User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jun 28

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[7:38]	Zero Linden:	Y
[7:38]	Zero Linden:	sorry I'm late, all
[7:38]	Tao Takashi:	HI Zero
[7:38]	Benja Kepler:	hi
[7:39]	Tao Takashi:	np :)
[7:39]	Zha Ewry:	Morning Zero
[7:39]	Zero Linden:	Smaller turn out than last time - 'suppose we burned folks out!
[7:39]	Benja Kepler:	Can I ask a question about the SL viewer and video cards supported?
[7:39]	Zero Linden:	Also, Summer I suppose
[7:39]	Zero Linden:	First,
[7:39]	Zha Ewry:	Early for the left coast folks like you, too. This one always runs smaller
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	obligatory statement: I put the transcript in the wiki --- speak openly
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	Benja, you can ask, but I can't say I know much about that
[7:40]	Benja Kepler:	Does Linden Lab test all the video cards mentioned in the 'Minimum System Requirements' before an upgrade to the viewer?
[7:40]	Tree Kyomoon:	hello folks
[7:40]	Wyn Galbraith:	Morning Tree, Zero.
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	We have a collection we test with in house, and I know that we use an external testing group for a much larger set
[7:41]	Zero Linden:	I'll be honest that I don't know if we use them for each and every release
[7:41]	Benja Kepler:	I ask this because bug VWR-1217 (jerky head movements) is fixed, and it works on my nVidia machine but not on my ATI computer.
[7:41]	Zero Linden:	But since we don't change the rendering engine in each release, I'd bet not
[7:41]	Tao Takashi:	the question is maybe if every single bug is QAd with all graphics card
[7:41]	Benja Kepler:	ok, thanks
[7:41]	Tree Kyomoon:	zero before I forget, I wanted to mention I was at a speech by Lawrence LInden on the history of the LIndex, and he was quite flattering of you and your contribution to SL.
[7:41]	Tao Takashi:	and I guess not ;-)
[7:41]	Zero Linden:	Tao - the answer to that is certainly no
[7:42]	Zero Linden:	Oh, nice to know
[7:42]	Rex Cronon:	good morning everybody
[7:42]	Wyn Galbraith:	Time to ask for a raise ;)
[7:42]	Wyn Galbraith:	Morning Rex
[7:42]	Tao Takashi:	or two ;-)
[7:42]	Zero Linden:	Hmmm.... Cory's right behind me in the office - I'll suppose I could do that....
[7:42]	Tree Kyomoon:	he is at millionsofus now, and there were only two of us in the audience
[7:42]	Tree Kyomoon:	if anyone wants the transcript I have it
[7:43]	Wyn Galbraith:	I wish I had known about that meeting.
[7:43]	Tao Takashi:	me too
[7:43]	Wyn Galbraith would like it.
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	It was part of the SL4 history stuff, right?
[7:43]	Tree Kyomoon:	it was awesome to hear about the history of the lindex
[7:43]	Tao Takashi:	then again I think I do too many meetings in here already ;-)
[7:43]	Tao Takashi:	if you have the transcript I'd be happy to get a copy :)
[7:43]	Tree Kyomoon:	sure Let me get it into a notecard
[7:43]	Wyn Galbraith had a hard time getting to the core of the SL birthday party.
[7:43]	Tree Kyomoon:	and I'll start dropping
[7:44]	Tao Takashi:	you can also email it to me if that is easier
[7:44]	Tao Takashi:	tao.takashi@gmail.com
[7:44]	Wyn Galbraith:	Me too, wyngalbraith@earthlink.net
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	I wonder if Laurance would object to it being in the public wiki
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	seems like a good place for it
[7:45]	Tao Takashi:	or in the history wiki
[7:45]	Wyn Galbraith:	Oh absolutely.
[7:45]	Wyn Galbraith:	What is the max for people in a sim?
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	It is settable by an estate manager
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	I believe we set the mainland all at 40
[7:46]	Tao Takashi:	depends if you want people still to move ;-)
[7:46]	Wyn Galbraith:	The core of the SL BD was 40.
[7:46]	Harleen Gretzky:	100 is the max you can set it too
[7:46]	Zero Linden:	There are two constraints on it - one, and most constraining, is how many we can render
[7:46]	Tao Takashi:	btw, there is no way to e.g. "register" some free slots for e.g. a speaker?
