User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Dec 20

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

Strife Onizuka: never fried a hd with power surge
Zero Linden: hello all
Zha Ewry: Morning Zero
Kerry Giha: Hello
Wyn Galbraith: Moring Zero
Zero Linden: gooood morning
Strife Onizuka purrs softly
Onder Skall: hi
Wyn Galbraith gives up and rubs STrife's belly.
Lostmedia Ares: hi all ... srry if i landed on you :)
Zero Linden: That is a great Tiger AV
Wyn Galbraith: nice tiger rug
Strife Onizuka growls
Zha Ewry: Most rugs don't growl :-)
Wyn Galbraith: True.
Kippie Friedkin: hehe...this is like musical chairs :)
Zha Ewry: Musical Chairs with slate gray Aves
Zero Linden: Welcome all to my office housr
Zero Linden: er, hours
Zha Ewry: Windlight Lurves to show slate gray aves
Zero Linden obviously hasn't finished enough coffee this morning
j3rry Paine: lol working on my 2nd cup
j3rry Paine: damn out of 1/2+1/2
Strife Onizuka: enough being cute :p
Sloan Skjellerup: hi ya Tree!
Onder Skall: Hey Sloan
Sloan Skjellerup: onder hello
Strife Onizuka: ohhh a chimp
Sloan Skjellerup: I'm still waiting for things to rez here .. am I sitting on anyone? ;-)
Wyn Galbraith: You're still cute Strife.
Twistit Saiman chuckles
Saijanai Kuhn: there are sims where half the zone is black and white when I look in certain directions with WIndlight
Zero Linden: The transcript is posed to the wiki, so speak openly and in public
j3rry Paine: ;-) as opposed to ....
j3rry Paine: we won't talk behind strife's back
Strife Onizuka: :p
Zha Ewry: Giving in and given proximity, Zha reaches out and skritches Strife behind the ears.
j3rry Paine: at least it's not *everything* in black or white
Strife Onizuka can't help but purr a little
upgrade stool turns whispers: Arawn Spitteler is with me.
Imogen Saltair: Greetings all
Remo Iuga: i actually found a Linden im Impressed
Wyn Galbraith: There are many Lindens in the wilds.
Matttt Li: can I ask a question... what are these meetings usually like?
Imogen Saltair: sorry if I sat on anyone
Zha Ewry: So.. Zero.. As we chew through the current UDP packets tuff, I was wondering how much of that you expect to stay, as we move to the next iteration of the design?
Zero Linden: Okay - let's get going
Lillie Yifu: They are almost, but not exactly, completely unlike tea.
Zero Linden: So, since we seem to have a lot of new people here
Remo Iuga: Two Lindens
Remo Iuga: Wow
Zero Linden: a quick intro
Oliver Szondi: hi zero
Zero Linden: I'm Zero Linden - I'm an "Engineering Director" at Linden Lab (one of three)
Savannah Glimmer: Hi Zero, Hi Wyn
prodigy Oldrich: Hey!
Wyn Galbraith: Hello Savannah.
Zero Linden: Rather than have "an organization under me" -- wich would be totally non-Linden --
Fleep Tuque: Woops! Pardon Saijanai
Zero Linden: I'm more of a representative at large
Remo Iuga: and Totally non Socialist too :)
Wyn Galbraith: It's like someone opened a portal and dropped in avatars, it's raining avatars!
Twistit Saiman grins
Oliver Szondi: whats the event
Sammy Grigges: stop bumping plz
Remo Iuga: having a Linden to talk to is like trying to find chicken with Teeth!
Zero Linden: My "platform" is that I'm all about, well, the platform of SL: It's architecture, It's future APIs
Basil Wijaya: sorry
Davros Destiny: Mr Linden
Zero Linden: I hold office hours twice a week - Tuesdays and Thursdays
Oliver Szondi: wow
Zero Linden: to talk about architecture and system design and direction
Davros Destiny: i cannot see you
Zero Linden: and more recently specific technical topics about new, open protocols for the grid
Zero Linden: Therefore, this isn't an open-forum on all things SL
Beyers Sellers: hi all
Davros Destiny: where are you 0
Zero Linden: there are many other Lindens that run office hours and you should check them out too
Remo Iuga: So is Linden going to go opensource with the grid code ?
