User:Qarl Linden/Office Hours/2009 11 20

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[2009-11-20 11:01:16] Jonit Ivory: who knows, or cares, but I have to add weight to it as it seems Mark commented on it
[2009-11-20 11:01:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: Thank you for the SLURL Morg :)
[2009-11-20 11:01:56] lonetorus Habilis: hey nyx
[2009-11-20 11:02:02] Sebastean Steamweaverri: Ashton: so qarl, any projects you finished in last few weeks you beena way?
[2009-11-20 11:02:03] Uni Ninetails: its Nyx quick get em! :)
[2009-11-20 11:02:04] Sebastean Steamweaverri: Ashton: hey nyx
[2009-11-20 11:02:05] lonetorus Habilis: wlcome latif
[2009-11-20 11:02:13] Latif Khalifa: hey all :)
[2009-11-20 11:02:16] Latif Khalifa: thanks
[2009-11-20 11:02:20] Nyx Linden: I didn't do it! :D
[2009-11-20 11:02:29] Jonit Ivory: why not?
[2009-11-20 11:02:30] Nyx Linden: err, I mean hi :)
[2009-11-20 11:02:33] Morgaine Dinova: We're not dead. We're just not scaling. The Beeb should have looked at the numbers and realized
[2009-11-20 11:02:47] Sebastean Steamweaverri: Ashton: wish you did do it nyx, then you did something :p hehe
[2009-11-20 11:02:48] Jonit Ivory: I saw your comment in AWG Morgaine, yes yes
[2009-11-20 11:02:51] Sebastean Steamweaverri: Ashton: jk dude :p
[2009-11-20 11:03:19] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Nyx :-)
[2009-11-20 11:03:28] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
[2009-11-20 11:03:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yay! I'm not sitting on someone!
[2009-11-20 11:03:35] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Rex
[2009-11-20 11:03:36] Qarl Linden: so what's on the agenda for today?
[2009-11-20 11:03:42] Rex Cronon: hi morgaine
[2009-11-20 11:03:46] Morgaine Dinova: Other than ****
[2009-11-20 11:03:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: any announcements Qarl?
[2009-11-20 11:03:57] lonetorus Habilis: what about **** ?
[2009-11-20 11:04:11] Uni Ninetails: i have to wait till Monday to ask my stuff :P~
[2009-11-20 11:04:14] Morgaine Dinova: Is **** done scalably at least? ;-)
[2009-11-20 11:04:30] Qarl Linden: pretty much so, yes.
[2009-11-20 11:04:33] Rex Cronon: has anybody TPed first down, and did u get this: "[11:03
[2009-11-20 11:04:34] Morgaine Dinova: \o/
[2009-11-20 11:04:46] Qarl Linden: we're still working on the details of the "policy" stuff.
[2009-11-20 11:04:48] Rex Cronon: did u qarl install security system?
[2009-11-20 11:04:55] Jonit Ivory: first and 10, and you got that?
[2009-11-20 11:05:02] Rex Cronon: hi qarl, nyx
[2009-11-20 11:05:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: Policy stuff?
[2009-11-20 11:05:14] Sebastean Steamweaverri: Ashton: didnt see it rex
[2009-11-20 11:05:17] Sebastean Steamweaverri: Ashton: and hi :)
[2009-11-20 11:05:22] Rex Cronon: hi
[2009-11-20 11:05:32] Jonit Ivory: hi Rex, how goes your day?
[2009-11-20 11:05:36] Morgaine Dinova: I sure hope the techies are working on the policy stuff. Otherwise precedent says it'll be another fiasco. DONT leave non-techs to it.
[2009-11-20 11:05:37] Rex Cronon: hi
[2009-11-20 11:05:39] Rex Cronon: ok
[2009-11-20 11:05:42] Qarl Linden: how can we control complexity so that the system doesn't break down with griefing, bad design, etc.
[2009-11-20 11:06:02] Qarl Linden: that's the hardest part, i think.
[2009-11-20 11:06:04] Uni Ninetails: the thing that cannot me mentioned ... X.X
[2009-11-20 11:06:13] Qarl Linden: coming up with good rules for them.
[2009-11-20 11:06:14] Rex Cronon: u have a goverment body elected by the residents, and ll has veto power:)
[2009-11-20 11:06:16] Sebastean Steamweaver: Qarl, I have an answer to that.
[2009-11-20 11:06:21] Qarl Linden: them = which can never be mentioned. :)
[2009-11-20 11:06:26] Uni Ninetails: I hate those Mibs Qarl they mess up the bathroom ate all my cooies and keep cleaning there guns with my underwear.
[2009-11-20 11:06:29] Nyx Linden: shh, we shouldn't discuss unmentionables here
[2009-11-20 11:06:36] Morgaine Dinova: Sounds like you're talking about client-side scripting, hehe.
[2009-11-20 11:06:41] Qarl Linden: questions about **** should probably be directed during the **** office hours.
[2009-11-20 11:06:47] Uni Ninetails: LOL
[2009-11-20 11:06:47] Morgaine Dinova: Haha
[2009-11-20 11:06:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, my answer is pretty generic.
[2009-11-20 11:06:57] Rex Cronon: ok. lets talk meshes:)
[2009-11-20 11:07:05] Uni Ninetails: facepaws
[2009-11-20 11:07:06] Jonit Ivory: poor Kate, she's got one later, I wil try and add *** to her agenda
[2009-11-20 11:07:07] Morgaine Dinova: Held by **** Linden.
[2009-11-20 11:07:08] Qarl Linden: i'll answer if i can.
[2009-11-20 11:07:34] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yesterday, Andrew linden brought up, "What can we do that would entice people to get premium accounts"
[2009-11-20 11:07:36] Rex Cronon: what file types will be avialable for uploading meshes
[2009-11-20 11:07:47] Uni Ninetails: Sebastean carefull what you say those Men in black like cookies...
[2009-11-20 11:07:52] Qarl Linden: "government body elected by the residents" <--- i think is a brilliant idea.
[2009-11-20 11:08:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: I don't know what you're talking about Uni o.0
[2009-11-20 11:08:01] Morgaine Dinova: HAHAHA
[2009-11-20 11:08:01] Jonit Ivory: Sebastean, this was the subject of a blog about 7 or 8 months ago
[2009-11-20 11:08:06] Rex Cronon: i really hope that .obj files will be one of the options
[2009-11-20 11:08:07] Jonit Ivory: Ll asked for comment then
[2009-11-20 11:08:08] Uni Ninetails: Qarl LOL
[2009-11-20 11:08:17] Qarl Linden: can't talk about file formats.
[2009-11-20 11:08:40] Morgaine Dinova: Government in VWs is the worst idea in the history of bad ideas.
[2009-11-20 11:08:40] Sebastean Steamweaver: I have a different idea that I discussed with Ardy after office hours.
[2009-11-20 11:08:47] Rex Cronon: qarl. i also added that ll should have veto powers:)
[2009-11-20 11:08:55] Katiri Hynes: Could you say if common file formats are going to be used? Industry standard?
[2009-11-20 11:09:08] Qarl Linden: heh... democracy doesn't work?
[2009-11-20 11:09:22] Jonit Ivory: Agreed, and I am unanimous in that (Morgaine the are you being served reference doesn't escape you I hope)
[2009-11-20 11:09:25] Morgaine Dinova: Qarl: who knows --- it's never been tried :P
[2009-11-20 11:09:26] Uni Ninetails: not if 500000 bots from some russian gulag vote.
[2009-11-20 11:09:36] Rex Cronon: .obj files are very, very , very popular
[2009-11-20 11:09:43] Qarl Linden: yeah... voting is a hard problem.
[2009-11-20 11:09:55] Rex Cronon: u put all those 500k bots to pass an iq test
[2009-11-20 11:09:58] Rex Cronon: :)
[2009-11-20 11:09:59] Qarl Linden: maybe votes depend on how much land you own...
[2009-11-20 11:10:08] Katiri Hynes: Capitalism! One vote per L$!
[2009-11-20 11:10:12] Qarl Linden: like shareholders in a corp.
[2009-11-20 11:10:14] Uni Ninetails: premiums over xxx days old?
[2009-11-20 11:10:16] Sebastean Steamweaver: What if, instead, there was say, a 10 dollar setup fee for new accounts? You could have 14=30 day "trial periods" with limited inventory, that people could try SL for free. What's more, if a person is AR'd during that trial period, there is a deduction against the payment information they provided upon registering.
[2009-11-20 11:10:33] Jonit Ivory: Hmm
[2009-11-20 11:10:37] Morgaine Dinova: Well that's definitely not democracy, it's rule of the rich :-)
[2009-11-20 11:10:46] Qarl Linden: yeah.
[2009-11-20 11:10:56] Jonit Ivory: sounds like that awful Adult sim game
[2009-11-20 11:10:59] Jonit Ivory: what is it?
[2009-11-20 11:11:09] Jonit Ivory: Red node district
[2009-11-20 11:11:10] Melchizedek Blauvelt: Whatever happened to meritocracy? :(
[2009-11-20 11:11:13] Jonit Ivory: nose*
[2009-11-20 11:11:14] Rex Cronon: will sl become a medieval kingdom?
