User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jul 31

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

Note: Due to temporary brain mis-placement, Zero didn't actually show up until 40 minutes after it started...

[13:06]	Wyn Galbraith:	wb Zha.
[13:06]	Wyn Galbraith is thinking of just Ruth'ng herself.
[13:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	I wonder how long it'll be before we have avs and attachments able to behave physically with respect to each other, so that clothes and hair can drape properly across bodies, and not slice into them. It's rarely even on the wishlists currently.
[13:06]	Wyn Galbraith:	Got an nice headshape.
[13:07]	Squirrel Wood:	the physics engine is unable to do it
[13:07]	Wyn Galbraith would love clothes to drape correctly.
[13:07]	Rex Cronon:	ok, i get it. lol
[13:07]	Wyn Galbraith:	Ruth is Ruth'd after all.
[13:08]	JayR Cela:	speaking of physics engines / what exactly is the Havoc engine??
[13:08]	Rex Cronon:	so u must understend how a male fills when suddenly he a has a new pair of breasts:)
[13:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Squirrel: it wouldn't need to be in world physics (which is server side), but only physics in clients.
[13:08]	Wyn Galbraith:	LOL @ Rex
[13:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	ya know
[13:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	Zero might not be here today with the grid in the shape its in
[13:09]	Rex Cronon:	havoc is a program that computes locations of objects in world, using phyics
[13:09]	Zha Ewry:	He's not on at the moemnt
[13:09]	Zha Ewry:	And he was earlier
[13:09]	Rex Cronon:	physics*
[13:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[13:09]	Wyn Galbraith:	Wonder what happened earlier. You know they could be online and we just can't see them.
[13:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Havoc (in its advanced versions) is that thing that will be appearing in SL the days that Duke Nuken Forever is released :-)
[13:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	well, thats what I mean.. if one of the db servers went down, he is the resident techy
[13:10]	Wyn Galbraith:	Lindens must have special powers, like Wizs on MU*s
[13:10]	JayR Cela:	so SL is going to eventually be switching over to this new physics engine Havok ??
[13:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	Havoc 4 I think is the next version of Havoc that will be in SL
[13:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so what's teh concensus? Coincidence are conspiracy as far as the current SL problems go?
[13:10]	Rex Cronon:	therefore there might be no office hours today
[13:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	4.5 is the current version
[13:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	Havoc 1 is what we use now
[13:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Somewhere around the time of the Second Coming
[13:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	I could care less about the .x subversions considering we're going from 1 to 4 :)
[13:11]	JayR Cela:	SO SL currently uses Havok 1
[13:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Havoc 2 was "close" two years ago ...
[13:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	yep
[13:11]	Wyn Galbraith:	I guess Havoc is a good name for something like phyics.
[13:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Havok. Changing the grid one sim at a time...
[13:11]	Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: Here's some wisdom for you:
[13:11]	Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: Man consists of body, mind and imagination. His body is faulty, his mind untrustworthy, but his imagination has made him remarkable. -- John Masefield
[13:11]	Zha Ewry:	Has anyone actually looked at what changes betwen Havoc 1 and Havoc 4?
[13:11]	Wyn Galbraith:	*physics
[13:11]	Wyn Galbraith hasn't.
[13:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	I always screw up the c and k
[13:11]	Rex Cronon:	i think qarl says that ll is working on havock4
[13:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its hard to find much info about Havok's capabilities beond little bullets on a web page
[13:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm guessing .. everything Zha? :)
[13:12]	Zha Ewry:	I doubt it
[13:12]	Zha Ewry:	I mean you still get to stand on solid object ;-)
[13:12]	Zha Ewry:	Things still fall
[13:12]	Zha Ewry:	And so on
[13:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm just psyched that StarCraft 2 will have physics.. (I don't know if they are havok based or not)
[13:12]	Jarod Godel kicks Twitter
[13:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Let me see if I can find an article that was on their webpage that was directed to Havok developers
[13:12]	Wyn Galbraith:	Really? I need to get that.
[13:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	The only real change we need in Havoc 1 is to get it to work for negative heights ... so that we can have those Parcel Basements that are the ideal solution to privacy in SL
[13:12]	Zha Ewry:	The reason I ask. is that, like Mono, you're going to see all the things thich are tuned to the bugs in the current Havok will break
[13:13]	Rex Cronon:	i think objects will no longer pass through others at high speeds
[13:13]	Jarod Godel:	The september Views meeting has havok 4 on the agenda
[13:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	http://www.havok.com/misc/physicsEfficiency-2007.pdf
[13:13]	Zha Ewry:	Parcel basements will only add privacy, if they fix the fly the camera evrywhere feature
[13:13]	Jarod Godel:	maybe we'll know more after that
[13:13]	Kooky Jetaime:	fix the fly everywhere?
[13:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	we need joints among other things
[13:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	No, you can't get the zero-constraint camera to go that far. The Parcel Basement is 1 Km down.
[13:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	hrm
[13:14]	Rex Cronon:	what parcel basement u talking about?
[13:14]	Kooky Jetaime:	parcel basement? I'm lost
[13:14]	Wyn Galbraith wants to be able to wiggle her fingers.
[13:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	And there is no leakage into adjacenet plots, simply because the plot numbers differ between clients.
[13:15]	Zha Ewry:	Ah
[13:15]	Wyn Galbraith:	Greetings Chaley
[13:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Rex: search for Parcel Basement in the forums. It's the leading concept for implementing privacy in SL ... extremely simple implementation, and easyy for people to use too.
[13:15]	Zha Ewry:	Even with disable constraints I don't think ou can go 1KM
[13:15]	Zha Ewry:	But.. I bet it is still limtied unless you own the whole sim
[13:15]	Chaley May:	No Zero Hour?
[13:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Zha: correct, you can't --- it's a teleport ot get to get to your parcel basement
[13:15]	Zha Ewry:	Because people will have besements near each other and fly cmeras
[13:16]	Zha Ewry:	Unless you partition them fully
[13:16]	Khamon Fate:	You know though, Jardon, they're gonna show y'all a havok4 demo with a specialized server and client indicating that it'll never actually be integrated into the production grid
[13:16]	Zha Ewry:	And then. you only have to worry about lindens
[13:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Zha: no, objects in adjacent basements don't see each other
[13:16]	Rex Cronon:	i can't access the forums, because i becames a member after the hackers broke in last year, and becasue i am not a paying memeber:(
[13:16]	Kooky Jetaime:	Well,
[13:16]	Jarod Godel:	well, they're not showing me...i can't go. :(
[13:16]	Jarod Godel:	sad, sad
[13:16]	Khamon Fate:	It'll go the path of Speedtree, the new graphics engine, Mono, html on a prim
[13:16]	Kooky Jetaime:	Lets find out what happens now the bulk the day de liberation is past
[13:16]	Kooky Jetaime:	hahahaha
[13:17]	Wyn Galbraith gets all giggly, "Someone is feeding my koi."
[13:17]	Zha Ewry:	I think that privacy, is more a matter of Linden deciding they need to do it, than anytthing else
[13:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's what makes Parcel Basements so easy to implement: the decision whether to send an object to a client is done simply on parcel identifier.
[13:17]	Khamon Fate:	99% done but won't plug into the system without major overhauls that are no fun to do
[13:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Someone's coming
[13:17]	Zha Ewry:	They basically could get you 90% of the way there by keeping an eye on ban lines, when ou camera moves
[13:18]	Rex Cronon:	if programmers did only fun things, there would be no windows:)
[13:18]	Wyn Galbraith:	It's not Zero.
