User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 June 25

• [11:01] Latif Khalifa: hey which
• [11:01] Twisted Laws: hello which
• [11:01] Which Linden: Hi there!
• [11:01] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Which :-)
• [11:01] Which Linden: I'm running Snowglobe, it's pretty sexy!
• [11:02] Latif Khalifa: hehe
• [11:02] Widget Whiteberry: surveys chairs, wonders which are filled
• [11:02] Morgaine Dinova: I'm running Snowglove too, but wouldn't call it sexy, hehe. Just greater zoom in map, main visible change, no?
• [11:02] Morgaine Dinova: globe*
• [11:02] Widget Whiteberry: Which looks good as bamboo
• [11:02] Which Linden: the minimap is better too
• [11:02] Micah Giha: notes that Which moved a safe distance from the herbivore in the area
• [11:03] Aimee Trescothick: heh, glad to hear you like the minimap :)
• [11:03] Which Linden: Yeah, great work!
• [11:03] Which Linden: Weirdly though zooming in all the way doesn't seem to center on my av
• [11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Woohoo, Aimee's got her mad SpaceNav vehice again, I need another wild ride like yesterday :P
• [11:04] Aimee Trescothick: ah yeah, that's cos it centres on the camera position
• [11:04] Widget Whiteberry: focus has been flakey with this last release
• [11:04] Aimee Trescothick: which is generally a bit behind your av
• [11:04] Which Linden: Ohhhhh good call aimee
• [11:04] Aimee Trescothick: wasn't noticeable when you couldn't zoom so close
• [11:05] Which Linden: yeah... well that's pretty sweet
• [11:05] Which Linden: Glad I know about that now
• [11:05] Aimee Trescothick: hoping to make it an option what to focus on in the future
• [11:05] Morgaine Dinova: Aimee: what's you next big thing for Snowglobe? Give us an exclusive hint ;-)))
• [11:05] Morgaine Dinova: your*
• [11:06] Mabalot Tatham: accepted your inventory offer.
• [11:06] Mabalot Tatham: accepted your inventory offer.
• [11:06] Aimee Trescothick: well, can't speak for anyone else, but planning to continue tweaking the minimap some more myself
• [11:06] Morgaine Dinova: Apart from space invaders on minimap of course ....
• [11:06] Which Linden: now that I know it zooms on camera position I can't imagine it any otherr way
• [11:07] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, it's most noticeable if you use flycam, as it follows with your camera then
• [11:07] Morgaine Dinova: I like it, although a tickbox to control the center would be good
• [11:07] Aimee Trescothick: would be handy to have it stay on the avatar at times though, like working in a sandbox
• [11:07] Saijanai Kuhn: Signpost just sent me a video of the map with calanderized events marked on it
• [11:08] Mojito Sorbet: I prefer minimap always follows the flycam
• [11:08] Saijanai Kuhn: [1]
• [11:08] Morgaine Dinova: Aimee: just add a control to the minimap right-button menu?
• [11:08] Which Linden: the minimap shouldn't gett too featureful, because then it's like why not use the regular map
• [11:08] Aimee Trescothick: where your camera may be away from your avatar, but you'd like to still see who's around your body
• [11:08] Mojito Sorbet: Regular map way too slow
• [11:09] Aimee Trescothick: the main map is much fast in snowglobe
• [11:09] Mojito Sorbet: Turn on "show land for sale" on main map and watch what happens to performance
• [11:09] Which Linden: I guess that's not really what I meant. It seems a bit weird to have two such different maps.
• [11:10] Aimee Trescothick: but I see the minimap as more of a real time plan view of what's happening, whereas the Main map is for long distance navigation and planning
• [11:10] Saijanai Kuhn: Signpost's mod doesn't seem to slow down the main map that much though
• [11:10] Mojito Sorbet: I view main map as long distance navigation. MiniMap is for near me.
• [11:10] Morgaine Dinova: They really have different purposes. I guess they could be merged, but that might end up in compromising both.