[7:46]	Tao Takashi:	like if I do an event and the speaker crashs that seems to be a problem
[7:47]	Zero Linden:	If I turn off character rendering here - I get 28FPS
[7:47]	Wyn Galbraith:	Good idea Tao.
[7:47]	Zero Linden:	with it on, 15FPS
[7:47]	Tao Takashi:	so you know where to improve, Zero ;-)
[7:47]	Tao Takashi:	why do they take that much FPS?
[7:47]	Zha Ewry:	I park and alt or two.. up at 700, to be able to pop them off to let speakers back in when running events
[7:47]	Zero Linden:	so to render 8 AVs takes almost 1/2 the graphics engine
[7:47]	Tao Takashi:	Zha: I just need to be faster than the others who want to get in
[7:47]	Tao Takashi:	so the only way seems to make a group with invites
[7:48]	Tao Takashi:	but it would be nice to have a list of avatars always allowed
[7:48]	Tao Takashi:	if it's not >100
[7:48]	Zha Ewry:	Yes, tho, who gets kicked, would be fun... or... hold slots free
[7:48]	Tao Takashi:	like the filesystem reserve :)
[7:48]	Benja Kepler:	and does the prims attached to an avatar affect the sim too?
[7:48]	Wyn Galbraith has to make her alt make new groups cause she's out.
[7:48]	Zero Linden:	well - AV rendering is much more complicated than the rest of the objects- and it is an important part of making SL feel immersive
[7:48]	Zero Linden:	Benja - well, not the prims per se....
[7:49]	Zero Linden:	of course they increase rendering load.... but not more than other prims
[7:49]	Zero Linden:	the problem tends to be that
[7:49]	Wyn Galbraith:	Speak of crashes and lose Tao.
[7:49]	Zero Linden:	a) attachments often have scripts that are CPU intensive (always on)
[7:49]	Tao Takashi:	I want the teleport home keystroke disabled, please ;-)
[7:49]	Zero Linden:	b) since there is little restriction - people don't think twice about having very prim intensive attachements
[7:50]	Zero Linden:	at least not hte same way they think about prim intensive objects
[7:50]	Zero Linden:	Tao - edit the XML files.
[7:50]	Benja Kepler:	yes, high heels and prim skirts must have a lot of prims
[7:50]	Tao Takashi:	I guess I need to do that with every release? :)
[7:50]	Rex Cronon:	u forget about hair
[7:50]	Zero Linden:	I noticed that the shoes my Alt wears have 68 prims apiece!
[7:50]	Benja Kepler:	yes! hair too
[7:51]	Tao Takashi:	it might be nice to have some sort of metric for each avatar so I can look at how "Bad" I am and maybe adjust
[7:51]	Tao Takashi:	most likely "remove" ;-)
[7:51]	Tree Kyomoon gave you history of the lindex by Lawrence Linden/Peter Millionsofus.
[7:51]	Benja Kepler:	how do you count the prims on an av Tao?
[7:51]	Tao Takashi:	thanks, Tree
[7:51]	Rex Cronon:	with sculpts would be possible to have shoes of ony 1 prim, if the image wasn't compress that is:(
[7:51]	Tao Takashi:	some sort of metric can also be some lag factor however it's generated.. I know it's not easy to come up with a good metric I suppose
[7:52]	Harleen Gretzky:	In estate tools, if the avatar is sitting on something the script time is reflected in that object for the avatar and all it's attachments
[7:52]	Rex Cronon:	thanks tree
[7:52]	Tao Takashi:	but right now lag is more a blurry thing than one with facts I think
[7:52]	Wyn Galbraith:	Thanks Tree.
[7:52]	Zero Linden:	Yes - that is indeed the problem - capturing "lag" into a single number that people can use to judge is, well, totally unclear how to do
[7:52]	Tree Kyomoon:	..catching up on conversation history...
[7:52]	Tao Takashi:	so everybody has their own assumption about what causes lag
[7:52]	Zha Ewry nods "I am often surprised, how unpreictabel lag is"
[7:52]	Tao Takashi:	somebody should do a master thesis on that ;_)
[7:53]	Tao Takashi:	instead of researching how SL affects companies etc.
