User:Tao Takashi/Chatlog from 2007/09/16

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 [2007-09-16 21::43:48] Gigs: otakup0pe: The concern there was from Adam
 [2007-09-16 21::55:14] Tao_T: Hi Gigs :)
 [2007-09-16 21::55:46] Gigs: oh yeah
 [2007-09-16 21::56:08] Tao_T: as long as there are no scripts etc. involved
 [2007-09-16 21::56:17] Gigs: SL as a bunch of fragmented islands is not the same
 [2007-09-16 21::56:21] Tao_T: the mailing list seems more about not being connected right now ;-)
 [2007-09-16 21::56:50] Gigs: well I think there could be scripts, they would just have to be limited
 [2007-09-16 21::57:01] Tao_T: they might take into account that they can be suspended
 [2007-09-16 21::57:16] Gigs: I really don't want to see SL go the way of portals so much
 [2007-09-16 21::57:29] Tao_T: I mean for some really private space that would be nice to have
 [2007-09-16 21::57:43] Gigs: yeah
 [2007-09-16 21::57:53] Tao_T: actually like islands these days but maybe less expensive
 [2007-09-16 21::58:06] Gigs: well there's the basement idea
 [2007-09-16 21::58:09] Tao_T: and does not need to be that big, might even be temporary
 [2007-09-16 21::58:20] Gigs: a disconnected space exactly the same size as and connected to a regular region
 [2007-09-16 21::58:30] Tao_T: why the same size?
 [2007-09-16 21::58:32] Gigs: that would share resources and prims
 [2007-09-16 21::58:59] Tao_T: ah, you think technically ;-)
 [2007-09-16 21::59:01] Gigs: so that havok doesn't puke
 [2007-09-16 21::59:05] Tao_T: I right now think more in the open ;-)
 [2007-09-16 21::59:24] Gigs: there's value in that too :)
 [2007-09-16 21::59:39] Tao_T: well, for the upcoming architecture there should be value in that :)
 [2007-09-16 22::00:36] Gigs: I'd hope so!
 [2007-09-16 22::00:47] Tao_T: but then you cannot create completely different regions
 [2007-09-16 22::01:24] Gigs: I see what you mean, I think the best way to go for this first pass is to get 100% of what we have now, but make the architecture design simple and extensible
 [2007-09-16 22::01:37] Tao_T: like if you would want to recreate EVE online you would need a different viewer for all the game logic
 [2007-09-16 22::01:43] Gigs: leave it open ended in terms of capabilities but aim for what we have now as a target
 [2007-09-16 22::01:58] Tao_T: my idea is to think completely in the open but also take into account what we have right now
 [2007-09-16 22::02:27] Gigs: well that's one thing we need to work on documenting
 [2007-09-16 22::02:28] Tao_T: and of course what we have right now will be the short term target
 [2007-09-16 22::02:52] Gigs: all we need to do is avoid putting in unnecessary assumptions
 [2007-09-16 22::02:57] Tao_T: need to put that into the wiki
 [2007-09-16 22::03:13] Gigs: we can design for 256 meter regions, and as long as that is not hard coded anywhere then it's all ok
 [2007-09-16 22::03:21] Tao_T: what is an asset, what is an object, what's a region (can it be a webpage?)
 [2007-09-16 22::03:51] Gigs: but there will have to be some arbitrary constraings
 [2007-09-16 22::04:12] Tao_T: think of EVE, you have a solar system as a region
 [2007-09-16 22::04:46] Gigs: if we do something non-cartesian we need to make sure the cartesian case is still easy
 [2007-09-16 22::04:53] Tao_T: and I cannot login to SL
 [2007-09-16 22::05:02] Gigs: right now?
 [2007-09-16 22::05:11] Tao_T: yep
 [2007-09-16 22::05:58] Gigs: we do need to consider technical issues on one level
 [2007-09-16 22::06:18] Tao_T: sure, but after the use case brainstorming ;-)
 [2007-09-16 22::06:29] Gigs: hehe I'm just saying I think that's premature
 [2007-09-16 22::06:36] Tao_T: well, I am not sure the protocol between viewer and region will change that much for now
 [2007-09-16 22::06:45] Gigs: we should document existing use cases, only then document potential use cases
 [2007-09-16 22::06:49] Tao_T: again the login packet thing...