• [11:10] Mojito Sorbet: yes
• [11:10] Which Linden: Yeah they have different purposes, as befits their very different UIs
• [11:11] Mojito Sorbet: In fact I rarely use LMs for the usual places I go. Bring up map, type sim name, enter, then pick a spot to TP to
• [11:11] Aimee Trescothick: I would like to be able to use the S3 map tiles on the minimap though
• [11:11] Aimee Trescothick: that may well be something I look at soon
• [11:11] Which Linden: I liked the proposal on sldev to make objects above/below the camera pos to fade out
• [11:11] Latif Khalifa: Aimee, that would be agreat option
• [11:11] Mojito Sorbet: Fade out, instead of the little arrows?
• [11:11] Micah Giha: Until I tried to find these office hours sites, I have not been using the main map much at all
• [11:12] Which Linden: Mojito: objects not avs
• [11:12] Mojito Sorbet: Oh, ok
• [11:12] Latif Khalifa: i'd just turn them off, the objects, just use the tile with terrain + objects from s3
• [11:12] Saijanai Kuhn: for RPG and war games, a "fog of war" option might be good as well
• [11:12] Aimee Trescothick: I'd like to have the S3 map and recently updated objects overlayed
• [11:13] Mojito Sorbet: I think disabling map is a feature of RLV, isnt it?
• [11:13] Aimee Trescothick: so you still see stuff that's moving or changing
• [11:13] Which Linden: And I really love Merov's notion that we don't need a map at all; you should be able to just fly really high and see very far
• [11:13] Morgaine Dinova: Aimee: all textures will come from S3 in due course, no? So eventually the sources of both will be unified.
• [11:13] Latif Khalifa: lol
• [11:13] Aimee Trescothick: well, the minimap at the moment isn't a ready rendered texture
• [11:13] Mojito Sorbet: You know how long it takes to get up that hih? lol
• [11:14] Aimee Trescothick: it's created within the viewer
• [11:14] Which Linden: Mojito: yeah, but maybe there'd be some supa-fast flying option
• [11:14] Morgaine Dinova: Which: is Merov's middle name "EagleEye"? ;-)
• [11:14] Mojito Sorbet: ctrl-M is still faster
• [11:14] Aimee Trescothick: terraform land and you can watch it changing on the minimap etc.
• [11:15] Morgaine Dinova: Could be just an overlay on the last recorded terrain texture though
• [11:15] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, I found that useful when I was building my new island
• [11:15] Which Linden: I guess it's not really a practical thing but I could imagine that when you hit ctrl-m, instead of bringign up the floater it'd just aot-boost your camera to 1,000,000 m
• [11:15] Latif Khalifa: i wish merov would fix bugs that make flying high very unpleasant experiene now, with half of horizon flickering in and out of existance
• [11:15] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, I hate that flickering in Snowglobe
• [11:15] Which Linden: *auto-boost (to pick one especially egregious misspelling to correct)
• [11:15] Which Linden: orly, the water flickers?
• [11:16] Morgaine Dinova: The horizon flickers when you're up high
• [11:16] Latif Khalifa: yeah, but when you're high enough most of what you see is water
• [11:16] Mojito Sorbet: Sometimes goes grey, sometimes blue
• [11:16] Which Linden: hm maybe it's a shader thing
• [11:16] Morgaine Dinova: And has a white patch in front. So basically it's got some bug
• [11:17] Latif Khalifa: well its freshly broken in 1.23
• [11:17] Which Linden: broken in both 1.23 and snowglobe?