Zero Linden: So -
Saijanai Kuhn:
Strife Onizuka: if LL doesn't a competitor to SL will
Wyn Galbraith: Lindens are easy to find
will help you find them :D
Davros Destiny: i cannot see you
Davros Destiny: linden
Zero Linden: I'm going to start with the first q. from Zha
Zero Linden: and I'll get to Remo's
Oliver Szondi shouts: whats the matiance for
Davros Destiny: i cant see
Arawn Spitteler: Control-V isn't working.
Hydra Shaftoe: Question: As more open grids are developed and open, will linden lab become a naming system for open sims, similar to tghe way InterNIC operates for the traditional internet?
Zero Linden: (though there is Rob Linden's office hours - specifically about Open Source!)
Arawn Spitteler:
Strife Onizuka: if SL is to remain relavent then SL needs to evolve and be the cutting edge
Oliver Szondi: Zero why did the grid shut down
Remo Iuga: its impossible to get a answer to opensource questions other than "not at this Time"
Twistit Saiman: yesterday? read the blog >.>
Oliver Szondi: cool
Oliver Szondi: thanks
Davros Destiny: mr linden
Davros Destiny: this grid is laggy
Zero Linden: So - Zha, my personal wish is that ALL UDP traffic would GO AWAY!
Twistit Saiman: thats because there are alot of folks here Davros.
Zero Linden: But.... welll..... not likely
Davros Destiny: ah
Zha Ewry hopes the chair she is standin on will rez shortly
Saijanai Kuhn: hooray!
Davros Destiny: and
Davros Destiny: my av
Saijanai Kuhn: darn
Davros Destiny: willnot go on
j3rry Paine: wow zero sounds like fw
Davros Destiny: there we are
Zero Linden: My best expectationof the plan is that first new things like login will be done via the new two-domain, all HTTPS/CAPS system
Davros Destiny: ah
Twistit Saiman: Thats because there alot of folks here Davros, makes it laggy ^^ please just listen and dont worrie about your looks :P
Zero Linden: but that at some point in theprotocol the viewer gets the credentials for the old UDP stream and
Zero Linden: all the parts that have yet to be converted will continue to go over the system as it does now
Remo Iuga: if everyone would take off their personal scripts it would help a lot
Zero Linden: Mind you, there is a sort of odd issue with those UDP messages that should go to the agent domain and those that go to the region domain
Twistit Saiman nods at Remo.
Davros Destiny: 100000000000 people are hear
Zero Linden: I don't know if we establist two streams and just split the message as needed
Zha Ewry glances at Zero
Zero Linden: or if we route all UDP to the region domain and then have the region domain route to the agent domain?
Zha Ewry: I hope, we'll mark that explicitly, since, the splits gooing to be changign things anyway
Davros Destiny: 0
Zero Linden: But I'd hope, as protocols are designed and implemented that more and more of the system would move from UDP to caps
Zha Ewry: How much UDP is agent related?
Davros Destiny: the havok grid
Zha Ewry: The bulk of it is currently I know
Davros Destiny: why do we get 5000 for
Zha Ewry: but.. 90% of what we want to be agent specific is very, very REST appropriate
Remo Iuga: when will interconnect be possible with the other worlds?
Davros Destiny: 0
Tyler2 Rieko: HAPPY HOLLIDAY PEOPLE!
Zero Linden: I think a huge set of messages are agent domain bound: groups, profiles, classifieds, picks, inventory
Tyler2 Rieko: :D
Zha Ewry: 50 main agents in Grasmere? Someone's played with the sime settings
Zero Linden: and you are riht, all of that would be better as rest
Davros Destiny: 0
Davros Destiny: why do we
Davros Destiny: get 5000 on havrok grid/
Saijanai Kuhn mutes the Dalek
Tyler2 Rieko: >_>
Davros Destiny primes his dlake gun
Lostmedia Ares: :)
Mustafaaab Connoisseur: Mr Linden...are there any plans to open up Outer space say up to 20,000k and open the oceans?
Arawn Spitteler thinks that's an excellent question for the Mentors of Help Island, two sims west
Davros Destiny: mr linden
Strife Onizuka: people who have private islands don't want sea access
Davros Destiny: psle anser me
Davros Destiny: wwhy do we get 5000
Davros Destiny: on havok grid
Remo Iuga: yes building above 768 meters would be a good idea
Davros Destiny: yes
Tyler2 Rieko: Why can't we build at 1,000 Metres??!!!?!?!?
