User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2008 Oct 9

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  • [11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: hey Which, what's up?
  • [11:07] Imaze Rhiano: bit idealistic
  • [11:07] Tree Kyomoon: which?
  • [11:07] Imaze Rhiano: which?
  • [11:07] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, it still had several unsubstantiated points from the first film a year ago. But they focussed far more on actual facts, and documented them this time. It's more difficult for people to dismiss it as fabrication when they see the whole banking system collapsing around them currently.
  • [11:07] Tree Kyomoon: All I see is a potted plant
  • [11:07] Which Linden: what?
  • [11:08] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe.
  • [11:08] Morgaine Dinova: Hiay Which :-)
  • [11:08] Which Linden: hey :-)
  • [11:08] Which Linden: how's y'all doing?
  • [11:09] Saijanai Kuhn: Got my GUI workign *sorta) [1]
  • [11:09] Tree Kyomoon: ack a talking plant!
  • [11:09] Saijanai Kuhn: where?
  • [11:09] Morgaine Dinova: Hey Which, just a general aside: what's LL position on US politics? Forbidden to mention it at work, or is some side favoured, or what?
  • [11:09] Which Linden: I don't expect that from someone named "Tree"
  • [11:09] Morgaine Dinova: Hahahaha
  • [11:09] Morgaine Dinova: Well said :P
  • [11:09] Tree Kyomoon: zing!
  • [11:09] Imaze Rhiano: I am going to get small evening snack...
  • [11:10] Which Linden: Love your wikifier, Tree
  • [11:10] Which Linden: Sai hooxed me up with it
  • [11:10] Saijanai Kuhn: its not working right for me right now :-/
  • [11:10] Tree Kyomoon: oh cool!
  • [11:10] Tree Kyomoon: just check the "settings..."
  • [11:10] Tree Kyomoon: its all customizable
  • [11:10] Saijanai Kuhn: I did. They look right, as far as I can tell.
  • [11:11] Which Linden: To answer the question about US Politics -- there's no company policy on them
  • [11:11] Saijanai Kuhn: might be a cookie that is corrupt orsomething
  • [11:11] Morgaine Dinova: kk
  • [11:11] Which Linden: Flash local storage is a weird thing
  • [11:11] Which Linden: Kind of like a cookie but not
  • [11:12] Tree Kyomoon: is linden labs laying a lot of people off due to this finanical crisis?
  • [11:12] Saijanai Kuhn: anyway, I got the GUI part of my pyogp thng working. Haven't tackled events yet though
  • [11:12] Saijanai Kuhn: its only a crisis if you need to borrow money, Tree
  • [11:13] Which Linden: The fundamentals of the SL economy are strong
  • [11:13] Which Linden:  :-)
  • [11:13] Morgaine Dinova: yeah right
  • [11:13] Saijanai Kuhn: bunjcha panicked bankers are refusing to loan paperto anyone
  • [11:13] Tree Kyomoon: well thats good to hear
  • [11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the "engine" is strong, but the oil line is completely clogged
  • [11:14] Which Linden: Has anyone here messed around with Tsung?
  • [11:14] Saijanai Kuhn: newp
  • [11:14] Which Linden: [2]
  • [11:15] Which Linden: It's pretty cool, the 1.3.0 release just came out nd fixed some bugs
  • [11:15] Tree Kyomoon: neato mosquito. DOes it work with SL?
  • [11:15] Morgaine Dinova: They're not refusing at all. The bankers would like nothing more than to create debt. The problem is that we're at the top of the 9:1 curve, so there's no more fictitious money to be plucked out of thin air, unless they drop the reserve to under 10%. The chickens had to come home to roost some time, and they have.
  • [11:15] Which Linden: It's a distributed load testing framework, which we're using to load test internal web services
  • [11:16] Saijanai Kuhn: kool
  • [11:16] Which Linden: I guess someone could write a module for it that spoke message system
  • [11:16] Saijanai Kuhn: MOrgaine, that's not so. Even the banks whohave been "bailed out" are refusing to give out loans
  • [11:17] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: indeed, they can't. We're into the plateau region of the 9:1 curve. There are no more profits to be made, just debt for all, it's logarithmic.
