User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Feb 13

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[12:54]	Willow Ranger:	hi redd....
[12:54]	Thermoriax Golding:	I just consider the source, Johnny...
[12:54]	No room to sit here, try another spot.
[12:54]	Zero Linden:	what am I doing up here?
[12:54]	Johnny Clarke:	l0l
[12:55]	Redd Nyle:	Hey there Zero
[12:55]	Thermoriax Golding snugs her wings back around Zero...
[12:55]	Johnny Clarke:	u r the linden.. xD
[12:55]	No room to sit here, try another spot.
[12:55]	Zero Linden:	okay - I'll sit here
[12:55]	Zero Linden:	hi all!
[12:55]	Johnny Clarke:	heyhey
[12:55]	Dezire Moonlight:	Hello
[12:55]	Thermoriax Golding:	Hi, Low, Median...
[12:55]	Fremont Cunningham:	Hello Zero
[12:55]	Redd Nyle:	Thanks for having us!
[12:55]	Zero Linden:	thanks for coming
[12:56]	Thermoriax Golding:	There are quite a lot of us wanting tech info, ya...
[12:56]	Johnny Clarke:	i think this is great..
[12:56]	Johnny Clarke:	and i actually thought, there would be more ppl
[12:57]	Everett Mills:	Maybe people didn't realize it was 1pm PST. I'm East coast.
[12:57]	Johnny Clarke:	i see a naked woman.. xD
[12:57]	Thermoriax Golding:	People that /want/ to dig into Client/ Server handshaking...?
[12:57]	Redd Nyle:	I'm glad there aren't, this is so much more personal
[12:57]	Dezire Moonlight:	very true
[12:57]	Johnny Clarke:	i guess were not complete yet.. ^^
[12:57]	Thermoriax Golding:	1pm LindenTime, which is PST...
[12:57]	Johnny Clarke:	but u r right
[12:57]	Zero Linden:	what - there aren't enough people here for ya? there are for me!
[12:58]	Johnny Clarke:	no, thats not what im saying..^^
[12:58]	Thermoriax Golding:	There... put my Developer cap on...
[12:58]	Zero Linden:	okay - I have no format for this - and haven't done one before, so it's kinda open....
[12:58]	Zero Linden:	...
[12:58]	Zero Linden:	but
[12:59]	Zero Linden:	I'd like to make sure that everyone gets to participate
[12:59]	Zero Linden:	so don't take it the wrong way if I table a discussions
[12:59]	Zero Linden:	for later
[12:59]	Johnny Clarke:	sure thing..
[12:59]	Redd Nyle:	Can you start by telling us a little about yourself?
[12:59]	Zero Linden:	if there really aren't any others, we'll come back to it
[12:59]	Zero Linden:	Indeed
[12:59]	Zero Linden:	I'm a "Studio Director" --
[12:59]	Fremont Cunningham:	maybe tell us what parts of the technology you know about, Zero?
[12:59]	Zero Linden:	which is Linden-speak for a person who
[13:00]	Johnny Clarke:	let him talk l0l
[13:00]	Zero Linden:	leads a group of engineers on a related set of projects
[13:00]	Zero Linden:	things that last more than just a few weeks
[13:00]	Zero Linden:	my studio, Studio Icehouse, is working on message infranstructure -- the parts of the system that glue things together
[13:00]	Johnny Clarke:	oO
[13:01]	Johnny Clarke:	ouch..
[13:01]	Zero Linden:	since that is currently limiting our options in the mid-term future (like 6 mons. to a year)
[13:01]	Zero Linden:	An example is teh dreaded "Message Template"
[13:01]	Zero Linden:	which describes the messages that peices send to each other
[13:01]	Zero Linden:	right now - every SW piece has to be running the same version
[13:01]	Zero Linden:	which is why we often have to bring the grid down
[13:01]	Zero Linden:	or force you to upgrade the viewer
[13:02]	Thermoriax Golding:	Ohyes... I definitely want to talk about insystem messaging...
[13:02]	Zero Linden:	our studio is working to remove that restriction from the template
[13:02]	Thermoriax Golding:	Ever get the feeling you should have rented a stadium...? ;}
[13:02]	Zero Linden:	whcih in turn will enable things like gradual sim updates, more optional viewers, estate owner choosing update time, beta tests as part of the live grid, etc....
[13:03]	Zero Linden:	gosh - welcome all
[13:03]	Tree Kyomoon:	hello there! DId anyone ask about Mono yet?
[13:03]	Zero Linden:	who knew this many nerds^h^h^h^h^hnice avatars would show up?
[13:03]	Dezire Moonlight:	LOL
[13:03]	Thermoriax Golding:	YOu just did...
[13:04]	Tree Kyomoon:	:)
[13:04]	Tree Kyomoon:	well?? the lack of arrays is killing me!
[13:04]	Zero Linden:	okay - mono -
[13:04]	Thermoriax Golding:	You have strings... you have Notecards... make your arrays...
[13:04]	Zero Linden:	realize that the first roll out of mono will still just support the LSL language
[13:04]	Thermoriax Golding:	How hard is it to make a translation layer...?
[13:04]	Zero Linden:	which, alas, means crummy data structures
[13:04]	Tree Kyomoon:	is there a plan to go ECMA
[13:05]	Fremont Cunningham:	Crummier than now?
[13:05]	Zero Linden:	well - MONO means that we have a VM that supports multiple langauges
[13:05]	Zero Linden:	BUT
[13:05]	Johnny Clarke:	why so many questions at once guys? keep it cool..
[13:05]	Zero Linden:	no no, not crummier than now - exactly as crummy as now - it will be the same LSL language
[13:05]	Redd Nyle:	Guys, let's give some room, we'll get to everything.
[13:05]	Zero Linden:	BUT
[13:05]	Zero Linden:	adding support for another language
[13:05]	Zero Linden:	will
[13:06]	Zero Linden:	mena having to port/build interfaces to the whole LSL library
[13:06]	Zero Linden:	and figuring out how to match the execution model of the langague to scripts in prims
[13:06]	Heather Goodliffe:	Zero, theoretially we could add a a compiler to the open SL client that compiles other langauges and uploads the CLR?