• [11:17] Latif Khalifa: yup
• [11:17] Morgaine Dinova: We could add "Rise to 1000m and check horizon" to the Smoke Tests on the wiki
• [11:18] Latif Khalifa: the purpose of tests is to find bugs, RC process found plenty, the problem is they are not fixed
• [11:18] Which Linden: could do that
• [11:18] Latif Khalifa: its not that we don't find bugs
• [11:18] Which Linden: well there's always a tradeoff when doing a release
• [11:18] Latif Khalifa: yeah yeah
• [11:19] Which Linden: because fixing bugs also adds risk of introducing a new bug
• [11:19] Latif Khalifa: "best viewer ever"... heard that song from Q already lol
• [11:19] Morgaine Dinova: Snowglobe is very early in its life, should be no surprise. But 1.23.4 has same bugs, and that's quite wrong.
• [11:19] Which Linden: it took me a long time to understand that sort of release process
• [11:19] Latif Khalifa: its just that Lindens and residents have a very different view of what is important to fix for a release
• [11:20] Which Linden: what would be ideal is if we could get away from the "shove bugs around" sort of model
• [11:20] Morgaine Dinova: 1.23.4 is full of bugs that 1.22.11 doesn't have, so clearly something went very wrong in the SVN update
• [11:20] Latif Khalifa: what Q classifies as "nice to have" feature, people actually using SL think of as critical bugs
• [11:20] Which Linden: Yeah, that's awkward
• [11:20] Mojito Sorbet: And errors in design are just as much a "qaulity" issue as are crashes.
• [11:21] Which Linden: Hah true but wayyy harder to fix
• [11:21] Morgaine Dinova: Mojito: very true. Unfortunately, QA isn't tasked to identify design faults
• [11:21] Latif Khalifa: its the stubborness to admit that there is a problem that is most difficult to understand
• [11:21] Mojito Sorbet: At some point, you really do need to look at doing the viewer over form scratch, rather than cobbling more stuff onto old code.
• [11:21] Which Linden: I generally agree that fixing crashes should take priority -- that's basically the worst sort of bug
• [11:21] Mojito Sorbet: Proper threading, proper modulaization
• [11:22] Which Linden: Not that I agree with everything Joel Spolsky says, but: [2]
• [11:22] Which Linden: (that's right, article 69, baby)
• [11:23] Morgaine Dinova: Nooooooo .... we much continue to grow the monolith!!! Plenty of room for a 100 gig executable on modern drives! ;-)
• [11:23] Mojito Sorbet: I dont mean throw out every line of course.
• [11:23] Latif Khalifa: Which, but if a bug makes parts of the scene disappear, that build becomes useless. And 1.23 makes stuff disappear in builds with a lot of sculpties
• [11:23] Mojito Sorbet: But rendering should be completely divorce from network and user I/O for example
• [11:23] Morgaine Dinova: Yup
• [11:23] Which Linden: Our executable is really small relative to pretty much anything out there, Morgaine
• [11:24] Morgaine Dinova: Which: so there's tons of bad stuff out there ... dooesn't mean it's right :-)
• [11:24] Which Linden: Latif: ah you're talking about the rendering limits, yes, that's semi-intentional so it's trickier to deal with
• [11:25] Mojito Sorbet: Is that different from the Mesg Detail slider?
• [11:25] Which Linden: Morgaine: yeah, but, I'm just sayin' -- hardly our biggest problem
• [11:25] Mojito Sorbet: *mesh
• [11:25] Latif Khalifa: Which, there was a problem. The "fix" is a bad one. I wish LL would admit, the fix is bad and look for a correct one
• [11:25] Latif Khalifa: saying its intentional, its supposed to be like that is not very helpful
• [11:25] Which Lindenri: Ashton: helllo everyone!
• [11:26] Morgaine Dinova: 90% of the viewer should be written in a safe scripting language, and only the hot spots done in C++. You'd have far fewer bugs, far greater readability, and roughly the same performance.