  • [11:18] Morgaine Dinova: I think I'll stop talking politics, this is Which's OH.
  • [11:19] Imaze Rhiano: back
  • [11:19] Which Linden: Ha ha, well I just wanted to throw tsung out there for you to check out
  • [11:19] Which Linden: It would be cool if load-testing became a part of the OGP test harness
  • [11:20] Tree Kyomoon: sort of sticking your tsung out?
  • [11:20] Which Linden: Ba-dump pssshh!
  • [11:20] Morgaine Dinova: Which++ ... the future is Erland, or the Erlang model
  • [11:20] Morgaine Dinova: g*
  • [11:20] Which Linden: Yeah, maybe something based on the erlang runtime but with a syntax that doesn't make baby Knuth cry
  • [11:21] Morgaine Dinova: Knuth is probably quite OK with declarative langs :-)
  • [11:21] Which Linden: Heh, yeah, probably
  • [11:21] Which Linden: There actually do seem to be a buncha projects aimed at combining erlang and python
  • [11:22] Morgaine Dinova: Anyway, the syntax is immaterial, all that matters is the model. And the model in Erlang is the same one we had decades ago, in CSP, and Occam for example. It's about time the world got with the program ;-)
  • [11:22] Which Linden: What's CSP?
  • [11:23] Morgaine Dinova: See C.A.R. Hoare --- Communicating Sequential Processes
  • [11:23] Which Linden: Will check that out
  • [11:23] Morgaine Dinova: I guess it's on WP, lemme check
  • [11:23] Tree Kyomoon: car hoare?
  • [11:24] Which Linden: [3]
  • [11:24] Morgaine Dinova: Cheers
  • [11:24] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: Tony Hoare is the UK's equivalent of Dijkstra.
  • [11:24] Tree Kyomoon: what an unfortunate last name
  • [11:25] Morgaine Dinova: Only to the nudge nudge wink wink fraternity :-)
  • [11:25] Which Linden: Well, tsung was my topic idea for today, but that wasn't very interesting so far
  • [11:25] Which Linden: Other ideas?
  • [11:26] Tree Kyomoon: any updates on the Mono stuff?
  • [11:26] Tree Kyomoon: interesting news?
  • [11:26] Tree Kyomoon: integration into LSL?
  • [11:26] Which Linden: Hmm... I'm afraid I'm not connected to that project
  • [11:26] Which Linden: So I have no idea
  • [11:27] Which Linden: I mean, we deployed mono, right
  • [11:27] Tree Kyomoon: what are you the most excited about at Linden Lab these days
  • [11:27] Tree Kyomoon:  ?
  • [11:27] Which Linden: Well that's a great question!
  • [11:27] Morgaine Dinova: Which: I've got a lot of things on atm, but I'll try to look at Tseng
  • [11:27] Morgaine Dinova: Tsung*
  • [11:28] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: nice question
  • [11:28] Which Linden: Thanks Morgaine, it's probably one of those things that's interesting to you only if you need it
  • [11:28] Saijanai Kuhn: Whump turned his OH over to periapse yesterday for a Mono discussion
  • [11:28] Which Linden: So, Tree, I think what excrites me the most is propably interoperability
  • [11:29] Which Linden: I'm afraid that's a bit of a "boring" answer since everyone here is also interested in that too and has been for some time
  • [11:29] Tree Kyomoon: People have been talking about that a lot, other than interop with open sim, what else would SL be interoperable with ? Somthing big like facebook , or ebay, or amazon?
  • [11:30] Which Linden: Zero has been very careful to not make assumptions about the overall system, so, maybe, yeah
  • [11:31] Morgaine Dinova: Which: in that case, you may be interested in a development at Zero's OH today. We discussed IM, and Zero pretty much said that in SL-NG, IM would actually run through OGP. That's really exciting for rich chat with object references, and it chat in-client chat-Jabber etc gateways very elegant.