[13:06]	Zero Linden:	most languages run a main() function and quit... which doesn't match scripts on an object, now does it
[13:06]	Thermoriax Golding:	No, but Realtime handlers do...
[13:06]	Zero Linden:	Heather - yes, you could, but we aren't supporting the full CLR - as the full CLR didn't anticipate an environment like SL
[13:07]	Fremont Cunningham:	It does as long as you dont quit.
[13:07]	Zero Linden:	so we'd have to carefully screen the assemblies
[13:07]	Zero Linden:	and that work isn't done
[13:07]	Heather Goodliffe:	right, but the compiler is in the client, so I'd imagine the compiling to the mono CLR would still be int he client?
[13:07]	Zero Linden:	Fremont - we are event based in our scripting, and while a loop that doesn't quit might seem right - we don't want each person to have tow rite an event fetch loop
[13:07]	Zero Linden:	in other languages
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	Heather -
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	the compiler will be moving to the simulator for LSL very soon now
[13:08]	Heather Goodliffe:	ah, ok :)
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	so, uploading compiled CLR will require a CLR verification step (like the Java verifier)
[13:08]	Fremont Cunningham imagined a standard interrupt vector set
[13:08]	Fremont Cunningham:	But ..
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	Fremont - I can too, but again, we're going to have to come up with the "standard" way to map this into each langauge
[13:09]	Tree Kyomoon:	how about running from the mozilla to SL and back with scripts?
[13:09]	Tree Kyomoon:	is that a workaround?
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	Tree - not sure how you mean - but, for many reasons, scripts really need to execute on the server
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	for one, they are the only form of asset that we can completely protect since they never need to leave our network
[13:10]	Thermoriax Golding:	Data security, for one good reason...
[13:10]	Tree Kyomoon:	well if I need to do some math that SL doesnt handle, I can pass stuff from SL to say flash, then return results
[13:11]	Fremont Cunningham:	Is it still thought that LSL>MONO> CLR> ... will result in 'LSL running a lot faster' ?
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	true - for example now, many people do that sort of work by passing comuptation out to external servers via llHTTPRequest or e-mail and XML-RPC
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	Yes, LSL compiled to CLR, run on MONO is dramatically faster
[13:11]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes, but HTTP request HIDES the header info
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	thogh it depends on what your are doing
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	Tree, what does it hide? you mean the headers on the response?
[13:12]	Tree Kyomoon:	well I had asked about sending proprietery authentication headers
[13:12]	Tree Kyomoon:	SL should ignore them
[13:12]	Tree Kyomoon:	but it just gobbles them up
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	yes, we don't have support for the script to get those
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	that could be added later
[13:13]	Tree Kyomoon:	that would be AWESOME
[13:13]	Tree Kyomoon:	:)
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	it is common to put authentication challenges in the body - since usually most people come up with custom body formats for their LSL scripts anyway
[13:13]	Tree Kyomoon:	well, not in the internet world
[13:13]	Tree Kyomoon:	at least in my experience
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	true - if you are tring to talk to existing services -- though most have found LSL inadequate for parsing such things
[13:14]	Tree Kyomoon:	its really close....Im pretty excited about what ive been able to do so far
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	alas - I appologize - I worked on llHTTPRequest - and it was great fun my first six months here to be adding new features that people used
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	now, alas
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	many of us have dedicated ourselves
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	to less sexy tasks like message system
[13:16]	Fremont Cunningham:	What about resource control under MONO? At present many sims are saturated by excessive scripts. Running faster should help - but eventually people will hog the resources again.
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	to enable this place to scale massivly
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	whch - in a way - has it's own charm
[13:16]	Thermoriax Golding:	Ya... I was wondering about the scaling, myself...
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	let me answer Fremont's question - but let's move on to scaling from scripts for awhile
[13:17]	Radslns Hutchence:	its always about the messages
[13:17]	Heather Goodliffe:	yeah, I actually came here because I couldn't get anything done atm
[13:17]	Heather Goodliffe:	grid seems to be having issues
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	yes - there has been brewing talk about a mor comprehensive system for resource utilization
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	tying many more things to prims
[13:17]	Heather Goodliffe:	seems to happen around 2pm most days
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	or rather prim allotment
[13:17]	Thermoriax Golding:	for an N number of users increase, the messages increase how... Log (N)... N*N... N^2...?
[13:18]	Dezire Moonlight:	listens intently to changes
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	but it is difficult to come up with a plan that works equitably for land owners, avatars with attachments, and visitors working on your land
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	messages? well - now that isn't a simple answer
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	- but this is a tech crowd!
[13:18]	Heather Goodliffe:	Zero, account level quotas is somethign I had suggested
[13:18]	Thermoriax Golding:	We need to separate physical prims, from construction prims, and perhaps even from Scripting prims...?
[13:18]	Fremont Cunningham:	Just limiting Scripts attached to an Av, to say 100 max would help a lot
[13:19]	RJ Source:	A tech crown - but many sugar crashing from lunch..
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	he he
[13:19]	Dezire Moonlight:	do you mean that the prims an avatar wears will then count against the land?
[13:19]	Heather Goodliffe:	dezinre, I mean quotas for all resources
[13:19]	Dezire Moonlight:	ah k
[13:19]	Thermoriax Golding:	Sounds more like a simple ceiling to Scripts- On_ PRims, Sis...
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	On limits - no, it isn't clear how to handle attachments - and even high end limits, like 100 scripts per, are probably not enough
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	okay - I'mgoing to move onto messages
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	when y ou are in a region
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	like here
[13:20]	Thermoriax Golding:	What would /use/ 100 scripts on an AV, really...?
[13:20]	Radslns Hutchence:	bad design
[13:20]	Radslns Hutchence:	some weapons systems
[13:20]	Thermoriax Golding:	Very...
