User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jul 05

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[7:31]	Drew Dwi:	real trick will be trying to keep it from breaking every time LL releases an update
[7:31]	Tinsel Silvera:	hello zero
[7:31]	Zero Linden:	hello all!
[7:31]	Feynt Mistral:	Java3d uses scene graphing, so it's easy to build an environment.
[7:31]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning Zero.
[7:31]	Tinsel Silvera:	how are you today?
[7:31]	Drew Dwi:	morning
[7:31]	Zero Linden:	Sorry about Tuesday - I was home in bed - sick.
[7:31]	Drew Dwi:	sounds icky
[7:31]	Feynt Mistral:	That's not good.
[7:31]	Tinsel Silvera:	hope you are better now
[7:32]	Feynt Mistral:	We've got some questions to put you back though. >3
[7:32]	Zero Linden:	It was - first my two kids were sick last weekend - then I got to spend Tuesday and my holiday sick
[7:32]	Zero Linden:	feh!
[7:32]	Tinsel Silvera:	it goes around once it starts
[7:32]	Drew Dwi nods
[7:32]	Tinsel Silvera:	happy 4th everyone
[7:32]	Feynt Mistral:	Canadian. I celebrated my holiday on the weekend. >)
[7:32]	Tinsel Silvera:	ah
[7:33]	Zero Linden:	Happy independence day.... if you're US --- and Happy "oops, lost the colonies" Day if you're British
[7:33]	Tinsel Silvera:	i prefer when ours is on the weekend
[7:33]	Feynt Mistral:	This is my off week, but everyone got Monday on vacation.
[7:33]	Tinsel Silvera:	lol
[7:33]	Feynt Mistral:	>D
[7:33]	Tinsel Silvera:	so true zero
[7:33]	Tinsel Silvera:	their loss is our gain
[7:33]	Feynt Mistral:	Hey, Canada was a collection of French colonies too. ^.^
[7:33]	Feynt Mistral:	Regardless, on with the meeting I guess.
[7:34]	Tinsel Silvera:	so how are things with everyone
[7:34]	Drew Dwi:	so this is my first time here which begs the question, what do you do at LL exactly? :P
[7:34]	Zero Linden:	Indeed - though I usually wait a few mor minutes for folks to show up
[7:34]	Tinsel Silvera:	my first as well
[7:34]	Zero Linden:	OH -
[7:34]	Zero Linden:	that's a good place to start
[7:34]	Feynt Mistral nods
[7:34]	Tinsel Silvera:	i see someone else dropped in
[7:34]	Zero Linden:	Well....... I'm "Director of Studio Icehouse"
[7:34]	Drew Dwi:	and you guys should really put that on the office hours blogs, cause otherwise its more of a... go and find out type deal
[7:34]	otakup0pe Neumann:	literally.
[7:34]	Tinsel Silvera:	nice entrance
[7:34]	Drew Dwi:	ah and that brings another q
[7:34]	Zero Linden:	I think I did, Drew
[7:35]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Hello everyone.
[7:35]	Feynt Mistral:	He did.
[7:35]	Tinsel Silvera:	hello ota
[7:35]	Zero Linden:	Or rather it is on my wiki page
[7:35]	Drew Dwi:	is there a list of 'studio's' and what they do?
[7:35]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning otaku.
[7:35]	Drew Dwi:	or who leads them would be cool too
[7:35]	Zero Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden
[7:35]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning Zha.
[7:35]	otakup0pe Neumann:	All I hear is rumors.
[7:35]	Drew Dwi:	thanks
[7:35]	Zero Linden:	But, none the less - I'll explain
[7:35]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Drew that would be awesome to see, I agree.
[7:35]	Zero Linden:	I lead an engineering studio here --- which is sort of like a manager of a software group or area in other companies
[7:36]	Tinsel Silvera:	hello zha
[7:36]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Ack. I appear to be severely lagged.
[7:36]	Hazelee Haller:	hello zha
[7:36]	Zero Linden:	It is different in that a) It's my responibiity to weave together a set of projects over several quarters and lead them
[7:37]	Zero Linden:	and b) The engineers in the studio choose to join the studio and when to leave - so the membership is always changing
[7:37]	Zero Linden:	So think "sofwtare division" but by agreement, not by charter
[7:38]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Heh.
[7:38]	Feynt Mistral nods
[7:38]	otakup0pe Neumann:	So after the mesage liberation goes live, what is icehouse working on, het grid ?
[7:38]	Zero Linden:	Yes - so, current plan is for MsgLib to release on the 11th
[7:38]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Also, what do you know about texture baking Zero ;)
[7:39]	Zero Linden:	We found the two bugs that were borking our ability to ship last week.
[7:39]	Drew Dwi:	any paticular section? like I know a group does the windlight I think its called?
[7:39]	Feynt Mistral:	Ah
[7:39]	otakup0pe Neumann:	=O
[7:39]	Zero Linden:	Both of them really annoying stupid merge problems --- like case of a URL in one of them
[7:39]	Feynt Mistral:	Heh
[7:39]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Heh.
[7:39]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Fun times with software development.
[7:39]	Zero Linden:	Grrrrr..... one downside of REST, like dynamic languages, is that the bindings are all done at run time
[7:39]	Zero Linden:	Unlike most dynamic langauges, the debugging techniques are in the dark ages
[7:40]	Drew Dwi:	hmhm
[7:40]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Hrm.
[7:40]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Yeah. My company has a REST based interface to libsecondlife.
[7:40]	Zha Ewry:	Well, not Rest, so much... as... the language/tools. Rest doesn't tell you how to build your stuff ;-)
[7:40]	Drew Dwi:	do you have a topic per say or can I poke with random questions? :P
[7:40]	otakup0pe Neumann:	It makes me love Wireshark all the more.
[7:40]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Wireshark and painful amounts of debuging output. Heh.
