User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2008 Apr 3

• [11:07] Which Linden: Morning Sai
• [11:13] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey which.
• [11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: sorry. was listening to the congressional hearing on SL and VW
• [11:14] Which Linden: How is it?
• [11:14] Which Linden: I haven't seen it yet
• [11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: long-winded. But smoe interesting stuff. And its groundbreaking ahd history making and all that
• [11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: [1]
• [11:15] Saijanai Kuhn: How was your vacation
• [11:15] Which Linden: It was nice. I'm really sorry I didn't let everyone know that I was going on it
• [11:15] Which Linden: Just didn't have time to stick out the sign before I had to board teh plane
• [11:16] Which Linden: What have you been up to?
• [11:16] Saijanai Kuhn: not a problem. WE have a enough contacts that we figured out what was going on in a few minutes ;-)
• [11:16] Which Linden: Ha ha ha, funny
• [11:16] Saijanai Kuhn: eh, tryig to create a work of art for Rob on my path to get hired as a tech writer
• [11:17] Which Linden: Nothing daunts a well-connected man
• [11:17] Which Linden: What are you documenting?
• [11:17] Saijanai Kuhn: Well, the current login docs are pretty much all mine, so I'm rewriting them in the format Zero's using for the SLGOGP draft page
• [11:18] Saijanai Kuhn: Tess is also having me rework the rez_avatar section fo teh strawman login page to fit with the SLGOGP page
• [11:18] Which Linden: That rezAvatar stuff is really exciting
• [11:18] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Saijanai_Kuhn/Rez_Avatar_Capability
• [11:19] Saijanai Kuhn: I ran into a couple of snags that Zero clarified for me. ALl of his docs currently just show client -> server interactions, so we came up with a way to handle server -> server interactions
• [11:20] Which Linden: Ah, the agent host <--> region host section
• [11:20] Saijanai Kuhn: the " --> " added to the table format plus a line added to the prose equivalent
• [11:20] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah. Zero just wants a one way arrow which makes sense for this kind of thing.
• [11:20] Saijanai Kuhn: client --> server
• [11:20] Which Linden: Yeah, that's the RESTful way
• [11:21] Saijanai Kuhn: so its a sample of where going over the docs with a fine toothed comb clarifies things
• [11:21] Saijanai Kuhn: hopefully a selling point for me
• [11:22] Saijanai Kuhn: btw, how would yoou do a sequence diagram for the event queue/get thign? I searched the interent over the weekend and didn't find any examles
• [11:22] Which Linden: So, lemme see if I understand this right: the agent host magically gets the rez_avatar capability from the region host, and then it POSTs the xyz and avatar id to it, receiving a response in return?
• [11:23] Saijanai Kuhn: I think it hands it to the client, which does the post
• [11:23] Saijanai Kuhn: I didn't copy the prose part of the strawman API
• [11:23] Which Linden: Oh, really? So the viewer posts its own avatar ID to the region capability?
• [11:23] Saijanai Kuhn: hang on let me get that page up
• [11:24] Which Linden: I guess this also raises the question of how to represent an avatar id
• [11:24] Which Linden: Oh, and to answer your earlier question, I'd do a sequence diagram using OmniGraffle, power tool of Mac nerds.
• [11:24] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman#RezAvatar_Capability
• [11:25] Which Linden: InkScape would be a good second choice
• [11:25] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, I have that. I meant, the structure of the arrows actually.
• [11:25] Saijanai Kuhn: its a asynch arrow and at some time later an asynch response....
• [11:25] Which Linden: Oh I see you want to encode that in the arrows
• [11:25] Saijanai Kuhn: in a loop. WHich no-one has bothered to spell out in UML detail
• [11:25] Which Linden: Hah
• [11:26] Which Linden: Does UML even apply to this problem domain? I thought it was just for class hierarchies
• [11:26] Which Linden: Hi Harleen!