  • [11:31] Which Linden: I tend to approach problems from a "let's try and improve the existing system" viewpoint, but Zero corrects me to challenge my assumptions about how the system *should* work
  • [11:31] Which Linden: Yeah, cool
  • [11:32] Morgaine Dinova: I think Mono's a red herring. I never understood why LL would want to base their scripting system on a project that is chasing Microsoft taillights, and always will be.
  • [11:32] Tree Kyomoon: Thats where I tend to disagree with Zero a bit, he sometimes gets so lost in the theoretical and academic arguments, that no progress happens
  • [11:32] Which Linden: Ha ha, yeah, what I'd love to see is being able to send a link to an object in a chat message to your friend, and when the friend clicks on the link, their viewer looks at/highlights the object in question
  • [11:33] Morgaine Dinova: Which: Exactly --- something that chat in MMO's has allowed for a decade!
  • [11:33] Tree Kyomoon: I tend to be more pragmatic and I think thats how SL was built, not by people second guessing every intention of every philosophy
  • [11:33] Which Linden: hasn't played any mmos
  • [11:33] Saijanai Kuhn: didn't Wow or EQ II do that sorta/
  • [11:33] Which Linden: How does one select the object to be sent in chat?
  • [11:34] Morgaine Dinova: SL devs need to play MMOs and other 3D games, just to know what the state of the art is.
  • [11:34] Saijanai Kuhn: but, remember, all objects in MMOs are canned, so all clients already have the data
  • [11:35] Imaze Rhiano: object is dragged and dropped to chat channel - this will create link to object's information - when user then clicks link she will see object's attribute - like if it is sword - how much it does do damage
  • [11:35] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: yep, which is why it's more trouble for us. But the non-tech user doesn't know that it's more trouble, so it has to be provided anyway.
  • [11:35] Saijanai Kuhn: need a better caching system AND a db of most-used textures
  • [11:36] Morgaine Dinova: Anyway, "it's hard" isn't a reason for not doing things. Just the opposite, it's a fine reason for doing them :-)
  • [11:36] Which Linden: Hm, yeah, making an interoperable version of that will be much more of a challenge
  • [11:36] Imaze Rhiano: clothes preview - like showing quickly what small texture from shirt
  • [11:36] Imaze Rhiano: ok... I lost my english skills just...
  • [11:36] Which Linden: And I agree that I should probably be using an MMO of some sort, though at the level or work I do, I should probably instead be playing with ATM software or something
  • [11:37] Saijanai Kuhn: but you njeed to have baked textures for that
  • [11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Ikaze: that's exactly what MMOs allow in chat already, yep
  • [11:37] Morgaine Dinova: Im*
  • [11:37] Which Linden: Baked textures are an optimization -- you could implement live clothing preview
  • [11:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Imazxe, are you ANtont in irc?
  • [11:38] Imaze Rhiano: no
  • [11:38] Imaze Rhiano: I am not in IRC
  • [11:38] Saijanai Kuhn: ok, was hoping you were a realXtend person
  • [11:38] Imaze Rhiano: thought I live in same city as RealXtend team...
  • [11:38] Saijanai Kuhn: they've come up with something to handle both their own graphics/meshes AND SL's , but there appears to be no real communications between them and LL
  • [11:39] Morgaine Dinova: What I've never understood is why they unbake. Once an av is fully rezzed, why does Ruth put in an appearance, ever? Why does the baked texture go away?
  • [11:39] Saijanai Kuhn: sim cached, I think
  • [11:39] Which Linden: realXtend just uses OGRE I think
  • [11:40] Which Linden: SL's prims are just a special case of mesh
  • [11:40] Saijanai Kuhn: I meant the defintions ofobjects, not hte rendering engine
  • [11:40] Saijanai Kuhn: um...
  • [11:40] Which Linden: Oh yeah, well, same deal
  • [11:40] Saijanai Kuhn: SL prims are not meshes until they get to client side
  • [11:41] Which Linden: Right, but it's easy to generate a mesh from prim data
  • [11:41] Which Linden: (relatively easy)
  • [11:41] Morgaine Dinova: But why does an av's mesh disappear?