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	the simulator is responsible for handling all the messages
[13:20]	Heather Goodliffe:	LSL kind of is condusive to bad design
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	for the whole region
[13:20]	Thermoriax Golding:	Weapon systems can offload some of that to object prims...
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	AND all the avatars in it
[13:20]	Kenny Bumbo:	do any of u think im sexy
[13:21]	Heather Goodliffe:	if you want modular code you have to have multiple scripts
[13:21]	Radslns Hutchence:	No kenny
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	some aspects of
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	the problem are inheritly O^2
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	if there are 40 avatars moving, each viewer needs the messages of all 40 avatars+ 40*40 load
[13:22]	Dezire Moonlight:	Kenny this is a meeting
[13:22]	Thermoriax Golding:	Square increase...
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	Kenny join us please
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	or....
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	well
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	okay
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	BUT
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	right now much of the other work is really only scaled liniearly
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	linearly
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	like doing search or inventory
[13:23]	Thermoriax Golding:	Is there a way we can send non- secure messages from client to client, perhaps...?
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	it's just that the load on this sim for all of us is much greater than the load on another sim with only one av in it
[13:23]	Thermoriax Golding:	More a Peer to Peer arrangement...?
[13:23]	Tree Kyomoon:	have you guys explored HHCodes to make the voxels render more efficiently?
[13:23]	Radslns Hutchence:	what's the message packet like Zero? any chances to make it smaller and shorter
[13:24]	Radslns Hutchence:	get more messages moving faster?
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	Well, peer-to-peer messaging has problems for most people with firewalls
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	Voice over IP does it with horrible tricks
[13:24]	Heather Goodliffe:	I was in a sim with 80 AVs in it the other day
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	that I'm not sure we want to code
[13:24]	Thermoriax Golding:	Once SL scales beyond a certain point, some tasks have to be shared off server...
[13:24]	Thermoriax Golding:	We cannot reasonably ask the Server to relay everything...
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	So, the packets are pretty small - and we don't see data size as the problem - just managign them
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	so a plan
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	is move avatar related messages to an avatar server
[13:25]	Thermoriax Golding:	Sounds good...
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	leaving the sims to just simulate and deal with messages
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	that are just region based
[13:25]	Fremont Cunningham:	Once central Avatar server? Or one per sim.. or few sims?
[13:25]	Radslns Hutchence:	do you persist messages to file regularly? in a DBMS? or is it all memory based?
[13:25]	Radslns Hutchence:	the client to client messages?
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	another tactic is to move manythings, like search, into HTTP based queries that your viewer can do, whcih means they can be vectored to other machines
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	right now the simulator for the region you are in must proxy the request for searches
[13:26]	Tree Kyomoon:	google search in SL
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	Fremont - the design would be one avatar server per N on-line avatars, where N is like 100 or 500 or so
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	(number to be determined, actuall)
[13:27]	Willow Ranger:	sounds costly ....
[13:27]	Fremont Cunningham:	Like he says - cost of scaling...
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	so we decouple the two axes of growth: land and on-line agents, into two independently growable servers: simulators for land, agent hosts for on-line agents
[13:28]	RJ Source:	Could be worse. Cost-wise.
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	well - at present we put a CPU on-line for every region - currently at what, 5000 and growing?
[13:28]	Thermoriax Golding:	Now... is there a way to break up the assets, perhaps making them a bit easer to handle...?
[13:28]	Radslns Hutchence:	yes
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	so, putting a CPU on line for every 500 on-line agents wouldn't be that hard for us
[13:28]	Fremont Cunningham:	What does this do for the horrors of sim boundary crossing in a plane at 100kM/h with 5 riders?
[13:28]	Radslns Hutchence:	hot assets.. stored closer to the AV
[13:28]	Radslns Hutchence:	and cold one
[13:28]	Radslns Hutchence:	s
[13:29]	Radslns Hutchence:	where delay is more acceptable
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	Rads - no, we don't ever persist messages
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	Fremont - makes it MUCH MUCH better
[13:29]	Fremont Cunningham:	Great!
[13:29]	Thermoriax Golding:	Ya... that would make people creep out real quick... the things they do here, being recorded...
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	see - at present, when all five of you cross - not only does the sim have to hand off the plane, but it has to hand off managemnt of 5 AVs
[13:29]	Heather Goodliffe:	Thermoriax, most things are recorded
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	and do this while IMs may be flying around, etc...
[13:29]	Radslns Hutchence:	again.. we're talking internal messages
[13:29]	Fremont Cunningham:	Right
[13:29]	Radslns Hutchence:	not chat
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	in the new design, the agents would never leave their agent host during this
[13:30]	Willow Ranger:	how about if the region-server and the avatar server arent in the same datacenter?
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	so the sim just has to hand off the plane
[13:31]	Heather Goodliffe:	the messages aren't recorded, but transactions with the database are
[13:31]	Fremont Cunningham:	av attach points all handle ok?
[13:31]	Tree Kyomoon:	that sounds like a great plan , Zero
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	the goal would be to allow the agent hosts and sim hosts to not be in the same datacenter - and use the public internet if not, though if they were, it would a faster connection
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	but again, there should much less hand off as you fly around
[13:32]	Karen Linden:	hi all
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	so while we are adding a
[13:32]	Dimitrio Lewis waves to Karen
[13:32]	Redd Nyle:	Hi Karen
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	message path (agent host to simulator) we are reducing the amount of data moved
[13:32]	Tree Kyomoon:	then you could opensource the sim servers and av servers at different times!
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	indeed... we could...!
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	wow - look at tis crowd
[13:33]	Tree Kyomoon:	so any progress on Mozilla?
[13:34]	Thermoriax Golding:	LIke I said from the start... there are a lot of people hungry for some Tech Specs...
[13:34]	Zero Linden:	Note - we don't actually record much other than the state of things - the onlly transactions in the DB we record are L$ transactions
[13:34]	Zero Linden:	since those need careful accounting
[13:35]	Martian Manga:	I'm a bit surprised by Linden Lab's decision to strengthen the scripting environment internally (Mono). I guess I would've expected the strategy to be to encourage residents over time to host expensive processes externally and to simply pipe updates back and forth between in-world objects and servers. In other words, to leave objects doing only what only objects can do, if that makes sense.