Strife Onizuka: you can't force people to test the havok grid
Zero Linden: Davros - there are many people here and quite a number of questions ahead of you, and as I stated, this isn't a general forum for questions
Tyler2 Rieko: It would be awesome.
Davros Destiny: i am making it over 700 foot woulde nice
L1br4r1an Ninetails: He's being nice, that means please shut up and let him talk
Strife Onizuka: there is a havok related office hours later today i think... or is it on tuesdays?
Entering god mode, level 200
Arawn Spitteler: Today at 5PM
Davros Destiny: ah
Sammy Grigges: that's not nice l1br41an
Davros Destiny: where aobuts
Java Mug whispers: Mmmmm...hot cup of Java from Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Arawn Spitteler: Look fro the gaggle at Brampton Sim
Zero Linden: Zha - does that sound like the plan you expectd
Zha Ewry nod
Zha Ewry: Mostly
Davros Destiny: sl has more bugs the a farm
Lillie Yifu: Question: who is the right Linden to talk to about proposed changes to the asset server and other centralized database servers?
Zha Ewry: I am trying to decide if the best thoguht is as you suggested, route it all to the region sim, and then pass it over to the agent domain, or run two streams
Rose Leckrone is amused that she crashed during the meeting..
Matttt Li: Q - Any thought of deploying multiple grids so that position on the grid doesn't become a point of struggle between private SIM owners? Unless they are connected by Open SIMs, the position on the grid isn't relevant except for viewing on the Map.
Tyler2 Rieko: Mr. Linden i have a question:Why can't we build at 1,000 metres,it would be cool after all.
Zha Ewry: Two UDP streams, just sounds like a twice as likely to lose the long poll situation
Wyn Galbraith: 5pm tonight, Andrew @ Brampton for Havok for all who are interested. Software will always have bugs, you just don't notice all o fthem.
Oliver Szondi: hi i apppolgies
Saijanai Kuhn: Tyler2, Andrew LInden has answers to questions about physics and related things
Oliver Szondi: zero linden i had troble with lag (going into the sea)
Zha Ewry: While, re-routing via the regiona sim, is painful to contemplate, it's much simpler.
Zero Linden: Well, the problem with one stream is that it means the regions have to be totally trusted during that time
Zero Linden: since all the agent domain traffice will route through them
Zha Ewry: Right
Oliver Szondi shouts: i been having problems with lag
L1br4r1an Ninetails notes, go to meeting hosted by Andrew to ask physics related questions
Davros Destiny: zero
Zha Ewry: I wouldn't want to do it for very long
Oliver Szondi shouts: its nice to see you agin zero
Zero Linden: though now that I think of it - we *coudl* have a "catch all" CAP to the agent domain per agent - and the region domain could re-submit the message that and agent sent via that cap
Zha Ewry: But, if the trade off is to do it that way, and then move things, one cap at a time to the REST on agent domain directly.. it strikes me as plausible
Zero Linden: that would be secure
Davros Destiny: 0
Zha Ewry: Do we have a sense of how many caps are giong to migrate to the agent domain?
Strife Onizuka: doing it as a catch all would put extra strain on teh sim to act as a proxy
Davros Destiny: i have had atleast 4 mates inluding me that have had to log out up to 5 times per hour
Zha Ewry: I'm thining its about 25% of the total client/sim caps
Davros Destiny: its horiable
Davros Destiny: you im them
Davros Destiny: then they log and crash
L1br4r1an Ninetails: the 5-minute long freezes aren't getting any better either
Oliver Szondi shouts: zero why was the grid shut down
Durk Duncan: Strife is correct
Davros Destiny: once i loged then crashed withen a minute
Davros Destiny: and had to lo
Davros Destiny: g
Tyler2 Rieko shouts: because of unabilityto rez objects,i think.
Zha Ewry: Well, the sim's handling all that traffic today, and this is a migration setp
Davros Destiny: yes
Strife Onizuka: Davros, this isn't the forum for your problems
Davros Destiny: i has in a empty sim
Twistit Saiman: Oliver did you read the blog?
Davros Destiny: yes
Tree Kyomoon: anyone else just crash then?