• [11:26] Which Linden: Latif: Agreed. There's risk from fixing bugs, in that you could do so badly! But we'll eventually get it right
• [11:26] Which Lindenri: Ashton: sorry, had to visit Jack Linden first because of the asset server issues
• [11:26] Morgaine Dinova: lol
• [11:26] Mojito Sorbet: Bah
• [11:26] Aimee Trescothick: but but but C++ is what keeps programmers in work Morgaine
• [11:27] Aimee Trescothick: we'd have nothing to do but add features without the bugs
• [11:27] Latif Khalifa: Which, this was discovered early on in RC process... its the subborness to admit that there is a problem on LL part that is... interesting
• [11:27] Mojito Sorbet: Youy could give them keypunches - that would make them even less productive.
• [11:27] Morgaine Dinova: There would still be plenty C++ to do --- the bulk of the graphics for starters.
• [11:27] Morgaine Dinova: 3D I mean.
• [11:27] Mojito Sorbet: Oh sure
• [11:27] Morgaine Dinova: No C~~ in the 2D at all.
• [11:27] Mojito Sorbet: Compute intensive stuff.
• [11:27] Aimee Trescothick: graphics programming should be done in Logo
• [11:27] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
• [11:28] Mojito Sorbet: Netwrok and user interactions, could all be in C# or something
• [11:28] Mojito Sorbet: Something with built in support for thrading and locks
• [11:28] Which Linden: Yeah, or we could do it like EVE does, where everything is in PYthon
• [11:29] Saijanai Kuhn: obj C with array synntax
• [11:29] Micah Giha: How many users with low-end hardware would be forced out of SL with less efficient (scripted) code?
• [11:29] Mojito Sorbet: Especially if client-side scripting hapens, you would have mono in there anyway
• [11:29] Mojito Sorbet: Mono has a JIT compiler to real machine code
• [11:29] Morgaine Dinova: Well with Python's greenlets and eventlets, you'd be able to hardness multicores quite nicely without horrendous explicit parallel threading code.
• [11:30] Saijanai Kuhn: actually, smalltalk with array syntax *trying to learn F-script still)
• [11:30] Mojito Sorbet: Is that F++? Mono does that too.
• [11:30] Saijanai Kuhn: Not sure what that is
• [11:30] Latif Khalifa: hey Dahlia :)
• [11:30] Which Linden: Micah: the general idea is that in an application, the bulk of the code is spent doing things that aren't time-critical, but there's a small set of code that needs to be really fast. Using this model you could have 80% of the code be in a "slow" language but still be about 95% as performant
• [11:30] Morgaine Dinova: No, that's F# Mojito
• [11:31] Mojito Sorbet: ok
• [11:31] Mojito Sorbet: I bet it would be more than 95%
• [11:31] Which Linden: On the other hand, since we have our own UI library, pretty much all that library code would want to be in C++
• [11:31] Mojito Sorbet: Especially if thie higher-level language made parallelism easier
• [11:32] Micah Giha: ummm... my point... there are still single core machines running SL clients out there
• [11:32] Which Linden: Mojito: possibly, but then again even now not everyone has a dual-proc machine
• [11:32] Saijanai Kuhn: P is an array of stuff like [(name, address, phone)...
• [11:32] Mojito Sorbet: Just because many peple do not have a dual core machine does not mean you should not take advantage of it if it is there!
• [11:32] Which Linden: The UI library does some pretty heavy data processing (e.g. iterating over a list of 1000 items in response to a mouse click)
• [11:32] Mojito Sorbet: Design the code to scale with te hardware.
• [11:32] Latif Khalifa: well SL isn't really cpu bound on a moderm processors anyway
• [11:33] Mojito Sorbet: Oh? Try shadows
• [11:33] Morgaine Dinova: Pity F# is MS-only, or I'd have a play. I wonder if anyone's doing an open source one, maybe translated to C# for Mono.
• [11:33] Saijanai Kuhn: Which, actually the array thingie in F-script optomizes for that
• [11:33] Which Linden: Mojito: of course but this is Micah's fear: that someone with an entry-level system will be hurt in the quest to boost performance on high-end maachines
• [11:33] Mojito Sorbet: Sure, so you do not use time-slice scheduling in compute intensive tasks for instance.