[13:18]	Wyn Galbraith:	LOL @ Rex
[13:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	No, implementing privacy above ground is an utter can of worms. It's been explored.
[13:18]	Wyn Galbraith wants to dig under ground, really.
[13:18]	Zha Ewry:	Well.. Depends on how much provacy you want and how much room you have
[13:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	Really? since it often seems that Windows is just cobbled together in someones back room
[13:18]	Kooky Jetaime snickers
[13:19]	Rex Cronon:	there is a very simple way to have privacy:)
[13:19]	Wyn Galbraith:	You buy an island. That's privacy.
[13:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Parcel Basements is just exactly the same shape as a parcel, except 1Km down, teleport the only way to it.
[13:19]	Kooky Jetaime:	Agreed Wyn
[13:19]	Kooky Jetaime:	hehe
[13:19]	Rex Cronon:	i don't think they enjoyed putting it toghether kooky:)
[13:19]	Chaley May:	i think privacy is easy done and just needs all things to be tagged if it should be seen or not by others outside the parcel
[13:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, so privacy is only for those who can afford an island?
[13:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	believe it or not
[13:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	anyone can have privacy
[13:20]	Zha Ewry:	Well..
[13:20]	Zha Ewry:	That would be lame
[13:20]	Squirrel Wood:	use a private chat
[13:20]	Rex Cronon:	no, that is not the privace i was thinking about
[13:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	its called da minimap.. if your doing private things, you make sure noone is around
[13:20]	Zha Ewry:	And LOL
[13:20]	Rex Cronon:	u can use open sim:)
[13:20]	Wyn Galbraith:	Exactly Squirrel. There are other ways to get privacy.
[13:20]	Zha Ewry:	No, privacy would mean not having to worry
[13:20]	Squirrel Wood:	kooky you forget secret chat relays
[13:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	That too.. IMs are the ultimate in privacy
[13:20]	Saijanai Kuhn:	could always drop into a 2person croaquet world... ;-)
[13:21]	Zha Ewry:	I get pretty close to real privacy when I close off access to an island with no land adjacent
[13:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	Saijanai - I think your overkilling the croquet bit..
[13:21]	Zha Ewry:	But.. That's way way expensive
[13:21]	Squirrel Wood:	okay. No Zero today.
[13:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	what, you don't think that having a mini server isn't a kool?
[13:21]	Chaley May:	I also think people should be able to know exactly what is processing their chat and what they are sending
[13:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well unlike the comments here, the topic was treated seriously on the forums, and looking for implementations that would be easy for LL to do. But there's no sign that they would.
[13:21]	Zha Ewry:	The real things that limti privacy are camera flying and chat propogation
[13:21]	Zha Ewry:	And it is a semi serious topic
[13:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	We're serious.. but we like to have fun while serious
[13:22]	Zha Ewry:	Although.. From the (sigh) corporate perspective it isn't private if we don't own the server that data flows on
[13:22]	Wyn Galbraith:	It's hard to expect privacy in a world like this one.
[13:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	The only thing I see happening though, is what happens when everyone has a basement?
[13:22]	Rex Cronon:	actually is possible to create a small function that ecrypts the chat, so only those people that have the same function know what the other is saying:)
[13:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	are they completely isolated from the neighboring parcel or?
[13:23]	Chaley May:	I think privacy is easily possible but really most people want to be able to spy
[13:23]	Rex Cronon:	encrypts*
[13:23]	Chaley May:	so they will allow it
[13:23]	Zha Ewry:	We can't talk about Company confidential stuff, anywhere on SL, because LL holds all the bits, and LL can see any chat
[13:23]	Wyn Galbraith:	That's true.
[13:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	never say anything in SL that you wouldn't want overheard on the phone or someone to see in your mail
[13:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	and your fine
[13:23]	Rex Cronon:	if u encrypt the chat doesn't really matter what anybody else sees
[13:23]	Wyn Galbraith:	Same with email.
[13:23]	Zha Ewry:	We sometimes end up with Aves standinfg looking silent, talkign on internal chat. Whcich is lame
[13:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	yes, totally isolated, because in the engine, for depths below a certain value, objects are only sent to clients whos avatars are within the parcel in question. So, there can be no leakage.
[13:24]	Wyn Galbraith:	Don't put anything in your email you wouldn't want Judge Judy to read on national TV.
[13:24]	Chaley May:	just had an idea.. people should be able to set wether their chat is detectable by scripts like a type of script ignore
[13:24]	Zha Ewry:	And you have to do the same for spaitalized sound, adn chat
[13:25]	Chaley May:	i think its easy for them to do things like that
[13:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	Chaley - LL is hesitent to do anything that changes the generalized "expected" functioning of the client or world
[13:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	the idea of changing the client to "Double Click to Wear" objects was denied because doublicking an object and getting the properties is the "Expected" behavire
[13:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kooky: yes indeed, that was one of the "cans of worms" problems with privacy boxes above ground --- the world would no longer work as expected.
[13:26]	Chaley May:	i know but its an optional system which can be enabled when privacy is needed
[13:26]	Zha Ewry:	Breaking expected consensus reality is painful.. but.. It is going to happen from time to time
[13:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	Chaley -but then what about the noob who turns it on, then suddenly her AO don't respond?
[13:26]	Squirrel Wood:	/ao on
[13:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	or varioous other scripts and "Every day" items that rely on spoken commands
[13:27]	Saijanai Kuhn:	sub-worlds is the only way to go for true privacy. Yes they are expensive, but if you are really THAT worried, you can't be doing transactions in SL.
[13:27]	Chaley May:	no its a ignore feature to make scripts ignore your chat
[13:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	Well, Looking at some graphcis this mornign
[13:27]	Chaley May:	all scripts will function still
[13:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wehereas with Parcel Basements, all the semantics of SL remain the same, because the main block is 1 Km of solid bedrock, plus the guarantee of object filtering at the server before downloading to clients.
[13:27]	Chaley May:	they just wont be able to ehar you
[13:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	that show the "next step" in multiple domain setup
[13:27]	Rex Cronon:	peer2peer is a better form of privacy
[13:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	looks quite interesting, and anyone can have privacy practically
[13:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	Peer2Peer is anything but private
[13:28]	Chaley May:	yes i think its very easy to use
[13:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	Unless you mean in the sense of DCC
[13:28]	Rex Cronon:	if is encrypted yes
[13:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	how is peer to peer less priv ate than SL?
[13:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	The privacy discussions on the SL forum were about privacy systems for SL, not privacy outside of SL.
[13:29]	Zha Ewry:	Well, and this came up last week
[13:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	I think SL needs to get back to the Linux way of thinking. Do one thing, and do it well.... don't turn into windoz and try to do everything, but do it half-assed
[13:29]	Zha Ewry:	Most people want to be able to be private, when they want, but not have to leave the world
[13:29]	Rex Cronon:	if u use opensim is that in or outside sl?