Zha Ewry: I don't htink anyone wants the sim to relaty long term
Davros Destiny: but my proumlsum are yours too
Zero Linden: Zha - there are about 500 messages in the system today
Oliver Szondi shouts: then the next beta second life comming
Zero Linden: I think slight more than 200 are probably viewer -> agent domain
Zha Ewry sighs
Zha Ewry: Ouch more than I had thought
Zero Linden: now in a REST environment, most of these are pairs that collapse to one message
Oliver Szondi: and what will happen about the intnet ip cris
Zero Linden: since they are request and response
Oliver Szondi: by 2012 their will be no more ip adresses
Davros Destiny: why not
Zero Linden: And some of them are variations on a theme that in REST would be one message with an LLSD body with variants
Twistit Saiman: rofl
Davros Destiny: why no ip?
Twistit Saiman: Oliver funny man :)
Zha Ewry nods at zero
Zero Linden: So I don't think we are talking more than about 100 to 150 actuall REST APIs
Saijanai Kuhn: 556 with a handful already dual caps/UDP
Durk Duncan mutes the trash can
Hydra Shaftoe: ok I'm done with the dalek shit
Zero Linden: Folks - let's please not have other conversations
Zha Ewry: So, about probably about 50-100 actual protocol transactions, when all is said,
Davros Destiny: thats dalek
Hydra Shaftoe: bye
Wyn Galbraith: 2012 is when the Mayan calendar ends and maybe the world as we know it, who knows. Davros could you stop that?
Zero Linden: Zha - sounds about right
Zha Ewry: about 1/3 invarients on noun sets
Zero Linden: and I think slightly fewer for the simulator
Davros Destiny: whats mayan
L1br4r1an Ninetails: Concerning the chat system, are there any plans to change the way group IMs are handled, so that when active numbers larger than 50 are sent a group IM it doesn't crash them during synch?
Oliver Szondi shouts: what will happen when the IPs run out
Zero Linden: Oliver - ask the IETF
Davros Destiny: what do you mwean loi
Oliver Szondi: ok will do
Strife Onizuka: this isn't the forum for talking about the future of IP
Oliver Szondi: nice to see you zero
Zha Ewry: So, presumably, we pick a small set of REST nouns to do first, and define that as the initial agent domain functionality?
Strife Onizuka: sounds reasonable
Zero Linden: I think we get login working - with the UDP hack
Saijanai Kuhn: hopefully the busiest/most important ones get done first to relieve the strain on the sim
Davros Destiny: i am going
Davros Destiny: adios
Zero Linden: that should enable a viewer to log into a dev grid at LL or a grid at OpenSim
Oliver Szondi: in 2003 their was a worm on sl
Zha Ewry blinks for a moment, and wonders abiout the interim step, where you have the odl UDP caps on the region and the new ones on the agent domain
Zero Linden: but probably not cross-log in
Oliver Szondi: and that was sorted out
Zero Linden: then we start moving things section at a time to REST API after identifying the minimal set that gets us cross-login in (LL agent domain, OPen sim region)
Zha Ewry nods at Zero
Zero Linden: Zha - I think it will be okay -
Tao Takashi: Hi!
Tao Takashi: thanks to xmas I am late :-/
Saijanai Kuhn: beyond login, how will you priortize the shift over?
Davros Destiny: bye
Zha Ewry exhales deeply as the staircase challanged Dalek vanishes
Zero Linden: Well - I think inventory will be first - mostly because there is already internal work on that for the current system (moving it to a better API)
Tao Takashi: (does somebody have a chat log of the beginning of it)
Rose Leckrone puts away what is left of the mashed potatoes she threw at him
[9:12] Saijanai Kuhn: So that new API will help address teh ongoing inventory issues?
[9:12] Zero Linden: There are two things - one is improving the inventory transfer to/from viewer
[9:12] Zha Ewry: I guess, Zero, I'm wondering if the migration path is going to be to put the new function into the agent domain, re-direct the UPD stream onto it from the sim, and then do the client, or if you will have both in parallel
[9:12] Zero Linden: (which I think entails moving the messages from UDP to TCP -- go message liberation!)
[9:13] Zha Ewry is kind of tempted to suggest making little UDP->caps brdiges on the region sim, and then, moving the traffic to the caps direcly
[9:13] Zero Linden: (and go Aura Linden who is working on it!)