• [11:33] Mojito Sorbet: This is not rocket science.
• [11:34] Which Linden: Sai: ?
• [11:34] Morgaine Dinova: That's where green threads would score, they don't need multiple cores to provide great concurrency in a single process.
• [11:34] Micah Giha: If too much is added client side based on the assumption of computing power of multi core...
• [11:34] Dahlia Trimble: green threads?
• [11:35] Saijanai Kuhn: which?
• [11:35] Morgaine Dinova: Dahlia: like Python's greenlets and eventlets, and Erlang's processes. You can spawn millions, no problem
• [11:35] Mojito Sorbet: Says on wiki that studies show "Linux native threads have much better performance on I/O and context switching operations."
• [11:35] Which Linden: Sai: was just curious what you meant about "the array thingie"
• [11:36] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, F-script extends smalltalk syntax to handle optimized operations on arrays
• [11:36] Mojito Sorbet: Like APL?
• [11:36] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah. Explicitly like APL
• [11:37] Mojito Sorbet: with more readable syntax I hope
• [11:37] Morgaine Dinova: I'd love to know why LL never put arrays into LSL. It's one of the noddiest things to do (and was 90% done by Don 3 years ago) ... so why didn't it happen?
• [11:37] Micah Giha: What's not readable about APL?
• [11:37] Saijanai Kuhn: maybe. Definitely more compact than smalltalk or python
• [11:37] Mojito Sorbet: Well, it does beat TECO for readability
• [11:37] Which Linden: Even if you have fast iteration, calling <scripted function foo> on each item in an array is going to be slow
• [11:38] Morgaine Dinova: APL does improve on line noise for readability ;-)
• [11:38] Which Linden: Morgaine: risk of introducing new bugs?
• [11:38] Which Linden: I don't actually know why LSL has no arrays (or more complex data structures)
• [11:39] Mojito Sorbet: I am ok with the approach of not tacking more stuff onto LSL, and just go to C#
• [11:39] Which Linden: Yeah probably everyone sees that as more of a win
• [11:39] Mojito Sorbet: Any new library functions of course would benefit both
• [11:40] Morgaine Dinova: Which: arrays are so simple though, both in semantics and in implementation, that bugs really don't get much opportunity ... and anyway, all development introduces bugs, yet dev hasn't stopped.
• [11:40] Mojito Sorbet: And there are engineering process techniques to reduce chances of bugs getting in.
• [11:41] Which Linden: Morgaine: yeah, I don't claim to defend every prioritization decision we make
• [11:41] Saijanai Kuhn: E.G.///
• [11:41] Saijanai Kuhn: > {'oliver', 'henry', 'bertram'} uppercaseString
• {'OLIVER', 'HENRY', 'BERTRAM'}
• [11:41] Mojito Sorbet: Just overload the operators.
• [11:41] Saijanai Kuhn: yar, but this is optimized outside the interpreter
• [11:42] Micah Giha: Seeing so much lag on sims with too many scripts running now.. adding complexity would only aggravate that situation
• [11:42] Which Linden: Wow just looked at the APL page. I kinda like the idea of using extended characters as operators. Very concise
• [11:42] Morgaine Dinova: The amount of sim CPU currently being lost to running up and down lists must be huge, since all none-trivial programs do it. The savings from very simple O(1) arrays would have been vast.
• [11:42] Mojito Sorbet: Argh, lists. Me hates lists
• [11:42] Which Linden: Micah: the flip side of that argument is that adding more powerful primitives would allow people to write the same behaviors with more efficient code
• [11:43] Dahlia Trimble: lists suX0r :(
• [11:43] Which Linden: Yeah I also hate them
• [11:43] Which Linden: Struggled with them for that dang escrow demo
• [11:43] Morgaine Dinova: Lists are great in list-oriented languages. But LSL isn't one.
• [11:43] Which Linden: Oh that's a good idea --- let's convert LSL to Erlang!