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	sorry - that plane noise was driving me nuts
[7:40]	otakup0pe Neumann:	On the up side - web services.
[7:41]	Hazelee Haller:	:)
[7:41]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Plane noise ?
[7:41]	Feynt Mistral:	>)
[7:41]	Tinsel Silvera:	i was wondering if that was just me
[7:41]	Feynt Mistral:	There was a plane parked outside.
[7:41]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I think sounds are broken in 1.17.2 :s
[7:41]	Tinsel Silvera:	ah
[7:41]	Tinsel Silvera:	who flew in?
[7:41]	Feynt Mistral:	I believe it was Mario1 Messmer.
[7:41]	Zero Linden:	Yes, Zha, but theory aside, I was talking about the state of the art practical aspects of using REST
[7:41]	Zha Ewry:	Reluctantly granted
[7:42]	Zha Ewry:	Just.. don't want REST called out for what's essentially, an industry wide failure in tooling
[7:42]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Heh.
[7:43]	Feynt Mistral:	Silly industrial tools.
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	Donovan Linden has been working on the side on a really cool debugger for our python REST server - that captures the HTTP transactions and python stack traces and presents them all as a well formatted web page
[7:43]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Interesting.... My first exposure to REST has been via LL, and then we implemented our own tool with it. It's all be home brewed stuff.
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	it works REALLY well for some of our REST based unit tests....
[7:43]	Feynt Mistral:	Mmm, python.
[7:43]	otakup0pe Neumann:	What sort of tools are out there ?
[7:43]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Heh. Donovan is cool.
[7:43]	Drew Dwi:	we talked about this earlier but has there been any consideration for a "lite" viewer, one without the new windlight or voice for when thoes hit the main viewer? To help thoes with less powerfull comp's?
[7:43]	Drew Dwi:	or would that be only for opensource guys to build
[7:44]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Drew there is sleek but that's probably too lite ;)
[7:44]	Drew Dwi:	and its broke I believe
[7:44]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Yeah.
[7:44]	Zero Linden:	Okay - wait - *** Standard Disclosure: I'm Gonna Write You All Up...... In The Wiki! ***
[7:44]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Another open source developer who is exicted by message liberation
[7:44]	Zero Linden:	There - done
[7:44]	Tinsel Silvera:	{:o)
[7:44]	Hazelee Haller:	:)
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	Now - no topic for today, but as usual, I'll try to steer things into discussions rather than just sit here and answer point questions
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	A light viewer is a good topic
[7:45]	otakup0pe Neumann:	It would be a fun project no doubt.
[7:45]	Tinsel Silvera:	yes that is a good topic
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	We don't have any plans right now for producing variants of the standard viewer
[7:45]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Seems like an open source kinda thing to me.
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	That is, standard viewer with just several things compiled out.
[7:45]	Feynt Mistral:	A PDA version would be hot. >3
[7:45]	Tinsel Silvera:	yes on the pda version
[7:45]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I'm considering it for a project my company has coming up in the fall.
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	These would make easy open source projects
[7:46]	Drew Dwi:	pda heh
[7:46]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Part opensim, part opensl client
[7:46]	Tinsel Silvera:	and what about the cell phone version?
[7:46]	Zero Linden:	But, I know that voice really really really doesn't add anything to your CPU usage if you turn it off
[7:46]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I really wish libsecondlife had 3d programmers :s
[7:46]	Tinsel Silvera:	so we will always be able to turn voice off?
[7:46]	Zero Linden:	And, adds no significant processing to sims if turned on.
[7:46]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Even if it's on Zero, how much overhead does it add ?
[7:46]	Zha Ewry:	Does it even load the voice process if you turn it on?
[7:46]	Drew Dwi:	yeah ^^ its a checkbox
[7:46]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Client side.
[7:46]	Zero Linden:	Tinsel - yes - absolutely
[7:46]	Tinsel Silvera:	cool
[7:47]	Zha Ewry:	(don't turn it on, sorry)
[7:47]	Tinsel Silvera:	lol
[7:47]	Zero Linden:	There are lots of ways to turn it off: You can turn it off in the client, and estates can turn it off, and parcel owners can turn it off
[7:47]	Feynt Mistral:	I hadn't noticed any significant hit with it on when I had 512 megs of RAM.
[7:47]	Tinsel Silvera:	good
[7:47]	Feynt Mistral:	Now I've got 2 gigs, so nothing gives me a significant hit. >3
[7:47]	Drew Dwi:	512 wow my client is using over that right now
[7:48]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Yeah, when it works it works great - far better quality than Skype.
[7:48]	otakup0pe Neumann:	The client (for me) I think always has issues connecting to the whatever the SIP url may be for P2P and group chats.
[7:48]	Zero Linden:	Now, I believe (but am less sure) that the gambit of Windlight was that they could produce MUCH better sky with not much impact on rendering time
[7:48]	Zero Linden:	I haven't run windlight, so don't know
[7:48]	Tinsel Silvera:	i liked what i have seen of windlight
[7:48]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Zero, it's very pretty.
[7:48]	Zha Ewry:	Framerates didn't change much
[7:48]	Feynt Mistral:	They do clouds and stars very well.
[7:48]	Feynt Mistral:	I agree, on my older RAM setup no frame rate hit.
[7:48]	Tinsel Silvera:	it was beautiful to be so simply put
[7:48]	Tinsel Silvera:	hello rex
[7:49]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning Wyn.
[7:49]	Feynt Mistral:	And Rex.