 [2007-09-16 22::07:02] Gigs: then we find a solution where the existing use cases are easy, and the potential use cases are still possible
 [2007-09-16 22::07:29] Tao_T: so the region does not want me
 [2007-09-16 22::07:33] Gigs: hehe
 [2007-09-16 22::07:36] Tao_T: waiting for region handshake...
 [2007-09-16 22::08:04] Gigs: so you got in
 [2007-09-16 22::12:08] Tao_T: I know
 [2007-09-16 22::13:41] Gigs: hehe
 [2007-09-16 22::14:22] Tao_T: glad I don't have tenants ;-)
 [2007-09-16 22::14:59] Gigs: it's a good amount of work but the pay off is decent
 [2007-09-16 22::16:25] Tao_T: well, it would be nice to have something going on on my sim ;-)
 [2007-09-16 22::20:03] otakup0pe: Gigs: oh i see what you mean
 [2007-09-16 22::20:06] Tao_T: wonders if "renting" assets should be possible. e.g. it will disappear after a certain period or so
 [2007-09-16 22::20:07] otakup0pe: Tao_T: i want to talk to you about use cases
 [2007-09-16 22::20:16] Tao_T: otakup0pe: I saw your changes :)
 [2007-09-16 22::20:19] otakup0pe: Tao_T: you can handle that with scripts anyway
 [2007-09-16 22::20:32] Tao_T: but I wouldn't put them into the proposed architecture thing
 [2007-09-16 22::20:38] Gigs: otakup0pe: not really if the region domain owner doesn't want the script to run :)
 [2007-09-16 22::20:44] otakup0pe: wouldn't put what. my changes or rentable objects
 [2007-09-16 22::20:48] Tao_T: more a list of requirements or things to handle separately
 [2007-09-16 22::21:13] Gigs: here's a big question
 [2007-09-16 22::21:19] Tao_T: might be slower though
 [2007-09-16 22::21:34] otakup0pe: heh
 [2007-09-16 22::21:35] Gigs: should we design this system for when the internet has 1000mbit interconnects to people's living rooms?
 [2007-09-16 22::21:37] Tao_T: but that's always the case
 [2007-09-16 22::21:40] otakup0pe: Gigs: O_o
 [2007-09-16 22::21:42] Gigs: hehe
 [2007-09-16 22::22:11] otakup0pe: eh. i'd say "no"
 [2007-09-16 22::22:12] Tao_T: it still needs to hit my computer at some time
 [2007-09-16 22::22:20] otakup0pe: because it will be a long time before everyone has such a pipe.
 [2007-09-16 22::22:22] Gigs: Tao_T: only geometry, not scripted actions
 [2007-09-16 22::22:24] Tao_T: maybe send the 3d image of it ;-)
 [2007-09-16 22::22:35] Gigs: I'm saying maybe the scripts could run in a trusted domain outside the region domain
 [2007-09-16 22::22:42] Tao_T: but haven't that much thought about scripts yet
 [2007-09-16 22::22:53] otakup0pe: that oculd get messy gigs.
 [2007-09-16 22::23:01] Gigs: well obviously we'd want to try to preserve the DRM-ability we have on scripts right now
 [2007-09-16 22::23:10] otakup0pe: i think that scripts shoudl be compiled somewhere centrally
 [2007-09-16 22::23:10] Tao_T: we might have better chances for the next meeting then ;-)
 [2007-09-16 22::23:25] Gigs: Tao_T: I don't care what you do with the logs
 [2007-09-16 22::23:35] otakup0pe: same here heh
 [2007-09-16 22::23:54] Tao_T: ok, might add this as meeting 2 ;-)
 [2007-09-16 22::24:01] Gigs: otakup0pe: the latency might be more concern than the bandwidth
 [2007-09-16 22::24:22] otakup0pe: haha. or into controlling a vehicle.
 [2007-09-16 22::24:26] Gigs: yeah
 [2007-09-16 22::24:28] Tao_T: so how much do you think will scripts be just in-world?