[13:35]	Zero Linden:	Hold that thought, Martian....
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	On Mozilla - there are still some significant technical hurdles here
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	we've got it working for much content as a 2d window inside the viewer, as you know
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	and you've seen (maybe) our demonstration of browsing on a flexible 3D surface with OpenGL
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	BUT,
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	The Mozilla codebase has been difficult to efficently integrate - it wasn't designed for this kind of rendering situation
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	so getting it on a prim is still a ways off
[13:37]	Karen Linden waves back...albeit belatedly!
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	another challenge is that we haven't been able (nor has anyone) been able to get Flash to work rendered in an OpenGL environment
[13:38]	Tree Kyomoon:	do you lack support from ADOBE?
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	Finally, on Mozilla, there are many different ways people might want to use HTML on a prim:
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	Is it a way to render text and images and layout statically on a prim surface?
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	Is it a shared browser?
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	Is it a UI subsystem for LSL scripts?
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	Is it a non-shared browser?
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	Does it look at content from the web, or content from in-world (HTML on a notecard or dynamically generated)?
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	Here's a request
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	PLEASE: write up a scenario of how you think of using HTML on a prim on a notecard and drop it on me
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	OKAY
[13:40]	Kibble Ahn:	I found an error in the source that is easy to fix. Since I'm not a payment member I cannot contribute patches. But it is easy to fix.
[13:40]	Kibble Ahn:	Can I just tell you about it?
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	We do want to encourage people to off load more computationally intensive processes to off-world servers
[13:40]	Heather Goodliffe:	zero, user quotas would do that
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	Kibble - I don't konw the procedures
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	surely you can put it on the Wiki?
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	Again, heather - user quotas aren't so simple - we can't compute the sum total across the grid
[13:41]	Kibble Ahn:	Aren't you the open-source guy? Or is that a different lInden?
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	and no quota in any region could be low enough to matter -
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	that is, any level we set that is functional, would be too high if 200 Avatars took advantage of it
[13:42]	Huns Valen:	some things need to run fast that cannot be effectively offloaded to remote data centers, such as vehicle physics simulations. we really need Mono to do that better.
[13:42]	Vitis Obviate:	there is nothing wrong with implementing basic html first? After all the web only had very simple html to start with and it was still useful
[13:42]	Thermoriax Golding:	Questions about Prims and Prim Rendering...?
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	Which isn't to say that we don't want quotas, just that they are tricky
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	Kibble - no, that is Rob LInden
[13:42]	Kibble Ahn:	Ah... okay. Sorry.
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	His plot is just down the way and he has office hours on Mon. Wed. and Fri.
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	No probl.
[13:43]	Kibble Ahn:	Are office hours of the different Lindens posted somewhere?
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	Huns - exactly - and even simple stuff is just too much of a drain with the current LSL VM
[13:43]	Karen Linden:	Kibble: I think so
[13:43]	Karen Linden:	on the event calendar?
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	Thermoriax - sure, but I'm not a big 3D rendering guy...
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	but, shoot
[13:43]	Zha Ewry:	Very minor logistics question, will you be posting a chat log, anyehere, for the whole session today?
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	Kibble - he's not on the claendar yet - but ther eis a sign on his cubicle (yes - his build is a cubicle! )
[13:44]	Karen Linden:	ah, yeah
[13:44]	Tree Kyomoon gave you TO ZERO from Tree Kyomoon.
[13:44]	Karen Linden:	that's too bad kibble. I see Jeska's but not any others...
[13:44]	Thermoriax Golding:	Well... there are all kinds of rumors and half- legends, and such... about how the client and server handle Prims and their related traffic...
[13:44]	Karen Linden:	Zero...ahem ;-)
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	Zha - yes, that sounds great
[13:44]	RJ Source:	Cubicle? Thats a little disturbing!
[13:45]	Zha Ewry:	If you'd blog a pointer, that'd be wodnerful. thx
[13:45]	Vitis Obviate:	Any plans to implment xml-rpc outbound to help with the offloading?
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	Rj - it is
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	goone, Thermoriax
[13:45]	Thermoriax Golding notices how well this Sim is handling this many AV's... ...
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	Zha - I'll probably just amend the blog post with teh ranscript
[13:45]	Tree Kyomoon:	hmmmm
[13:45]	Thermoriax Golding:	Well... as I see it as a games programmer...
[13:46]	Thermoriax Golding:	You have a DB at the Server end, that holds a Data Record that describes the paramters of a Prim...
[13:46]	Zha Ewry:	k
[13:46]	Thermoriax Golding:	That is piped to all those in the sim area that will see it...
[13:46]	Fremont Cunningham:	only 31 avs in the sim and 1500 scripts. Light load.
[13:47]	Thermoriax Golding:	Now... one rumor I wish to find out one way or another, is about the practice of torturing a prim...
[13:47]	Karen Linden:	bye all!
[13:47]	Zero Linden:	Roughly - there is no traditional DB for the prim storage - they are stored in memory while the simulator is running
[13:47]	Khamon Fate waves
[13:47]	Thermoriax Golding:	Or... setting values on properties that are not supposed to be on certain prim types...
[13:47]	Zero Linden:	and we don't send them all to the viewer - there is an "interest list" calculation so we only need to send what is required
[13:48]	RJ Source:	Torturng, etc, sounds dangerous - and possibly unsupported in the future.
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	I'm not sure that is what people mean by "torturing" a prim
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	but, in any case, our format for sending prim information down is very very compact
[13:48]	Thermoriax Golding:	I can understand if haivng the values be unexpected ranges can cause problems with Havok... or with the Client...
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	and doesn't correlate to how complicated it might be to render
[13:49]	Zha Ewry:	Cycling through the various underlying forms to get prims set with odd paramaters which wouldn't show in the normal tool
[13:49]	Thermoriax Golding:	THis gold halo over my head is a Tortured Prim...