[7:49]	Rex Cronon:	hi tinsel
[7:49]	Zha Ewry:	Morning, Wyn, Rex
[7:49]	Rex Cronon:	hi everybody
[7:49]	Drew Dwi:	sims have been hurting since the last rolling restart through so was curious of overhead on voice but if its a seperate system then guess thats not it
[7:49]	Tinsel Silvera:	hello wyn
[7:49]	Tinsel Silvera:	why do you say "hurting"
[7:49]	Zero Linden:	No - voice is done on a completely separate set of servers
[7:50]	Zha Ewry:	Heh. That's a perenial hard topic. How do we quantify things like "hurting"
[7:50]	Drew Dwi:	i've noticed a big preformance reduction on script/agent time
[7:50]	Zero Linden:	The only impact on the sims is that they are the ones telling the voice system what parcel (and hence what channel) you are in
[7:50]	Feynt Mistral:	What I had noticed about the windlight engine is that the light source is very poorly represented when it's rendered "small" in the sky. It makes it difficult to do a moon at night.
[7:50]	Tinsel Silvera:	i have read a lot about performance drop in the blogs
[7:50]	Zero Linden:	(oviously we can't trust the viewer to tell the voice system that)
[7:50]	otakup0pe Neumann:	The positional information is sent directly from client -> voice server
[7:50]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Correct ?
[7:50]	Drew Dwi:	ie, total frame time is going over 22ms
[7:50]	Tinsel Silvera:	i know in pryeri where my office is the performance has been horrible
[7:50]	Drew Dwi:	yeah there's a jira open on it also
[7:50]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Heh.
[7:50]	Zero Linden:	Yes, the viewer tells the voice system the bulk of the information - but the sim validates some of it
[7:50]	Tinsel Silvera:	so we need to report indiviudal sims?
[7:50]	Zero Linden:	So you can't just claim to be in a region you're not - for example
[7:50]	Zha Ewry:	It would be nice.. if we had some ways of benchmarking the notion of "hurting"
[7:50]	Drew Dwi:	no, let me grab the link Tinsel
[7:51]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning Richard.
[7:51]	Zero Linden:	Zha - I suppose someone could take the information the viewer gets n contorl-opt-1 and turn those numbers into a metric
[7:51]	Richard Renneville:	morning
[7:51]	Drew Dwi:	actually not sure who to ask but not very clear on the concept of "Agent Time" the description in the help docs is a bit vauge
[7:51]	Zha Ewry:	For example.. Since the restart, I've noticed very slow rez-in times..
[7:51]	Tinsel Silvera:	hello richard
[7:51]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Zha bug me later if you want. I have a libsl bot that records and graphs sim stats.
[7:51]	Tinsel Silvera:	my rez in is now much slower as well
[7:51]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Hrm.
[7:51]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Although I know LL has that kinda stuff behind the scenes as well.
[7:52]	Richard Renneville:	I got something to bring to any Lindens attention
[7:52]	Zha Ewry:	And.. in particular, a lot of ruthed Aves.. and very long times to get texturfes fully loaded
[7:52]	Drew Dwi:	thats client side I believe?
[7:52]	b.places HUD shouts: Leffard Lassard: Welcome to the b.places HUD! wear it and enjoy user rated hotpots and a fully featured HUD
[7:52]	Zero Linden:	Richard - this is my office hour - where we discuss engineering topics in Second Life
[7:52]	Zha Ewry:	Doesn't show up, so much in any one stat, on the stats bar.. but the overall impression is that somethign changed for thr worse
[7:52]	Tinsel Silvera:	*knock on wood* i haven't been ruthed in a while
[7:53]	Zero Linden:	Drew - no, Ruth'd means that the asset information about the AV shape didn't show up
[7:53]	Hazelee Haller:	was ruthed yesterday
[7:53]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I know that from last wed-friday I saw great SL performance, then since Saturday it's gone down the tubes again.
[7:53]	Zero Linden:	there are numerous ways that can happen, so being Ruth'd is alas a common symptom of about five different problems
[7:53]	Drew Dwi:	well didn't show up as in, didn't make it to the viewer? backbone then yea?
[7:53]	Tinsel Silvera:	i usually don't pay attention on the weekends because that is expected
[7:53]	Drew Dwi:	ah
[7:53]	Richard Renneville:	it doesnt matter which Linden, however I have noticed that the game seems to crash more at places where I camp to make money, or the sim will "go down"
[7:53]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I'd blame my ISP but it happens at every ISP in town.
[7:53]	Rex Cronon:	sl lost my entire shape/closte last week
[7:53]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Zero - that many ? what are they ? ;)
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	But - back to the issue of a light viewer for a second
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	(so table the Ruth discussion - we'll get back to it)
[7:54]	Hazelee Haller:	hello Wyn
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	What woudl people like to see in a light viewer?
[7:54]	Rex Cronon:	no sound
[7:54]	Tinsel Silvera:	no leaks
[7:55]	Feynt Mistral:	>D
[7:55]	Wyn Galbraith:	Good morning, sorry I'm late, had some problems staying logged in :)
[7:55]	otakup0pe Neumann:	No sound at all ? Do you mean no voice ?
[7:55]	Drew Dwi:	no sound at all I don't think effects overhead more bandwidth no?
[7:55]	Rex Cronon:	yeeeeaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!!! voice
[7:55]	Rex Cronon:	:(
[7:55]	Drew Dwi:	for tinsel - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-385
[7:55]	Richard Renneville:	common in 1.72 wyn
[7:55]	Tinsel Silvera:	got it drew
[7:55]	Tinsel Silvera:	thanks
[7:55]	Feynt Mistral:	I think to qualify as a light viewer it just needs to render the environment.
[7:55]	Rex Cronon:	with such a small communication window. is that a joke
[7:55]	Feynt Mistral:	And allow communcation.
[7:55]	Richard Renneville:	thats why I went to the voice first look
[7:55]	Tinsel Silvera:	drew - just add my info to the list?
[7:55]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Drop building from a light client.