 [2007-09-16 22::24:28] otakup0pe: you mean for running scripts
 [2007-09-16 22::24:40] Tao_T: I mean more and more will become web-based anyway
 [2007-09-16 22::24:52] Gigs: the web based stuff already has that latency layer
 [2007-09-16 22::24:56] otakup0pe: yeah for common things tao.
 [2007-09-16 22::25:10] Tao_T: UI might be HTML once there is HTML-on-a-prim
 [2007-09-16 22::25:21] otakup0pe: i mean scripted objects. especially on regions that are simulating things.
 [2007-09-16 22::25:23] Tao_T: actually we have the same thing already now on the web with JavaScript
 [2007-09-16 22::25:35] Gigs: I think we do need to stick to current paradigms when making these designs and use cases, we need to constrain the problem here :)
 [2007-09-16 22::25:36] otakup0pe: then again.... maybe not. in opensim, you can 'script' that stuff server-side with C#, javascript, whatever
 [2007-09-16 22::26:20] Gigs: like I said as long as we don't make assumptions that make these blue sky cases impossible, we should be fine designing for the current system only
 [2007-09-16 22::26:21] otakup0pe: despite my lack of love for the word 'paradigm', i agree with gigs. setting boundaries can't hurt.
 [2007-09-16 22::26:44] Gigs: heh, paradigm is an ok word when you use it right :)
 [2007-09-16 22::26:53] Tao_T: we should at least write down that remote scripting should be possible
 [2007-09-16 22::27:06] Gigs: it's when it comes out of the mouth of a sales guy that the BS detector should go off :)
 [2007-09-16 22::27:55] Tao_T: well, so far you cannot control things directly via HTTP
 [2007-09-16 22::28:02] Gigs: so we can design for those cases
 [2007-09-16 22::28:02] otakup0pe: yeah that's true.
 [2007-09-16 22::28:11] Tao_T: so it would mean to add a protocol for changing things in-world from the outsider
 [2007-09-16 22::28:15] otakup0pe: bi-diretional ?
 [2007-09-16 22::28:31] Gigs: Tao_T: well the "viewer" can be radically different in this new arch
 [2007-09-16 22::28:33] Tao_T: you mean the agent and region services?
 [2007-09-16 22::28:41] Gigs: Tao_T: can't we just model this "external scripts" as a viewer?
 [2007-09-16 22::29:13] Tao_T: of course such an external script could use the same interfaces as the viewer
 [2007-09-16 22::29:23] Gigs: but
 [2007-09-16 22::29:23] Tao_T: without an agent maybe
 [2007-09-16 22::29:28] otakup0pe: hmm.
 [2007-09-16 22::29:31] Gigs: we already did discuss maybe it not being "present"
 [2007-09-16 22::29:39] Tao_T: but it needs to be identified somehow to get permissions
 [2007-09-16 22::29:52] Gigs: that you might not want an av if you are only logged into the agent or region domain for things other than 3d interactive use
 [2007-09-16 22::29:54] otakup0pe: well i'm thinking of it from the point of view of tweaked servers. scripts int he background of servers manipulating objects.
 [2007-09-16 22::29:54] Tao_T: but there are many problems around that
 [2007-09-16 22::29:59] otakup0pe: using the opensim model again.
 [2007-09-16 22::30:02] Tao_T: like if certs are for objects or regions
 [2007-09-16 22::30:14] otakup0pe: Gigs: like searchbots !
 [2007-09-16 22::30:28] Tao_T: well, there should definitely be some reading interface for inventory
 [2007-09-16 22::30:46] Gigs: otakup0pe: yeah there could be that, I dont' think there needs to be any special architecture design for the region to be able to do things like that
 [2007-09-16 22::30:54] Tao_T: and regarding upload bots it depends on how assets are modeled if they are needed anyway or at least very simple
 [2007-09-16 22::31:03] Gigs: otakup0pe: it's interesting you mention that
 [2007-09-16 22::31:24] otakup0pe: that seems easy enough
 [2007-09-16 22::31:29] Gigs: "seems" :)
 [2007-09-16 22::31:31] Tao_T: I am interested in an image upload bot with a HTTP interface ;-)
 [2007-09-16 22::31:35] otakup0pe: make sure the information you need/want to search is available as a 'service api'
 [2007-09-16 22::31:44] Tao_T: just started to mess around with libsl and C# today
 [2007-09-16 22::31:45] otakup0pe: and have a common interface with it.