• [11:26] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Which
• [11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: Unified Modeling language. There are 9 *11?) types of dagrams. Its pretty huge
• [11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: in fact, that diagram is UMLish on your poster behind you
• [11:26] Saijanai Kuhn: 9-11 diagram types
• [11:27] Which Linden: Hm, I've never learned UML, so it's just a coincidence if it looks that way
• [11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: a nice set of example seuence diagrams for networkign: [2]
• [11:27] Cenji Neutra: hi which. Either you haven't rezzed or your a bamboo plant :)
• [11:27] Saijanai Kuhn: this is which's house.
• [11:28] Cenji Neutra: (*you're)
• [11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: which plant is Which?
• [11:28] Which Linden: This avatar intentionally left plant-like
• [11:28] Cenji Neutra: lol
• [11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: what I love is the typing animation
• [11:28] Cenji Neutra: I guess I'm joining late. What is the current topic?
• [11:29] Which Linden: We're discussing the rez_avatar capabilities
• [11:29] Which Linden: As seen here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman#RezAvatar_Capability
• [11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: WHich and I were chatting about my documentation project (trying to get a job). So he was pointing out some ambiguities (or discovering them as he read)
• [11:29] Which Linden: The ambiguities are not necessarily just in the documentation, it's worth noting
• [11:29] Which Linden: The documentation captures a design that is itself probably iincomplete
• [11:30] Saijanai Kuhn: Which is why documentation is so important ;-)
• [11:30] Saijanai Kuhn: one of the UML books I have points out that doing docs is a great way of finding the missing pieces
• [11:31] Saijanai Kuhn: if you can't write it donw, its probably because its not there or you don't understand it
• [11:31] Which Linden: Yeah, I've been finding that too, in my internal docs for the distributed L$ project.
• [11:32] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning
• [11:32] Which Linden: Hey Morgaine
• [11:32] Which Linden: Good to see you
• [11:32] Saijanai Kuhn: Someone in the OPenSIm IRC was working on a ATM system for OpenSim. I tried to point him to your chttp work and he got all huffy about GPL religious stuff
• [11:32] Which Linden: Again, everyone, I offer my apologies for not providing notice that I wasn't going to be here yesterday
• [11:32] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Which, you too. You're looking well watered :-)
• [11:33] Which Linden: Heh, it was a nice break
• [11:33] Which Linden: Sai: was it because the Apache license is GPLv2 incompatible?
• [11:33] Which Linden: My understanding is that it is GPLv3 compatible
• [11:33] Cenji Neutra: Q about CHTTP: will is be avalable to scripts, or just used between grid components nd the viewer?
• [11:33] Which Linden: Good question
• [11:34] Saijanai Kuhn: I think he didn't even want to look at the CC 3.0 web pages due to philisophical differences with the company
• [11:34] Which Linden: I think it won't be directly available to scripts, at least for a long time
• [11:34] Which Linden: Sai: man, that be wack
• [11:34] Cenji Neutra: and I guess it won't be easily implementable *in* LSL or whatever?
• [11:35] Which Linden: It would be easy to implement the wire protocol
• [11:35] Saijanai Kuhn: he started SCREAMING about LL, with all sorts of uncomplementary remarks. Kinda wierded out the rest of the opensim room
• [11:36] Saijanai Kuhn: one of the opensim guys made a point of asking for your urls on the wiki
• [11:36] Saijanai Kuhn: sorta a "please don't pay attention to the nut, thanks" thing
• [11:36] Which Linden: Which urls?
• [11:36] Saijanai Kuhn: chttp urls on the wiki
• [11:36] Morgaine Dinova: WellI must say I sometimes feel like screaming too, when otherwise perfectly intelligent people start blabbering on about licenses. The whole US has gone license mental.
• [11:37] Which Linden: Yeah, the thing about licenses is that despite the precise language they're really vague
• [11:37] Which Linden: So it's a huge fear factory
• [11:37] Saijanai Kuhn: unless its explicitly marked otherwise, as far as I know, anything on the SL wiki is in the CC license Kinda hard to complain about it, but some people do
• [11:37] Morgaine Dinova: They're lawyer fodder, and nothing else.