[7:55]	Drew Dwi:	you'll prob wanna skim the comments and then see if you have anything to add
[7:56]	Tinsel Silvera:	cool
[7:56]	Tinsel Silvera:	thanks
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	well - wait
[7:56]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Drop any sort of creation. Make it strictly a viewer.
[7:56]	Drew Dwi:	yeah but how much overhead does the building take?
[7:56]	Tinsel Silvera:	yes
[7:56]	Drew Dwi:	these are all small things and gui I'd assume
[7:56]	Tinsel Silvera:	just a viewer
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	these seems like random featuers - for example. building costs nothing in CPU or memory if you don't do it
[7:56]	Drew Dwi:	rendering is the preformance killer
[7:56]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I'm imagining not much to be honest.
[7:56]	Drew Dwi:	yeah
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	So -
[7:56]	Feynt Mistral:	>D
[7:57]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Thinking more of a policy thing. Less people building random junk in an environment with their "company issued viewer". Less issues popping up for support... etc.
[7:57]	Zero Linden:	Answer me this: Are you looking for a "light viewer" --- SL 3D expereince with less CPU / Memory
[7:57]	Drew Dwi:	if the voice and windlight addons do not make noticable difference on cpu/memory then a lite viewer from LL is probably not needed, unless you were looking for a non rendered SL
[7:57]	Zero Linden:	or a "light client" -- Reduced functionality so you can be "on all the time"
[7:57]	Tinsel Silvera:	one that runs easier and smoother with less issues
[7:57]	Zero Linden:	what are you trying to achieve witha light viewer?
[7:57]	Tinsel Silvera:	on all the time
[7:57]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Zero once again, to be honest, I'm looking for a light client rather than light viewer.
[7:57]	Feynt Mistral:	I think that's what everyone wants, Zero. But I believe that "light" should allow for weaker computers to get online.
[7:57]	Drew Dwi:	both, but the first doesn't seem reasonable
[7:57]	Tinsel Silvera:	i would stay on much longer if not forced to sign off to clear out
[7:57]	otakup0pe Neumann:	But my client base tends to have recent-ish computers.
[7:57]	Drew Dwi:	and second I would guess needs to come from opensourced of the viewer?
[7:58]	Zero Linden:	Well- my sense is this
[7:58]	Zha Ewry shrugs... All users want that. The question, which is hard, even looking at the source.. is what makes it hard for the client to run on weak machines
[7:58]	Rex Cronon:	i just need a viewer that doesn't crash so hard that i have to unplug the power manually:(
[7:58]	Zero Linden:	It would be hard to strip out the stuff from the viewer that takes memory and CPU: It is all rendering
[7:58]	Tinsel Silvera:	ah
[7:58]	Drew Dwi:	Rex - that sadly isn't gonna happen in this conversation
[7:59]	Richard Renneville:	I need a viewer that allows me to do things to make Lindens without being punished
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	The stuff like building tools, land managment, profile, search, etc.... really don't take that much memory or CPU -- especially if you don't use 'em
[7:59]	Feynt Mistral:	>D
[7:59]	Rex Cronon:	i know is very unlikly, but i had to ask for it
[7:59]	Zha Ewry:	I'd like.. to see somewhat better hardening... in the client/devcie driver interaction.. but, I think that's mostly a mircrosoft, openGL device driver stupdity issue
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	SO - you could reduce the viewer CPU and memory foot print by dialing back the rendering
[7:59]	Wyn Galbraith:	So if we don't render we can go lite?
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	but I bet most of you don't do that, eh? Milk it for all it's got?
[8:00]	Tinsel Silvera:	i keep most of my options on minimal just to stay in longer
[8:00]	Drew Dwi:	Would LL consider making a client similar to just an instant messenger/group chat ? In a sense always on?
[8:00]	Feynt Mistral:	I turn down the rendering quality of the trees.... >.>;
[8:00]	Zha Ewry is a rendering hog. I crank it all the way up, except for tree textures.
[8:00]	Drew Dwi:	like an AIM but for SL?
[8:00]	Tinsel Silvera:	lol
[8:00]	Zero Linden:	Drew - that is a very interesting proposition
[8:00]	Tinsel Silvera:	good one zha
[8:00]	otakup0pe Neumann:	That already exists.
[8:00]	Drew Dwi:	if you limited it to say, group chat/IM's and group notices
[8:00]	Wyn Galbraith does too, Zha, with the trees.
[8:00]	Zero Linden:	And one we've batted about - though we don't have the resource to do right now
[8:00]	otakup0pe Neumann:	The developer has issues keeping it up to sync with the "latest and greatest" from SL.
[8:00]	Drew Dwi:	thats what I figured
[8:01]	otakup0pe Neumann:	1.18 will help with it.
[8:01]	Zero Linden:	But there's some good hard questions about that kind of expereince....
[8:01]	otakup0pe Neumann:	But there is a light IM client.
[8:01]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Zero it certainly ain't the metaverse.
[8:01]	Zero Linden:	Are you on a parcel of land when you're logged in with the "chat/IM only" client?
[8:01]	Drew Dwi:	yes you are where you were last
[8:01]	Rex Cronon:	i just wish ll would open a different port than 25 for sending emails in-world(25 is filtered by a lot of ISPs)
[8:01]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Yeah Zero. And you can teleport, and view inventory.
[8:01]	Drew Dwi:	a setting like busy/away would be optimal
[8:02]	Tinsel Silvera:	hello khammon
[8:02]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Drew that would be an easy addition to SLEEK.
[8:02]	Zero Linden:	Rex - that kind of thing is perfect for the Public JIRA - please enter it if it isn't already there
[8:02]	otakup0pe Neumann:	You can also "follow" avatars.
[8:02]	Khamon Fate:	Hi, I thunk we weren't meeting today.
[8:02]	Drew Dwi:	yeah I've tried it but its broke because of updates
[8:02]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning Khamon.
[8:02]	Tinsel Silvera:	"follow" ?