[13:30]	Saijanai Kuhn:	sure, which is why people prefer to use SL's creation tools over third party tools, even though they are better
[13:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	Rex - based on the graphics I saw earlier, opensim will be both
[13:30]	Zha Ewry:	The problems with "solutinions" like go to openSim,or Croquet is that you lose you connection to the collaborative world
[13:30]	Adam Xinpeng:	Hiya everyone (sorry for the being late)
[13:30]	Chaley May:	i think SL needs to make things more simple
[13:30]	Saijanai Kuhn:	what is that connection? THe main interaction unless you are in the same general area, is via chat/IM
[13:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	Chaley - as long as that simplicity is not at the sacrifice of power for those of us who want it
[13:31]	Rex Cronon:	hi adam, u have nothing to be sorry about, zero is not here
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	Objects,
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	scripts
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	visibiolity
[13:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Rex: a different implementation will have different solutions. The centralized grid is horibly broken as a concept for a million reasons, but people still want it to work, a bit. OpenSim has a far better future, ince it's not constrained by centralization.
[13:31]	Chaley May:	there is way too much controls hidden in this client we dont need
[13:31]	Adam Xinpeng:	Ah, is Zero late or not attending this week?
[13:32]	Wyn Galbraith:	Zero might be busy.
[13:32]	Rex Cronon:	so, u can have a client that connects u to the main grid, while at the same time allows p2p
[13:32]	Zha Ewry:	Well, At the end of the day, state melding 100 Avatars is hard, and allowing people to drag object collections across thousdands of sims is hard
[13:32]	Saijanai Kuhn:	he's likely busy with the after math of the grid going down
[13:32]	Adam Xinpeng:	Hrrm.
[13:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	The client's not an issue, that can be made to do anything we want. The shared world implementation is a far harder problem.
[13:32]	Adam Xinpeng:	Anyone tried to contact him?
[13:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	Not p2p..god please let there never be p2p
[13:32]	Saijanai Kuhn:	sure. The solution is many-faceted, though.
[13:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	I think we're having a decent office hour here without Zero... I think he'd be happy
[13:33]	Saijanai Kuhn:	yeah, P2P will ddstroy SL just like voice has
[13:33]	Wyn Galbraith:	I'm sure Zero would love it.
[13:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	Give me a second, there was another lindens office I was near earlier
[13:33]	Rex Cronon:	when i say p2p, i mean that i should be able to connect directly to other ip/port of the person that i want to talk to, and the other person should be able to do the same
[13:33]	Wyn Galbraith:	Benjamin's or Robin's which was lead by Catherine.
[13:34]	Chaley May:	what would they use P2P for? so we can share files?
[13:34]	Jurin Juran:	hello tree what's the word?
[13:34]	Saijanai Kuhn:	there's plenty of ways to do that already.
[13:34]	Zha Ewry:	The issue there rex, is that as soon as you go that way, you're doing un scalabale tatemelding
[13:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	actually had the model of how OpenSim would integrate, as well as business owned sims, and even ones out of your garage, with the existing ll grid
[13:34]	Wyn Galbraith:	/waves to Tree.
[13:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	P2P has so many meanings that it's not helpful to use the word.
[13:34]	Tree Kyomoon waves to wyn
[13:34]	Saijanai Kuhn:	how about client-to-client then
[13:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	((I'd give you a location, but my map is grey so I can't see where it was))
[13:34]	Zha Ewry:	Well client to client, is fine as long as you don't need to let a third party see it.
[13:35]	Kooky Jetaime:	Well, that would be the whole point for Privacy
[13:35]	Zha Ewry:	The whole balancing act for somethign like SL is to manage state melding in the medium
[13:35]	Wyn Galbraith:	Zero's a no show Tree. I guess due to the earlier crash there are bigger fires to put out then to be here.
[13:35]	Rex Cronon:	see what zha?
[13:35]	Adam Xinpeng:	Kooky: the way we are approaching integrating OpenSim into other grids is to essentially not.
[13:35]	Saijanai Kuhn:	sure, as far as I know, OpenSim hosts a mini-sim on your ownmachine, right?
[13:35]	Zha Ewry:	Ah, but most people don't want 1-1 privact
[13:35]	Tree Kyomoon:	oh no!
[13:35]	Zha Ewry:	they want to share with N people, in one area
[13:35]	Adam Xinpeng:	Sounds assbackwards but the goal is simple: We should be relying on real systems like DNS and plain TCP to handle "grid" work
[13:35]	Adam Xinpeng:	Yes, OpenSim's a open source implementation of the SL Grid & Sim systems
[13:35]	Tree Kyomoon:	ah well...could also be all these news stories about "terrorism in SL"
[13:35]	Zha Ewry:	Within reason, yes, Adam
[13:35]	Adam Xinpeng:	( opensimulator.org )
[13:35]	Chaley May:	terrorism in SL?
[13:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Adam, what's the world/zone/sim architecture in OpenSim?
[13:35]	Rex Cronon:	than u use open sim, and u can have one to many
[13:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	Adam - Not other grids per say, but integrating into the multi-domain design and having the LL "Utilities" (Lindens, Database, Assets, Etc) available
[13:36]	Zha Ewry:	Tho.. nothing in TCP, DNS or so on does state melding
[13:36]	Zha Ewry:	That's what the SIm does
[13:36]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the current croquet model is to allow 2-way or one-way portals, with host apporvlal an option to log into an existing world
[13:36]	Wyn Galbraith:	Is that post we talked aobut eariler, Tree?
[13:36]	Zha Ewry:	What your're really going to wrestle with is the semi-central services
[13:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	yea, I was reading some people trying to say that LL is covering about the grid issues over the weekend and that it was in fact a coordinated griefer attack
[13:36]	Zha Ewry:	Assets, presence. etc.
[13:37]	Rex Cronon:	that might be a possiblility kooky
[13:37]	Wyn Galbraith:	Well, there's a certain someone who will remain nameless who presents theories without good sources.
[13:37]	JayR Cela:	I heard the same thing Kooky
[13:37]	Adam Xinpeng:	Zha: the idea to avoid those is to simply not rely on a central authority.
[13:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm hesitent to believe it
[13:37]	Adam Xinpeng:	Zha: eg, "users" can pass around their preffered servers with their connection.
[13:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its an obvious speculation. No-one outslide LL can possibly know if it is true or not
[13:37]	Adam Xinpeng:	Allowing users to cross from their home grid to other grids, and still access things.
[13:37]	Rex Cronon:	.
[13:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	but at the same time if it is true, and LL is bold face lying this much, do we really want to do business with them?
[13:37]	Wyn Galbraith doesn't believe anything this person says, "My mommy use to say, believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see."
[13:37]	Adam Xinpeng:	It was a disk failure apparently.
[13:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	what have they said is the problem?
[13:38]	Chaley May:	i heard all these problems was because of untested voice upgrades after they did a rolling restart on friday to install them
[13:38]	Adam Xinpeng:	I'm betting it was a disk failure - this has happened several times ago.
[13:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	They said failure to back up a database at one of the server centers caused the issue
[13:38]	Adam Xinpeng:	Voice isnt likely to be it - LL isnt running the voice servers, they are indepenent
[13:38]	Tree Kyomoon:	no there was articles in the telegraph journal, the austrailian, several others speculating that SL was the perfect place for terror groups to meet, train, exchange money etc
[13:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	complicated by the added load
[13:38]	Wyn Galbraith:	Have to be a lot of disks to take the whole grid down.
[13:38]	Rex Cronon:	yes friday the whole mess started:(
[13:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	Today, the emergency grid shutdown was due to the loss of one of the DB drives
[13:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Adam, can you tell us something about how the OpenSim architecture differs from the SL grid?
[13:39]	JayR Cela:	yep right after the rolling restart things started to get borked
[13:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	if you wern't here earlier, around 11:30SLT, the grid went through a hard shutdown.. everyone off and no logins
[13:39]	Wyn Galbraith:	Maybe the backbone?