[13:49]	Khamon Fate:	zero will we ever be able to see for miles by rendering small approximations of larger prims without having to calc the entire view?
[13:49]	Thermoriax Golding:	Not as tortured as some sculptors use... but enough of one...
[13:49]	Khamon Fate:	or are we always gonna just stop rendering at some close distance?
[13:50]	Thermoriax Golding:	The idea is to get more of a range out of the same data stream and server load...
[13:50]	Khamon Fate:	and thank you for posting regular office hours, this is going to be nice
[13:50]	Thermoriax Golding:	Many believe that Tortured prims somehow increase load on SL...
[13:50]	Thermoriax Golding:	As many believe particles do...
[13:50]	Zha Ewry:	(How? the rendering is all client side, isn't it?)
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	well - both those things really only put load on the viewer
[13:51]	Thermoriax Golding:	/Exactly/ Zha... that is what I can't see...
[13:51]	Zero Linden:	unless we are talking about things like mega-prims
[13:51]	Khamon Fate claps for mega-prims
[13:51]	Thermoriax Golding:	I can understand the problem with Havoc and Megaprims...
[13:51]	Nobody Fugazi's ears perk up
[13:51]	Zero Linden:	those cause problems sim side as they increase the amount of work the sim has to do -
[13:51]	Dimitrio Lewis:	what is the policy on mega prims btw?
[13:52]	Thermoriax Golding:	Would it improve things, to separate Phys Prims from regular prims...?
[13:52]	Zero Linden:	Thermoriax - we already do
[13:52]	Thermoriax Golding:	Hmm...
[13:52]	Zero Linden:	but even non-physics, phantom mega prims are a problem - for example, they will show up on EVERYONE's interest list
[13:52]	Zero Linden:	and will have to be communicated to all neighboring sims
[13:53]	Fremont Cunningham:	Thats interesting - how are phys. prims 'separated' from non-phys prims?
[13:53]	Tree Kyomoon:	so they wouldnt matter so much on an island
[13:53]	Tree Kyomoon:	but on the mainland
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	so- you can see that the 10m size limit is really a way of enforcing a limit on the amount of work per prim
[13:53]	Thermoriax Golding:	Ok... Megaprims are upscale enough they have to be viewable from a /distance/ like sim- to- sim...
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	the are separated in how they are managed with respect to havok - on the viewer it makes no difference
[13:54]	Thermoriax Golding:	Prims are primarily a method of conveying a vertex pattern to the renderer...
[13:54]	Tabitha Miranda:	so should people be using mega prims or not..i see several used as screens to block ugly views
[13:54]	Tabitha Miranda:	some say its ok others say no
[13:55]	Fremont Cunningham:	Interesting because of the old old prim drifting and spinning problem.
[13:55]	Thermoriax Golding:	If we are willing to accept a negative- space prim as taking a primcount slot...
[13:55]	Thermoriax Golding:	Is there a reason we cannot use them to help shape Linksets...?
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	Ah - well, abstractly, no -
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	but it will require the work to add that to all the various geometry chains - both rendering, and simulation
[13:56]	Thermoriax Golding:	Perhaps a surface- limit could be proposed...?
[13:57]	Huns Valen:	Andrew Linden commented in 2003 that arbitrary concave stuff would be hard to set up in Havok
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	There are a lot of different models that could be considered....
[13:57]	Thermoriax Golding:	Might not add to the server end, but it will add work to the Client end, I can see...
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	...but there are limits to finding things that will work with all the generality that SL offers
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	I don't think we'd want to offer prim types that could only be non-physical and phantom, for example
[13:58]	Jarod Godel:	Isn't that how floppy prims work?
[13:58]	Khamon Fate:	yes floppies are autophantom nonphysical
[13:58]	Thermoriax Golding:	Flexis are prolly based along a flexible 'spine' that is handled through Havoc first, then the Prim is rendered on it...
[13:59]	Zero Linden:	they are client side, and you can have almost anythin floppy - and I know there are desingers willing to give their left-attachment for the rest of the shapes to be flexi
[13:59]	Khamon Fate:	how 'bout prims that once locked can only be taken, not unlocked? hmm
[13:59]	Huns Valen:	flexible prims don't involve havok
[13:59]	Thermoriax Golding:	I would be content with being able to pin another Prim to a place on a Flexi...
[13:59]	Fremont Cunningham:	non-phys &phantom prims are used for position markers. But you rarely care about its shape or size. A small cube will do
[13:59]	Zero Linden:	Khamon- you raise the issue of the permissions -
[13:59]	Thermoriax Golding:	Or describe a path, and a shape to apply on a path...
[14:00]	Thermoriax Golding:	Ahh... dreams of spline solids...
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	there are quite a number of possible changes to the permissions system
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	but
[14:00]	Khamon Fate:	i'm more thinking lack of updates
[14:00]	Khamon Fate:	but
[14:00]	Khamon Fate:	ha ha ha
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	I think we are going to let that sit for a more comprehensive review
[14:01]	Khamon Fate:	my original client-oriented rendering question was whether or not we'll ever be able see long distances without having to download, calc and render every tiny little prim?
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	whew - well, it is 2pm - I can go for another 1/2 hour if folks like
[14:02]	Nobody Fugazi:	sure :-D
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	Khamon - I don't know
[14:02]	Tree Kyomoon:	please
[14:02]	Zha Ewry:	Yes :-)
[14:02]	Nobody Fugazi:	ok... well, with attachments when crossing sim borders, is it that sometimes pointers don't pass correctly - thus flexihair ends up in the crotch? :-D
[14:02]	Redd Nyle:	We would like, I think I can say for all of us
[14:02]	Dnali Anabuki:	plse
[14:02]	Khamon Fate:	for instance, it'd be nice to set my client to see clearly for 256m then only larger prims up to 1024
[14:02]	Khamon Fate:	or something
[14:02]	Huns Valen:	ok, are we going to see any motion on fixing stuttery physical objects soon?