[8:02]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Yeah. Wait till message liberation !
[8:02]	Feynt Mistral:	Follow in the sense that you're blind, so you'd move towards someone to get around the sim.
[8:02]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Tinsel, yes, so you can follow an avatar whom you are talking to in chat (compared to IM)
[8:02]	Richard Renneville:	everything is broke by updates
[8:02]	Tinsel Silvera:	ah
[8:02]	Wyn Galbraith:	Top of the morn to ya, Khamon.
[8:02]	Zero Linden:	Well -- that's a good question - does a light client have to support inventory?
[8:02]	Tinsel Silvera:	got ya
[8:03]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Exactly Feynt.
[8:03]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Haha Zero no. And trust me with libsl's current inventory system you don't want it to =O
[8:03]	Drew Dwi:	thats obviously something that would be depending on the person
[8:03]	Khamon Fate:	Is it still morning? What a slow day.
[8:03]	Feynt Mistral:	It would be a good thing, Zero. Some people just need to sort their inventories sometimes, like at work during a coffee break.
[8:03]	Zero Linden:	Does a light client still support proximal chat?
[8:03]	otakup0pe Neumann:	SLEEK does.
[8:03]	Tinsel Silvera:	does inventory really put that much of a drag on you that everyone claims it does?
[8:03]	Khamon Fate:	And empty their inventories of unecessary items
[8:03]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Tinsel yeah when you are downloading it
[8:03]	otakup0pe Neumann:	It's an interestingly designed system.
[8:03]	Khamon Fate:	Only when the window is open.
[8:04]	Rex Cronon:	i noticed there is a compressed file on my pc containing the inventory
[8:04]	Tinsel Silvera:	i know if i change clothes too many times in one sitting i am kicked out
[8:04]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Yeah, if you are talking stock client.
[8:04]	Khamon Fate:	I notice a remarkable difference between having 5k+ items and trimming it down to 3k
[8:04]	otakup0pe Neumann twitches
[8:04]	Khamon Fate:	But only when the window is open
[8:04]	Drew Dwi:	proximal chat - yes its very much like an IRC client actually
[8:04]	Tinsel Silvera:	i keep mine under 1800 pieces
[8:04]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I nee to clean mine. Out of the 11k I probably only need 3k
[8:04]	Wyn Galbraith has 25k+ items.
[8:04]	Khamon Fate:	and especially when i search it
[8:05]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Zero, on that note, you could use testclient that ships with libsecondlife as a "light client".
[8:05]	otakup0pe Neumann:	If you liked Zork.
[8:05]	Khamon Fate:	well, technically, the window conducts a perpetual search
[8:05]	Rex Cronon:	too bad the the inventory is downloade and not uploaded on login:(
[8:05]	Hazelee Haller:	why does my compuer crash every time I delete a lot of inventory
[8:05]	Khamon Fate:	don't throck the inventory
[8:06]	Zero Linden imagines "You see an Object, an Object, an Object, a Bling Shoes by Fzzbudget. There are sims to the North, West, and East".
[8:06]	Khamon Fate:	hazelee it helps to delete a couple dozen items then empty trash, rinse, repeat
[8:06]	Feynt Mistral:	>D
[8:06]	otakup0pe Neumann:	"You are likely to be eaten by a griefer."
[8:06]	Tinsel Silvera:	ah
[8:06]	Hazelee Haller:	ok, thanks.
[8:06]	Feynt Mistral turns on a light!
[8:07]	Wyn Galbraith:	One of the problems with inventory is that when you make a new outfit with things that are copy & mod, you get extra copies of the same item. If out fits only referenced items instead of coping it would keep the size of the inventory down.
[8:07]	Zero Linden:	I've always thought we should expose inventory as a WebDAV drive
[8:07]	otakup0pe Neumann:	"You see a lolcube. You see a lolcube. You see a lolcube. Repeat x150000."
[8:07]	Zero Linden:	then you could just mount it on your desktop and play with it that way
[8:07]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Zero that would be unbeleivably awesome.
[8:07]	Feynt Mistral:	That'd be great.
[8:07]	Khamon Fate:	remember when philip told us to clean our inventories and everybody started dumping hundreds of items all at once and it crashed the asset system and they had to take the grid down
[8:07]	Khamon Fate:	happy days
[8:07]	Feynt Mistral:	>D
[8:07]	otakup0pe Neumann:	While logically that would imply easy backups, would it be exposed in such a way that you could "Drag and drop" objects onto your desktop.
[8:07]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Notecards, scripts, wav, wearables even, I can see that being drag and drop.
[8:08]	otakup0pe Neumann:	But objects I sense are more.... complicated.
[8:08]	Zero Linden:	Well, technically, it would have crashed the inventory system - when you clean your trash, the assets aren't deleted at that point
[8:08]	Rex Cronon:	why isn't there a php server where users can log in and change their inventory?
[8:08]	Khamon Fate claps for mounted inventory drives
[8:08]	Wyn Galbraith:	Should we bring up inventory considerations with Benjamin? Or is it beyond UI?
[8:08]	Feynt Mistral:	Zero, I've got a question regarding particle rendering. Recently I made a tree with some sculpted prims (I can pull it out if you like) and there's an issue with the particle emitters rendering when not in view.
[8:08]	Feynt Mistral:	Or rather, not emitting particles when not in view.
[8:08]	Zero Linden:	Well, if you have full perms, we could expose the object as a text file with an encrypted version of the contents.
[8:08]	Khamon Fate:	oh true, assets are eternal /me prays to The Central Asset Server
[8:09]	Tinsel Silvera:	lol
[8:09]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Why do you say encrypted contents.... in the event you don
[8:09]	otakup0pe Neumann:	So just the serialized objects Zero ?