[13:39]	Adam Xinpeng:	Morgaine: sure - any specific topic?
[13:39]	Rex Cronon:	i think it was 10:30
[13:39]	JayR Cela:	the blog says a database sever went afoul
[13:39]	Wyn Galbraith:	It was.
[13:39]	Wyn Galbraith:	10:30ish.
[13:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Adam: centralization vs distribution, scalability
[13:40]	Adam Xinpeng:	Alright - basically our approach has been towards "fiefdoms"
[13:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	JayR - I think its far more likely that their Friday Update had "Unintended Consiquences" and in the face of admitting that after being told by residents not to do that crap ( friday software updates) it bit them in the ass, AGAIN
[13:40]	Adam Xinpeng:	That is, you have your own mini-grid which in turn can communicate with other mini grids
[13:40]	Tree Kyomoon:	and for SL, a "database server" is the very fabric of spacetime
[13:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	OK
[13:40]	Adam Xinpeng:	SL has a single authority for everything, but our ideas have been along the ideas of email or jabber
[13:40]	Wyn Galbraith:	Ah I see it now. forgot to refresh the page.
[13:40]	Adam Xinpeng:	You have a "home" grid for your avatar - that's where it's assets are stored.
[13:40]	JayR Cela:	yeah they have to stop this do stuff on Friday and then take the weekend off routine'
[13:41]	Adam Xinpeng:	Then, when you go visit a sim on another grid, during the sim transfer crossing, it spits out a nicely little package you can take with you which includes URLs and other server information for your home grid - when you do inventory or asset work, it knows how to get at them.
[13:41]	Wyn Galbraith prefers Wednesday morning, so she can clean her bathroom.
[13:41]	Rex Cronon:	so each viewer, becomes a mini-vesel that can connect to others like itself, or dock in a spacestation:)
[13:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	I would love to see a internal policy that no server updates can be performed on Friday
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	"each viewer is a mini-vesel...."
[13:41]	Wyn Galbraith:	Hey Zero's here!
[13:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	server or client
[13:41]	Adam Xinpeng:	Rex: sort of - a lot of the work is done by your home grid, but once your off, you have moved.
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	wow - that's poetic
[13:41]	Adam Xinpeng:	Hey Zero
[13:41]	JayR Cela:	I agree on the no friday idea
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	I'm so sorry all - today's outage just threw me entirely
[13:42]	Rex Cronon:	hi zero
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	and I flubbed it
[13:42]	Adam Xinpeng:	We were just discussing grid architectures - opensim's one vs the LL one.
[13:42]	Wyn Galbraith cheers, "Our hero!"
[13:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	and if it is necessary to update software on Friday, that full staff will be available for 36 hours after the update to deal with consequences
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	oh my - well... that's no small discussion
[13:42]	Wyn Galbraith:	We held the meeting without you, hope you don't mind ;)
[13:42]	JayR Cela:	I agree with Kiiky
[13:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	thats fine Zero, we've been carrying on without you...
[13:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Adam: what happens in the scenario that 500 people from 500 private grids go to a single other place for an event?
[13:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	if you want a log, I'll give it to you
[13:42]	Adam Xinpeng:	everythings done on demand
[13:42]	Adam Xinpeng:	So it wont start accessing assets/etc until you have requested them.
[13:43]	Saijanai Kuhn:	home is the Hero. How goes teh War?
[13:43]	Zero Linden decline The Night Owl Club, Isle of Miracles (105, 33, 23) from A group member named Jade Angkarn.
[13:43]	Adam Xinpeng:	and because the heavy lifting is done by your home grid (the storage & management), it also distributes things nicely.
[13:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Welcome to your office hours, Zero :-))))
[13:43]	Coffee Mug whispers: Ahh! Fresh Hot Coffee
[13:43]	Adam Xinpeng:	That sim wont have to manage 500 users inventory, their home grids are already doing that.
[13:43]	Zha Ewry:	We'ev been having a good office hour, Zero
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	cool - I like being a visitor
[13:43]	Zha Ewry:	We'll post a transcirpt ;-)
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	do!
[13:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[13:43]	Zha Ewry:	(Actually< i'll mail it to you)
[13:44]	Zha Ewry:	I have one
[13:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	I do have a question for the "Visitor" if he wants to try one... I asked earlier and noone answered
[13:44]	Rex Cronon:	i think decentralization is a really good thing:)
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	well, I don't want to iterrupt
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	so I'll let Adam chair!
[13:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	just a debate aboiut centralization vs decentralization
[13:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	Adam: do the individual worlds talk directly to the one's own, or is the traffic mediated by the world holding the shared event?
[13:44]	Adam Xinpeng:	Heh, I was just answering questions.
[13:45]	Wyn Galbraith:	Welcome Rob.
[13:45]	Adam Xinpeng:	Morgaine: when you vist a sim - it is authoritive for your avatar, but it can leverage the home grid to use it's userservices, etc when it relates to your avatar.
[13:45]	JayR Cela:	If you decentralize does that not open SL to a greater risk of outside attacks
[13:45]	Adam Xinpeng:	Basically - I mentioned email/jabber before.
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	Oh - there is a debate? I'm with Adam - I'm all for decentralization.
[13:45]	Adam Xinpeng:	The idea is the same:
[13:45]	Adam Xinpeng:	Your home grid is like your ISP's mailserver
[13:45]	Adam Xinpeng:	When you want to recieve say an instantmessage, or a request for an inventory item - it gets sent there, which in turn processes the request.
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	BUT - there are times when people or organizations get benefit by running their part of the decentralized thing together
[13:46]	Rex Cronon:	i think direct, the mediator should only help establish the initial connection
[13:46]	Kooky Jetaime:	Can a child prim of an attachment llApplyImpulse? I have a flightscript that just won't work if its in a child prim of an attachment, but works fine in the root.. As far as I can tell, its functioning normally, but no impulses. <If you can answer it, great, if not, just ignore this.>
[13:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	LOL, Zero, I don't think there's a debate from the PoV of anyone who understands scalability. Centralization has no future :-)))
[13:46]	Adam Xinpeng:	So you get some of the benefit of centralisation (efficiency) but you can always break it in half whenever you need to scale.
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	Also, we must be sure to distinguish centralization of the form "All hail the central DB" vs. a centralized root of an otherwise delegated tree (like DNS)
[13:47]	Wyn Galbraith:	Zero, would the message liberation have anything to do with our current problems, today's downtime not included?
[13:47]	Saijanai Kuhn mues that pooer Decentralization is getting stomped on. Will no-one step forward in its defense?
[13:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Adam: so a large component of the traffic is direct to client from the worlds with the assets, right? Ie. much of traffic is p2p
[13:47]	Zero Linden:	Kooky- that kind of detailed LSL question is lost on me....
[13:47]	Kooky Jetaime:	proper decentralization?
[13:47]	Adam Xinpeng:	Morgaine: exactly.
[13:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Good
[13:47]	Tree Kyomoon:	/tree imagines the best solution is not as simple as decentralization vs centralization
[13:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	poor Decentralization, I knew him well....
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	Current problems were all due to database issues.... All Hail the Central DB
[13:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	poor Centralization... that is
[13:48]	Rex Cronon:	divide and conquer is something very useful:)
[13:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well we all knew from Tron that the Master Control Program was doomed to failure :-))))
[13:48]	Adam Xinpeng:	We were talking about this last meeting actually-
[13:48]	Chaley May:	there wasnt a terrorist attack on the servers?