• [11:44] Morgaine Dinova: That would work :-)
• [11:44] Mojito Sorbet: LISP!
• [11:44] Latif Khalifa: lol
• [11:44] Which Linden: Ha ha, that's actually a hilarious idea, because LSL scripts are quite a bit like Erlang processes
• [11:44] Morgaine Dinova: At least I'd be earning money from scripting .... nobody else would though :P
• [11:44] Latif Khalifa: for about two days
• [11:44] Mojito Sorbet: Keeping track of CAR and CDR diagrams gives me a headache
• [11:45] Dahlia Trimble: EWWWWW lisp :(
• [11:45] Morgaine Dinova: Which: they are indeed quite similar to Erlang processes, in their shared-nothing paradigm. In almost nothing else though
• [11:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Suppose you have an array, KEY, and another array called LOCK. Both arrays are the same
• length. You need to know whether every element of KEY is equal to the corresponding LOCK
• element:
• > KEY := {1.01, 1.763, 1.808, 1.2346, 1.2272, 1.8095, 1.1}
• > LOCK := {1.01, 1.763, 1.898, 1.2346, 1.2272, 1.8095, 1.1}
• > KEY = LOCK
• [11:45] Saijanai Kuhn: FALSE
• [11:46] Which Linden: Morgaine: and they can receive events, just like Erlang processes
• [11:46] Morgaine Dinova: LISP rocks! /me ducks at the rock from Dahlia
• [11:46] Which Linden: And they have a ridiculously limiting set of primitive data structures, just like Erlang
• [11:46] Saijanai Kuhn: oops Key = Lock \ \ #&
• [11:46] Which Linden: kids because he loves
• [11:46] Mojito Sorbet: [3]
• [11:47] Morgaine Dinova: Hahaha, yeah, that's a classic xkcd
• [11:47] Dahlia Trimble: hurls a giant rock at Morgaine's caddaddar
• [11:47] Morgaine Dinova: Well I do both LISP and Perl, so I'm covered :-)
• [11:47] Morgaine Dinova: catches the rock in a cons.
• [11:48] Mojito Sorbet: Hey, C# has Lambda functions too
• [11:48] Which Linden: Guido hates lambdas
• [11:48] Latif Khalifa: i really really like c#
• [11:48] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, and they're quite nice in C#3
• [11:48] Latif Khalifa: the ease of event handling, threading, built in collections, its just sweet
• [11:48] Latif Khalifa: too bad Mono is such a POS
• [11:49] Mojito Sorbet: how so?
• [11:49] Dahlia Trimble: <3 mono
• [11:49] Latif Khalifa: well i wrote this app that would end up using 700MB ram in mono
• [11:49] Morgaine Dinova: The only major thing missing from C# (or actually, from CLR) is green threads. It really needs those, in these days of parallel programming.
• [11:50] Latif Khalifa: so it was more efficient for me to install Sun Virtual Box... with Windows XP running in VM
• [11:50] Mojito Sorbet: So it is mono's implemntation of CLR that is the problem, not the concept?
• [11:50] Latif Khalifa: imagine that, XP virtual machine running on 512mb ram would outperform mono on the same box, using less cpu and ram
• [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: it probably was a difference in the method you used to measure memory
• [11:51] Latif Khalifa: Dahlia, my system load went from 10-20 to .3
• [11:51] Mojito Sorbet: Windows and Linux have opposite policies in how memory and paging get allocated
• [11:52] Morgaine Dinova: Latif: according to Miguel de Icaza, that used to be the case, but from Mono 2.4 onwards there's proper memory handling. -- [4]
• [11:52] Which Linden: Hm but mono is much more embeddable, as we observe on a daily basis
• [11:52] Latif Khalifa: lies, danmed lies and statistics
• [11:53] Latif Khalifa: mono 2.4 garbage collector and memory usage is still faaaar from optimized
• [11:53] Mojito Sorbet: All I can get is mono 2.0.1
• [11:53] Morgaine Dinova: Well he ran the things that the guys on #opensim told him to run.