[8:09]	otakup0pe Neumann:	't "own" them
[8:09]	Zero Linden:	Well - we do garbage collect them - but really - this is one of the harder garbage collections I've ever seen
[8:09]	Zero Linden:	and I've worked ona few
[8:09]	Khamon Fate:	Feynt does that happen anywhere you rez the item?
[8:09]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Sup Alpha.
[8:09]	Alpha Zaius:	hey hey
[8:09]	Tinsel Silvera:	hello alpha
[8:10]	Feynt Mistral:	Well I've only rezzed it in Serenity Woods, but I've noticed this about any long term particle emitters (i.e. not poofers)
[8:10]	Zero Linden:	Well - even with full perms to an object, you may not have full perms on the content - in which case,
[8:10]	Zero Linden:	since the perms on the content are stored in the enclosing object, you can't be allowed to modify those bits
[8:10]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Yeah I think that's what I meant.
[8:10]	Khamon Fate:	yeah it's gotta be hard to determine that an asset is not referenced by anyone's inventory or any sim as a rezzed item or isn't sitting idle in some other asset's inventory
[8:10]	Feynt Mistral:	If you're not looking at the emitter, it seems to rez a lot less particles. This is especially bad for my tree since it spits out particles in such wide intervals.
[8:11]	Zero Linden:	Exactly - so, garbage collection is difficult
[8:11]	Feynt Mistral nods
[8:12]	Zero Linden:	But to sum up - what you all think of when you think "light client" is either a) one with less CPU/Memory, or b) one where you are in world, can follow folks, have proximal chat, IM, and perhaps inventory
[8:12]	Khamon Fate:	i ask Feynt because some of my fountains and trees don't represent good particle effects when they're placed in areas thatare already saturated with particle commands
[8:12]	Tinsel Silvera:	exactly
[8:12]	Zero Linden:	Good to know
[8:12]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Hrm.
[8:12]	Feynt Mistral:	Serenity Woods is mostly devoid of particles.
[8:12]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I don't strictly agree with b, but it's the right theme.
[8:12]	Tinsel Silvera:	one that takes less from our pc so we can stay in longer - to be simply put
[8:12]	Wyn Galbraith votes for A
[8:12]	Zha Ewry blinks "I don't agree fully with b"
[8:13]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Personally, I think less features. A true "viewer".
[8:13]	Khamon Fate votes b)
[8:13]	Zha Ewry:	Takes less from our PC.. is so hard to quantify
[8:13]	Tinsel Silvera:	like a window into SL ota?
[8:13]	Rex Cronon:	why can't the normal viewr become light just by throwing off some switches?
[8:13]	Feynt Mistral votes B too.
[8:13]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Change b to be b) one where you are in world, however the features from the retail client may not all be present.
[8:13]	Khamon Fate:	well i take that back, can i vote for both?
[8:13]	Feynt Mistral:	Because rendering is the part that would definte it being light weight.
[8:13]	Wyn Galbraith:	Depends, if by lite you want to get it on your iphone, then I'd go for B too.
[8:13]	Zero Linden:	O - but once you put in rendering, all the other stuff just pales by comparison - they have almost no foot print on CPU. memory or network (except inventory)
[8:13]	Zha Ewry:	I think it does. Turne down rednering... and it's lighter.. And sometimes crashes a lt less
[8:13]	Tinsel Silvera:	i am with khamon
[8:13]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Yeah Haha. I vote for both.
[8:13]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Tinsel that's another story for another time ;)
[8:14]	Richard Renneville thinks that someday his issue will get to a Linden and he wont keep being punished by them for making money in world
[8:14]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Yeah, I understand Zero.
[8:14]	Zero Linden:	yes - you can vote for both
[8:14]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Which is why I made b a touch more abstract.
[8:14]	Tinsel Silvera:	lol
[8:14]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Heck. Someone might just want an explorer clone for inventory. Not even touching chat.
[8:14]	Wyn Galbraith:	So maybe we need two Lite versions, one for A and one for B :)
[8:14]	Zero Linden:	To me the big question on b) is --- do you appear in world - or are you IM only
[8:14]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Zero, with SLEEK, you are in world.
[8:14]	Khamon Fate:	you know, we talked about this at slcc views last year. the single most retainable feature y'all can build into the client is to present new residents with a basic mode, fewer menu options, pie options, keystrokes, build tools, prims types et al
[8:14]	Zha Ewry:	I can't see you being in world.. unless you are able to see people, but that's me
[8:14]	Zero Linden:	Yess, right now you have to be - there is no other way
[8:15]	Wyn Galbraith could be a ghost of herself.
[8:15]	Tinsel Silvera:	there is that software that claims to work with your inventory outside of SL - i tried it but couldn't get it to work
[8:15]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I don't see an issue with that.
[8:15]	Tinsel Silvera:	is it for real or just a come on?
[8:15]	Zero Linden:	Once the Agent Domain / Region Domain split happens,
[8:15]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I mean, it would make sense if you could sit on something etc.
[8:15]	Zha Ewry:	Soem sort of metaphor, like a ghos (as Wyn suggests) would be very reasonable
[8:15]	Khamon Fate:	and let them acclimate a bit to the environment and then set their client to advanced mode, or download the more complex version when they're ready
[8:15]	Zero Linden:	it will be possible to be logged in, but not "be" anywhere
[8:15]	Alpha Zaius:	secondlife without rendering is just a pretty version of AIM :P
[8:15]	Khamon Fate:	IF they *ever* need all those additional features.
[8:15]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Alpha what were you doing with CAPS?
[8:15]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Where you could connect to CAPS but not be connecte to a sim.
[8:15]	Zha Ewry:	But.. I don't want to have to worry about people "seeing" me when I'm not really there
[8:15]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Zero It's still kinda possible to do that.