[13:48]	Wyn Galbraith:	There are some who are saying that the message liberation has destablized SL.
[13:48]	Adam Xinpeng:	having the world map actually an octtree - so each square can be cut & quartered.
[13:48]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hahahah
[13:49]	Wyn Galbraith:	Oh and that too, terrorist attack.
[13:49]	Adam Xinpeng:	Wyn: I suspect it probably has - but it's transitory
[13:49]	Adam Xinpeng:	Any new system will have it's kinks.
[13:49]	Kooky Jetaime:	message liberation hasn't even really begun has it?
[13:49]	Kooky Jetaime:	I thought its just a fact of the code is in place for it to happen
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	Wyn - Msg. Lib. has been out for a month now and I don't think we're seeing anything internall related to it
[13:49]	Zha Ewry:	I don't see that enough stuff is there for this to be messgae liberation
[13:49]	Wyn Galbraith:	the Message lib has started.
[13:49]	Saijanai Kuhn:	The day that CAPs was implmented the SoSL group had virtually no IM errors.
[13:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Homeland Security raided the grid because they heard Che Guevara was leading some kind of Liberacion revolution.
[13:49]	Wyn Galbraith:	I knew it wasn't true, Zero, just wanted to verify.
[13:49]	Tree Kyomoon:	I did want to also ask about the articles about terrorism in SL recently, speculating that this place could enable training and money exchange for them...and how the technology might prevent that kind of thing
[13:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	Speaking of a month Zero, ya might want to derez your signs that say no hours on the 12th :)
[13:50]	Wyn Galbraith:	Che's ghost you mean.
[13:50]	Adam Xinpeng:	Tree: any technological solution is bound to fail.
[13:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wyn: he was rezzed ;-)
[13:50]	Wyn Galbraith:	LOL
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	Tree - those would be questions about community, governance and policy - best directed at Robin
[13:50]	Adam Xinpeng:	Unfortunatley, you cant program common sense. Heh.
[13:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	somebody's ride is here
[13:50]	Rex Cronon:	is kind of hard to monitor everything that happens in sl
[13:50]	Wyn Galbraith:	I saw Captain Jack Sparrow on the grid today so why not Che ;)
[13:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	where is Kibo when you need him?
[13:50]	Chaley May:	im not sure any terrorists groups would do terrorists training on a game based in america lol
[13:51]	Wyn Galbraith:	It would be pretty lame Chaley.
[13:51]	Chaley May:	china maybe
[13:51]	Rex Cronon:	hmm, the irony:)
[13:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well we're bound to have SWAT raids at the behest of the RIAA/MPAA here in due course. Just wait for it ... :-(
[13:51]	Wyn Galbraith:	I guess conspiracy theories just never go away huh?
[13:51]	Zero Linden:	Oy
[13:52]	Tree Kyomoon:	it seems silly to me,but theres been a lot of articles lately in the telegraph journal, the austrailian, Im not sure what they expect the Lindens to do about it
[13:52]	Wyn Galbraith patpat's Zero, "Sorry."
[13:52]	Rex Cronon:	there are new theories for a new medium:)
[13:52]	Adam Xinpeng:	Tree: It's just garbage - "The Australian" is our equivilent of the Daily Sun.
[13:52]	Adam Xinpeng:	It's nothing but trash.
[13:52]	Wyn Galbraith:	Tabloid?
[13:52]	Adam Xinpeng:	Close. Tabloid masquerading as newspaper.
[13:52]	Saijanai Kuhn:	do they have Page 3 Girls?
[13:52]	Wyn Galbraith:	oh Geeze
[13:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	The non-tabloids are no better, it's just a matter of degree.
[13:53]	Kooky Jetaime:	Well, as long as we have people "selling" movies that I'm pretty sure are bootleg (I saw a shop offering "License to Wed" and other "Just out at the theater" movies.... call me crazy but I doubt its legal.)
[13:53]	Wyn Galbraith:	I have a 73 year old roommate that thinks tabloids publish only the truth.
[13:53]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm sure the mpaa will be looking down their noses just building their resources
[13:53]	Adam Xinpeng:	Heh.
[13:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	big time wrestling fan?
[13:53]	Adam Xinpeng:	Kooky: it's bound to happen, but there's little in the way you can do about policing.
[13:53]	Adam Xinpeng:	Policing content is tough.
[13:53]	Wyn Galbraith:	No he hates wrestling.
[13:53]	Adam Xinpeng:	Just ask Google
[13:53]	Tree Kyomoon:	I thought some things like age verification would help
[13:54]	Kooky Jetaime:	well, I'll agree that its no easy task
[13:54]	JayR Cela:	hey Big time wrestling is real / everyone knows that / LOL :_)
[13:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Zero: has anyone been plotting a snalig graph of various things versus population in LL, since the beginning?
[13:54]	Wyn Galbraith:	LOL
[13:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	find an article on wrestling in his tabloid and point it out to him
[13:54]	Wyn Galbraith:	JayR!
[13:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	scaling*
[13:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	"scaling graph", that was meant to be
[13:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its quite entertaining as long as you view it as ad libbed stunts with ad libbed lines
[13:54]	Wyn Galbraith:	It's all acting, when the Hulk did his first movie and they said he couldn't act I had to LMAO.
[13:54]	Rex Cronon:	is real in peoples imagination:)
[13:54]	Tree Kyomoon would like to see a snailing graph
[13:55]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and some of htose stunts are quite good
[13:55]	Wyn Galbraith:	Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	Well
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	RacerX Gullwing would be the go-to-AV for any snailing graphs
[13:55]	Rex Cronon:	interesting, talking werstling at zeros office hour. lol
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	as for Scaling graphs, I don't know
[13:55]	Adam Xinpeng:	Heh yeah
[13:55]	Adam Xinpeng:	Rather off topic.
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	we have some internally
[13:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Dia Liberacion at its finest
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	but nothing well prepared, or that enlightening -- more of "oh wow - that got big"
[13:56]	Wyn Galbraith:	Zero has to wrestle code, it works.
[13:56]	Tree Kyomoon:	Tree brings up his HTTP request request again that is on zero's wiki page...
[13:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	Zero: the population got big, yes. It's the other paramaters vs the population that give the scaling
[13:57]	Wyn Galbraith is building a house like that, started out small now it's BIG!
[13:57]	JayR Cela:	I think poulation is overstated / I seldom see more than 44000 residents on~line at any one time
[13:57]	Adam Xinpeng:	SL's pretty damn huge these days - terrain size it's fairly small, but I hate to think of the number of rows in say the inventory DB.
[13:58]	Wyn Galbraith will never be able to explore it all.
[13:58]	Adam Xinpeng:	Did anyone here watch Philip's OSCON keynote?
[13:58]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'd love to see camping outlawed..... wonder how fast the login amounts would drop then
[13:58]	Saijanai Kuhn wonders if there has been much publicity in Japan. 5% is rather low for a high--tech toy given the Japanese obsession with high-tech
[13:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Since scalability is such a collosal issue, don't you think it would be a good idea for such graphs to be maintained, and visible, and directly monitored w.r.to the scalability efforts?
[13:58]	Rex Cronon:	btw, does anybody know if the viewer i using OGRE?
[13:58]	Adam Xinpeng:	No, the viewer isnt using OGRE. It's a custom engine.
[13:58]	JayR Cela:	OGRE ???? whats that ??
[13:58]	Adam Xinpeng:	It's a 3D engine
[13:59]	Wyn Galbraith:	Scary.