 [2007-09-16 22::31:50] Gigs: it's not that simple, you can't hit 50,000 servers with every query
 [2007-09-16 22::31:54] Tao_T: but it's more about getting nant to do the right thing for me right now ;-)
 [2007-09-16 22::31:56] otakup0pe: no that's true
 [2007-09-16 22::32:01] Tao_T: and I was playing around with remote objects
 [2007-09-16 22::32:02] Gigs: it has some resembelence to P2P searching
 [2007-09-16 22::32:09] otakup0pe: yeah heh.
 [2007-09-16 22::32:20] Tao_T: but somehow remote objects do not solve my problem I noticed ;-)
 [2007-09-16 22::32:26] otakup0pe: regions / agent domains that want to publish information with search, must register with the search service
 [2007-09-16 22::32:44] Gigs: I think there needs to be exactly 1
 [2007-09-16 22::32:48] otakup0pe: Tao_T: .net remoting ?
 [2007-09-16 22::32:54] Gigs: yep
 [2007-09-16 22::32:56] otakup0pe: what about 'behind the firewall'
 [2007-09-16 22::32:57] Tao_T: can't they simply come your way and query the region domains for objects?
 [2007-09-16 22::33:01] otakup0pe: are you talking sl as a platform or sl as a product ;)
 [2007-09-16 22::33:09] Tao_T: and the region domains decides whether it trusts that service or not like robots.txt?
 [2007-09-16 22::33:10] Gigs: no, a single platform search
 [2007-09-16 22::33:24] otakup0pe: i think the API has to be the same.
 [2007-09-16 22::33:40] Gigs: I don't want to have to go to torrentspy and search 50 sites to maybe get a result
 [2007-09-16 22::33:46] otakup0pe: yeah it totally does.
 [2007-09-16 22::33:47] Gigs: I want one search service
 [2007-09-16 22::33:51] Tao_T: it again depends though on the question "what is an object" or "what can an object be"
 [2007-09-16 22::33:59] otakup0pe: SL as a product shoudl have an opt-in search service
 [2007-09-16 22::34:03] Tao_T: competition is good
 [2007-09-16 22::34:06] » carbonel hat den Chatroom verlassen.
 [2007-09-16 22::34:10] otakup0pe: but there has to be a way to run your own search service
 [2007-09-16 22::34:14] Gigs: well yeah, but I think where we go with search needs to be "one cloud"
 [2007-09-16 22::34:16] otakup0pe: for just your enterprise, etc
 [2007-09-16 22::34:29] Gigs: yeah we don't need to rule out local searching
 [2007-09-16 22::34:31] » SaschaJ hat den Chatroom betreten.
 [2007-09-16 22::34:32] otakup0pe: yeah.
 [2007-09-16 22::34:39] Tao_T: there will probably be one LL search service for the SL grid
 [2007-09-16 22::34:50] otakup0pe: yeah tao... that's why i was making the distinction earlier of product/platform
 [2007-09-16 22::34:50] Gigs: I see LL as a coordinator for this yeah
 [2007-09-16 22::35:03] Tao_T: in the beginning it is most likely LL only anyway
 [2007-09-16 22::35:03] otakup0pe: won't fly.
 [2007-09-16 22::35:08] Gigs: otakup0pe: it can
 [2007-09-16 22::35:17] otakup0pe: there are tons of cases gigs where info =has= to be private, behind a firewall
 [2007-09-16 22::35:18] Tao_T: and then they need to be lucky that it gets some interest from other parties
 [2007-09-16 22::35:27] Gigs: otakup0pe: yeah no one is forcing the door open here
 [2007-09-16 22::35:41] otakup0pe: if you want to play in the "main grid" though
 [2007-09-16 22::35:42] Tao_T: you can also restrict your services by a firewall
 [2007-09-16 22::35:47] otakup0pe: there really shoudl only be one major interface
 [2007-09-16 22::35:55] Gigs: anyway let me hammer this stuff out
 [2007-09-16 22::35:56] otakup0pe: google.com/sl
 [2007-09-16 22::36:07] Tao_T: yes, one interface
 [2007-09-16 22::36:19] Gigs: what do you mean plug into other services?