[8:16]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Zha - more specifically, what they are rezzing around your neck :s
[8:16]	Alpha Zaius:	ya, you can communicate with caps without actually being anywhere
[8:16]	Khamon Fate:	I suppose it would help if that basic client were less demanding on the hardware as well. People might opt to use it for that reason alone.
[8:16]	Wyn Galbraith:	Floating head, or head in a jar as in Futurama.
[8:16]	Tinsel Silvera:	lol
[8:16]	Alpha Zaius:	x{
[8:16]	Hazelee Haller:	:)
[8:16]	Alpha Zaius:	xP
[8:16]	Tinsel Silvera:	please wyn not that {:o)
[8:16]	Zero Linden:	Alpha - true: In RL we use AIM to stay connected to people we like to see face-to-face. So wouldn't this be like AIM for SL: A way to stay in touch with folks we'd like to see in-world
[8:16]	Zero Linden:	?
[8:16]	Zero Linden:	OR
[8:16]	Wyn Galbraith:	Then people would know you're on Lite ;)
[8:16]	Zero Linden:	Is being in-world worth it, even if you can't see it
[8:16]	Zha Ewry:	There are important issues, having to do with the sense of "I'm here" or "not here"
[8:17]	Feynt Mistral:	Bah, just switch to OGRE3D for the client rendering. >D
[8:17]	Khamon Fate:	People get very very edgy when they realize you're not seeing their AV in all it's minute glory
[8:17]	Zha Ewry:	Having to do with how people expect you to interact
[8:17]	Tinsel Silvera:	this is true khamon
[8:17]	Zero Linden:	Alpha - you can't right now - but eventually, that is the plan - all via capabilities,
[8:17]	Rex Cronon:	i see a blob in fron of me is that u:)
[8:17]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Zero I think the only reason SLEEK does that is because there is no other way.
[8:17]	Wyn Galbraith rebakes so her glory is fresh.
[8:17]	Alpha Zaius:	I like being in world rather than use things like IRC or AIM ... its a lot easier to interact with someone that can dance like a monkey and build things
[8:18]	Khamon Fate:	and yes Zero it sometimes is. i have to log in every day to refund money, drop inventory on people, check group notices and such but don't really go anywhere or look at anything when i'm "working"
[8:18]	Tinsel Silvera:	i too login just to check on things and then back out
[8:18]	Zero Linden:	Alpha - I couldn't agree more: My engineering group spends all day logged in, all sitting in our "studio" which is on a Linden-Only region, and that is how we work as a team from multiple offices
[8:18]	Zha Ewry:	This is.. I think.. the usual thing..is SL a chat client.. or a place. By now, I accept that it's very different to different people
[8:18]	Tinsel Silvera:	do not need all the extras in those times
[8:18]	Khamon Fate:	that kind of access would be very helpful to me, especially when travelling and working from a laptop over slow wireless or dialup
[8:19]	Zero Linden:	and it is MUCH better than AIM (or IRC or Skype) -- we tried all those before we had voice in SL
[8:19]	Wyn Galbraith loves that image Zero.
[8:20]	Zero Linden:	So it sounds like - you'd all love to leave SL on all the time - if and only if, you had the CPU/memory and the assurance it wouldn't crash while you're busy on that 85 page Excel spreadsheet
[8:20]	Feynt Mistral imagines the one Linden showing up with an AO making his avatar walk upside down, floating in the air, just to be different. >3
[8:20]	Zero Linden:	so a thin client would let you do that....
[8:20]	Tinsel Silvera:	yes
[8:20]	Zero Linden:	But really, you'd rather just be in world
[8:20]	Khamon Fate:	sure, we can park right below the stock ticker and above weatherbug
[8:20]	Tinsel Silvera:	exactly
[8:20]	Feynt Mistral:	Well I'm in world all the time anyways. I just wish my Radeon 9700 Pro would get me better than 10 fps on the ground.
[8:21]	Zha Ewry nods.. I'd rather be in world.. and in fact.. when in the office, leave SL up on a second machine.. so I don't impact work..
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	Fenyt - one of the engineers in my studio is a lucky bamboo plant - if you don't have name badges on, or don't notice it, you think he's just part of the build
[8:21]	Feynt Mistral:	>D
[8:21]	Tinsel Silvera:	lol
[8:21]	Zha Ewry:	Which one is that :-)
[8:21]	Hazelee Haller:	lol
[8:21]	otakup0pe Neumann:	That is awesome Zero.
[8:21]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Yeah who is that
[8:21]	Tinsel Silvera:	very cool zero
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	Which indeed!
[8:21]	Zha Ewry:	Which
[8:21]	Wyn Galbraith:	The Firefox update has a new feature, if your computer crashes you can at least restore what was in your browser when you get back up.
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	Isn't that like remembering where you last were?
[8:22]	Rex Cronon:	i have been using that feature for that last year wyn
[8:22]	Khamon Fate:	d'ya know i played SL for three years before i found the location feature on the login page
[8:22]	Khamon Fate is such a gooberbrain
[8:22]	Tinsel Silvera:	no way
[8:22]	Wyn Galbraith didn't see it till she updated, "Must have been off by default then. I still blue screen a lot. Working on building a SL compliant system
[8:23]	Feynt Mistral:	Certainly wouldn't include windows.
[8:23]	Wyn Galbraith:	Might not.
[8:24]	Rex Cronon:	i do have a little script that remembers where i was:)
[8:24]	Tinsel Silvera:	drew?
[8:24]	Tinsel Silvera:	thought we lost you
[8:24]	Drew Dwi:	got pulled away
[8:24]	Tinsel Silvera:	ah
[8:24]	Zha Ewry:	So, Zero.. I think one of the interesting challanges.. going forward.. is how much visuial clutter is going to be needed to keep track of what things an Ave can do. You'ev already got the cues for voice chat. If you add cues for other interactions styles. Ick.