[13:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	You can't tell you're doing a good job on scalability unless you are monitoring the curve.
[13:59]	Adam Xinpeng:	Heh, LL is monitoring it.
[13:59]	Adam Xinpeng:	When I was at LL last august, they had walls covered with charts.
[13:59]	Zero Linden:	Adam - there are many inventory DBs - that actually has a scaling solution!
[13:59]	Adam Xinpeng:	The main "dev room" has one wall just covered in stats.
[13:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Is it secret?
[13:59]	Wyn Galbraith:	Must have big walls.
[13:59]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Meta Linden has a weekly meeting about this stuff
[13:59]	Wyn Galbraith loves Meta.
[14:00]	talma Tomsen:	!kiss chal
[14:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	there's plent of stuff o n the website about it.
[14:00]	talma gives Chaley a big kiss.
[14:00]	Adam Xinpeng:	Zero - I'm assuming you have different DBs for different user groups?
[14:00]	Tree Kyomoon:	last week it was crazy though, couldnt get a word in past porky and khamon
[14:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	You can track the importance of LIndens to SL participation, for isntance. Its quite obvious
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	re: Graphs - we maintain many many graphs - have a whole wall of 'em in the SF office - and many more online internally - but they probably
[14:00]	Rex Cronon:	not using ogre? but nimble is using it, isn't it?
[14:00]	Wyn Galbraith:	Khamon's ok.
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	aren't the kind of thing you're after, and we don't keep much history (just a few months)
[14:00]	Adam Xinpeng:	Rex: SL doenst use Nimble either. heh.
[14:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	Zero, in regards to the multiple-domain system, I saw some graphics at Periapse Linden's residence, it took what graphics you had and continued them. Who is he?
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	Adam - yes, avatars are all assigned a particular inventory DB cluster - there are like about 14 of them I think
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	sometimes we have to migrate to load ballance, but it is done non-live
[14:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Zero: nobody is chronicling it for posterity? I seem to recall that there's some of that going on for LSL by the community in a wiki.
[14:01]	Adam Xinpeng:	Makes sense, no way you could put that many rows in a single table (even with a big cluster), got to be approaching a few billion rows?
[14:02]	Wyn Galbraith:	I think Periapse works with Meta?
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	Periapse is a Project/Program/Product Manager here. He is working with my both on Studio Icehouse's projects (HetGrid), and the domain architecture
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	that i've been talking about
[14:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	Ah, I am corrected.
[14:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Zero, do you ever track LSL api use? Seems to me this would be a very important tool for predicting issues with the transition to mono and later , to a physics upgrade
[14:03]	Adam Xinpeng:	I've got to ask - why "Icehouse"?
[14:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ah... Nice graphics showing the probable continuation integrating opensim/private regions and their interactions
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	Morgaine - I don't know what the data warehousing team is doing with longer term stats.... I'd assume they have some.... but last six months is good enough for what most of us are doing
[14:03]	Wyn Galbraith needs a scorecard, "beginning to lose track of which Linden does what."
[14:03]	Adam Xinpeng:	Saijanai: I dont believe LL tracks that - would be a pretty heavy load. But I would wager the profile the whole sim.
[14:03]	Zha Ewry:	Ah, the deep technical questions, Adam?
[14:03]	Adam Xinpeng:	Hehe yeah
[14:04]	Rex Cronon:	i think u might be wrong adam, as LL has aquired nimble
[14:04]	Adam Xinpeng:	LL's aquired it but hasnt integrated it.
[14:04]	Zero Linden:	Saijanai - we don't now, there is code to do so, but given the current volumes, we'd have to do statistical sampling to get a real read....
[14:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Given all the NOPsor moreal equivalents when running LSL, I can't imagein it would be THAT heavy a load. A counter per category, at least.
[14:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well big changes are coming with Mono. I'd like to see them in the context of what went before, and that means graphs really.
[14:05]	Zero Linden:	what is more important is to keep a handle on other aspects, like amount of user HTTP traffic, or number of object e-mails
[14:05]	Rex Cronon:	isn't first view using it?
[14:05]	Zero Linden:	there are better ways to collect that than counting LSL function invocations
[14:05]	Adam Xinpeng:	Sim loads arnt too concerning to LL - since they are distributed over 3000 servers
[14:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and the ability to tell landowners: your bojects use these kinds of scripts. We predict issues with that, so be prepared...
[14:05]	Adam Xinpeng:	It's the grid loads where they cant do that that's more important.
[14:05]	JayR Cela:	SO how many things in LSL are expected to break when Mono comes on!line ??
[14:05]	Zero Linden:	"Icehouse" is the name of the alleyway in S.F. that is behind the S.F. office
[14:05]	Zero Linden:	it also happens to be the name of a game that I like....
[14:06]	Adam Xinpeng:	JayR: nothing is predicted to break - but anything that relies on sensitive timing will probably.
[14:06]	Adam Xinpeng:	Heh.
[14:06]	Wyn Galbraith:	Oh. I remember hearing that before the alley.
[14:06]	Zero Linden:	There is a long history of association between SF alleyways and SL
[14:06]	Wyn Galbraith:	Maiden Lane for example.
[14:06]	Adam Xinpeng:	Yeah, all those old sims. heh.
[14:06]	Wyn Galbraith:	Wonder why the called it that ;)
[14:06]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Marvels at the coincidence of an alley named "IBM CodeStation"
[14:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Adam: during SL4B, we experienced sim Time Dilation of 0.05 ... it was still life. Sim scalability is extremely important.
[14:07]	Adam Xinpeng:	The problem there is something else though
[14:07]	Adam Xinpeng:	That's because SL is designed to pack as much into such a tiny area as possible.
[14:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	What's the odds of getting an ampitheator archepelago ?
[14:07]	Zero Linden:	I'm sorry - what is it that you think LL has aquired?
[14:07]	Saijanai Kuhn manlges spelling creatively
[14:07]	Wyn Galbraith hates that search is broken.
[14:07]	Adam Xinpeng:	Zero: He's talking about Nimble -- the guys who made windlight also made that.
[14:08]	Rex Cronon:	yes
[14:08]	Adam Xinpeng:	It's a cloud simulator (although seperate from windlight)
[14:08]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Torley will have fun with that one...
[14:08]	Zero Linden:	ah - yes - and yes, Torley has
[14:08]	Wyn Galbraith:	Torley likes to tease us.
[14:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	They'll have to stop clouds forming sexy shapes over PG land ... ;-))))
[14:09]	Zero Linden:	yikes - well, friends, I'm really sorry about my space-out today..... I promise i'll be in world on Thursday, bright an early at 7:30am
[14:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hahaha
[14:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Hey, you can build your own windlight client so...
[14:09]	Zero Linden:	got my iPhone set to alarm
[14:09]	Adam Xinpeng:	Heh
[14:09]	Zero Linden:	he he
[14:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	show off
[14:09]	Zero Linden:	So - someone else going to put this in the wiki?
[14:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	you had to jump on the bandwagon?
[14:09]	Wyn Galbraith will fall out of bed Thursday just to attend.
[14:09]	Ming Chen gets a glass breaker and taps it on Zero's iphone in a jealous rage
[14:09]	Zero Linden:	or send me the raw transcript, and I'll format it
[14:09]	Ming Chen:	:)
[14:09]	Zero Linden:	or put the raw in and I'll format
[14:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	7:30 is just too damn early
[14:10]	Adam Xinpeng:	Alright, well I'm going to go back to burning servers.