[2009-11-20 11:11:22] Qarl Linden: anyway - that's what i'm hoping these opensim grids will do.
[2009-11-20 11:11:24] Uni Ninetails: feifdom
[2009-11-20 11:11:28] Sebastean Steamweaver: That would bring in more money for LL, provide us far less worries with griefing, really let up on LL's AR team, and help us improve the quality of SL overall.
[2009-11-20 11:12:33] Connecting to: in-world Voice Chat...
[2009-11-20 11:12:34] Connected undefined:
[2009-11-20 11:12:34] Rex Cronon: hi
[2009-11-20 11:12:35] Jonit Ivory: Well, are free accounts such an issue?
[2009-11-20 11:12:35] Sebastean Steamweaver: And yet you can retain the "free" aspect with the trial period accounts which helps bring in users.
[2009-11-20 11:14:16] Disconnected from: in-world Voice Chat
[2009-11-20 11:16:05] Hug Attachment: (bottom): Usage: Face your target and Say '/hug [person's name]' or '/1hug [person's name]'
[2009-11-20 11:16:05] Hadley Yoshikawa: I have lots of credit cards, and I'm still a jerk.
[2009-11-20 11:16:05] Katiri Hynes: I'm surprised LL hasn't jumped on the "5000L" card being available at Best Buy.
[2009-11-20 11:16:06] Morgaine Dinova: Premium is just beyond the pale. Imagine if in RL you got executed for failing to pay the rent.
[2009-11-20 11:16:11] lonetorus Habilis: pre payed credit cards are the answer to those ppl who just want a throw away alt ;)
[2009-11-20 11:16:12] Jonit Ivory: Morgaine, yes this is interesting
[2009-11-20 11:16:15] Connecting to: in-world Voice Chat...
[2009-11-20 11:16:17] Connected undefined:
[2009-11-20 11:16:26] Jonit Ivory: a flag on ARs that says "premium" give it more thought
[2009-11-20 11:16:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yes Jonit, free accounts are throw-aways for people who grief.
[2009-11-20 11:16:41] Sebastean Steamweaver: Sorry, I got disconnected.
[2009-11-20 11:16:45] Jonit Ivory: yes, and also ways to try for people who do not
[2009-11-20 11:16:45] Hadley Yoshikawa: Free accounts are also a way for someone to play a game without paying for it.
[2009-11-20 11:16:53] Morgaine Dinova: This isn';t a game
[2009-11-20 11:17:21] Uni Ninetails: free acounts get pop up adverts for inworld stores *ducks running
[2009-11-20 11:17:22] Morgaine Dinova: Hadley: you sure you're in the right place?
[2009-11-20 11:17:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: Which is why we still have the trial accoutns, to keep that attractive aspect.
[2009-11-20 11:17:24] Hadley Yoshikawa: If you want to make everyone pay, you end up with WoW
[2009-11-20 11:17:24] Jonit Ivory: you can't tar all with the same brush
[2009-11-20 11:17:25] Hadley Yoshikawa: But it is a game.
[2009-11-20 11:17:25] Rex Cronon: jonit. u want to say that if u have a premium account ucan geirf freely. lol
[2009-11-20 11:17:25] Jonit Ivory: I have seen throwaways repeatedly grief
[2009-11-20 11:17:25] Jonit Ivory: of course I have
[2009-11-20 11:17:28] lonetorus Habilis: can we have biopsy on file instead of credit cards for age verification?
[2009-11-20 11:17:28] Sebastean Steamweaver: After the trial period, people can pay the 10 one-time-fee to keep acccess.
[2009-11-20 11:17:30] Hadley Yoshikawa: And as with all games, some take it more seriously than others.
[2009-11-20 11:17:35] Jonit Ivory: no, but it should be weighted to being a citizen
[2009-11-20 11:17:45] Xugu Madison: Sudden thought... if you charge for accounts, what happens to those of us creating accounts through RegAPI?
[2009-11-20 11:18:01] Jonit Ivory: that is taken care of
[2009-11-20 11:18:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: You still could Xugu
[2009-11-20 11:18:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: You'd just be setting up a trial period.
[2009-11-20 11:18:11] Jonit Ivory: and Reg API was a griefing open door
[2009-11-20 11:18:12] Morgaine Dinova: You're still talking about how to make Basic *worse*!!! WTF
[2009-11-20 11:18:23] Morgaine Dinova: Talk about making Premium better!
[2009-11-20 11:18:26] Jonit Ivory: because of the lax way that people registered (not their fault)
[2009-11-20 11:18:33] Rex Cronon: i am also more interested in the file formats, since isn't very likely that either qarl nor nyx can change policy:)
[2009-11-20 11:18:48] Sebastean Steamweaver: After the trial period, you just require them to pay the one-time fee.
[2009-11-20 11:18:56] Hadley Yoshikawa: Make premium better? Up the base amount of land from 512 to 1024
[2009-11-20 11:19:00] Qarl Linden: heh.
[2009-11-20 11:19:05] Hadley Yoshikawa: That way you can actually do something there
[2009-11-20 11:19:05] Jonit Ivory: OBJ uploads are likely, in time, Rex I apologise, this discussion was headed that way, I joined in
[2009-11-20 11:19:15] Sebastean Steamweaver: I would rather set up a one-time fee for basic accounts, than see premium features improved just to make it attractive for people to upgrade.
[2009-11-20 11:19:22] Xugu Madison: would be a lot more likely to go premium if it meant 3-6 months of transaction history, hint hint
[2009-11-20 11:19:41] Sebastean Steamweaver: The one-time fee, the way I see it, has far more benefits for everyone involved, including LL.
[2009-11-20 11:19:42] Qarl Linden: whatever file format we support - it'll be relatively easy to code support for others...
[2009-11-20 11:19:43] Hadley Yoshikawa: And I would rather not have to pay when I need to create an account that I can use for when my work decides to dive in
[2009-11-20 11:20:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hadley, you wouldn't have to.
[2009-11-20 11:20:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: You could create a free trial.
[2009-11-20 11:20:28] Sebastean Steamweaver: You'd have 15-30 days before you would "have" to pay for it.
[2009-11-20 11:20:28] Hadley Yoshikawa: Yes...and then if my work is in SL for longer than 30 days I just do it again?
[2009-11-20 11:20:38] Sebastean Steamweaver: Why not just create a permanent alt?
[2009-11-20 11:20:50] Sebastean Steamweaver: 10 bucks isn't that much, even to me, and I penny-pinch, heh.
[2009-11-20 11:21:00] Hadley Yoshikawa: And you may not be the ypical SL user.
[2009-11-20 11:21:04] Hadley Yoshikawa: *typical
[2009-11-20 11:21:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: Depends on how you're defining typical.
[2009-11-20 11:21:26] Morgaine Dinova: Anything done to reduce the attraction of Basic is just asking for more and more to go to open grids. You need to make Premium more attractive, not discourage recruitment.
[2009-11-20 11:21:30] Techwolf Lupindo: No one wants an account that can lose (nuke) there inventory with no recorse.
[2009-11-20 11:22:07] Sebastean Steamweaver: If they don't want their inventory nuked, they just have to pay the fee to sign up. You could save their inventory for X days after thr trial period ends.
[2009-11-20 11:22:07] Jonit Ivory: what is the stipend I get?
[2009-11-20 11:22:09] Jonit Ivory: 300
[2009-11-20 11:22:10] Jonit Ivory: ?
[2009-11-20 11:22:13] Jonit Ivory: a dollar a week
[2009-11-20 11:22:14] Qarl Linden: brb guys...
[2009-11-20 11:22:15] Hadley Yoshikawa: Exactly Morgaine. Any fee for a"basic" account means there is no more basic, it's all premium.
[2009-11-20 11:22:35] Jonit Ivory: I say increase allowed tier to accomodate a 1024 plot
[2009-11-20 11:22:40] Morgaine Dinova: Yep. Using Premium to hold money and inventory is just a liability currently. The first thing you need to do to enhance Premium is remove the death penalty.
[2009-11-20 11:22:41] Jonit Ivory: that is a tangible reward
[2009-11-20 11:22:42] Hadley Yoshikawa: Exactly Jonit.
[2009-11-20 11:22:44] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hadley, if you want a throw-away account, you can have one for 30 days. Which is a lot more than most people would need to decide on SL.
[2009-11-20 11:23:06] Sebastean Steamweaver: You aren't paying -anything- outright with the proposed model.
[2009-11-20 11:23:07] Hadley Yoshikawa: Yes, you've said that 500 times.
[2009-11-20 11:23:07] Jonit Ivory: if you increased land to 1024 on Premium
[2009-11-20 11:23:10] Jonit Ivory: you'd rake it in
[2009-11-20 11:23:20] Jonit Ivory: 512 doesn't cut it
[2009-11-20 11:23:22] Melchizedek Blauvelt: I saw someone mention a blacklisted item in some of my group chats, what exactly is it?