[9:13] Tree Kyomoon: me thinks someone might build a viewer out of papervision3d.org
[9:13] Tree Kyomoon: if its all service based and open anyway
[9:13] Tao Takashi: Thanks Lillie :-)
[9:14] Zero Linden: The other entails improving the internal API from the sims to the inventory servers - at present it is database access (MYSQL statements executed by the "dataserver" helper process on the simualtor host)
[9:14] Zero Linden: and moving them to a REST API handled by a bank of web service machines (who, of course, do the back end database access)
[9:14] thomtrance Otoole: :)
[9:14] Zero Linden: This is a win because the DB access is confined to a group a machines rather than the whole grid of simulator hosts
[9:15] Zero Linden: And becuase that API from the simulators is a more rational, supportable, future proof REST API
[9:15] Tao Takashi: so the proxy situation for that would go away?
[9:15] Zha Ewry: should also make it much easier to loadbalance
[9:15] Zero Linden: THAT API will eventuall move to the agent hosts and I hope to the viewers (via caps)
[9:15] Zero Linden: yes, it should
[9:15] L1br4r1an Ninetails: trading one kind of lag for another... meh, still an improvement
[9:15] Zha Ewry: and..
[9:16] Anna Tretiak: /ao off
[9:16] Tao Takashi: so I was wondering if that proxy situation is actually a bottleneck
[9:16] Morrison McDonnell: hey every one.
[9:16] Zero Linden: Tao - which proxy? The cap proxy or the "proxy" of the web service boxes?
[9:16] Zha Ewry: It moves you to a good place if you want to allow other regions to access the asset servers, with different trust rules
[9:16] Tao Takashi: I mean that the sim basically is proxying stuff to the backend servers
[9:16] Morrison McDonnell: how do i chnage what i look like?
[9:16] Tao Takashi: like I want inventory, I ask the sim instead of the asset server
[9:16] Zero Linden: Oh - yes, THAT proxy -
[9:16] thomtrance Otoole: you need that abstraction layer imho , for inv servers
[9:17] Zero Linden: indeed - getting the sim out of the loop for all sorts of things that it is just a proxy for is a huge win
[9:17] Tao Takashi: so I wonder if this is in fact a bottleneck or not as I hardly can do measurements on that code ;-)
[9:17] Tao Takashi: I would also like quite much if it's possible to do many things without actually being on a region
[9:17] Knildrig Aabye: /
[9:18] Zha Ewry: Well, Tao, lets be careful to distinguish where it is for migration, and where it ends up
[9:18] Tao Takashi: like basically most of the agent domain stuff, inventory management, group management, IM, friends management etc.
[9:18] Zha Ewry: There is *no* reason for any of the long term stuff to relay
[9:18] j3rry Paine: any thoughts of say, mosix
[9:18] Zha Ewry: but plenty of reason to do it short term
[9:18] Zero Linden: most of the stuff that would go to the agent domain is like that -- in fact right now, the sim has a generic procedure that simply forwards messages to the data server
[9:18] Tao Takashi: well, more thinking about the long term goal here. LL needs to put the priorities in
[9:19] Saijanai Kuhn: group IM shouldneed sim presence. Likewise for querying L$ account balances
[9:19] Zero Linden: Actually, one of the biggest proxy drains on the sim is textures -- they all go through the simulator and it is a lot of data
[9:19] Lillie Yifu: I think you mean should not Saij, becaus after all we can query Linden balances now without sim presence through the web page.
[9:19] Twistit Saiman agrees
[9:20] Oliver Szondi: thakns linden
[9:20] Tao Takashi: not sure why the sim should be needed for IMs, I just need to be logged in to an agent domain. and actually in the long run I would like something like Jabber to be used anyway and I can also chat with e.g. the AWGroupies group via some normal IM messenger
[9:20] Saijanai Kuhn: should NOT* yeah
[9:20] Fleep Tuque: Agree completely, IM integration with jabber would be neat-o-keen.
[9:20] j3rry Paine: twitter done already
[9:21] Tree Kyomoon: so textures will be able to be externally hosted in future right?
[9:21] Zero Linden: we have a code branch that Steve Linden did that moves all the textures to caps - which means that the path is asset -> squid cache -> cap proxy -> viewer
[9:21] Saijanai Kuhn: it may be due to the current message passing as to why IM and local chat are so intertwined
[9:21] Fleep Tuque: Yes, but not my friends list here..
[9:21] Fleep Tuque: ;)
[9:21] Oliver Szondi: why was the company called linden
[9:21] Tao Takashi: I would also like textures without caps, just a URL ;-)
[9:21] Saijanai Kuhn: an aley in San Francisco near the original office, Oliver
[9:21] Zero Linden: by intertwined do you mean - often out of order?!?!? :-)
[9:21] Tao Takashi: Oliver: because they started on Linden St.