[7:53]	Zero Linden:	I'd give 'em a PhD.
[7:53]	Tao Takashi:	so you cannot say how much rendering time each av takes?
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	So - the sad news, I'm sure you've all seen, is that the dia de la liberactión is delayed
[7:54]	Tao Takashi:	of course it depends on the machine but it should be at least relative to each other
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	Tao - it changes even as you move your camera around teh AV
[7:54]	Zha Ewry nods sadly.. and you decied not to do a major update on the 4th? :-)
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	there is no single number
[7:54]	Tao Takashi:	yes, we've seen
[7:54]	Tao Takashi:	ah, right, too bad
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	Zha - exactly
[7:54]	Benja Kepler:	oh, you wanted fireworks on the 4th July?
[7:54]	Zha Ewry:	In spite of the imagery :-)
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	There were two problems in the final merged candidate for 1.18 - neither seems to be message liberation specific,
[7:55]	Tao Takashi:	now they do it friday ;-)
[7:55]	Rex Cronon:	the revolution got delayed due to lag:)
[7:55]	Zero Linden:	but we aren't sure if it was just merge fu - or some bad interaction between some small fixes and the larger mesage liberation code
[7:55]	Zero Linden:	no no - never a Friday release
[7:55]	Zero Linden:	I don't want my weekends - or all of your weekends - clobbered
[7:55]	Tao Takashi:	well, better to hold it off to be sure instead of saying "YAY, we have liberation" (which only few people understand anyway) and then everything is unstable
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	In this case, it was only e-mail to objects, and the dreaded friends list
[7:56]	Wyn Galbraith:	Thanks Zero :D
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	the later *seems* worse in the 1.18 tree - though by *worse* I mean we ahve 100% repro. case now
[7:56]	Zha Ewry:	Oh. Ick. Friends is really unpopular
[7:57]	Tao Takashi:	just remove the friends feature ;-)
[7:57]	Zero Linden:	which is great - since we are geeting some deeeeeeeep debuging on what is going on when the freinds list fails
[7:57]	Zha Ewry:	Breaking friends messes with the social fabric, and ticks people off
[7:57]	Tree Kyomoon:	I have a question about cookies in a recent release...did it end up happening?
[7:57]	Tao Takashi:	ah, repro is good
[7:57]	Benja Kepler:	people get hurt when the friends list goes awry - paranoia is a key feature in SL
[7:57]	Zero Linden:	Indeed - if we got rid of friends, then SL would be more like VRML - a nice aseptic world where no other people interrupte your solitude
[7:57]	Tao Takashi:	only random people ;-)
[7:58]	Zero Linden:	Tree- cookies?
[7:58]	Tao Takashi:	somebody might write an external friends application ;-)
[7:58]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes browser
[7:58]	Zha Ewry:	And.. people you skype to tell where you are
[7:58]	Wyn Galbraith notes that random people do that now.
[7:58]	Zero Linden:	Oh - was the built in browser now supposed to support cookies? I don't know about that
[7:58]	Zha Ewry:	Tho, at that point the answer my read "Darnassus, trainging up my druid"
[7:58]	Tree Kyomoon:	thought it was...but my experiments so far are not yielding positive results
[7:58]	Tao Takashi misses cookies at office hours anyway
[7:59]	Tree Kyomoon:	unable to keep autheticatino
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	I'm sorry, how rude of me
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	Sushi?
[7:59]	Tree Kyomoon:	lol yummy
[7:59]	Tao Takashi:	oh, thanks :)
[7:59]	Tree Kyomoon:	im on a diet :)
[7:59]	Tao Takashi will build cookies for the next office hour :)
[7:59]	Zero Linden rezs suschi
[7:59]	Wyn Galbraith:	Yes! Yusan's in East Bay is the best. Created the California Roll he did.
[8:01]	Zero Linden:	Well - answer me this, if you had some form of external IM connection to SL - what form would it take?