  • [11:41] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, but that was one of Zero's issues. prim data is highly compact. Other mesh data, not so
  • [11:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, I imagine because the caching mechanisms on the client and the sim are both quite flawed
  • [11:42] Tree Kyomoon: I wish sculpties wouldnt render until the surface map had loaded
  • [11:42] Which Linden: I dunno, Morgaine, realistically it's just a convoluted and crufty code path
  • [11:42] Morgaine Dinova: Ew
  • [11:43] Which Linden: For example, your baked clothing texture is hosted on the sim that baked you, even if you subsequently move off to another sim
  • [11:43] Saijanai Kuhn: which is something zero wants to change with OGP, I believe
  • [11:43] Saijanai Kuhn: that way, you can have baked appearance even in wild west sim
  • [11:43] Which Linden: For sure, it should be changed, because, like, WTF
  • [11:43] Tree Kyomoon: really? I hope that changes too...seems really inefficient
  • [11:43] Imaze Rhiano: anyway ... I know many persons who would be ready to kill ---> QUICK <--- clothing preview that allwows faster and easier inventory sorting and deciding what to wear - and maybe even what to buy
  • [11:43] Which Linden: Yeah, definitely
  • [11:44] Morgaine Dinova: Which: fine, but once I've received my basked clothing textures, why do I lose them, even if I change sim? After all, my client knows that I haven't changed clothes, so why remove their baked textures from cache?
  • [11:45] Saijanai Kuhn: why does the cache download things every time you loginto the same sim?
  • [11:45] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed
  • [11:45] Which Linden: Umm..... perhaps the teleoprt/region cross protocol sends needless avatar update packets?
  • [11:45] Which Linden: isn't familiar with the code
  • [11:45] Imaze Rhiano: 1024x1024x256 tga is awful big - most likely because of that
  • [11:45] Saijanai Kuhn: I've just heard the caching is broke at many levels, no specificis
  • [11:45] Morgaine Dinova: Is there anyone in LL who works with caching issues?
  • [11:46] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure. There was a thread in SLDEV a while back, but never seemed to go anywhere
  • [11:47] Which Linden: I believe The Front has a project on the table to revamp the client caching
  • [11:47] Which Linden: But no idea about its schedule or anything
  • [11:47] Saijanai Kuhn: Thread from june: [sldev
  • [11:48] Which Linden: Yeah but that's not the Linden plan
  • [11:48] Morgaine Dinova: Imaze: you're saying that our normal cache sizes simply don't allow us to cache a useful amount of data, so everything is being flushed even if you frequent the same places again and again?
  • [11:49] Imaze Rhiano: well... it is just 500mb
  • [11:50] Morgaine Dinova: The simple answers are to make the cache a lot larger, or to use in-cache representation that are more compact, and expanded on the fly before handing to GL.
  • [11:50] Which Linden: It's 4 mb
  • [11:50] Imaze Rhiano: disk cache? 500Mb
  • [11:50] Which Linden: Oh,... I meant the 1024x1024 image is only 4mb in size
  • [11:51] Which Linden: So.. it probably fits in there pretty well
  • [11:51] Imaze Rhiano: it could be that cache is cleared so that there is enough space to load new region textures to it
  • [11:51] Which Linden: I think the interesting parts of the cache are in the expiration policies
  • [11:52] Morgaine Dinova: There are only 125 slots for 4MB images in 500MB, yet clearly we each see far more than 125 textures.
  • [11:52] Imaze Rhiano: anyway we are wasting our time to this ... someone knows it better than us :P
  • [11:53] Which Linden: Ha ha, yes, well, certainly someone knows it better than me!
  • [11:53] Saijanai Kuhn: but only 125 of those fit on disk
  • [11:53] Saijanai Kuhn: reads back chat and shuts up
  • [11:53] Which Linden: not every texture is 1024x1024 TGA
  • [11:53] Imaze Rhiano: 4MB - when bitmap - but when compressed by TGA / JPEG...
  • [11:53] Morgaine Dinova: As Which says, the efectiveness of caches is all up to their expiration policies.