[9:21] Lostmedia Ares: Zero , Do you have a timeframe for this change to take place ?... And how much grid disruption can we expect durin the impimentation
[9:21] Tree Kyomoon: yes, caps seems unnecessary to me
[9:21] Tao Takashi: well, caps seem necessary if there are perms on it
[9:21] Oliver Szondi: oh cool thanks
[9:21] j3rry Paine: Does enchantment pour Out of ev'ry door? No, it's just on the street where you live!
[9:22] Tree Kyomoon: ah true Tao...good point
[9:22] Saijanai Kuhn: LOL I meant interdependent on the sim presence
[9:22] Zero Linden: Tao - we did a design where you could put a URL instead of a texture ID on a face - then that URL would get sent to the viewer rather than the cap URL
[9:22] Lostmedia Ares: anyone got a spellchecker i can borrow :))
[9:22] L1br4r1an Ninetails has learned not to ask about grid disruption, nobody actually knows for sure, and it doesn't matter anyway.
[9:22] Zero Linden: the great thing is that the viewer doesn't even care
[9:22] Oliver Szondi: zero is this your office
[9:22] Tao Takashi: Zero: cool
[9:22] Twistit Saiman: Oliver.. seriously..
[9:22] Wyn Galbraith: Oliver, this is Zero's office.
[9:22] Tree Kyomoon: very nice
[9:22] Zero Linden: But there are some UI issues that we have to do to support that - in particualr, we need to be able to display the URL to a user on demand
[9:22] Oliver Szondi: very nice place
[9:22] Tao Takashi: btw, is there any news regarding the last office hour?
[9:23] Zero Linden: since we aren't hosting that content - users need a way to know who is
[9:23] Morrison McDonnell: can any one help me?
[9:23] j3rry Paine: won't the url tell?
[9:23] Zero Linden: Well - *** Today is the last office hours for me for the year ***
[9:23] Twistit Saiman: lol
[9:23] Tao Takashi: and regarding login: is there any short term plan on how to get this going? I would like to see how my login server behaves ;-)
[9:23] camilla Yosuke: how would the permissions be managed with textrues as url ?
[9:23] Morrison McDonnell: shwo do i change what i look like?
[9:23] Wyn Galbraith: If you need help or have questions about your avatar and SecondLife, you can find answers at the Help Islands and mentors to answer them: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Help%20Island%20Public/128/128/0
[9:23] Zero Linden: J3rry - yes, but we need a UI where a user can say "eeek - that's my copyrighted work - give me the URL so I can send a DMCA notice"
[9:24] Zero Linden: otherwise they'd have to send it to us - but we aren't hosting it
[9:24] Lillie Yifu: J3rry the url could be hard to find out who is, it could be a tinyurl for example, which does not tell you anything, or it could belong to a windows machine that has been turned into a bot.
[9:24] Tao Takashi: right click -> copy texture location ;-)
[9:24] Strife Onizuka: you could put the URL in the tooltip
[9:24] Tao Takashi: but tinyurl will redirect you there
[9:24] j3rry Paine: how will ll do any better than that?
[9:24] Lostmedia Ares: Morrison .. i will send you a privet message telling you how to go about altering your look
[9:24] Tree Kyomoon: texture locations would be dynamically hashed based on session right?
[9:24] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, have you considered watermarking texures on uplad as an option for say$L5 per upload?
[9:24] Tao Takashi: there is even more chance with that URL than somebody uploading that texture
[9:24] Zero Linden: *** First office hours of new year: Jan 8th, 2008 *
[9:25] Tao Takashi: then it's a LL URL and not much is won depending on the avatar who uploaded it
[9:25] Saijanai Kuhn: time/date stamp, grid and avatar as part of the watermark
[9:25] Tree Kyomoon: is this the last office hours of 07?