[8:01]	Benja Kepler:	sms text messaging would be so useful
[8:01]	Tao Takashi:	so what does day of liberation mean for libsl or similar apps (e.g. for my start of a python port). Can I get rid of that UDP stuff and just use HTTP then? as I haven't started yet on the networking code but only on the template building stuff that migth be handy
[8:01]	Tree Kyomoon:	GAIM or "Pidgeon" ...something universal
[8:01]	Zero Linden:	Tao - no, sigh, libsl will have support UDP for quite a long time
[8:01]	Tao Takashi:	and I did not get the hash stuff to work actually
[8:02]	Zha Ewry:	Link it to one of the popular clients, so I can blip people with a "Gonna be 15 minutes late to the meeting" from outside.. and my cell phone. Want to be able to have my sell phone text a quick "Late" message
[8:02]	Zero Linden:	BUT - the message numbering and packing changed
[8:02]	Tao Takashi:	too bad, I was hoping I could continue with it :)
[8:02]	Zero Linden:	to something that doesn't change all the time
[8:02]	Tao Takashi:	as I did not really understand the hashing stuff there
[8:02]	Zero Linden:	ordering now matches the template
[8:02]	Tao Takashi:	and I did not yield the same results as libsl or SL
[8:02]	Wyn Galbraith:	I get AIM on my cell phone. That would be handy.
[8:02]	Tao Takashi:	ah, so I don't need it anymore?
[8:02]	Zero Linden:	Tao - I don't think ANYONE understood the hashing stuff there
[8:03]	Zero Linden:	right - things are now packed in order of the template - and the message numbers are specified in the template and cannot change
[8:03]	Tao Takashi:	so it will be the networking code I should have a look at and all the retry etc. stuff
[8:03]	Tree Kyomoon:	would be great if you could chat with your SL friends outside of SL and chat with your non SL freinds inside SL
[8:03]	Tao Takashi:	that sounds good, Zero
[8:03]	Tao Takashi:	should I have some time maybe I will keep working on it
[8:04]	Tao Takashi:	but I guess I have to implement the XML stuff then, too
[8:04]	Tao Takashi:	(which shouldn't be as problematic as the UDP stuff)
[8:04]	Zero Linden:	Tree - does that mean chat to AIM from SL, for example? What would you expect your name on AIM to be? A special account on AIM you create for your SL identity, or would you want it bridged to your "real" AIM, or just appear on AIM as your SL identity?
[8:04]	Benja Kepler:	it would have to be the SL identity
[8:04]	Zero Linden:	Tao - no the LLSD path for messages is very easy
[8:04]	Tao Takashi:	wasn't Jabber discussed at some point?
[8:04]	Wyn Galbraith:	That sounds good Zero..
[8:04]	Zero Linden:	Tao - in the abstract, not like we have a project to do it
[8:04]	Tree Kyomoon:	bridged, so SL would be another separate account like your AIM or iChat or whatever
[8:04]	Benja Kepler:	and for real Friends, you wouldn't object to paying for such a link
[8:05]	Tree Kyomoon:	I have them all in Pidgeon anyway
[8:05]	Zha Ewry:	Has to map to SL.. Could bridge.. but I don't pass my RL name to people easily
[8:05]	Wyn Galbraith:	Most of my non-SL friends know about my SL name.
[8:05]	Tao Takashi:	with plugins it would be easy to just have an AIM plugin ;-)
[8:05]	Zha Ewry:	Its not transiitive tho
[8:05]	Zha Ewry:	RL friends know my SL name.. but not always the other way around
[8:05]	Tao Takashi:	but I understand that plugins are not the way to go right now
[8:05]	Rex Cronon:	how about a nice little applet that would allow people to connect to sl from their cell, no 3d rendering though?
[8:05]	Wyn Galbraith:	Doesn't have to be AIM, personally I use Trillian and have a lot of IMs.
[8:05]	Tao Takashi:	I have a problem with my many names now anyway, thanks to SL
[8:05]	Benja Kepler:	especially when transatlantic friendships mean timezone problems to logging in to SL
[8:06]	Tao Takashi:	wish I had a free choice of name
[8:06]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes, I would prefer to use my RL name in SL
[8:06]	Tree Kyomoon:	wish I could
[8:06]	Tao Takashi:	well, now it's too late for me anyway ;-)
[8:06]	Zero Linden:	Seems that people in general, both dislike having so many acount identities, and yet get along with all just fine
[8:06]	Tao Takashi:	Tao sort of became some sort of brand
[8:06]	Benja Kepler:	perhaps a 'will' feature could be added so your SL could die and bequeathe its inventory to an alt
[8:07]	Tao Takashi:	well, I need to get along with it or give up something
[8:07]	Tao Takashi:	but I now have 3 business cards ;-)
[8:07]	Zero Linden:	Benja - now THERE'S a novel idea!