• [11:38] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the more liberal ones are trying to AVOID being lawyer fodder: juse it for whatever, just give us credit
• [11:38] Which Linden: Yeah, someone was just complaining about what the phrase "IANAL" implies about our legal system
• [11:38] Morgaine Dinova: Which: good term, "fear factory". Yes, exactly.
• [11:39] Which Linden: The best part is, anyone can sue you for any reason at all, so even if you obey the strictest terms of a license, you can still be sued and forced to defend yourself in court.
• [11:40] Which Linden: But presumably it's only Jack Thompson taking advantage of that. :-)
• [11:40] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: sorry, no credit. Like in that film, the only way to win in that game is to not play it.
• [11:40] Saijanai Kuhn: the momral is, become a billionaire but not so that anyone knows. That way they don't know they can sue you for lots of money but if they do, you can hire the best lawyers
• [11:40] Saijanai Kuhn: the moral* is...
• [11:41] Arawn Spitteler: Marry in a country where you can defend your wealth in your wife's name.
• [11:41] Morgaine Dinova: Which: yes, there always will be parasites who take advantage of the situation and the borked system. But you can't live your life to their tune, or your life will be a misery.
• [11:42] Saijanai Kuhn: /em would't mind being a closet billionaire
• [11:42] Which Linden: So, back to rezavatar
• [11:42] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
• [11:43] Which Linden: One thing that seems confusing to me is that both the viewer->agent host and the agent host->region capabilities are called the same thing
• [11:43] Which Linden: That wouldn't be a problem if they had the same semantics, but they don't
• [11:43] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah. I was wondering tha tmyself. I was sorta getting aroudnn that by adding "region" to the name
• [11:43] Arawn Spitteler: Agent Domain?
• [11:44] Which Linden: Yeah, the text is clear in the docs, but I'm just thinking about implementors
• [11:44] Which Linden: Arawn: yeah, The Domain of Agents
• [11:44] Saijanai Kuhn: agent domain is the new place avatars are going to llive. They will take as much of hte load off the simulator as possible --anything avatar-specific
• [11:45] Which Linden: Gandalf all sitting between the viewer and the region, saying, "YOU SHALL NOT.... oh, I guess you can pass."
• [11:45] Saijanai Kuhn: so IM, inventory, logoin, etc
• [11:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero's talking about bling scripts also
• [11:46] Which Linden: The interesting thing about the agent domain is that it introduces this concept of being half-logged-in, where you're getting IM and inventory, but aren't in a region somewhere
• [11:46] Arawn Spitteler: Particles, or something else?
• [11:46] Cenji Neutra: Where do L$ transactions reside - agent domain or something seperate?
• [11:46] Saijanai Kuhn: just the binary of the scripts will live in the agent domain so you can have yoru bling in non-trusted worlds
• [11:47] Arawn Spitteler: If you're going to travel from LL-SL to a subscriber SL, without a password, then you're logged in to a reality, but have't rezzed any particulr place
• [11:47] Saijanai Kuhn: Which, my script bot does that already. Its just totally ruthed. Better to not have it inworld at all for IM
• [11:47] Cenji Neutra: Will the script binary creators have control over which region domains they trust their code to run on?
• [11:48] Which Linden: L$ transactions span agent and region domains
• [11:48] Morgaine Dinova: Aye, bizarre concept. Everyone thought the agent disappeared on logout (and Account handled offline activities) until Zero came up with that. Very odd.
• [11:48] Cenji Neutra: (I don't want the encryption in my 'wallet' attachment reverse engineered by a non-trusted domain host to extract the keys and gan access to my money!)
• [11:48] Saijanai Kuhn: thats one of htose issues Zero hasn't worked out. FOr non-bling, active scripts would still rbe assets in the current grd (if they are allowed to work at all)
• [11:48] Saijanai Kuhn: Itgoes back to the trusted host vs non-trusted host.