[2009-11-20 11:23:26] Hadley Yoshikawa: You aren't justifying, you're simply trying to take the "I paid so should everyone else" road.
[2009-11-20 11:23:36] Jonit Ivory: nods
[2009-11-20 11:23:40] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hadley, I'm on a basic account, I have no premium account.
[2009-11-20 11:23:46] Sebastean Steamweaver: I haven't paid, as you said.
[2009-11-20 11:23:48] Hadley Yoshikawa: Despite what people say, SL is a game.
[2009-11-20 11:23:48] Uni Ninetails: and an increase to 1024 would hurt the estates no?
[2009-11-20 11:23:50] Sebastean Steamweaver: Nor am I using that logic.
[2009-11-20 11:23:53] Rex Cronon: i heard that therer game cards that pople can buy at supermarkets(for 30, 60, 90 days) whay can't u buy one such cards for SL?
[2009-11-20 11:23:59] Jonit Ivory: but you have land, are you basic on principle?
[2009-11-20 11:23:59] Hadley Yoshikawa: Some take it very seriously, some don't.
[2009-11-20 11:24:06] Xugu Madison: nods to Uni "I was just thinking that, you'd see a massive backlash from the estates"
[2009-11-20 11:24:14] Jonit Ivory: Hadley, yes, this is the point also
[2009-11-20 11:24:17] Jonit Ivory: it's a VW
[2009-11-20 11:24:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: So, even viewing it as a game, it makes sense :P
[2009-11-20 11:24:23] Jonit Ivory: outside our lives
[2009-11-20 11:24:29] Morgaine Dinova: As technology progresses, services always offer more for the same price. SL hasn't, so it's getting progressively less interesting with time.
[2009-11-20 11:24:30] Hadley Yoshikawa: Yes and no.
[2009-11-20 11:24:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: People find something they like in here, they get their friends to play.
[2009-11-20 11:24:42] Hadley Yoshikawa: A fee decreses the subscriber base.
[2009-11-20 11:24:43] Hadley Yoshikawa: Period.
[2009-11-20 11:24:44] Sebastean Steamweaver: That's one of the major ways MMOs do their recruitment.
[2009-11-20 11:24:46] Xugu Madison: and charging from accounts would be a problem for us because we like to bring students in for part of their courses. That's not of absolutely no value to us, but it's certainly not a consequential amount per student
[2009-11-20 11:24:50] Uni Ninetails: It is an entertainment platfrom in which i have a vested business interest.
[2009-11-20 11:24:52] Sebastean Steamweaver: That wasn't true for WoW lol
[2009-11-20 11:25:09] Xugu Madison: We've actually been using OpenSim, but if it makes the Lindens feel any better the physics model keeps crashing on us :(
[2009-11-20 11:25:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: WoW charges for every account, but offers limited free trials.
[2009-11-20 11:25:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: They have an ENORMOUS user base.
[2009-11-20 11:25:28] Jonit Ivory: so does SL
[2009-11-20 11:25:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: Most MMOs follow that same model.
[2009-11-20 11:25:36] Katiri Hynes: WOW is a 500LB gorilla... you can't compare anything to it.
[2009-11-20 11:25:37] Hadley Yoshikawa: Yes, and most of them suck.
[2009-11-20 11:25:38] Jonit Ivory: but repeat monthlies are a low percentage
[2009-11-20 11:25:39] Sebastean Steamweaver: SL's is a fraction of the MMO platforms.
[2009-11-20 11:25:40] Jonit Ivory: why is that?
[2009-11-20 11:25:43] Melchizedek Blauvelt: The WoW user base was there before free trials
[2009-11-20 11:26:09] Rex Cronon: wow, doesn't have lag does it:)
[2009-11-20 11:26:17] Jonit Ivory: so ok, why did WoW do it?
[2009-11-20 11:26:23] Uni Ninetails: wow has static assets.
[2009-11-20 11:26:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: That's a matter of opinion Hadley, but the point is, people will pay a one-time fee, just as they are willing to pay a -higher- monthly fee for something they enjoy.
[2009-11-20 11:26:29] Jonit Ivory: because the platform gives reasons to be there
[2009-11-20 11:26:31] Jonit Ivory: SL is flat
[2009-11-20 11:26:31] Techwolf Lupindo: WoW has fanatics, even before it launch. SL has prok.
[2009-11-20 11:26:36] Jonit Ivory: you have to make your own reasons
[2009-11-20 11:26:40] Jonit Ivory: you have to work at it
[2009-11-20 11:26:49] Jonit Ivory: that's exclusivity?
[2009-11-20 11:27:05] Jonit Ivory: I wuv prok
[2009-11-20 11:27:06] Hadley Yoshikawa: Jonit raises a valid point.
[2009-11-20 11:27:07] Sebastean Steamweaver: Basic - one time fee. Premium - 7X larger annual fee - not the same thing :P
[2009-11-20 11:27:19] Uni Ninetails: wonders if qarl cded his viewer to mke a loud noise when his name is mentioed and is currently coding :)
[2009-11-20 11:27:32] Hadley Yoshikawa: WoW has a point beyond standing around...built it.
[2009-11-20 11:27:35] Jonit Ivory: Sl is flat
[2009-11-20 11:27:39] Hadley Yoshikawa: SL, you have to invent every path you take.
[2009-11-20 11:27:45] Jonit Ivory: you are not given dragonish quests
[2009-11-20 11:27:52] Jonit Ivory: you are given a blank canvas
[2009-11-20 11:27:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: The same principle applies: if people enjoy it, they will pay (once) for it.
[2009-11-20 11:27:58] Jonit Ivory: this is difficult for many
[2009-11-20 11:27:58] Qarl Linden: hey - sorry bout that.
[2009-11-20 11:28:00] Hadley Yoshikawa: Maybe.
[2009-11-20 11:28:02] Uni Ninetails: lol
[2009-11-20 11:28:04] GoodCode Writer: lol
[2009-11-20 11:28:07] Uni Ninetails: you did didnt ya Qarl XD
[2009-11-20 11:28:07] Jonit Ivory: hello Wut
[2009-11-20 11:28:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: *shrugs* I would have, but I didn't have to.
[2009-11-20 11:28:14] Hadley Yoshikawa: What the fee does is get rid of the casual visitors.
[2009-11-20 11:28:19] Rex Cronon: wb
[2009-11-20 11:28:30] Jonit Ivory: Hadley, and many here
[2009-11-20 11:28:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hardly, Hadley - the fee isn't produced up front.
[2009-11-20 11:28:32] Hadley Yoshikawa: The person who gets on once or twice a month and won't show up to office hours.
[2009-11-20 11:28:36] Rex Cronon: is a pain right nw to pay foryour account
[2009-11-20 11:28:37] Katiri Hynes: fee also makes people accountable for their actions to a degree.
[2009-11-20 11:28:37] Wut Moorlord: hi all, sorry I had to switch from radegast for fear of sitting on someone's head :)
[2009-11-20 11:28:40] Jonit Ivory: you were casual visitors once
[2009-11-20 11:28:43] Rex Cronon: hi wut
[2009-11-20 11:28:46] Sebastean Steamweaver: The people's friends who invite them will say, "Trhe trial is free! You can stop if you like!"
[2009-11-20 11:28:48] Morgaine Dinova: So how can Premium be improved? So far we have 1) No death penalty, 2) More land. Anything else?
[2009-11-20 11:28:51] Jonit Ivory: was my head?
[2009-11-20 11:29:01] Wut Moorlord: sorry :)
[2009-11-20 11:29:06] Jonit Ivory: that sums up my views
[2009-11-20 11:29:12] Jonit Ivory: 1 and 2 Morgaine
[2009-11-20 11:29:20] Rex Cronon: why not sell game cards for SL at supermarkets:)
[2009-11-20 11:29:21] Melchizedek Blauvelt: 3) blacklisting?
[2009-11-20 11:29:26] Jonit Ivory: the democracy element is wunworkable
[2009-11-20 11:29:26] Sebastean Steamweaver: The people's friends are NOT going to say, "The trial is free, but oh no, you have to pay 10 bucks in 30 days if you want to keep your account)
[2009-11-20 11:29:31] Jonit Ivory: LL pulled town halls
[2009-11-20 11:29:32] Qarl Linden: 4) voting rights. :)
[2009-11-20 11:29:37] Hadley Yoshikawa: Ok, we get it, Sebastean. You want to require payment. Now let's move on to improving Premium.
[2009-11-20 11:29:39] Techwolf Lupindo: A decent stripend so all the preioum users can support all the content creaters here.
[2009-11-20 11:29:52] Jonit Ivory: Hmmm, Qarl, that is overextending the platform
[2009-11-20 11:29:57] GoodCode Writer: ha-ha
[2009-11-20 11:30:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hadley, there are benefits to requiring a fee that I think ought to be considered, which you apparently just want to brush over.
[2009-11-20 11:30:05] Jonit Ivory: you cannot make a homogenous democracy of a paid service
[2009-11-20 11:30:20] Hadley Yoshikawa: Actually, I'm trying to advance someone else's question without you shouting them down.