[8:07]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes benja
[8:07]	Zha Ewry:	I think it depends on the way you approach your SL identity. Some people are extentionalists. Just an extension of thier RL self
[8:07]	Tao Takashi:	this was discussed at Robin's hour once I think
[8:07]	Tao Takashi:	or something similar
[8:07]	Tao Takashi:	well, if name choosing would be open then everybody could decide what to do
[8:07]	Zha Ewry:	Otheres, are roleplaying immmersives.. and everytrhing in between. That impacts, dramatically, how peopel think abotu names
[8:08]	Zero Linden:	Realize that there is quite a movement in internet development circles around internet identity
[8:08]	Zero Linden:	Alas, there are several semi-compeating, semi-cooperating standards, which make things VERY confusing
[8:08]	Tao Takashi:	and if that interview with Philip in the german magazine is true then we will get identity verification from the beginning anyway
[8:08]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes, zero, your internet identity is rapidly overtaking your real one in very tangible ways
[8:08]	Rex Cronon:	alond with identity comes identity theft:(
[8:08]	Zha Ewry:	And.. It would still be odd.. because. you'd get the same effects, when people chose, and... you'd get to police the stuff ever so much more Now, at least, LL
[8:09]	Zero Linden:	The good news, is that those standards are all very aware of the need to let people be in control of what they release to whom
[8:09]	Zha Ewry:	has some assurances that they won't be getting *too* much name snagging
[8:09]	Zero Linden:	So that plays well with our philosophy of how we think about identity
[8:09]	Harleen Gretzky:	Cost money, but LL we give you your RL name in SL if you request it
[8:09]	Tao Takashi:	yes, but the money thing is a hurdle
[8:09]	Tree Kyomoon:	so why the resistance to allowing people to choose their own names?
[8:09]	Tao Takashi:	and I am not sure it's a business model which makes LL rich
[8:10]	Tao Takashi:	all of that is not really a technical issue anyway ;-)
[8:10]	Rex Cronon:	in rl there are quite a few people that have the same name
[8:10]	Zero Linden:	There are quite a number of forces in the issues around name selection. As an engineer, I won't pretend to understand them or to have
[8:10]	Tao Takashi:	actually only in SL ;-)
[8:10]	Zero Linden:	seen the balance among them.... That would be more of a discssion for Robin's or Daniel's office hours
[8:11]	Tao Takashi:	every other application I know lets me choose my name
[8:11]	Tree Kyomoon:	...so its not a technical issue, such as database limitation
[8:11]	Zero Linden:	Tree - actually, short term it is - your last name is an integer ID into the last name table
[8:11]	Tao Takashi:	and now I am Tao Takashi on face book and my Plone friends ask me "why the funny name"
[8:11]	Tao Takashi:	(if they recognize me)
[8:11]	Zero Linden:	so adding arbitrary last names puts more strain on the system....
[8:11]	Tao Takashi:	is there a reason toi have it a separate table?
[8:12]	Tao Takashi:	except history
[8:12]	Benja Kepler:	I think there are 4000 ish last names at the moment
[8:12]	Tree Kyomoon:	but even 1 million names is only 1MB
[8:12]	Tao Takashi:	is there something else joined with that table?
[8:12]	Benja Kepler:	BTW how does Moopf Murray get his avatar key list?
[8:12]	Zero Linden:	But here's the thing - while every web site in creation lets you choose a "handle" - usually one word, not two -
[8:12]	Zero Linden:	sometimes the one you want isn't available
[8:12]	Zero Linden:	or they force them to be in the form of an e-mail address
[8:12]	Zero Linden:	or they don't have the same case rules
[8:13]	Zero Linden:	or special cahracter rules etc.....
[8:13]	Tao Takashi:	in SL I first need to think about a good name combination though because I don't find most of the last names very compelling
[8:13]	Wyn Galbraith is fortunate that her usual 'handle' isn't a usual one.