• [11:49] Arawn Spitteler: PArticles are just lists of data, rather than active scripts, and would have to be read, same as SetText
• [11:49] Cenji Neutra: Right. As a creator of scripts that rely on the encryption keys in the binaries remaining secret, I don't want to allow my scripts to be executed on untrusted domains regardess of where the avatar has gone)
• [11:50] Saijanai Kuhn: well, cripted bling includes scripts. the passive shiny stuff is just a property of the prim
• [11:50] Which Linden: I'm just curious what a script running on an agent host can practically do.
• [11:50] Saijanai Kuhn: bling
• [11:50] Which Linden: But that implies that either only you can see the bling
• [11:50] Saijanai Kuhn: probably scripted dinosaur legs or something
• [11:50] Which Linden: Or that it's sending a stream of particle system/physics updates to the sim
• [11:50] Cenji Neutra: Use llHTTPRequest to interact with an external service on behalf of the avatar
• [11:51] Saijanai Kuhn: well, its a matter of where teh binary lives. The execution is on the current sim, but the binary packet is on the agent host
• [11:51] Saijanai Kuhn: the binary code.
• [11:51] Cenji Neutra: I see. As long as I can control (as creator) which grids by binaries as execute on, I'm good :)
• [11:51] Cenji Neutra: (*my binaries can execute..)
• [11:52] Arawn Spitteler: Your scripts can run on IBM Sub-Grid, because it's 100% Trusted mutual subcontractor of Linden Labs
• [11:52] Saijanai Kuhn: well, thats the issue of trust again. A sim needs the binary to execute. BUt f its just bling type stuff, in theory the agent host could do it
• [11:52] Which Linden: Huh? The binary will be on the agent host but the execution will be on the sim? Doesn't the sim have to get the binary to run it?
• [11:52] Morgaine Dinova: There's no security associated with the binary, versus the source. They have equivalent security, one is just a bit more obscure.
• [11:53] Saijanai Kuhn: sorry, not clear there. The agent keeps the binary and sends updates to the simulator
• [11:53] Cenji Neutra: Too bad if I don't truct IBM - they can reverse engineering and attachment script I create that is imported by an avatar TP there, extract the keys, and gain unauthorized access to my site's facilities (banking for example)!
• [11:53] Saijanai Kuhn: apparently the idea comes from something Ted Maa is doing with OSSL for OpenSim
• [11:53] Arawn Spitteler: Some things look like they could be edited by browser, if the designers thought it reasonable, such as Floating Text and Particles
• [11:53] Saijanai Kuhn: Arawn .yeah, there's several jiras floating around requesting that
• [11:54] Arawn Spitteler: I thinkk our IMs would be Agent Domain, so as not to burden the sims, just as Streaming Video is.
• [11:54] Saijanai Kuhn: you could design your particles iwth sliders in the build interface instead of with scripts
• [11:54] Which Linden: That would be nice
• [11:54] Cenji Neutra: Well, if I make my script no-mod, the binary is never downloaded o a client - so it stays within the confined of LL's network.
• [11:55] Cenji Neutra: Now you're telling me my binary might be on IBM's grid without my authorization?
• [11:55] Saijanai Kuhn: so... Zero's been talking about an agent domain script sever for bling and a sim script ser ver for normal rezzed objects
• [11:55] Arawn Spitteler: it's available to anyone at Linden Labs, with that kind of access, and such person has undoubtedly signed a non-disclosure agreement, in the event of finding a new job at IBM
• [11:56] Saijanai Kuhn: Cenji, IBM is under pretty strong contracts to LL about this. They're a 100% trusted region (even though the agent/region server thign doesnt' exist yet)
• [11:56] Which Linden: Lawyers again. :-)
• [11:56] Morgaine Dinova: Cenji: that's what we were talking about with Zero and Hamilton today. The idea of IBM's grid being "trusted" and connected to the main grid is a bit bizarre. I wonder what Sunand countless other rivals will think of that.
• [11:56] Saijanai Kuhn: by the end of next year, hopefully, you'll be worried about a lot more than IBM ;-)
• [11:57] Arawn Spitteler: IBM has the suits for just that kind of Paperwork
• [11:57] Cenji Neutra: I understand that - and the stakes are not really high yet - and I trust IBM - but the general principle still applies.