 [2007-09-16 22::36:27] Tao_T: but again the question is about what to search ;-)
 [2007-09-16 22::36:38] Gigs: Tao_T: hehe the use cases will be where I start of course
 [2007-09-16 22::36:40] Tao_T: objects might be completely different in different region implementations
 [2007-09-16 22::37:04] Gigs: anyway I'm going to make all this public and transparent
 [2007-09-16 22::37:28] Tao_T: Maybe we should first discuss on how to write this down ;-)
 [2007-09-16 22::37:29] Gigs: and we'll come up with something better
 [2007-09-16 22::38:08] Tao_T: my plan was to have one page with in-the-blue use cases and one with the existing ones
 [2007-09-16 22::38:33] otakup0pe: use a medawiki category thing
 [2007-09-16 22::38:42] Gigs: I don't think we need all that
 [2007-09-16 22::39:10] Tao_T: and for now I'd go for simple 1-sentence descriptions if possible
 [2007-09-16 22::39:30] otakup0pe: Tao_T: you are all hot for this EVE example aren't you ;)
 [2007-09-16 22::39:49] Tao_T: well, it's one which is at least somewhat different from what we have
 [2007-09-16 22::39:57] Gigs: yeah but it's radically different!
 [2007-09-16 22::40:07] Tao_T: but feel free to add other, even more different examples
 [2007-09-16 22::40:29] Gigs: we are making the new web here :)
 [2007-09-16 22::40:38] Tao_T: what about Google Earth and this architecture?
 [2007-09-16 22::41:02] Gigs: I think it's premature to look at other things too much right now
 [2007-09-16 22::41:18] Tao_T: I just want to think a little bit about these as they might open up the protocol a bit
 [2007-09-16 22::41:26] Gigs: sure
 [2007-09-16 22::42:03] Tao_T: I am not saying that we should implement this right now ;-)
 [2007-09-16 22::42:14] otakup0pe: ... just keep it in mind.
 [2007-09-16 22::42:24] Tao_T: although let me quickly implement somehting google earth like ;_)
 [2007-09-16 22::42:48] Gigs: hehe
 [2007-09-16 22::42:50] Tao_T: It depends though what Google Earth will be in the future.. think of avatars on this earth
 [2007-09-16 22::42:52] Celierra_: makes sure she is logging this creation of the 'new web' >.> :p :p
 [2007-09-16 22::42:56] » Celierra_ heißt jetzt Celierra.
 [2007-09-16 22::43:04] Tao_T: or think of x earths each with the same topology but different agents
 [2007-09-16 22::53:00] Gigs: :)
 [2007-09-16 22::54:58] Tao_T: now if I'd only knew how to copy and paste a chat from colloquy without it being XML
 [2007-09-16 22::55:53] otakup0pe: lol ?
 [2007-09-16 22::56:09] Tao_T: scary
 [2007-09-16 23::01:09] otakup0pe: Tao_T: so those bullet lists i put in, right location ?
 [2007-09-16 23::01:33] Tao_T: gimme an URL :)
 [2007-09-16 23::01:42] otakup0pe: the changes i made to your pages. 1sec
 [2007-09-16 23::02:01] Tao_T: trying to find my own pages right now ;-)
 [2007-09-16 23::02:06] otakup0pe: i only really poked at region domain
 [2007-09-16 23::02:35] Tao_T: it was like that in the IRC notes
 [2007-09-16 23::02:50] Celierra: Better use IPv6 :p
 [2007-09-16 23::02:54] otakup0pe: ok. because i think it means stuff like 'ping/wget/nmap lolcube'
 [2007-09-16 23::03:26] Tao_T: I think it means to get the IP of the region store which has it
 [2007-09-16 23::04:15] otakup0pe: yeah it's URI or whatever.
 [2007-09-16 23::04:22] Tao_T: probably it will be some URI
 [2007-09-16 23::04:25] otakup0pe: Tao_T: yeah i was trying to put in the current things
 [2007-09-16 23::04:54] Tao_T: I am just proposing a format here anyway ;-)