[8:13]	Tree Kyomoon:	right...so a last name is a way to keep names unique...
[8:13]	Tao Takashi:	and honestly I'd also like to have people with the same name in SL like in RL
[8:13]	Zero Linden:	And so, these are, while visually similar or the same, really different identities
[8:13]	Tao Takashi:	maybe distinguished by a login handle
[8:13]	Tree Kyomoon:	would be cool then, if I could just display my last name integer rather than the word
[8:13]	Tao Takashi:	of course it has issues
[8:13]	Tree Kyomoon:	if I wanted
[8:14]	Zero Linden:	Identity, in the internet sense, means being about to use the *same* identity in a multitude of places
[8:14]	Zero Linden:	or to have several, linked identities, using which one you want in a given circumstance
[8:14]	Zha Ewry nods at the latter suggestion
[8:14]	Zero Linden:	So the whole "my RL's know my SL, but my SL's don't kno wmy RL" thing
[8:14]	Tree Kyomoon:	identity is extremely important and valuable, it needs to be formost ... thats why facebook and myspace do so well
[8:14]	Zero Linden:	is only getting more complicated!
[8:15]	Tree Kyomoon:	people should be able to have one identity/brand across all platforms if they want
[8:15]	Zero Linden:	So - we are looking at these technical issues
[8:15]	Zero Linden:	would it be useful to be able to leave a comment on a wordpress blog from your SL identity?
[8:16]	Tao Takashi:	depends on the blog ;_)
[8:16]	Tao Takashi:	as I said I now have many identities unfortunately
[8:16]	Tao Takashi:	so on german blogs I sign with MrTopf and on SL blogs with Tao Takashi
[8:16]	Wyn Galbraith:	I do too, though most have a root to my original gaming/onine name.
[8:17]	Tao Takashi:	and unfortunately many web2.0 apps don't have an SL name field yet
[8:17]	Tao Takashi:	so people get confused
[8:17]	Wyn Galbraith:	*online
[8:17]	Benja Kepler:	being logged into your own wordpress blog impacts on the LL blog - unless you log out - I had a comment held awaiting moderation because I changed my own blog profile
[8:17]	Tao Takashi:	yes, the login on wordpress is also annoying.. also have to log out to change it
[8:17]	Zero Linden:	Well, one might - I have several - the name I use in personal connections (like when I edit Sensei's Library wiki) - the name you all know me as - which I use for business
[8:18]	Tao Takashi:	I'd actually like to have some sort of central service which defines my nicknames and (more important) my friends in all my networks
[8:18]	Tao Takashi:	like adding all the friends again and again is annoying
[8:18]	Wyn Galbraith:	Sounds like a new online business ;)
[8:18]	Benja Kepler:	I use a virtual PC for logins to Benja-related blogs and email
[8:18]	Zero Linden:	well, that is exactly the sort of things these internet identity systems are reaching for
[8:18]	Zero Linden:	see, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID
[8:19]	Tao Takashi:	but not my friends I think
[8:19]	Tao Takashi:	like on facebook I had to add 40 people or so.. which is a bit annoying ;-)
[8:19]	Tao Takashi:	all the new apps every day are annoying anyway ;-)
[8:19]	Tao Takashi:	and soon we will have a virtual world every day I suppose
[8:19]	Benja Kepler:	the mozilla browser in the sl viewer: is it just for the profile web page? or is there more ?
[8:19]	Tao Takashi:	which adds avatar customization to the task list
[8:20]	Tree Kyomoon:	I believe all the http functionality in the client runs through the mozilla browser
[8:20]	Tao Takashi:	so will SL get openid support? :)
[8:20]	Zero Linden:	Tree - it does not
[8:21]	Benja Kepler:	llHttpRequest?
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	Mozilla in the browser is sort of building block
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	right now we use it for: The login screen, the profile pages, help, and release notes
[8:21]	Benja Kepler:	oh yes! and the LSL wiki help which is VERY USEFUL
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	HTTP client operations in the viewer are handled by libcurl
[8:22]	Zero Linden:	HTTP client operations in the simulator are also done by libcurl
[8:22]	Harleen Gretzky:	Gwyneth Llewelyn and SignpostMarv Martin have started http://SLOpenID.net
[8:22]	Zero Linden:	HTTP server operations are done by our own, C++ web server framework
[8:22]	Zero Linden:	llHTTPRequest is an LSL call that runs in the simulator, and uses libcurl todo the work
[8:23]	Benja Kepler:	how about email, is that a daemon in the sim?