[2009-11-20 11:30:30] GoodCode Writer: Parameters
[2009-11-20 11:30:35] Hadley Yoshikawa: Since you're trying to make everything come back to a on-time fee.
[2009-11-20 11:30:45] Wut Moorlord: hmm. sorry, i missed the beginning what is the new suggested fee, and is it a one-off payment?
[2009-11-20 11:30:49] lonetorus Habilis: qarl, voting rights for what?
[2009-11-20 11:30:57] Rex Cronon: why can't that one time fee be a game card at a supermarket?
[2009-11-20 11:30:59] Jonit Ivory: is is the provider consumer model, not a true democracy
[2009-11-20 11:31:05] Techwolf Lupindo: To help combat griefting, limit basic accounts for 30 days or so. Even expand on that to severl level of restrictions.
[2009-11-20 11:31:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hadley, I've not been shouting anyone down - my caps button isn't stuck ;) I've been replying to your arguments on the debate.
[2009-11-20 11:31:33] Techwolf Lupindo: Limit as in what they can do, not limit the time the account is active.
[2009-11-20 11:31:45] Hadley Yoshikawa: Dear God...why not require everyone wear a taser collar so the estate owner can shock the griefer?
[2009-11-20 11:31:50] Rex Cronon: we selecta a local goverment, ll has vetoing powers:)
[2009-11-20 11:31:57] Uni Ninetails: free acount : 30days. Basic account: as is BUT requires a credit card on file. Premium: etc...
[2009-11-20 11:31:58] Jonit Ivory: Hadley, extreme, but yes
[2009-11-20 11:32:08] Jonit Ivory: Uni, seems ok
[2009-11-20 11:32:16] Jonit Ivory: but PIOF not money
[2009-11-20 11:32:16] Wut Moorlord: Uni, i'm ok with that
[2009-11-20 11:32:18] Sebastean Steamweaver: Exactly Uni
[2009-11-20 11:32:22] Uni Ninetails: :)
[2009-11-20 11:32:28] Jonit Ivory: just a free I am who I am registration
[2009-11-20 11:32:32] Uni Ninetails: then as Morg says basic doesnt get humped.
[2009-11-20 11:32:39] Morgaine Dinova: Qarl: you're going to get utterly hammered if you're seriously considering making voting rights depend on money. Get ready for it. Lots of thing are "for money", but voting rights have always been extended to the whole population in modern times. I don't recommend you go there.
[2009-11-20 11:32:41] Latif Khalifa: has anybody found out if there is an actual baton "i get to annoy sl residents" this month that gets passed around linden lab? :P
[2009-11-20 11:32:46] Hadley Yoshikawa: That's how you stop griefing, not by cutting off someone's abilities because they don't want to put credit information in the hands of a company.
[2009-11-20 11:32:59] Katiri Hynes: Morg - that's how the US congress works!
[2009-11-20 11:33:00] Rex Cronon: i am also fre and i don't grief. sayig that all free accounts r griefers is an insult:(
[2009-11-20 11:33:01] Jonit Ivory: Qarl is tablin that?, well yes, he seems to be
[2009-11-20 11:33:09] Wut Moorlord: lol katiri
[2009-11-20 11:33:13] Maggie Darwin: They're able to achieve higher parallelism than that; there's no mutex.
[2009-11-20 11:33:15] Hadley Yoshikawa: Especially given the number of reputable companies that lose credit info because they have crap security.
[2009-11-20 11:33:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, except I was thinking of a setup fee. The credit card on file, though, would help achieve the same thing.
[2009-11-20 11:33:22] Maggie Darwin: /pose seiza
[2009-11-20 11:33:23] Morgaine Dinova: Katiri -- nobody claimed that Congress is democratic
[2009-11-20 11:33:30] Jonit Ivory: it is an insult, but anonimity is the mechanism whereby non PIOF users can grief
[2009-11-20 11:33:42] Hadley Yoshikawa: No, it wouldn't. Seb.
[2009-11-20 11:33:49] Jonit Ivory: so there has to be accountability
[2009-11-20 11:33:50] Jonit Ivory: as in RL
[2009-11-20 11:33:51] Hadley Yoshikawa: I don't trust any corporation with my credit card number
[2009-11-20 11:33:54] Jonit Ivory: to be who you are
[2009-11-20 11:34:00] Morgaine Dinova: Seb: no chance
[2009-11-20 11:34:02] Jonit Ivory: but that does not extent to paying to prive it
[2009-11-20 11:34:03] Hadley Yoshikawa: BEcause there is no backlash on them if they lose it to a hack.
[2009-11-20 11:34:10] Jonit Ivory: prove*
[2009-11-20 11:34:15] Galactus Crimson: UhOh O.o*
[2009-11-20 11:34:15] Sebastean Steamweaver: So use paypal *shrugs*
[2009-11-20 11:34:25] Hadley Yoshikawa: Same issue.
[2009-11-20 11:34:26] Jonit Ivory: inadmissable
[2009-11-20 11:34:33] Maggie Darwin: Um....you mustr trust *some* corporation with yout CC number....or you never actually use it.
[2009-11-20 11:34:34] Hadley Yoshikawa: they can then do the same.
[2009-11-20 11:34:35] Rex Cronon: for what i know those that grief can very well be paying account that ike togief for lolz:)
[2009-11-20 11:34:42] Jonit Ivory: well ok ok Sebastean, Paypal does provide a legal pepertrail
[2009-11-20 11:34:45] Sebastean Steamweaver: Paypal gives you throw-away credit card numbers to use in online shopping to prevent that very thing.
[2009-11-20 11:34:59] Hadley Yoshikawa: And when their database is taken?
[2009-11-20 11:35:01] Rex Cronon: that like to grief for lolz*
[2009-11-20 11:35:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: You have a very pessimistic view Hadley :)
[2009-11-20 11:35:15] Xugu Madison: A lot of credit card companies allow merchants to set up recurring payments which don't require keeping the number, from what I've seen...
[2009-11-20 11:35:20] Hadley Yoshikawa: I have a very realistic view, sparky.
[2009-11-20 11:35:35] Hadley Yoshikawa: That you dont' realize that means you have been very fortunate.
[2009-11-20 11:35:42] Techwolf Lupindo: Make preioum more attractive and make basic less attractive to grifters.
[2009-11-20 11:35:48] Jonit Ivory: if you make it more difficult to register a throwaway
[2009-11-20 11:35:53] Al Sonic: I believe Hadley's just looking to make sure any said security failure would be punished <.<
[2009-11-20 11:35:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: That's one way to look at it Hadley. Personally I take a very different "realistic' view.
[2009-11-20 11:36:02] Morgaine Dinova: Ideas for improving Premium: 1) No death penalty, 2) More land, 3) Blacklisting (what?), 4) Voting rights ..... moar?
[2009-11-20 11:36:02] Jonit Ivory: most grieferes (aside from teh hardcore) will move on
[2009-11-20 11:36:16] Hadley Yoshikawa: Besides, if you dont' want griefing on your lands, don't allow access to anyone who isn't PIOF
[2009-11-20 11:36:18] Hadley Yoshikawa: already there
[2009-11-20 11:36:19] Jonit Ivory: 3?
[2009-11-20 11:36:23] Jonit Ivory: explain 3 Morgaine
[2009-11-20 11:36:31] Melchizedek Blauvelt: 5) make mesh import available to premium members only
[2009-11-20 11:36:37] Wut Moorlord: Mel :P
[2009-11-20 11:36:40] Jonit Ivory: No no no
[2009-11-20 11:36:41] Sebastean Steamweaver: I already don't Hadley - I was referring to preventing greifing on more public areas ;)
[2009-11-20 11:36:44] Morgaine Dinova: Jonit: 3) is not my idea, someone else needs to explain it
[2009-11-20 11:36:50] Techwolf Lupindo: Joint, 3=exitsting land control that limit to payment on file.
[2009-11-20 11:36:53] Jonit Ivory: Yes I hoe they do
[2009-11-20 11:36:56] Rex Cronon: melchizedek. u must be pulling my leg
[2009-11-20 11:36:58] Hadley Yoshikawa: You can't stop somebody from being an asshole, no matter what you do.
[2009-11-20 11:37:01] Hadley Yoshikawa: pardon the language.
[2009-11-20 11:37:04] Jonit Ivory: Hmmm, ok I see it
[2009-11-20 11:37:07] Qarl Linden: someone else suggested 6) higher stipend
[2009-11-20 11:37:08] Jonit Ivory: peripheral
[2009-11-20 11:37:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: But you can boot them for it :P
[2009-11-20 11:37:14] Jonit Ivory: and as for content creation limits
[2009-11-20 11:37:15] Jonit Ivory: NO!
[2009-11-20 11:37:25] Melchizedek Blauvelt: I noticed people asking why they couldn't equip X, they got a message X was a blacklisted item
[2009-11-20 11:37:32] Xugu Madison: You could, of course, make mainland premium-only (and give private estate owners tools to block basic accounts if they chooose)?