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	It would more difficult in SL - as that is typically done with precomputation
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	but that doesn't seem like it is going to work well for SL
[14:03]	Jarod Godel:	Couldn't the client do the precomputation?
[14:03]	Jarod Godel:	Like floppies. Just dump everything to the client, and render based on his local settings?
[14:03]	Jarod Godel:	We already do that with particles.
[14:03]	BinaryMe Remblai:	I hope I don't start a riot, but how can huge prims adversly affect my region?
[14:03]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	but Jarod - then you'd have to send all the geometry
[14:04]	Khamon Fate:	wull particles aren't visible across borders in first look anymore
[14:04]	Jarod Godel:	That doesn't get sent already?
[14:04]	Jarod Godel:	Then how does the client know what to draw?
[14:04]	Khamon Fate:	jarod we only download up to our draw distance
[14:04]	Khamon Fate:	so we see that far then we see a blank horizon
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	Nobody - yes, the attachment move on region cross is a plague! We know about it... don't have a fix for it yet
[14:05]	Jarod Godel:	But downloading and rendering are two seperate processes, Khamon.
[14:05]	Tree Kyomoon:	New question....you guys must have an offline client for scripting....is that possible for us to get our hands on?
[14:05]	Zero Linden:	BinaryMe - I discussed that earlier
[14:05]	Jarod Godel:	Tree, Khamon has a copy of one
[14:05]	Zero Linden:	Tree - you will be surprized to learn that we do not
[14:05]	Khamon Fate:	i'm wondering if we can download just the groundmesh and very large prims beyond that and see for some actual distance
[14:05]	Zero Linden:	We all script in world
[14:05]	Nobody Fugazi:	cool, thanks Zero. Its why I stopped using human form. Hair in the crotch is hard to explain when showing up at events. :-D
[14:06]	Soft Noel:	What's the advantage of scripting offline?
[14:06]	Zero Linden:	Actually
[14:06]	Khamon Fate:	the problem with scripting inworld is the thing HAS to compile or it can't be saved
[14:06]	Thermoriax Golding:	Yes... and you need to teach the LSL engine about commutative math...
[14:06]	Zha Ewry:	Related question, to the prim on crossing question. What's exactly going on with a re-bake? and why does it seem to be so random in whether it takes or not.
[14:06]	Khamon Fate:	that's kinda silly
[14:06]	Tree Kyomoon:	I ran a say script today by accident that went into an infinte loop conversation...had I been on the mainland....
[14:06]	Zero Linden:	personally, I use SubEthaEdit, with the LSL plug-in (which I wrote, but it is on their site),
[14:06]	Zero Linden:	to edit scripts
[14:06]	Zero Linden:	and copy/paste into SL
[14:06]	Khamon Fate:	i script using an offline colour coded editor and upload to debug
[14:06]	BinaryMe Remblai:	About what I figured. Going to have a transcript of the answer?
[14:07]	Zero Linden:	Yes, I'll post transcripts to the blog post
[14:07]	Tree Kyomoon:	Im looking more for a practice runtime so I dont blow up SL with some crazy script
[14:07]	Khamon Fate claps for transcripts
[14:07]	Heather Goodliffe:	hey Zero, btw, do you know anythign about the vehicle stutter movement issue?
[14:08]	Zero Linden:	Heather, alas, I don't
[14:08]	Nobody Fugazi:	hmm.... a LSL simulator would be useful for a few different reasons, but overall if it has to work in a concurrent environment, the simulator would have to allow for concurrent scripts as well.
[14:08]	Heather Goodliffe:	do you konw who I can talk to abou tthat?
[14:08]	Redd Nyle gave you Redd Nyle: A use for http on prims.
[14:08]	Tree Kyomoon:	not necessarily...there is a lot you can do with script that is just gruntwork
[14:08]	Zero Linden:	Heather - do you mean on region crossing?
[14:09]	Huns Valen:	I bet she doesn't!
[14:09]	Thermoriax Golding:	Could we have more 'revolve' or 'extrude' prims...? Prims that are made from revolved 2D shapes... or ones dragged in the 3rd dimension...
[14:09]	Heather Goodliffe:	Zero, no, when you try to move a vehicle in a straight path it stutters
[14:09]	Heather Goodliffe:	within the sim
[14:09]	Heather Goodliffe:	stutters really badly
[14:09]	Zero Linden:	I'd IM Andrew Linden about that
[14:09]	Heather Goodliffe:	it's like lag, but not
[14:09]	Khamon Fate:	heather are you using the first look client or the regular one?
[14:09]	Huns Valen:	low velocity with no angular momentum = moving in huge discreet steps rather than smoothly
[14:09]	Heather Goodliffe:	the server just isn't sending updates
[14:09]	BinaryMe Remblai:	is there a way to move something underground?
[14:10]	Zero Linden:	BinaryMe - no
[14:10]	Zero Linden:	not really
[14:10]	Huns Valen:	that problem is not specific to first look
[14:10]	Heather Goodliffe:	Khamon, the regular one
[14:10]	Khamon Fate claps for terrain prims
[14:10]	BinaryMe Remblai:	oh ok
[14:10]	Zero Linden:	or rather, not intentionally
[14:10]	Khamon Fate claps for mesh prims
[14:10]	Heather Goodliffe:	it's been happening since the last big update
[14:10]	Redd Nyle:	Has LL been working in depth with any companies to allow custom solutions for large corporate projects or do all projects have to go through third parties?
[14:10]	Tree Kyomoon:	more mesh prims :)
[14:10]	Khamon Fate claps for caves
[14:10]	BinaryMe Remblai:	hi
[14:10]	Zero Linden:	I can see a future with more prim types - including meshes and ground types
[14:10]	Zero Linden:	BUT
[14:10]	Rex Cronon:	actually there is a way to move objects underground
[14:10]	Huns Valen:	redd I am pretty sure they just say "electricsheepcompany.com thx bye" when a company asks them abou tthat
[14:11]	Zero Linden:	I don't think much work is going to go on there until we get the scaling issues out of the way
[14:11]	Jarod Godel:	Your chairs are insane.