[14:10]	Rex Cronon:	how about 10pm sl time
[14:10]	Wyn Galbraith:	It's not, as long as the laptop is near the bed. Besides I was use to getting up at 5:30am.
[14:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	hahah
[14:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ouch Wyn
[14:10]	Wyn Galbraith:	Getting up at 7am is sleeping in ;)
[14:10]	Adam Xinpeng:	I got 8,100 opensims running on a single server yesterday, I want to try get it up to 12K. Heh.
[14:10]	Tree Kyomoon:	no way, 7:30 is great for use easterners
[14:10]	Wyn Galbraith:	Makes the day longer.
[14:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	adam.. I so don't wanna see what it would be like with a load on those sims :)
[14:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	hey once stayed up and tried to attend that 5 am meeting on fridays. No-one there.
[14:11]	Wyn Galbraith:	I wish I could make Torley's 6am one.
[14:11]	Adam Xinpeng:	Kooky: heh, was eating close to 100% of 4 CPU's.
[14:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Adam, is Deepgrid related to OpenSim?
[14:11]	Rex Cronon:	i cpu, single core, and 1g ram adam?
[14:11]	Adam Xinpeng:	Morgaine: that's my test grid - it's a bit of a proof of concept thing.
[14:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aha
[14:11]	Wyn Galbraith:	Incoming, MichaelFrancis.
[14:11]	Adam Xinpeng:	People keep putting it in the opensim wiki's & stuff, but it's just running ogs and I use it for testing the grid software.
[14:12]	Wyn Galbraith loves radar.
[14:12]	Adam Xinpeng:	People using it are basically in my petri dish. Heh.
[14:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	how functional is it adam?
[14:12]	Adam Xinpeng:	Not very. Heh.
[14:13]	Kooky Jetaime:	then is there much point in having 8000 + ?
[14:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Once I get Xen or KVM up on the 8-core, I'll dedicate a guest to playing with OpenSim.
[14:13]	Adam Xinpeng:	Yeah - big terraforming experiments / builds.
[14:13]	Zero Linden:	okay - gotta run
[14:13]	Adam Xinpeng:	We've been talking about doing a ringworld today - using around 150K sims.
[14:13]	Rex Cronon:	bye zero
[14:13]	Wyn Galbraith:	Thanks Zero. Seya Thursday.
[14:13]	Adam Xinpeng:	Seeya Zero
[14:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	See you Zero
[14:13]	Kooky Jetaime:	already gone
[14:14]	Saijanai Kuhn:	oh kool tht would be wonderful. ots of strange optical effects from Ringworld. Tell Torley.
[14:14]	Saijanai Kuhn:	bye Zero...
[14:14]	Adam Xinpeng:	Well the client would bork on those
[14:14]	Tree Kyomoon:	thanks!~
[14:14]	Adam Xinpeng:	but we could make a big patch of sims that loops back on itself.
[14:14]	Adam Xinpeng:	Think 1D.
[14:14]	Wyn Galbraith:	That would be fun.
[14:14]	Adam Xinpeng:	Well a shadow of a 2D object in 1D
[14:15]	Rex Cronon:	if u fire a bullet u could shoot yourself in the back:)
[14:15]	Adam Xinpeng:	Yep that's the idea.
[14:15]	Kooky Jetaime:	he
[14:15]	Kooky Jetaime:	heh
[14:15]	Wyn Galbraith has to take a break. "LOL Rex!"
[14:15]	Adam Xinpeng:	Only problem is getting the client not to bork on it.
[14:15]	Rex Cronon:	u know wyn laughing is a good for people:)
[14:16]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Adam, have you looked at how Croquet does things?
[14:16]	Tree Kyomoon:	Amanda Silver, Lead Program Manager, speaking at the Visual Studio Island Theater, Tuesday, July 31st, 2007, 4 PM PST.
[14:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aye, clients have to be developed in parallel with worlds scaling. Rendering crowds is still a research area, but I'm sure we can crack it.
[14:16]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Who is Amdand Silver?
[14:16]	Tree Kyomoon:	Lead program manager for microsoft visual studio
[14:16]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah, should have realized that form context....
[14:17]	Wyn Galbraith:	That's today, correct?
[14:17]	Adam Xinpeng:	Heh
[14:17]	Wyn Galbraith loses track of time.
[14:17]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes
[14:17]	Tree Kyomoon:	today
[14:17]	Tree Kyomoon:	visual studio island
[14:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	What's she speaking about?
[14:17]	Chaley May:	microsoft is the sim
[14:18]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes, I think its just called Microsoft
[14:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	roflol
[14:18]	Adam Xinpeng:	What's the topic?
[14:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	So what's it about?
[14:18]	Tree Kyomoon:	I dont know, thats all I got in group notices
[14:18]	JayR Cela:	well search places is borked anyways
[14:18]	Adam Xinpeng:	Heh yeah, not an opportune day.
[14:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Certainly don't want an advertising session about visual studio, lol
[14:18]	Kooky Jetaime:	hahaha
[14:19]	Tree Kyomoon:	search in the map works
[14:19]	Kooky Jetaime:	she'll probably throw in a joke, "If this was a MS program, it would work"
[14:19]	Adam Xinpeng:	Hey, to be fair - MS has really pulled around lately.
[14:19]	Adam Xinpeng:	.NET is the greatest thing since sliced bread. heh.
[14:19]	JayR Cela:	LOL yeah righ after a few service packs
[14:19]	Kooky Jetaime:	now if only the map itself worked
[14:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	LOL, tell that to the musicians, Virtually nothing works on Vista.
[14:20]	Adam Xinpeng:	Yeah but a lot of that's just the usual post-release issues.
[14:20]	JayR Cela:	Vista the Craptastic replacement for Windows ME
[14:20]	Tree Kyomoon:	Im on vista now, and everything seems to be workign fine for me, including my recording software
[14:20]	Adam Xinpeng:	The adage still applies - avoid any OS before it's first service pack.
[14:20]	Wyn Galbraith doesn't want Vista, "Maybe it's time to switch to Linux.
[14:20]	Adam Xinpeng:	and yeah, I'm using Vista now too - it's got a lot of nice things in it.
[14:20]	Adam Xinpeng:	The UI is a lot more flexible.
[14:20]	talma Tomsen:	cmkiss
[14:20]	Tree Kyomoon:	but, its easy to criticise somethign you arent using
[14:20]	Chaley gives talma a big kiss.
[14:20]	Wyn Galbraith:	I give Windows another 10 years and it will become workstation OS only.
[14:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	I have a vista box
[14:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	it is... okay
[14:21]	Zha Ewry:	I have a complete transcript
[14:21]	JayR Cela:	hey I have a SL Client running on Ubuntu with the KDE interface and It runs circles around the WIndows SL client
[14:21]	Zha Ewry:	I will edit it and pass it to Zero
[14:21]	Adam Xinpeng:	JayR: to be fair, the Linux client doesnt support everything the windows client does.
[14:21]	Adam Xinpeng:	If you turned off those things, then I would suspect things equalise a bit.
[14:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	Jay -
[14:21]	Zha Ewry:	Since.. Zero didn't get to post the usual "what you say is in public warnign"
[14:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	heh
[14:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	exactly
[14:21]	Wyn Galbraith:	No it doesn't... not yet
[14:22]	Rex Cronon:	since when is it ok 4 an os to tell me what programs i am allowe to use?
[14:22]	Adam Xinpeng:	Rex: Vista doesnt do that.