• [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: Miguel finally did get back to me and he gave me a few links discussing measuring memory consumption in linux, I'll try to dig them up and share them
• [11:54] Which Linden: Did he not compare it to the .NET vm? Seems an oversight
• [11:54] Morgaine Dinova: Cool Dahlia!
• [11:54] Latif Khalifa: oh well sounds like Linden Lab when they refuse to acknowlege there is a problem
• [11:54] Morgaine Dinova: By the way, read the Discussion page off that Mono page
• [11:55] Morgaine Dinova: It says what he measured
• [11:55] Latif Khalifa: i know on my linux box VM running XP outperforms Mono by factor of 10
• [11:55] Morgaine Dinova: Speed?
• [11:56] Mojito Sorbet: Probably different JIT compilers.
• [11:56] Latif Khalifa: system load and memory usage
• [11:56] Morgaine Dinova: (Haven't seen Miguel comment on speed, only on memory)
• [11:56] Latif Khalifa: he can claim there is no problem all he wants :)
• [11:57] Morgaine Dinova: He didn't claim, he ran what the #opensim guys told him to run. You give him your test scenario, and your results, and it would be interesting to see his tests.
• [11:57] Which Linden: Doesn't seem to me that he is claiming there is no problem, only that things are improving
• [11:57] Mojito Sorbet: I think it may depend on exactly what you are doing.
• [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: dunno... I have code that works better on mono than .net and vice versa
• [11:58] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
• [11:58] Mojito Sorbet: People do not worry abouit locality-of-reference any more
• [11:58] Which Linden: Yeah, Latif: I'd encourage you to show someone on the Mono team your 10x-difference program, maybe they'll be able to fix your issue
• [11:58] Morgaine Dinova: Which is why one needs to establish the exact test scenario, and then compare .NET and Mono. Can't measure handwaving.
• [11:58] Latif Khalifa: guess where on the grapsh i switched from running Mono to XP-in-a-VM
• [11:58] Mojito Sorbet: I want to know how to get 2.4 on my Linux boxes without breaking anyting
• [11:58] Latif Khalifa: [5]
• [11:59] Mojito Sorbet: Both ubuntu and gentoo are still at 2.0.4
• [11:59] Latif Khalifa: memory usage graph shows the same
• [11:59] Which Linden: It kinda bugs me when someone finds a problem, talks about it, but never tries to fix it
• [11:59] Which Linden: Or even tell the people responsible for fixing it that there's a bug
• [11:59] Morgaine Dinova: Gentoo was at 2.0.1 for Mono stable, but it had 2.4 in test branch
• [12:00] Morgaine Dinova: And it works
• [12:00] Latif Khalifa: Which, Mono folks were told gazillion times about memory consumption prolbems, but as you have seen in that link they just claim there is no problem
• [12:00] Mojito Sorbet: Oh, just a masking then? I will check that
• [12:00] Morgaine Dinova: Mojito: yeah, ~x86
• [12:01] Latif Khalifa: and I cannot fix evrey problem I find lol
• [12:01] Which Linden: Latif: I didn't see that in the link
• [12:02] Which Linden: Just because someone says "In this specific scenario there is no problem" doesn't mean they are also saying "in all situations there is no problem"
• [12:03] Which Linden: It just seems to me that you have something incredibly useful: a repro. Withholding that repro from the developer seems irresponsible.
• [12:03] Morgaine Dinova: There might well be a problem, but as things stand, you *claim* there's a problem, while Miguel runs the #opensim test and *measures* that there isn't one. Measurement wins.
• [12:03] Morgaine Dinova: So provide a suitable test.
• [12:03] Latif Khalifa: sure
• [12:03] Which Linden: Whoa open mike
• [12:04] Which Linden: Cyber
• [12:04] Cyber Enyo: HI
• [12:04] Aimee Trescothick: sounds like he's commiting a murder
• [12:04] Morgaine Dinova: It would be to everyone's benefit to be able to show Miguel that it's crap. Just need an effective test for him to replicate.