[14:11]	Tree Kyomoon:	what would be really handy is FONT prims
[14:11]	Khamon Fate:	SIT DOWN JAROD
[14:11]	Thermoriax Golding:	Prims move Ok underground, as long as the Havoc engine is not invoked, as it detects out of bounds, and flushes the prims...
[14:11]	Khamon Fate:	any eta on those scaling issues?
[14:11]	Zero Linden:	Redd- LL doesn't do any solutions for 3rd parties - we refer them ALL to the developer listings
[14:12]	Redd Nyle:	I see
[14:12]	Redd Nyle:	That's rule seems to be iron clad, then
[14:12]	Zero Linden:	Really - we just don't have the bandwidth for that sort of thing - and really, the developers do a much better job of that sort of thing than we could!
[14:12]	Zero Linden:	(IMHO!)
[14:12]	Khamon Fate:	zero can you itemize the scaling issues for us?
[14:12]	Rex Cronon:	i would really like to be able to create/edit notecards using scripts
[14:12]	Jarod Godel:	hahaha
[14:12]	Redd Nyle:	hehe
[14:12]	Khamon Fate:	bandwidth == manpower
[14:12]	Fremont Cunningham:	Heather - the vehicle straight line stutter was introduced the the last update, it was identified and bug reported several times. It was ignored and moved to main grid.
[14:12]	Jarod Godel:	sorry. just calculating the odds of that ever happening.
[14:12]	Tree Kyomoon:	and have Fonts in notecards
[14:13]	Heather Goodliffe:	Fremont, thanks
[14:13]	Zero Linden:	Rex- will never happen - really - use llHTTPRequest and store the data on your own server
[14:13]	Heather Goodliffe:	I couldn't seem to get a Linden to acknoledge the problem
[14:13]	Khamon Fate:	have script writing to notecards ~ have script writing to mysql ~ dream dream dreeeeeeam
[14:13]	Heather Goodliffe:	good to know they supposedly know abou tit
[14:13]	Huns Valen:	Heather, look for "jerky" on jira
[14:13]	Jarod Godel:	http is the new filehandle. rss is the new |
[14:13]	Rex Cronon:	than allow to read more than 256 chars per line
[14:13]	Huns Valen:	I'll get the link maybe...
[14:14]	Khamon Fate:	uhuh jarod curlhead
[14:14]	Huns Valen:	yeah here it is https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-86
[14:14]	Zero Linden:	khmon - excellent question - re scaling
[14:14]	Khamon Fate:	zero can you itemize the scaling issues for us?
[14:14]	Zero Linden:	Let's see: there are
[14:14]	Zha Ewry:	Zero if the answeris http request, can we get beyond 2048 bytes? (and Ideally non text)
[14:14]	BinaryMe Remblai:	So - it only takes a sec to see, zero that you are sort of delivered as meat for those who do have questions. Thanks. But not so tasty.
[14:15]	BinaryMe Remblai:	Have fun guys.
[14:15]	Redd Nyle:	Hey! BeKind.
[14:15]	Zero Linden:	1) Database access - we have lots of things in a central database, - this worked well when small, but needs to be broken up
[14:15]	Vitis Obviate:	and xml-rpc outbound?
[14:15]	Jarod Godel:	But baby Jesus needs his central asset server.
[14:15]	BinaryMe Remblai:	Not in the mood- just had a bad experience with "help".
[14:16]	Khamon Fate:	shush jardon
[14:16]	Rex Cronon:	oh, and i would also like to be able to read textAbove and particles attributes
[14:16]	Zero Linden:	2) Managing a growing network of machines in multiple data centers
[14:17]	Zero Linden:	3) Re architecting the system a bit to be able to scale linearly (discussed extensively earlier on)
[14:17]	Khamon Fate:	are y'all able to pay for a severly limited number of hops between colos?
[14:17]	Khamon Fate:	or is that prohibitivly expensive?
[14:17]	Huns Valen:	khamon that is a great question
[14:17]	Zero Linden:	4) Handling a more hetrogenous grid - so that we can do all operations in stages
[14:18]	Zero Linden:	5) Removing dependencies between sub-systems so things can go down without pulling everything with them
[14:18]	Zero Linden:	That was a really off-the-top-of-my-head list
[14:18]	Zero Linden:	not bullet points off a slide
[14:18]	Jarod Godel:	How many sub-systems are there, if I may ask?
[14:18]	Zero Linden:	so, take it for htat
[14:19]	Jarod Godel:	Roughly.
[14:19]	Thermoriax Golding:	Messaging - Is there a way we can have a UUID we can send a message to, with a preamble of UUID from, and UUID to, and the Message Body... so anyone/ anything can send to anyone/ anything...?
[14:19]	Khamon Fate:	thanks, that helps me envision the BBLOTD a bit better considering the recent offloading of services to the new messaging system
[14:19]	Huns Valen:	well yeah we can email objects by uuid
[14:19]	Zero Linden:	Khamon - we have beefy links between our two colos - but the VPN in there is a limit.... we need to rearchitect things so that we can make use of the public internet for those transfers
[14:20]	Zero Linden:	How many sub-systems? Well, right now about a dozen - but with
[14:20]	Khamon Fate:	not a UUID anymore Therm, messages are not assets anymore
[14:20]	Jarod Godel:	Will #2 and #5 help with that?
[14:20]	Zero Linden:	the need to break things into separately scalable parts, there will be three to four times that
[14:20]	Khamon Fate:	rather message sessions are not assets anymore
[14:20]	Khamon Fate:	khamon's head begins to tingle
[14:21]	Zero Linden:	Uhm- well here, look at it this way
[14:21]	Zero Linden:	if we could identify a thing by a UUID -
[14:21]	Jarod Godel:	I am glad to hear you guys are modularizing.