[2009-11-20 11:37:38] Maggie Darwin: /pose
[2009-11-20 11:37:56] Melchizedek Blauvelt: The response was the item was blacklisted because it was copybotted and banned from the grid
[2009-11-20 11:38:14] Jonit Ivory: fine, that is for LL to work to
[2009-11-20 11:38:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: I wouldn't really like that Xugu. It kind of opens it up to a lot of discrimination.
[2009-11-20 11:38:28] Rex Cronon: there is one thing thataffects everybody. i am talking about monies
[2009-11-20 11:38:30] Sebastean Steamweaver: I don't want to make Basic accounts all suspect of bad things by default.
[2009-11-20 11:38:34] Hadley Yoshikawa: And requiring payment to exist doesn't?
[2009-11-20 11:38:51] Jonit Ivory: you can't ghettoise (sp) SL
[2009-11-20 11:38:52] Sebastean Steamweaver: No, it doesn't :P
[2009-11-20 11:38:54] Morgaine Dinova: Ideas for improving Premium: 1) No death penalty, 2) More land, 3) Blacklisting on your parcel, 4) Voting rights, 5) Mesh import allowed, 6) Higher stipend
[2009-11-20 11:39:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: Now who's bringing it back to fee'd accounts? ;)
[2009-11-20 11:39:16] Rex Cronon: if u have to buy a game card and u grief u loose the monies
[2009-11-20 11:39:20] Jonit Ivory: cancel Stipend
[2009-11-20 11:39:33] Jonit Ivory: it equates to giving you back what you paid
[2009-11-20 11:39:35] Sebastean Steamweaver: Higher stipden I could see.
[2009-11-20 11:39:36] Jonit Ivory: pointless
[2009-11-20 11:39:44] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yep, someone mentioned that.
[2009-11-20 11:39:45] Jonit Ivory: lower premium costs
[2009-11-20 11:40:07] Morgaine Dinova: Jonit: it's just a means of automatic conversion of some $ to L$, hence helps merchants
[2009-11-20 11:40:27] Jonit Ivory: it is silly that I pay LL 72 dollars a year annual and get umm whatever it is 50 back
[2009-11-20 11:40:29] Hadley Yoshikawa: Merchants should be helping themselves, not expecting Lenin Labs to stimulate them.
[2009-11-20 11:40:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: A while back, I recieved a survey for merchanting on SLX
[2009-11-20 11:40:39] Jonit Ivory: let me pay 12
[2009-11-20 11:40:43] Sebastean Steamweaver: They talked about setting up a featured item mall, having access to SLX in-world vendors, etc.
[2009-11-20 11:40:46] Jonit Ivory: and leave it at that
[2009-11-20 11:40:47] Maggie Darwin: Crap. How much would I have to pay for a viewer that doesn't leak memory?
[2009-11-20 11:40:57] JB Hancroft: Maggie... a lot ;)
[2009-11-20 11:40:59] Hadley Yoshikawa: Well, they are free
[2009-11-20 11:41:06] Hadley Yoshikawa: They just aren't distributed by LL
[2009-11-20 11:41:09] Morgaine Dinova: lol Maggie, not gonna add 7) Viewer that works ^_^
[2009-11-20 11:41:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: Perhaps they should make that accessiblet o premium accounts.
[2009-11-20 11:41:14] Jonit Ivory: wut wut?
[2009-11-20 11:41:23] Jonit Ivory: umm deference to Wut if he is here
[2009-11-20 11:41:29] Jonit Ivory: they do exist
[2009-11-20 11:41:32] Wut Moorlord: waves
[2009-11-20 11:41:35] Zenvendof Zeno: Wut
[2009-11-20 11:41:35] Jonit Ivory: Hai
[2009-11-20 11:41:36] Jonit Ivory: !!
[2009-11-20 11:41:37] Maggie Darwin: Wut if he is?
[2009-11-20 11:41:37] Zenvendof Zeno: yoohooo
[2009-11-20 11:41:38] Morgaine Dinova: Wut wut!
[2009-11-20 11:41:41] Maggie Darwin: *giggle*
[2009-11-20 11:41:45] GoodCode Writer: what about prople who have basic account and a lot of money
[2009-11-20 11:41:52] Reverend Upshaw: hi folks
[2009-11-20 11:41:52] GoodCode Writer: money - L$
[2009-11-20 11:41:58] JB Hancroft: hi Rev
[2009-11-20 11:42:05] Rex Cronon: hi
[2009-11-20 11:42:06] Hadley Yoshikawa: They will lose if they don't pay their taxes, goodcode
[2009-11-20 11:42:11] Zenvendof Zeno: oops
[2009-11-20 11:42:13] Maggie Darwin: *I* have a basic account, even though my family owns an island sim.
[2009-11-20 11:42:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: Same with me Maggie. I share an island with two friends of mine.
[2009-11-20 11:42:34] Maggie Darwin: Because I would get zero benefit from upgrading.
[2009-11-20 11:42:36] Uni Ninetails: hell i have a basic and have a fullsim. by proxy
[2009-11-20 11:42:36] Jonit Ivory: ummm, anyine else noticed that Qarl and Nyx are no longer contributing?
[2009-11-20 11:42:46] JB Hancroft: nods
[2009-11-20 11:42:46] Jonit Ivory: this is becoming another forum thread
[2009-11-20 11:42:48] Latif Khalifa: there were contributing?
[2009-11-20 11:42:53] Uni Ninetails: cause were offtopic?
[2009-11-20 11:42:53] Latif Khalifa: lol
[2009-11-20 11:42:53] Wut Moorlord: they've nipped off for a coffee
[2009-11-20 11:42:54] Qarl Linden: heh.
[2009-11-20 11:42:55] Hadley Yoshikawa: Someone TP in Ann
[2009-11-20 11:42:57] Qarl Linden: i'm listening.
[2009-11-20 11:42:58] Jonit Ivory: well at least being here
[2009-11-20 11:43:02] Katiri Hynes: lol @ Latif
[2009-11-20 11:43:02] Jonit Ivory: Hai
[2009-11-20 11:43:14] Jonit Ivory: Ann cannot tp!
[2009-11-20 11:43:14] Sebastean Steamweaver: They don't want to get their fingers burned XD
[2009-11-20 11:43:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: I don't blame them.
[2009-11-20 11:43:22] Latif Khalifa: it's the new LL policy :) cheese in the ears and recite lalalalalala
[2009-11-20 11:43:22] Zenvendof Zeno: ahhhh
[2009-11-20 11:43:23] Rex Cronon: i think the lindens prsent r enjoying the show
[2009-11-20 11:43:24] Maggie Darwin: Hey, let's all TP to Harrington while thy're not looking.
[2009-11-20 11:43:26] Jonit Ivory: nor do I
[2009-11-20 11:43:38] Zenvendof Zeno: May I ask what's the official topic?
[2009-11-20 11:43:41] Jonit Ivory: morgaine? running summary
[2009-11-20 11:43:53] Qarl Linden: i think we're talking about accounts.
[2009-11-20 11:43:56] Jonit Ivory: and I agree with all except the silly pay and get back stipend
[2009-11-20 11:44:00] Rex Cronon: but is very likey thatll already has plan
[2009-11-20 11:44:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: That's a nice generic summary :)
[2009-11-20 11:44:00] Maggie Darwin: [11:22
[2009-11-20 11:44:09] Hadley Yoshikawa: Whether to charge a one-time fee for basic and how to improve premium.
[2009-11-20 11:44:11] Morgaine Dinova: Since Qarl is working on a voting machine to make Premium more attractive (^_^ ^_^ ^_^), this is very much on topic :-)
[2009-11-20 11:44:15] Qarl Linden: oh dear.
[2009-11-20 11:44:17] Qarl Linden: heh.
[2009-11-20 11:44:18] Sebastean Steamweaver: I wouldn't quite call it the "death" of free accounts :P
[2009-11-20 11:44:19] Zenvendof Zeno: Maggie, thanks
[2009-11-20 11:44:21] Jonit Ivory: YOU!
[2009-11-20 11:44:24] Jonit Ivory: Linden!
[2009-11-20 11:44:30] Rex Cronon: that ws whateverybdy wastalking about
[2009-11-20 11:44:32] Jonit Ivory: make it open source please :)
[2009-11-20 11:44:37] Maggie Darwin: A "voting machine"?
[2009-11-20 11:44:38] Zenvendof Zeno: So, what's this thing about death of free accounts
[2009-11-20 11:44:45] Maggie Darwin: How very Prok.
[2009-11-20 11:44:48] Katiri Hynes: Qarl = Diebold?
[2009-11-20 11:44:50] Latif Khalifa: lol
[2009-11-20 11:44:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: I had been proposing a one-time $10 setup fee.
[2009-11-20 11:44:51] Jonit Ivory: (Prok has that)
[2009-11-20 11:44:55] Morgaine Dinova: lol
[2009-11-20 11:44:55] Jonit Ivory: (I voted)
[2009-11-20 11:44:58] Zenvendof Zeno: can Lindens elaborate on that?