• [11:57] Which Linden: Yeah, I don't think we have the resources or inclination to do this sort of trusted relationship with more but a bare handful of Very Trusted (tm) entities
• [11:57] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, which is where "trust" comes in. Its easy enough to build the technology that requires trust. BUt its hard to define it for a more general case than IBM/LL
• [11:57] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
• [11:58] Cenji Neutra: A script creator might have entrusted LL with highly-valuable information and now LL is handing it to partners without a word? What about Mom&Pop 3rd-party grids around the corder?
• [11:58] Cenji Neutra: (*corner)
• [11:58] Morgaine Dinova: I'd limit it to the Very Very Very Trusted ones only :-)
• [11:58] Which Linden: That's why we have all this work to make it possible to interoperate with a range of trust levels
• [11:58] Saijanai Kuhn: I mean, we can say: don't run/rez things on untrusted land and the asset server will never pass the script info to the untrusted grid. But how do you prove that a grid can be trusted?
• [11:58] Arawn Spitteler: When you trust Linden Labs with our intellectual property, you're damned foolish enough to also trust Congress.
• [11:58] Cenji Neutra: I guess my question is: has/is the issue being considered for the new architecture - that script binary creators will need the ability to dictate where their script can and can't execute (or even be transfered)
• [11:59] Which Linden: I must assume that's been brough up
• [11:59] Which Linden: But no idea where or what happened with the discussion
• [11:59] Cenji Neutra: Good. I hope you're right :)
• [11:59] Saijanai Kuhn: its been considered at least somewhat as part of the issue of trust for items. REzzing of items that you own in a non-trusted sim is an issue I don't recall talking about though
• [12:00] Which Linden: Yeah, I think the twist here is that it's about whether the *creator* of the object wants to allow it
• [12:00] Cenji Neutra: Although items are 'public' in the sens they have to be sent to the client anyway.
• [12:00] Which Linden: The owner allowing/disallowing things is easy
• [12:00] Cenji Neutra: (can't seem to type today!)
• [12:00] Dahlia Trimble: perhaps a script could have an api that tells it which grid it is running on and then refuse to run
• [12:00] Saijanai Kuhn: excusing. Rezzing of items HAS been brought up. The assumption right now is that if its a full perms item (or script) it can be rezzed/used on untrusted land
• [12:00] Morgaine Dinova: I think this business of trust is a complete dead end and waste of time. While the trust-oriented people are still trying to figure out how to achieve it, the untrusted VW scene will explode around them. It's like the "license" stuff. Totally irrelevant.
• [12:00] Which Linden: You're probably right
• [12:01] Cenji Neutra: I see your point, but I disagree.
• [12:01] Saijanai Kuhn: there will be transitional concerns where people will want some assurance that their business model still works
• [12:01] Saijanai Kuhn: whether or not the business model will survive the wild wild west is another question.
• [12:01] Cenji Neutra: If the ability to control where, for example, my 'wallet' attachment script runs isn't available, it cannot be securely created.
• [12:01] Arawn Spitteler: I think what's been published without full perms will be confined to those Linden Labs trusts in a legally enforceable way.
• [12:02] Cenji Neutra: Essentially, and untrusted sim owner can reverse engineer the code and gain access to the bank accounts of any avatar that sets foot in theor grid.
• [12:02] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, just like the labels are RIAA are focussed on trying to preserve a dead business model. No surprise. But in that direction lies obsolescence.
• [12:02] Saijanai Kuhn: Cinji, for attachments (bling), the script will be controlled by LL or whichever grid you created it on
• [12:02] Which Linden: If there was a way to store the secret key in some place other than the script itself, then the 'wallet' attachment doesn't have as much to worry about
• [12:02] Cenji Neutra: Really?
• [12:02] Cenji Neutra: correct.
• [12:02] Cenji Neutra: But there isn't.
• [12:02] Saijanai Kuhn: thats what the Agent Server Script Server idea is about.
• [12:02] Which Linden: Yep, that's a good use
• [12:03] Arawn Spitteler: If you grant spending perms to a script, where could that script run?