[9:25] Strife Onizuka: watermarks can be stripped if you know how they were attached
[9:25] j3rry Paine: yup yup tao
[9:25] Lillie Yifu: suggestion: if textures can be external urls there also needs to be something in preferences that is like cookies - deciding which ones to accept. "Only LL hosted content", "Onlycontent that I have certificatses for.", "All content"
[9:25] Saijanai Kuhn: Strife, server side option, and a nuisance DRM, not a "solution"
[9:25] Zero Linden: Saijanai - we've tended to stay away from measures that are approximate and are defeatable by "smart guys"
[9:25] j3rry Paine: good plan zero
[9:26] j3rry Paine: ;-) how's that working lol
[9:26] Zero Linden: Watermarking has many flaws - I understand there is some proprietary technology that enables watermarks to survive jpeg encoding (don't know about jpeg2, which we use) -
[9:26] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, if its proprietary, NOM
[9:26] Saijanai Kuhn: nm
[9:26] camilla Yosuke: eek
[9:26] j3rry Paine: cryptonomicon
[9:27] Zero Linden: but even so - once the bits are on your screen.... well, you hve the bits
[9:27] Zha Ewry: I don't think anyone is entrhalled with watermarking, but it is one of the less totally absurd aproaches
[9:27] Tao Takashi: so regarding login again, I think the plan was to give out a legacy URL for login to login to the existing grid as a start. I just wonder now which one that is with the new auth system :)
[9:27] Zha Ewry: and. yes, in the end, you have the "give the bits, or don't give the bits" problem
[9:27] Oliver Szondi: has inden ever thoght about having a PDA version of second life
[9:27] j3rry Paine: the bozo bit problem
[9:27] Zha Ewry: Once you give the bits. YOu have given the bits
[9:27] lora Pelous: haj
[9:28] Tao Takashi is more generous and gives bytes
[9:28] Saijanai Kuhn: Oliver, look up ajax second life on google
[9:28] j3rry Paine: don't want me to look at your bits keep em off my screen
[9:28] Strife Onizuka: LCC (limited capability clients) would cover PDAs
[9:28] j3rry Paine: i want nibbles
[9:28] Zero Linden: Well, I'd love a PDA or phone version of SL ---- but at present have you noticed how slow the framerate is even on a powerful computer? PDAs and Phones don't have serious 3D support
[9:28] Zha Ewry: But.. allowing for some way of chasing down license and such, is kinf of desirable
[9:29] Tree Kyomoon: pda / phone versions have been "the future" for many years
[9:29] Zero Linden: We have talked about meta data --- being able to point at a texture and determine who uploaded it
[9:29] Twistit Saiman: *chuckles* would love to see how they would cram all that hardware in a pda that hardly fits in a laptop ;) (offtopic :P)
[9:29] Zero Linden: No clear solution yet
[9:29] Wyn Galbraith: Oh geeze, I'd better get a new phone that can handle it.
[9:29] camilla Yosuke: this sounds more interesting, though
[9:29] Zha Ewry nods
[9:29] Zha Ewry: Two issues, at least
[9:29] Tree Kyomoon: /people dont get that phones are bad at most things other than phoning people
[9:29] Strife Onizuka: jpeg2k has a comment feild, there is no reason that information couldn't be writteninto the comment feild
[9:29] Wyn Galbraith: SL compatible computers, phones, pdas.
[9:30] Zha Ewry: One is marking the license ont he asset
[9:30] Kerry Giha: Zero Like with the ability to see a texture size it would be a neat thing to be able to see who uploaded the texture
[9:30] Zha Ewry: the other is various ways of allowing people to mark textures
[9:30] Zero Linden: Strife - it does, though I'm not sure it is Unicode.....
[9:30] Kerry Giha: That would be a good place for it
[9:30] Zero Linden: and we could.... but we were looking at meta data for toher assets as well - tryng to come up witha consistent scheme
[9:30] Zha Ewry: 90% of them are of limtied utiilty against a determined thief
[9:30] Zero Linden: haven't foudn it yet
[9:30] Zero Linden: Anyhow all - I have to go
[9:30] Zero Linden: 'nother meeting (fie!)
[9:31] Zha Ewry: But.. we lock cars, knowing serious car thiefs can break into them
[9:31] Zero Linden: thanks for all come
[9:31] Zero Linden: It has been a great year
[9:31] Fleep Tuque: Thanks Zero
[9:31] Zha Ewry: Thanks Zero
[9:31] Tree Kyomoon: can someone pass me a transcript?
[9:31] Zero Linden: I'll see you all in 2008
[9:31] Fleep Tuque: Congrats on surviving another year. :)
[9:31] camilla Yosuke: ty ! Happy Xmas Zero
[9:31] Arawn Spitteler remembers when two way wrist communicators with graphics support were presented on Television; the name Joe Jitzu comes to mind; PDAs and Phones with adequate hardware for SL are in a much closer future.
[9:31] Strife Onizuka: the comment feild i didn't think had a charachter type assigned to it