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/57/107/26 (Starts in 15 minutes)
[2009-11-20 11:45:01] lonetorus Habilis: godwin!111
[2009-11-20 11:45:02] Hadley Yoshikawa: The biggest thing to make premium more attractive, I think, is to increase the amount of land at no increased tier.
[2009-11-20 11:45:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: Something you'd pay after a 30 day trial
[2009-11-20 11:45:15] Uni Ninetails: as this OH devolves into a total clusterfuck
[2009-11-20 11:45:20] Melchizedek Blauvelt: Just make future features more accessible to premium accounts and leave basic accounts as they are
[2009-11-20 11:45:21] Reverend Upshaw: i wouldn't be opposed to a one time fee
[2009-11-20 11:45:21] Morgaine Dinova: Haha
[2009-11-20 11:45:22] Sebastean Steamweaver: That was the "death" of free accounts.
[2009-11-20 11:45:33] Hadley Yoshikawa: I agree Mel.
[2009-11-20 11:45:41] Zenvendof Zeno: a fee to create an account?
[2009-11-20 11:45:46] Jonit Ivory: Rev, I have to disagree
[2009-11-20 11:45:48] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yes Zen
[2009-11-20 11:45:49] Hadley Yoshikawa: After a trial.
[2009-11-20 11:45:53] Zenvendof Zeno: you see a massive upsurge right before the fee comes on
[2009-11-20 11:45:55] Hadley Yoshikawa: Much like drugs. the first hit is free.
[2009-11-20 11:45:56] Jonit Ivory: I am not opposed to a one time registration
[2009-11-20 11:45:57] Sebastean Steamweaver: After a 30 day or so trial
[2009-11-20 11:45:58] Zenvendof Zeno: with free account registeration
[2009-11-20 11:46:01] Zenvendof Zeno: i bet with u
[2009-11-20 11:46:03] Larry Massey: it would help if someone could articulate waht is the "problem" being solved?
[2009-11-20 11:46:04] Maggie Darwin: I'd say make a basic account free for 90 days. If you're still in at that point you're hooked.
[2009-11-20 11:46:06] Jonit Ivory: whether you need money for it is anoher matter
[2009-11-20 11:46:08] Zenvendof Zeno: and there will be a black market selling them
[2009-11-20 11:46:12] Latif Khalifa: people here are forgetting that not everybody lives in the usa, and has access to credit cards and payment methods and such
[2009-11-20 11:46:14] Qarl Linden: Zenvendof - people are just throwing around ideas. there's no official policy discussion here.
[2009-11-20 11:46:14] Zenvendof Zeno: outside SL
[2009-11-20 11:46:17] Techwolf Lupindo: heh, that make it so only grifter use trail accounts.
[2009-11-20 11:46:20] Jonit Ivory: and I do not think you should need to
[2009-11-20 11:46:37] Al Sonic: In the hypothetical scenario, I'd give up the US$10... I'd have to think about it for my two alts.
[2009-11-20 11:46:39] Larry Massey: before getting into the "how it could be hacked and what counter-measures to put into place to avoid the hacks"
[2009-11-20 11:46:40] Hadley Yoshikawa: I would like tp propose a change to Sebastean's idea, if I may....Cancel the "upgrade" fee if they purchase L$.
[2009-11-20 11:46:44] Zenvendof Zeno: Qarl, ok thanks :)
[2009-11-20 11:46:51] Morgaine Dinova: Free accounts are the future of SL, funnily enough. I think Premium accounts will disappear once there is competition, as they're a disincentive to recruitment. It'll follow the web model --- all recruitment is free.
[2009-11-20 11:46:58] Maggie Darwin: I do grow weary of people complaining about VATs and monetary controls. Go complain to your government.
[2009-11-20 11:47:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: Free registration - 30 days of access - pay 10 bucks to continue (one time) OR keep free accounts - improve benefits to premium users so that ugprading becomes more attractive
[2009-11-20 11:47:19] JB Hancroft: Can I get a re-statement, please, of what's causing this ....? It seems like there are sweeping changes across SL mostly at the same time. Was there some exec-level directive about cost cutting, or increased revenue, or... what's the intent here?
[2009-11-20 11:47:19] Morgaine Dinova: Seb: you're way out in limbo land there :-)
[2009-11-20 11:47:20] Zenvendof Zeno: Maggie, you clearly not from the EU.....
[2009-11-20 11:47:28] Maggie Darwin: Damned right I'm not.
[2009-11-20 11:47:34] Morgaine Dinova: Seb: you're trying to *reduce* recruitment :-)
[2009-11-20 11:47:47] Zenvendof Zeno: Maggie, welll so you not playing 17.5% vat :)
[2009-11-20 11:47:57] Uni Ninetails: shit vat goes up in jan doesnt it gah
[2009-11-20 11:48:03] Hadley Yoshikawa: complain to your government...they impose the tax.
[2009-11-20 11:48:05] Zenvendof Zeno: ah huh
[2009-11-20 11:48:09] Zenvendof Zeno: we don complain
[2009-11-20 11:48:11] Qarl Linden: any more ideas to improve the premium package?
[2009-11-20 11:48:13] Zenvendof Zeno: it's a fact of life
[2009-11-20 11:48:14] Maggie Darwin: No, I'm not. Go complain to the government that's collecting it.
[2009-11-20 11:48:20] Zenvendof Zeno: we have freebie health care
[2009-11-20 11:48:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: whispers: I don't see it as reducing it - people will think 30 days is a "
[2009-11-20 11:48:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: long time"
[2009-11-20 11:48:33] Jonit Ivory: Sebastean
[2009-11-20 11:48:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: They'll probably expect to throw it away before then.
[2009-11-20 11:48:34] Hadley Yoshikawa: for premium, separate mute list for avatars and items.
[2009-11-20 11:48:40] Hadley Yoshikawa: Mine is unmanageable on both fronts.
[2009-11-20 11:48:47] Jonit Ivory: a wave of <30 greifing as they do now
[2009-11-20 11:48:53] Zenvendof Zeno: So why death of freebie accounts, why charge?
[2009-11-20 11:48:54] Uni Ninetails: Qarl see ***** blog for mine.
[2009-11-20 11:48:57] Sebastean Steamweaver: Someone mentioned "more groups for premium accounts" yesterday
[2009-11-20 11:48:57] Morgaine Dinova: [11:48
[2009-11-20 11:48:57] Morgaine Dinova: Help Qarl folks
[2009-11-20 11:49:31] Hadley Yoshikawa: 1. More land 2. Lower monthly and no stipend
[2009-11-20 11:49:35] Hadley Yoshikawa: That's the best way.
[2009-11-20 11:49:38] Latif Khalifa: Qarl, how about not banning people who forget to update payment info. Right now permium account is more dangereous to have than free one
[2009-11-20 11:49:49] Larry Massey: right now the only attraction of "premium" is "buying land"
[2009-11-20 11:49:53] Latif Khalifa: you miss one payment, your account gets suspended
[2009-11-20 11:49:55] Larry Massey: and land buying on the mainland is a mystery
[2009-11-20 11:49:55] Reverend Upshaw: that's a good idea latif
[2009-11-20 11:50:01] Wut Moorlord: hmm. yeah. how about some way to freeze premium goodies if you forget to pay
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/57/107/26 (Starts in 10 minutes)
[2009-11-20 11:50:02] Hadley Yoshikawa: Indeed, Latif.
[2009-11-20 11:50:03] Qarl Linden: more groups is a good idea - we limit groups now b/c they are too "heavy" a load. but if you're paying for it - i can see us upping the number.
[2009-11-20 11:50:04] Larry Massey: which land is good, which isn't, is completely opaque
[2009-11-20 11:50:05] Morgaine Dinova: 7) OpenID ! (Both OpenID Provider and OpenID Relying Party)
[2009-11-20 11:50:08] Wut Moorlord: rather than booting you off the face of the planet
[2009-11-20 11:50:08] Hadley Yoshikawa: Some sort of grace period, with reminders.
[2009-11-20 11:50:12] Latif Khalifa: instead of auto-downgrade to free
[2009-11-20 11:50:20] Al Sonic: There's the aforementioned stuff that involves hard coding work like raising group limits >_>
[2009-11-20 11:50:27] Reverend Upshaw: openid is a great idea
[2009-11-20 11:50:32] Latif Khalifa: a very good friend of mine got their account deleted that way :(
[2009-11-20 11:50:37] Hadley Yoshikawa: I like openID too
[2009-11-20 11:50:40] Jonit Ivory: I think the best premium is citizenship
[2009-11-20 11:50:44] Latif Khalifa: a long time user of SL, since 2006
[2009-11-20 11:50:47] Jonit Ivory: no arbitrary bans
[2009-11-20 11:50:55] Al Sonic: Cool thought Morgaine.
[2009-11-20 11:50:58] Jonit Ivory: if people premium
[2009-11-20 11:51:00] Jonit Ivory: they invest
[2009-11-20 11:51:07] Larry Massey: am I wrong about the land issue as the primary advantage?