[8:24]	Tree Kyomoon:	ahh
[8:24]	Tree Kyomoon:	so if the mozilla browser supports cookies, that doesnt mean libcurl does
[8:24]	Zero Linden:	email out is just - postfix
[8:24]	Tao Takashi:	with libcurl you'd need to handle it yourself I guess
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	email in, comes into a postfix server and then gets sent off to a "mailglue" script that injects the mail directly to the simulator where the object no resides
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	Tree - libcurl does support cookies - but we don't enable it
[8:26]	Zero Linden:	I don't think mozilla is using libcurl to be an HTTP client, mind you
[8:26]	Zero Linden:	so I think those or totally separate issues
[8:26]	Tree Kyomoon:	right so I need you to allow it
[8:26]	Tree Kyomoon:	but you wont?
[8:27]	Zero Linden:	well - cookies are to be kept together for one user agent
[8:27]	Zero Linden:	but in the simulator - what constitutes a user?
[8:27]	Zero Linden:	should each script have it's own cookies?
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	each prim?
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	each linkset?
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	each user per region?
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	each user grid wide?
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	each parcel?
[8:28]	Tree Kyomoon:	those sound like parameters of a method
[8:28]	Tree Kyomoon:	let the scripter decide :)
[8:28]	Rex Cronon:	each key
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	Well - "all of the above" is the least desirable answer!
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	Rex - key?
[8:28]	Tree Kyomoon:	makes sense to attach them to the response key
[8:29]	Rex Cronon:	uuid
[8:29]	Tree Kyomoon:	which would be script specific
[8:29]	Sridhar Shepherd:	hi all
[8:29]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[8:29]	Sridhar Shepherd:	what'is the topic
[8:29]	Zero Linden:	No, it doesn't - each individual request is a key - cookies are only useful if you replay them on subsquence request - unless you are trying to pawn all cookie managment off on the LSL scripts themselves
[8:29]	Tree Kyomoon:	right
[8:30]	Zero Linden:	Sridhar - not topic for this session
[8:30]	Tree Kyomoon:	so per object mabey makes more sense?
[8:30]	Rex Cronon:	i guess only scripted objects
[8:30]	Benja Kepler:	so the cookies in the sl viewer are just for state management?
[8:30]	Zha Ewry:	You don't want to manage cookies in LSL if you can avoid it
[8:30]	Zero Linden:	Well - you can see where the problems start to multiple with cookies - how much cookie storae should we allow? etc... etc....
[8:30]	Tree Kyomoon:	thiking in terms of making a "login" object that allows folks to come to a sim and log into an external app and interact with it while in proximity of that object
[8:31]	Zero Linden:	There are no cookies in the SL viewer - other than what mozilla does
[8:31]	Zero Linden:	but there, that is viewer side, and so it is for the viewer as a whole
[8:31]	Zero Linden:	thogh I don't know how or if we handle different users using the same viewer and cookies in mozilla
[8:31]	Tree Kyomoon:	well you cache objects right?
[8:31]	Tree Kyomoon:	and textures...so why not cookies?
[8:32]	Benja Kepler:	yes, why a separate Clear Cookies button, when Cache can be reset?
[8:32]	Zero Linden:	Again - are we talking viewer cookie caching? or server side via llHTTPRequest
[8:32]	Tree Kyomoon:	cookies generally would only need to persist for a typical session length, a few hours at most
[8:33]	Zero Linden:	viewer side - sure, the built in mozilla should cache cookies
[8:33]	Tree Kyomoon:	probably viewer side
[8:33]	Zero Linden:	server side - much harder problem as the resources could be considerable
[8:33]	Tree Kyomoon:	like a web browser works
[8:33]	Tree Kyomoon:	definitely client side
[8:33]	Benja Kepler:	the viewer has a clear cookie option, why put it in ? are they written to disk in a separate area to the cache?
