenty of 'photo' relistic skins for avs out there
[08:27]	Moy Loon:	Other great things about jpeg2k, is the fact you can easily get each size, as it's a series of packets
[08:27]	Latif Khalifa:	it does not really matter for clothing, they get baked to 512x512 anyway
[08:27]	Jonno Stromfield:	Is there an image/compression format that can produce a degraded version of the image quickly, because it's only when you zoom in you see the full resolution of most of the textures
[08:27]	Moy Loon:	And, you can't easily do that with PNGs, they're not really made for live streaming like jpeg2k is
[08:27]	Mojito Sorbet:	Jonno, Jpeg2K can do that
[08:27]	Ravelli Ormstein:	aren't textures saved as jpeg2k on the servers?
[08:28]	Latif Khalifa:	Moy, I was not talking about changing what is transmitted, just wht is cached
[08:28]	Techwolf Lupindo:	One small problem with 1024x1024 is SL "optmizes" that so when using just one for a huge wall or side of a large building, you still get artfacts, so content creater has to use a 4x4 of 1024x1024 instead of a single 1024.
[08:28]	Latif Khalifa:	Tech, those sl content creators are obviously clueless ;)
[08:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	With a working cache, streaming time for first-seen items would barely matter. And it would only matter ONCE.
[08:28]	Mojito Sorbet:	A replicated small texture will look better than a stretched big one, provided it was designed to be "seamless"
[08:29]	Mojito Sorbet:	oo oo an idea. Allow texture replication on clothing
[08:30]	Mojito Sorbet:	hmm. Not clear what the win would be after the baking process tho
[08:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Baking actually needs to go. Can't work for multi-world interop, unless the worlds are identical.
[08:31]	Mojito Sorbet:	Hmm, make "outfit compositing" a separate manual step?
[08:31]	Latif Khalifa:	LL said (even officially now) they're not into world interop
[08:31]	Oz Linden:	I'm afraid our (my) time is up... I've got another meeting to prep for. Thanks all for coming
[08:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, but we are.
[08:31]	Ravelli Ormstein:	thank you too
[08:32]	Mojito Sorbet:	I select the shirt, jacket, skin, etc I want fomr my inventory, and tell it "bake that". The result is a single texture, which is what I wear
[08:32]	tx Oh:	ahoi
[08:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's LL's business if they want SL to die while the rest of the planet interoperates.
[08:32]	Latif Khalifa:	take care Oz
[08:32]	Oz Linden:	We didn't say we weren't "into" interop... just that we can't afford to work on it right now
[08:32]	Latif Khalifa:	same difference
[08:32]	Kira Wolkenberg:	Understood, thanks Oz though
[08:32]	Mojito Sorbet:	It will be up to SL's future owners to decide if they are interested
[08:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oz: those two things are equivalent in practice.
[08:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cya Oz
[08:32]	Jonno Stromfield:	ty
[08:32]	estrella Seminario:	ty
[08:32]	Oz Linden:	A good topic for another day, Morgaine :-)
[08:33]	tx Oh:	hihi, i love hypergrid
[08:33]	WolfPup Lowenhar:	tc oz
[08:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	/me smiles

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