[2009-11-20 11:51:10] Jonit Ivory: they should not be banned willy nilly
[2009-11-20 11:51:16] Morgaine Dinova: Ideas for improving Premium: 1) No death penalty, 2) More land, 3) Blacklisting on your parcel, 4) Voting rights, 5) Mesh import allowed, 6) Higher stipend, 7) OpenID (OP and RP), 8) More groups
[2009-11-20 11:51:20] Hadley Yoshikawa: so a court system for premiums?
[2009-11-20 11:51:29] Jonit Ivory: that's 1 on Morgaine's list
[2009-11-20 11:51:30] Jonit Ivory: yes
[2009-11-20 11:51:38] Jonit Ivory: not court
[2009-11-20 11:51:40] Maggie Darwin: [1]
[2009-11-20 11:51:41] Qarl Linden: elected judges for the court system?
[2009-11-20 11:51:44] Jonit Ivory: I doubt LL want to go that far
[2009-11-20 11:51:46] Qarl Linden: voting!
[2009-11-20 11:51:50] Hadley Yoshikawa: How about premiums can buck up their full-perm or created inventory?
[2009-11-20 11:51:51] Rex Cronon: what about if a premium griefs they have to pay a fine:)
[2009-11-20 11:51:56] Morgaine Dinova: (I'm not advocating all of these, just summarizing people's ideas)
[2009-11-20 11:51:57] Hadley Yoshikawa: gah, back up
[2009-11-20 11:52:00] Bronson Blackadder: the more land you have the higher the stipend... with a cap
[2009-11-20 11:52:01] Jonit Ivory: byt GTeam need to have a flag up to investigate further at least
[2009-11-20 11:52:05] Hadley Yoshikawa: and self-created
[2009-11-20 11:52:09] Jonit Ivory: how you work it, I dunno
[2009-11-20 11:52:17] Melchizedek Blauvelt: I'll sure be nice to you Rex
[2009-11-20 11:52:17] Hadley Yoshikawa: kill stipend and recuce tier
[2009-11-20 11:52:18] Latif Khalifa: just not getting your account deleted if you are premium and change credit card would be a good start lol
[2009-11-20 11:52:19] Larry Massey: well, before *changing* the package, how about making the current benefits easier to access?
[2009-11-20 11:52:20] Rex Cronon: such fine should grow if more griefeing is doe;)
[2009-11-20 11:52:36] Jonit Ivory: but what I object to is the landscape appearing different to new and old residents
[2009-11-20 11:52:48] Rex Cronon: paying a fine is better than havin your account canceled:)
[2009-11-20 11:52:51] Qarl Linden: lanscape?
[2009-11-20 11:52:53] Maggie Darwin: Anything that involves "voting" will be a non-stop drama generator.
[2009-11-20 11:53:01] Jonit Ivory: I woant a day old av to think hey cool, and be able to create content the same as I do
[2009-11-20 11:53:11] Larry Massey: i think griefing is on the margin, you want to make premium more attractive to everyone
[2009-11-20 11:53:14] Qarl Linden: Maggie - agreed. democracy is messy.
[2009-11-20 11:53:16] Uni Ninetails: Yeah Maggie look at fashion show voting XD
[2009-11-20 11:53:21] Morgaine Dinova: Maggie: I agree ... but voting is being proposed, sadly in my view
[2009-11-20 11:53:22] Hadley Yoshikawa: I hope they create better content than you, Jonit.
[2009-11-20 11:53:27] Hadley Yoshikawa: The xcite sheep never worked right.
[2009-11-20 11:53:30] Rex Cronon: just like in rl. during voting dram is present:)
[2009-11-20 11:53:32] Maggie Darwin: Voting on *what*?
[2009-11-20 11:53:36] Wut Moorlord: yeah, losing any content creation abilities for new users would somewhat defeat the purpose of SL
[2009-11-20 11:53:36] Jonit Ivory: nods, I Z fight to anniy Torley
[2009-11-20 11:53:39] Rex Cronon: drama is present*
[2009-11-20 11:53:42] Jonit Ivory: annoy*
[2009-11-20 11:53:47] Morgaine Dinova: Maggie: unknown on what
[2009-11-20 11:53:53] Jonit Ivory: drama is an abstract term applied here
[2009-11-20 11:54:00] Maggie Darwin: Then it's not a proposal.
[2009-11-20 11:54:11] Morgaine Dinova: More the principle I think: votes for money (ew)
[2009-11-20 11:54:13] Bronson Blackadder: I vote no votes
[2009-11-20 11:54:16] Jonit Ivory: they and to quote an LL employee " are most likely ill in RL too"
[2009-11-20 11:54:17] Hadley Yoshikawa: How about premium can be given the ability to back up their self-created and full-perm inventory?
[2009-11-20 11:54:18] Qarl Linden: heh.
[2009-11-20 11:54:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: Andrew said yesterday, he wasn't interested in nickel and diming the residents, which I fully agree with. He said that changes that would make things better for everyone, should be given to everyone.
[2009-11-20 11:54:21] Xugu Madison: ...the xcite sheep... I was better not paying attention
[2009-11-20 11:54:29] Jonit Ivory: Xcite sheep?
[2009-11-20 11:54:33] Jonit Ivory: SLURL?
[2009-11-20 11:54:36] Jonit Ivory: Nao!
[2009-11-20 11:54:40] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[2009-11-20 11:54:40] Xugu Madison: Hadley said it earlier!
[2009-11-20 11:54:50] Maggie Darwin: Now there's a product that would sell. Esppecially to NZeds
[2009-11-20 11:54:50] Larry Massey: how about: new premium members are *given* land, not just "have right to buy"
[2009-11-20 11:54:53] Reverend Upshaw: figures jonit ;-)
[2009-11-20 11:54:56] Hadley Yoshikawa: The one stuck in your fence, Jonit.
[2009-11-20 11:54:57] JB Hancroft: What would the results of a "vote" be used for? I think you should consider carefully what's just happened with SLX... to avoid the same missteps.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/57/107/26 (Starts in 5 minutes)
[2009-11-20 11:55:05] Jonit Ivory: increase premium land to 1024
[2009-11-20 11:55:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: What about, instead of a premium/basic account system, you offer a services system?
[2009-11-20 11:55:07] Jonit Ivory: done
[2009-11-20 11:55:11] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, is that a 9), Larry?
[2009-11-20 11:55:23] Larry Massey: sure, make it easier to access the benefits
[2009-11-20 11:55:36] Jonit Ivory: yes Morgaine, or can I call you Lambkins
[2009-11-20 11:55:40] Larry Massey: and maybe pointed to freebie buildings they can customize
[2009-11-20 11:55:40] JB Hancroft: lol
[2009-11-20 11:55:46] Sebastean Steamweaver: LL offers chooseable services that peole can purchase access to for what they like. Most people who were at the meeting yesterday had a premium account for the land.
[2009-11-20 11:55:49] Uni Ninetails: qarls had it easy today
[2009-11-20 11:55:50] Maggie Darwin: Start "voting" in anything of substance, and you will be overrun with Prok-faced politicians grubbing for power.
[2009-11-20 11:55:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: So, have a service that allows access to land.
[2009-11-20 11:56:04] Jonit Ivory: Premium get 1024
[2009-11-20 11:56:05] Bronson Blackadder: prok
[2009-11-20 11:56:05] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[2009-11-20 11:56:06] Morgaine Dinova: Ideas for improving Premium: 1) No death penalty, 2) More land, 3) Blacklisting on your parcel, 4) Voting rights, 5) Mesh import allowed, 6) Higher stipend, 7) OpenID (OP and RP), 8) More groups, 9) Some (small) land free of cost or free of tier.
[2009-11-20 11:56:07] Jonit Ivory: I should JIRA this
[2009-11-20 11:56:12] Qarl Linden: Uni - well - the discussion is interesting, i think. :)
[2009-11-20 11:56:16] Hadley Yoshikawa: Benefit to premium: Cheaper or free uploads.
[2009-11-20 11:56:22] Jonit Ivory: Oh oh
[2009-11-20 11:56:24] Jonit Ivory: nice
[2009-11-20 11:56:24] Uni Ninetails: microtrasactions for services attached to accounts.
[2009-11-20 11:56:28] Jonit Ivory: Hadley that too
[2009-11-20 11:56:32] Qarl Linden: free uploads is GOOD.
[2009-11-20 11:56:39] Jonit Ivory: Yes, I like that
[2009-11-20 11:56:43] Sebastean Steamweaver: Even I'll agree to that one.
[2009-11-20 11:56:45] Uni Ninetails: building. land ownership. inventory. *ducks
[2009-11-20 11:56:49] Maggie Darwin: The best governance is the least governance. Even though Philip is gone, that's still true
[2009-11-20 11:56:55] Morgaine Dinova: Ideas for improving Premium: 1) No death penalty, 2) More land, 3) Blacklisting on your parcel, 4) Voting rights, 5) Mesh import allowed, 6) Higher stipend, 7) OpenID (OP and RP), 8) More groups, 9) Some (small) land free of cost or free of tier, 10) Free uploads
[2009-11-20 11:57:02] JB Hancroft: So Qarl, how soon should we expect to see an announcement about a new roadmap / policy decision for premium accounts.