• [12:03] Dahlia Trimble: thinks client side scripting has a lot of potential to improve the content creation process
• [12:03] Arawn Spitteler: These questions must have come up for PayPal
• [12:03] Cenji Neutra: I have to admit I'm not 100% up-to-speed on the Agent Script server idea. I assume it is a server to run scripts in attachments within the agent domain rather than the region domain?
• [12:03] Saijanai Kuhn: ouch. A ful perms/ful object with spending...
• [12:03] Which Linden: Client side is not the same as agent-host scripting, btw.
• [12:03] Cenji Neutra: No, not for PayPal, but for real ATMs - like the one at the gas station
• [12:04] Saijanai Kuhn: well, I think that trust for L$ will be part of any deal between grids for trust
• [12:04] Which Linden: Yeah, that's part of the plan for the Escrow
• [12:04] Cenji Neutra: That it an arms-race between ATM designers trying to protect the keys stored in the machine and the criminals
• [12:04] Which Linden: Though it's not designed yet
• [12:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Actually, there's a provision in realXtend to control real world objects via SL proxies
• [12:04] Which Linden: Awesome
• [12:05] Cenji Neutra: Problem is that a virtual ATM (script binary) is much easier to reverse engineer and copy than getting ahold of a real ATM to attack :)
• [12:05] Dahlia Trimble: a provision? like a plug-in?
• [12:05] Saijanai Kuhn: that home netowrking control system which uses the power liens for networking --they have an interface to it
• [12:05] Arawn Spitteler: With a streaming video bot, it should be possible to attend a VW Conference in both worlds
• [12:06] Saijanai Kuhn: I think its one of hte base capabilities. Of course, it might still be a plugin. realXtend uses Python as its scripting language
• [12:06] Morgaine Dinova: X10 home automation
• [12:06] Saijanai Kuhn: right.
• [12:06] Dahlia Trimble: oh x10
• [12:06] Morgaine Dinova: I have that here at home
• [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: I had it once
• [12:07] Saijanai Kuhn: realxtend lets you attach SL objects to your X10 system
• [12:07] Cenji Neutra: My whole house is X10. Terrible.
• [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: my x10 switches kept breaking :(
• [12:07] Saijanai Kuhn: so click on the box and the lights turn on in your living room or whatever
• [12:07] Cenji Neutra: Despite having 6 repeaters, sometime I still can't switch off some lights.
• [12:07] Which Linden: X10 is like the cheapest home-automation system there is. That's their market
• [12:07] Cenji Neutra: Yep.
• [12:08] Saijanai Kuhn: proof of concept at least
• [12:08] Dahlia Trimble: there are better ones that use x10 protocol
• [12:08] Cenji Neutra: I made the mistake of putting it all through our new house when it was built.
• [12:08] Which Linden: Problem, is the next step up is heck of expensive
• [12:08] Morgaine Dinova: X10 is limited, but does its job well. It's not the future though, far too limited. Just use IP.
• [12:08] Arawn Spitteler: Does X10 work through the slow-throw circuit breakers?
• [12:08] Cenji Neutra: I have IP thermostats (with builtin web browsers :) )
• [12:08] Which Linden: Whoa, who makes those?
• [12:08] Dahlia Trimble: lol I'm impresses
• [12:09] Cenji Neutra: Can't say - but I have a phase passthrough
• [12:09] Morgaine Dinova: It's always had problems with mains filters, although that's a good thing too, keeps it out of the neighbour's house
• [12:09] Cenji Neutra: Proliphix
• [12:09] Which Linden: Ah, wow, look at the time. I gotta review some code for a guy.
• [12:09] Dahlia Trimble: x10 technology is at least 30 years old now
• [12:09] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah
• [12:10] Cenji Neutra: [3]
• [12:10] Morgaine Dinova: Which: fun fun :-)
• [12:10] Which Linden: Thanks all for coming, feel free to sample the dessert course, and stay classy!
• [12:10] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
• [12:10] Dahlia Trimble: Bye :)