[8:24]	Drew Dwi:	yeah Wyn that feature and others is why Firefox has become memory hog :P
[8:24]	Feynt Mistral:	Oh, while I'm thinking about it, how goes the SpeedTree plan, Zero?
[8:24]	Rex Cronon:	not all i type makes it to the grid:(
[8:24]	otakup0pe Neumann:	HAha Feynt.
[8:25]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Yes. Speedtree :s
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	Zha - indeed - can be very difficult
[8:25]	Tinsel Silvera:	speedtree?
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	for example - right now I've go the whole "communication" window up - as need to be able to read history ( you all chat SO fast)
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	but it is blocking like 1/2 my screen
[8:25]	Zha Ewry:	Its important.. becuase. it's part of the "magic" that people expect you to be able to interact.. with them in certain ways.
[8:25]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Last I heard there was no work being done on it anymore, and I was looking at just hiring people myself to implement it.
[8:25]	Zha Ewry does too, for the sam reason
[8:25]	Feynt Mistral:	SpeedTree is an engine which lets you define a few basic trees, then the client renders variations on those trees. It's very fast and rather memory efficient.
[8:25]	Drew Dwi:	yeah so do I, dual screen or wouldn't be ble to do SL and get -ANYTHING- else done
[8:25]	Tinsel Silvera:	ooh
[8:26]	Wyn Galbraith loses a third of her screen and it covers a hud
[8:26]	Tinsel Silvera:	i like the sound of that
[8:26]	Feynt Mistral:	The SpeedTree engine renders some great trees too.
[8:26]	Zero Linden:	I dual screen too... but the problem is you can't pull SL windows out of the viewer window
[8:26]	Feynt Mistral:	Better than the current Linden trees on high detail.
[8:26]	Khamon Fate:	i mostly see chat history during meetings like this so miss "visual cues"
[8:26]	Zha Ewry would LOVE to have the "text" windows on her second monitor
[8:26]	Tinsel Silvera:	hello sifu
[8:27]	Khamon Fate:	these poses et al are all just programmed anyway
[8:27]	Zero Linden:	That would be a great OpenSource project by the way - wouldn't be hard - just allow our windows to open up in host windows with another OpenGL context
[8:27]	Drew Dwi:	that would be very slick, to be able to pop windows out
[8:27]	Sifu Moraga:	Hi all, just got out of a meeting
[8:27]	Zero Linden:	Well all -
[8:27]	Feynt Mistral:	Morning Sifu.
[8:27]	Zero Linden:	I have a 8:30 meeting
[8:27]	Zha Ewry:	He Sifu...
[8:27]	Zero Linden:	So I'm going to have to wrap it up
[8:27]	Zha Ewry:	*hey
[8:27]	Tinsel Silvera:	you are late by my time zero
[8:27]	Wyn Galbraith:	That would be great if the inventory and communicate windows could show up outside SL, like on another montor.
[8:27]	Zha Ewry:	Thanks, as Alway Zero..
[8:27]	Tinsel Silvera:	it is 11:30
[8:27]	Drew Dwi:	ah
[8:27]	Tinsel Silvera:	take care zero
[8:27]	Khamon Fate:	i've been told that speedtree integration was relegated to the open source project if anybody was interested in working on it
[8:27]	Tinsel Silvera:	nice meeting you
[8:27]	Sifu Moraga:	cu all, then
[8:27]	Drew Dwi:	he's got 4 mins, better not crash :P
[8:27]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Take it easy Zero.
[8:27]	Hazelee Haller:	Have a good day, Zero
[8:27]	Wyn Galbraith:	Thanks Zero.
[8:28]	Khamon Fate:	thanks for hosting zero
[8:28]	Feynt Mistral:	Night, Zero.
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	NEXT TUESDAY - HERE - Quality Assurance with Aric Linden
[8:28]	otakup0pe Neumann:	That is relevant to my interests.
[8:28]	Wyn Galbraith:	Morning for SF and SL.
[8:28]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Wait
[8:28]	otakup0pe Neumann:	Khamon what.
[8:28]	Zha Ewry:	QA!
[8:28]	Drew Dwi:	oo :)
[8:28]	Zha Ewry:	WOOOT!
[8:28]	Rex Cronon:	why have i been logged off:(
[8:28]	Feynt Mistral won't be able to make any more meetings.
[8:28]	Wyn Galbraith can't wait for QA ;)
[8:28]	Feynt Mistral:	At least, not for the next 3 months.
[8:28]	Rex Cronon:	do i have to jump up and down every 5 seconds:(
[8:28]	Khamon Fate:	what what? otakup
[8:28]	Wyn Galbraith:	I sure hope RL behaves.
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	Excellent - thanks all from coming -
[8:28]	Zha Ewry:	I hope Aric... is ready for tones of input
[8:28]	otakup0pe Neumann:	What you said about speedtree.
[8:28]	Feynt Mistral:	School just happens to occupy both slots for your office hours, Zero.
[8:28]	otakup0pe Neumann:	I've actually started looking at implementing it.
[8:29]	Zero Linden:	Sorry about last Tuesday and being too sick to even come in world and leave a notice
[8:29]	Zha Ewry:	Word got out
[8:29]	Hazelee Haller:	np
[8:29]	Tinsel Silvera:	np
[8:29]	otakup0pe Neumann:	OR rather hiring people to. I'm not a programer (but i could play one on TV) just ask Alpha.
[8:29]	Khamon Fate:	ha ha rex we used to have to jump in asheron's call just to be seen
[8:29]	Zha Ewry:	And, of course, np..
[8:29]	Wyn Galbraith:	We had a nice talk with MichealFrancis.
[8:29]	Tinsel Silvera:	have a good day zero
[8:29]	Zero Linden:	Thanks all - 'till next time!
[8:29]	Sifu Moraga:	I've been up to my ears transitioning stuff to others here