[14:21]	Zero Linden:	then there would be a central relationship that knows how to find an object, anwhere in the grid, by UUID
[14:21]	Zero Linden:	that doesn't scale so well!
[14:22]	Khamon Fate:	oh granted if you're going to allow private hosting to connect the TGAHTCG, it'll have to use public pipes
[14:22]	Zero Linden:	So we need to look at ways to build delgation and heirachy into the infrastructure -
[14:22]	Khamon Fate:	can i say pipes?
[14:22]	Zero Linden:	it is the only way to scale and have redudency
[14:22]	Willow Ranger:	why not give it an ipv6 address instead of an UUID and route to it...
[14:22]	Jarod Godel:	I thought people were the only trackable UUID's, SQUIDS then handled per-sim UUID locations. That's why we can't IM objects.
[14:22]	Zero Linden:	\Willow -
[14:22]	BinaryMe Remblai:	was the question covered already: Do the LSL dataserver calls for member status(on/off Line) follow the new restrictions?
[14:23]	Zero Linden:	remember that giving everything an IPv6 IP would still require that we route to it - if the IPs are allocated based on location, then either things can't move, or objects change names
[14:23]	Zero Linden:	this is why there is DNS
[14:24]	Jarod Godel:	You guys need to hire some Smalltalk hackers. Make everything a listening object.
[14:24]	Zero Linden:	on the grid objects move - not just because the object moves in SL space, but because we sometimes have to run the simulation on a different computer
[14:24]	Thermoriax Golding huffles... Atomic Fireball jawbreakers... Ahh...
[14:25]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - I AM a Smalltalk hacker - I worked on Apple Smalltalk for Macintosh
[14:25]	Redd Nyle:	Oh! P@wned!
[14:25]	Jarod Godel:	Couldn't you use inhertience to solve the location problem?
[14:25]	Grey Nolder:	/ao on
[14:25]	Khamon Fate:	jarod are you saying to assign each object a listening port on the server? like a forked process?
[14:25]	Jarod Godel:	Like Java objects
[14:25]	Khamon Fate:	assigned it's own ipv6 designation?
[14:26]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - no, you need delegation, like DNS
[14:26]	BinaryMe Remblai:	Do you have a "what questions can be asked" guide?
[14:26]	Jarod Godel:	ala sub-domains?
[14:26]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - java objects don't live on a mesh of 5,000 CPUs... usually...
[14:26]	Grey Nolder:	/ao off
[14:26]	Zero Linden:	Binary Me - I don't
[14:26]	Zero Linden:	but this is a "techy-geeky-nerdo" office hour
[14:26]	Zha Ewry:	And.. if you do delegation, you end up having to decide how to not end up with a trail of obejcts behind, as your objects move, and when you can safely reap them
[14:27]	flying ball whispers: I am ALIVE!
[14:27]	Zero Linden:	which - by the way all, is almost at a close
[14:27]	Jarod Godel:	I didn't mean the actual objects, just the naming scheme. Sub-domains works just as well.
[14:27]	Khamon Fate:	but aren't we trying to move away for object having to rely on a mesh of 5kCPUs and toward a model where prims rely on local asset management?
[14:27]	Zero Linden:	Zha - I meant delegation of authority to know where something is
[14:27]	Zero Linden:	rather than delgation as in the chain of forwarders sense
[14:27]	Tree Kyomoon:	thanks for taking the time Zero, really appreciated
[14:27]	Zha Ewry:	Errm.
[14:27]	Zha Ewry:	Ok.
[14:27]	Thermoriax Golding:	Well... most of the internet isn't planned to support a growing, evolving virtual world, either...
[14:27]	Zero Linden:	pitty that Computer Science is getting big enough now that we have over lap in use of terms!
[14:27]	Khamon Fate:	this is why virtual worlds need our own root servers
[14:27]	Zha Ewry:	Even there, you'll still have delegations chasing, but less so
[14:27]	Thermoriax Golding:	Things have to adapt, to grow...
[14:28]	Jarod Godel:	Nah. Everything's just a database when you get down to it.
[14:28]	Zero Linden:	Zha - yes -
[14:28]	Zero Linden:	it seems a messy problem no matter how we solve it, really
[14:28]	Zha Ewry:	Yes, thanks Zero, and we'll be back with more questinos, once we've read the transcript (regular office hours :-)
[14:28]	Everett Mills:	For large spectator events, would it be possible to have a read-only (view-only) view that could be scalably broadcast?
[14:28]	Zero Linden:	thank you all for coming
[14:28]	Thermoriax Golding:	The RL universe seems to be a Holographic DB in many ways...
[14:28]	BinaryMe Remblai:	o god - why did I think you would have a clue?
[14:28]	Jarod Godel:	I think the object+dns idea is rather elegant.
[14:29]	Vitis Obviate:	ty Zero -- useful and interesting
[14:29]	BinaryMe Remblai:	Back to lovely Blanda.
[14:29]	Khamon Fate:	thank you zero, see you next timea
[14:29]	Dimitrio Lewis:	Thank you, Zero! It's been educational.
[14:29]	Soft Noel:	ty Zero :)
[14:29]	Nobody Fugazi:	thanks Zero... quick thought... UUID...land... communication.
[14:29]	Nobody Fugazi:	have fun ;-D
[14:29]	Fremont Cunningham:	Everett - I did that in the early days of TH meets - few watched the relay. Was not worth the effort.
[14:30]	Redd Nyle:	Zero, thanks for taking the time to talk with the community. I hope other Lindens follow your lead.
[14:30]	Fremont Cunningham:	Thanks Muchly Zero... I look forward to more enlightenment sessions :)
[14:30]	Zero Linden:	Quick - someone grab an island named "UUID Land"...
[14:31]	Thermoriax Golding:	I just want a simple protocol to message information from script/ prim/ sim boundaries...
[14:31]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, do you use Squeak?
[14:32]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - Squeak is a distant grandchild of the Smalltalk I worked on at Apple - some of my code is still in there!
[14:32]	Jarod Godel:	Ah, well, my compliments to your work.