• [12:04] Which Linden: Can you turn off your mike?
• [12:04] Saijanai Kuhn: plugs ears
• [12:04] Cyber Enyo: SORRY
• [12:04] Which Linden: Thx
• [12:04] Mojito Sorbet: sits in the silence of having voice disabled.
• [12:05] Aimee Trescothick:  :)
• [12:05] Which Linden: Ha ha ha good thing this is a text-only OH
• [12:05] Cyber Enyo:  ?
• [12:05] Micah Giha: places a tick mark in the column for 'good to not be on voice'
• [12:05] Latif Khalifa: 1. use libomv, login 10 clients, observe memory usage mono vs. .net
• [12:05] Dahlia Trimble: at times it's a benefit that sound doesnt work for SL™ on my linux box ;)
• [12:05] Mojito Sorbet: That too
• [12:05] Saijanai Kuhn: we chat in text only so we can make a record of hte office hour coversation, Cyber
• [12:05] Latif Khalifa: and mono folks are aware of it, and were told on numerous occasions
• [12:06] Saijanai Kuhn: and he gone.
• [12:06] Micah Giha: He was noewbie... only 3 days old
• [12:07] Micah Giha: ^newbie ... darn hooves.. so hard to type with them
• [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: couldnt have been worse than the stuff I did as a 3 day old n00b ;)
• [12:07] Morgaine Dinova: Maybe #opensim bods would script up a hypergridded setup for Miguel, and when he runs it, they all HG in to him so he can measure.
• [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: lots of OpenSim users use mono
• [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: quite a few
• [12:08] Dahlia Trimble: including me
• [12:08] Latif Khalifa: btw. anyone looking for a good VM software
• [12:08] Latif Khalifa: Sun VirtualBox
• [12:08] Latif Khalifa: highly recommend it
• [12:09] Which Linden: I've hard good things about that, I'll have to try it
• [12:09] Which Linden: *heard
• [12:09] Dahlia Trimble: me too, <3 it
• [12:09] Latif Khalifa: and its free
• [12:09] Which Linden: Ha ha, until Oracle makes it for-pay
• [12:09] Dahlia Trimble: it's Sun
• [12:09] Latif Khalifa: haha
• [12:09] Which Linden: I wonder what they're going to do with their N virtualization options
• [12:09] Which Linden: Oracle bought Sun
• [12:09] Latif Khalifa: no idea what's gonna happen with mysql either
• [12:09] Dahlia Trimble: oh didnt know that
• [12:10] Latif Khalifa: i wish ibm bought them, somehow i dislike oracle more than ibm
• [12:10] Which Linden: My guess would be that one of the forks (Maria or Drizzle) captures mindshare
• [12:10] Which Linden: It's cause Larray Ellison is uglier than Sam Palmisano
• [12:10] Which Linden:  :-P
• [12:10] Dahlia Trimble: lmao
• [12:10] Latif Khalifa: well oracle doesn't do any open source for starters
• [12:10] Latif Khalifa: lol Which
• [12:10] Which Linden: Actually they do Latif
• [12:10] Which Linden: Not much though
• [12:11] Which Linden: So in general that is correct
• [12:11] Latif Khalifa: oh well I liked PostgreSQL more anyway :P
• [12:11] Latif Khalifa: and its BSD ;)
• [12:12] Which Linden: OK well I've overstayed my hour a bit, I should get on with the day
• [12:12] Which Linden: Thank you so much for such an interesting discussion
• [12:12] Latif Khalifa: good luck with that Which
• [12:12] Latif Khalifa:  :)
• [12:12] Morgaine Dinova: Odd meeting, general tech chat :-)
• [12:12] Latif Khalifa: take care
• [12:12] Which Linden: See you soon!
• Which Linden