[2009-11-20 11:57:02] Hadley Yoshikawa: That will be the best way to stimulate premiums and get content creators more likely to upgrade.
[2009-11-20 11:57:04] JB Hancroft: ?
[2009-11-20 11:57:07] Jonit Ivory: it allows them to build, but limits in a sexy way
[2009-11-20 11:57:13] Qarl Linden: JB - heh.
[2009-11-20 11:57:13] Jonit Ivory: free uploads
[2009-11-20 11:57:19] JB Hancroft: Clearly this discussion isn't "just for fun" ? :))
[2009-11-20 11:57:27] Qarl Linden: well...
[2009-11-20 11:57:33] Latif Khalifa: free? judging buy the recent Xstreet changes you will be charged for using services that load the backend. so expect L$50 group IM fee
[2009-11-20 11:57:33] Maggie Darwin: No doubt it's already written. Welcome to the retroactive brown bag.
[2009-11-20 11:57:36] Morgaine Dinova: Uni: I don't know what that mean, for an 11)
[2009-11-20 11:57:47] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[2009-11-20 11:57:51] Larry Massey: I'd really encourage doing things to improve the usability of the current premium offering before changing the offering
[2009-11-20 11:57:57] Uni Ninetails: free uploads, but how do you stop someone uploading a 4000 page images set for a book in a day thrashing out the asset servers and Morg neither do i.
[2009-11-20 11:58:04] Qarl Linden: this is sorta a topic we're wrestling with internally - so all these ideas are very interesting.
[2009-11-20 11:58:06] Latif Khalifa: your line contained 25 words, we deem that to be clutter, charged $24 lindens for it
[2009-11-20 11:58:11] Maggie Darwin: I myself wouldn't be here if I wasn't on vacation
[2009-11-20 11:58:13] Jonit Ivory: Uni, because you know who they are
[2009-11-20 11:58:19] Jonit Ivory: and free is not good
[2009-11-20 11:58:21] Wut Moorlord: Uni: you limit the upload rate? :P
[2009-11-20 11:58:25] lonetorus Habilis: well, it should be something that has a real cost, as andrew suggested, so perhaps some service like, included shoutacsh stream service for your land, when you become premium
[2009-11-20 11:58:28] Morgaine Dinova: Uni: *how* is a different issue, but since it's Premium, abuse would be controlled anyway
[2009-11-20 11:58:32] Jonit Ivory: I'd sau 2$L uploadss
[2009-11-20 11:58:34] Uni Ninetails: mumbles having mentioed all of this elsewhere and sighs
[2009-11-20 11:58:38] Jonit Ivory: just to keep it real
[2009-11-20 11:58:39] Al Sonic: Free uploads. Hm. Even if it were a limited amount provided like a stipend it'd be cool.
[2009-11-20 11:58:41] Wut Moorlord: hehe
[2009-11-20 11:58:44] Hadley Yoshikawa: even 5cuts the cost in half for creators
[2009-11-20 11:58:51] Jonit Ivory: or 5
[2009-11-20 11:58:53] Jonit Ivory: ok ok
[2009-11-20 11:59:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hadley, that'd mostly be for animators and sounds.
[2009-11-20 11:59:16] Larry Massey: if you want to broaden the number of people with premium accounts, don't make changes that only appeal to people who already have premium accounts
[2009-11-20 11:59:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: Unless LL plans on removing access to free temp uploads on textures.
[2009-11-20 11:59:37] Uni Ninetails: jesus h christ dont say that youll jynx it
[2009-11-20 11:59:43] Jonit Ivory: they can't
[2009-11-20 11:59:44] Larry Massey: ducks
[2009-11-20 11:59:46] Qarl Linden: Sebastean - that's a feature of the emerald viewer - yes?
[2009-11-20 11:59:50] Jonit Ivory: Emerald does that clientside
[2009-11-20 11:59:56] Qarl Linden: i don't think we'd mess with that.
[2009-11-20 11:59:56] lonetorus Habilis: or how about 1 minute sounds for premiums, instead of 10 seconds
[2009-11-20 11:59:58] Qarl Linden: or try to.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/57/107/26 (Starts now)
[2009-11-20 12:00:03] Jonit Ivory: although I am seeing more stores with grey textures
[2009-11-20 12:00:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: Ah-ha, I misunderstood how it did it then.
[2009-11-20 12:00:14] Jonit Ivory: ooppsie applied temp and forgot
[2009-11-20 12:00:18] Jonit Ivory: it's amusing
[2009-11-20 12:00:28] Xugu Madison: tends to use the beta grid when she's playing with textures...
[2009-11-20 12:00:28] Morgaine Dinova: lone: shall we add that as 11)?
[2009-11-20 12:00:33] Uni Ninetails: Jonit: Ive made a few mistakes with temps... need a way to tell whats a temp and whats not if there isnt alrady
[2009-11-20 12:00:48] Bronson Blackadder: a water mark
[2009-11-20 12:00:49] Qarl Linden: Sebastean - it's just local for the one person... it drops a copy of the asset into your cache, but doesn't upload it to the server.
[2009-11-20 12:00:50] Maggie Darwin: OH, in the funny shit that happened on server 1.32" department...SVC-3580 is back. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3580
[2009-11-20 12:00:50] Jonit Ivory: grey, with an alt on another PC
[2009-11-20 12:00:57] Xugu Madison: I have to run, take care all!
[2009-11-20 12:00:59] Sebastean Steamweaver: nods
[2009-11-20 12:01:01] Jonit Ivory: or a friend who is willing to check
[2009-11-20 12:01:01] GoodCode Writer: writing notecard with premium..or some other special funtions in scripts (group inviting...lalala)
[2009-11-20 12:01:07] lonetorus Habilis: morgaine, well, what about my suggestion of free shoutcast server for premiums suggestion?
[2009-11-20 12:01:09] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Xugu
[2009-11-20 12:01:13] Qarl Linden: hey guys - times up.
[2009-11-20 12:01:13] Uni Ninetails: Jonit: not really ive temped somthing and a second person can see it.
[2009-11-20 12:01:22] JB Hancroft: bye Xugu
[2009-11-20 12:01:22] Qarl Linden: Uni?
[2009-11-20 12:01:25] Jonit Ivory: same PC?
[2009-11-20 12:01:27] Morgaine Dinova: lone: Good idea!
[2009-11-20 12:01:27] Al Sonic: Really, with these uploads, you have to consider what it would do to the interactions between free and paid members..
[2009-11-20 12:01:33] Jonit Ivory: nope, should not be possible
[2009-11-20 12:01:34] Sebastean Steamweaver: Does LL keep the credit information of premium accounts?
[2009-11-20 12:01:36] Uni Ninetails: different pc different ISP
[2009-11-20 12:01:41] Rex Cronon: tc
[2009-11-20 12:01:43] Jonit Ivory: Uni, file JIRA
[2009-11-20 12:01:52] Melchizedek Blauvelt: awww Qarl, see you next week hopefully
[2009-11-20 12:01:52] Latif Khalifa: Qarl, are you trying to get to snowglobe side of thing? loads of more fun there :)
[2009-11-20 12:01:56] Al Sonic: jira feature meta-issue?
[2009-11-20 12:02:04] Uni Ninetails: why it works doesnt it?
[2009-11-20 12:02:04] Jonit Ivory: they are pseudoreferences clientside
[2009-11-20 12:02:16] Qarl Linden: i'm squarely sitting inside the meshes project... for now.
[2009-11-20 12:02:19] Jonit Ivory: I cannot see how you saw that behaviour
[2009-11-20 12:02:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: Thanks for putting up with us Qarl :) I should have talked about rendering text on a prim like I planned to XD
[2009-11-20 12:02:20] Morgaine Dinova: Ideas for improving Premium: 1) No death penalty, 2) More land, 3) Blacklisting on your parcel, 4) Voting rights, 5) Mesh import allowed, 6) Higher stipend, 7) OpenID (OP and RP), 8) More groups, 9) Some (small) land free of cost or free of tier, 10) Free uploads, 11) Free shoutcast service.
[2009-11-20 12:02:20] Qarl Linden: but gotta go.
[2009-11-20 12:02:24] GoodCode Writer: bb
[2009-11-20 12:02:24] Maggie Darwin: "MISC-12345: Now How Much Would You Pay?"
[2009-11-20 12:02:31] Rex Cronon: tc qarl
[2009-11-20 12:02:35] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Qarl, have fun with voting machine ^_^
[2009-11-20 12:02:35] Uni Ninetails: tc Qarl have a good weekend
[2009-11-20 12:02:37] Qarl Linden: great conversation guys. thanks much.
[2009-11-20 12:02:40] Jonit Ivory: thankies Qarl
[2009-11-20 12:02:47] Morgaine Dinova: is kidding (probably)

User:Qarl Linden/Office Hours/2009 11 20

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