[8:34]	Zero Linden:	ah yes - I see it now
[8:34]	Tree Kyomoon:	sorry to be a pain about this but its a huge issue for me
[8:34]	Zero Linden:	it is a separate thing as the mozilla framework manages all of it's own caching - including cookies, totally apart from the rest of the viewer
[8:35]	Zero Linden:	Tree - so seems to me that the mozilla browser in the viewer DOES support cookies
[8:35]	Tree Kyomoon:	but how do I get to the mozilla browser via httprequest?
[8:35]	Tree Kyomoon:	can I run requests through it vs libcurl
[8:35]	Zero Linden:	you can't - when you call llHTTPRequest you are asking the simulator to make a request on your behalf, not the viewer
[8:35]	Rex Cronon:	so could scripts hava access to that?
[8:36]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so still not sure when the Mozillz framework is evoked
[8:36]	Zero Linden:	So - cookies on the sim are a totally different matter- since, as Zha pointed out, you really don't want ot do cookie management in LSL
[8:36]	Tree Kyomoon:	hmm so could I change that and make the request via mozilla somehow?
[8:36]	Zero Linden:	and, attaching cookie state per object would be a considerable burden in memory
[8:36]	Tree Kyomoon:	you would have to implement some client only http request method
[8:36]	Zero Linden:	I dont see llHTTPRequest supporting cookies anytime soon
[8:37]	Zero Linden:	Tree - no there is no mozilla in the server
[8:37]	Tree Kyomoon:	I know
[8:37]	Tree Kyomoon:	Im talking making the mozilla in the client accessible via script
[8:37]	Zero Linden:	there has been talk about a llHTTPViewerRequest that makes the request come from an agent's viewer - but that has giant security implications
[8:37]	Zero Linden:	and would be very compilcated system
[8:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	when IS it accessable BTW?
[8:37]	Zero Linden:	AH
[8:38]	Zero Linden:	you want llLoadURLintoViewerMozilla
[8:38]	Zero Linden:	or some such
[8:38]	Zero Linden:	AHA
[8:38]	Zero Linden:	THAT is something I think we should do ... but I don't know if anyone has picked it up and put it on their plate
[8:38]	Benja Kepler:	any news on the 'web page on a prim'?
[8:38]	Tree Kyomoon:	sounds interesting
[8:39]	Zero Linden:	I wonder - would just having the blue box that appears when you use llLoadURL() give the user two options: open in viewer, open in browser, be enough?
[8:39]	Tree Kyomoon:	should I add that to jira or ?
[8:39]	Zero Linden:	yes
[8:39]	Zero Linden:	and, as always, please try to be clear about the use case
[8:39]	Zero Linden:	(i know, i know, my pet peeve)
[8:40]	Tree Kyomoon:	absolutely
[8:40]	Saijanai Kuhn:	2 options with a check box for "don't ask me again"
[8:40]	Benja Kepler:	open in viewer would be great - keeps it in SL - otherwise why not just google outside of sl?
[8:40]	Zero Linden:	Someone put that into the public JIRA as well!
[8:40]	Tree Kyomoon:	the thing for me is, I dont want to open it, I just want to send messages back and forth
[8:40]	Tree Kyomoon:	to a url
[8:41]	Zero Linden:	Benja - realize that these URLs could include things like aganet name or key - and so, by doing this, you can link SL to the web more closely
[8:41]	Zero Linden:	Tree - that the harder case because of the security issues
[8:41]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes :)
[8:41]	Zero Linden:	so - all good
[8:41]	Benja Kepler:	yes, I wrote a blogging script - taht used email to blog
[8:41]	Zero Linden:	okay friends, an hour has flow by....
[8:42]	Wyn Galbraith:	Wow already, I'm hungry for sushi now too.
[8:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	someone pointed out that webpage on a prim would allow people to correlate avatars with ips addresses
[8:42]	Zero Linden:	until next time.....
[8:42]	Benja Kepler:	ok, thanks Zero - very interesting
[8:42]	Zero Linden:	thanks all for coming
[8:42]	Rex Cronon:	bye zero
[8:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	take care
[8:42]	Tree Kyomoon:	thanks for being here zero
[8:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and hello all
[8:42]	Wyn Galbraith:	Thanks for the meeting Zero, have a great day.