[14:22]	Zha Ewry:	Anyone who doesn't want stuff to be posted from the 20 minutes before Zero showed, should ask me.
[14:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm on Linux. My comments about musicians were from Sound on Sound and Future Music magazines and musicians' forums in general. Every few months the mags run a "Is it time to change to Vista" article. Last issue's answer (SoS) was still emphatically "No".
[14:22]	JayR Cela:	Adam I understand that but I am useing it on an old AMD Duron 700 with a Nvidia TNT@ video card and it runs just fine thank you very much
[14:22]	JayR Cela:	and only 384 meg on main system Ram
[14:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	Rex - someone mentioned, "Vista is the first OS not designed to allow you to do something, but instead designed from the ground up to prevent you from doing things."
[14:23]	Adam Xinpeng:	Yeah, but until you have the options the same on linux and windows - comparing performance is going to befairly moot.
[14:23]	Adam Xinpeng:	Because it's apples to oranges.
[14:23]	Wyn Galbraith:	Never install a MS OS until it's a least a year old.
[14:23]	JayR Cela:	Kooky if you kill Aero it should run just fine
[14:23]	Tree Kyomoon:	I did kill most of aero, and the performance is much better
[14:23]	Adam Xinpeng:	I've left Aero on, it's shiny.
[14:23]	Zha Ewry:	That's funny, of course, because it shows a total lack of history of operating systems pre PC
[14:23]	Tree Kyomoon:	I certainly wouldnt go back to XP
[14:24]	Zha Ewry:	Most operating systems are designed to keep things from happening
[14:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	Jay - I doubt its Aero thats the issue
[14:24]	JayR Cela:	same as WIndows XP / once you turn off all the fancy visual effects and kill all the unnescary background services the XP box is very stable and quick
[14:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	Zha - really?
[14:24]	Zha Ewry:	Yes
[14:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well I kill off almost everything on XP too, it's the only way to ensure stability. My XP games box has a fixed number of processes running: 19.
[14:24]	Zha Ewry:	Look at OS/360, most of RSTS/E, or TOPS-20
[14:24]	Saijanai Kuhn:	XP has a problem because so muchh of the internet libraries are at the kernel level.
[14:25]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its hard to turn off core kernel functions...
[14:25]	Wyn Galbraith:	I have to redo my desktop, it's slowed to a crawl, then I've become spoiled on the laptop that has dual core
[14:25]	Rex Cronon:	does vista monitor what movies u r playing?
[14:25]	Zha Ewry:	Most code, in most pre-PC operating systems was a balance between resourcec management (access) and keeping users from touchign each other
[14:25]	Zha Ewry:	Its only because the PCs all had tiny little chips, and single user baked into them
[14:25]	Zha Ewry:	That we got operating systems where address space protection wasn't default
[14:26]	JayR Cela:	Sigh I wish I had my old Atari ST and Amiga still
[14:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	Zha - I don't think that they were referring to user permissions as much as the whole DRM stuff that Vista has brought to the forefront of knowledge
[14:26]	Zha Ewry:	That too
[14:26]	Zha Ewry:	Go look at RACF, and MVS
[14:26]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Nt furst programming boss helped write amigaDOS 1.0
[14:26]	Zha Ewry:	A huge slab of code all dedicated to keeping things from happening
[14:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe, I'm just in the process of throwing away my Amiga B2000 and everything else from my Amiga days.
[14:26]	Saijanai Kuhn:	my first...
[14:26]	Zha Ewry:	But.. that said, the DRM stuff
[14:26]	Tree Kyomoon:	ITunes isnt DRM???
[14:26]	Zha Ewry:	and the user permision stuff is pretty intrusive
[14:26]	Wyn Galbraith will switch to Linux before going to Vista.
[14:27]	Tree Kyomoon:	its the ultimate DRM
[14:27]	Saijanai Kuhn:	lightning strike made me jump (yeah thats why all my typing is bad)
[14:27]	Wyn Galbraith:	Unless I get a job where I have to test on Vista.
[14:27]	Adam Xinpeng:	UAC only occurs when an application is badly written.
[14:27]	Rex Cronon:	i heard quite a few "interesting" things about vista, and i haven't seen microsft, saying what is true, and what is false
[14:27]	Adam Xinpeng:	The problems with UAC constant prompting are a lot of old applications assuming the user is an administrator and doing filesystem writes everywhere.
[14:27]	JayR Cela:	well windows 7 is slated to be released in 2010
[14:28]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that would be the same timeframe for Mac OS XI
[14:28]	JayR Cela:	that is if its not delayed
[14:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	I heard that Vista was the last version of windows in its "current form"
[14:28]	Adam Xinpeng:	That's probably about right.
[14:28]	JayR Cela:	and we all know MS track record
[14:28]	Wyn Galbraith:	That's a good thing.
[14:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	after this its going to go more "serivce style" I Think
[14:28]	Tree Kyomoon:	its going to a "surface" UI next isnt it?
[14:28]	Adam Xinpeng:	Computing as a service is beggining to make sense with lots of broadband propagation.
[14:28]	Wyn Galbraith:	It's going to go away, mark my words.
[14:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep. You'll buy your machine, but it won't be yours.
[14:29]	Adam Xinpeng:	SL is a good example - thin client / software as a service.
[14:29]	Wyn Galbraith:	Opensource will grow.
[14:29]	JayR Cela:	Hmm Network World reported last week that MS is really going after the service on demand archeticture in a big way
[14:29]	Adam Xinpeng:	SL does a suprising amount on the server - it even does some primitive occlusion culling for the client, on the server.
[14:29]	Rex Cronon:	i don't think will go away, might become the OS of choice, of corporate users
[14:29]	Wyn Galbraith shrugs, "I've seen PCs come to life, and I'll most likely see them as we know them now, go away.
[14:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Adam: I din't know that, interesting. Is there more info on that somewhere?
[14:30]	Wyn Galbraith:	They also said UNIX would die, look at what Linux is doing. It's now the server software of choice.
[14:30]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes Adam, Id like to read about that too
[14:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	I so love linux
[14:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	for some things
[14:30]	Adam Xinpeng:	Morgaine: not really - but there's a few other opensim devs here and between us we know the backend fairly well. Heh.
[14:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Excellent
[14:30]	Adam Xinpeng:	But basically the SL client is very thin.
[14:31]	Adam Xinpeng:	The server is expected to do nearly everything.
[14:31]	Wyn Galbraith always loved UNIX, "Panic traps, daemons and 666 and all.
[14:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	hahaha
[14:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	Kernel Panic
[14:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	whoo ho
[14:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	God, no wonder the scalability is so bad. Only clients scale with population.
[14:31]	Adam Xinpeng:	Yep.
[14:31]	JayR Cela:	on windows XP the SL client footprint is about 250 to 350 meg ram usually provideing there are minimal memory leaks
[14:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	hahaha
[14:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kooky: bring back Guru Mediations! :-)
[14:32]	Wyn Galbraith idles afk.
[14:32]	Adam Xinpeng:	Morgaine: we've come up with a few accidental workarounds.
[14:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm at 722Megs right now
[14:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe, accidental
[14:32]	Zero Linden decline Sirena Hair Weekly Release - Jul 31 from A group member named Natalia Zelmanov.
[14:32]	Adam Xinpeng:	Like, not supporting serverside occlusion - and just spitting everything at the client (saves CPU, worsens network traffic)
[14:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	Guru Meditations?
[14:32]	JayR Cela:	hmm Kooky have you tried Nicholaz SL client