  • [11:53] Dulce Ceriano: I didn't know these places were here
  • [11:54] Saijanai Kuhn: well, expiration policy apears to be "once you log off" for alot of things
  • [11:54] Which Linden: Yeah... that's borken
  • [11:54] Which Linden: If it appears thus (BTW, no issues here)
  • [11:55] Morgaine Dinova: I sometimes wonder whether the expiration policy isn't simply: Yes ;-)
  • [11:55] Which Linden: Heh
  • [11:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Well, its like the endian code in the viewer. Its used all over the place, but doesn't appear to DO anything
  • [11:56] Which Linden: I'm not familiar with the endian code you speak of
  • [11:56] Saijanai Kuhn: the endian converson macros
  • [11:56] Which Linden: Perhaps it doesn't do anything because most of the systems we work on happen to have the same endianness?
  • [11:56] Imaze Rhiano: wasn't older Mac use different bit order?
  • [11:56] Morgaine Dinova: Don't expect endian code to do anything, unless it's on a machine of the "wrong" endian
  • [11:56] Saijanai Kuhn: they appear tobe turned off for all but windows intel
  • [11:57] Saijanai Kuhn: actually, endian order in UDP changes with data type and position in packet
  • [11:57] Which Linden: Yes, and ther'es some strange endianness associated with the host ip representations too
  • [11:58] Morgaine Dinova: Wish LL would just bite the bullet and get rid of UDP. Yes, it will be painful for a while, but when you come out the other end, you'll be ahead.
  • [11:58] Saijanai Kuhn: Eddy Stryker and I had many conversations about this when I was first writing python UDP handler
  • [11:58] Which Linden: We're slowly going there
  • [11:58] Which Linden: We have a corporate policy of not boiling the ocean
  • [11:59] Saijanai Kuhn: Locklainn usummarized almost everything on his user page. Wonder if its still there
  • [12:00] Morgaine Dinova: Which: talking of which, I just burned a .iso of OpenSolaris, was going to play with ZFS for a fileserver.
  • [12:00] Which Linden: Ha ha, cool
  • [12:00] Which Linden: Try out the Solaris port of the viewer while you're at it
  • [12:00] Morgaine Dinova: Not really OpenSolaris, but Nexenta: the OpenSolaris kernel, but using all GNU user-space.
  • [12:00] Morgaine Dinova: Nexenta Core. Not the rest of Nexenta, that's proprietary
  • [12:01] Which Linden: I've never heard of that
  • [12:01] Which Linden: You could also wait for Snow Leopard and try ZFS in that
  • [12:01] Which Linden:  :-)
  • [12:01] Morgaine Dinova: [4]
  • [12:02] Which Linden: Well, I should party my way on over to the office
  • [12:02] Morgaine Dinova: OSX is proprietary, not interested. And Apple is evil anyway, and Job's RDF is beyond the pale ;-)))))
  • [12:03] Saijanai Kuhn: damn. They erased Locklainn's contributions, including that nice summary he did of the UDP packet handling
  • [12:03] Tree Kyomoon: party over to the office?
  • [12:03] Morgaine Dinova: Who erased?
  • [12:03] Imaze Rhiano: bye which
  • [12:03] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Which :-)
  • [12:03] Saijanai Kuhn: dunno, but his user page is gone and can't find anything by him
  • [12:03] Which Linden: Really? I thought Lock was coming back after grad school
  • [12:04] Which Linden: Maybe it's some aspect of mediawiki's integration with our login
  • [12:04] Saijanai Kuhn: would be nice, but can't find any contributions by him unless its under the pyogp hieracrchy
  • [12:04] Which Linden: Hmm.... maybe I'll ask rob
  • [12:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Cory still has a page,too
  • [12:04] Tree Kyomoon: Morgaine, are you running on Linux now?
  • [12:04] Saijanai Kuhn: I think
  • [12:04] Which Linden: Anyhow, yeah, will check you all later!
  • [12:04] Saijanai Kuhn: or at least some folk still do
  • [12:04] Which Linden: Thanks for stopping by!