User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Mar 08

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[7:39]	Tao Takashi:	Hi Zero
[7:39]	Helena Lycia:	Hiya Zero
[7:40]	Vitis Obviate:	Heya Zero
[7:40]	Tao Takashi:	yeah, if you don't have it switched on it might be strange in a crowd of people having it on
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	Hello all
[7:40]	Tao Takashi:	need to check this out soon :)
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	Sorry I'm a bit late....
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	couldn't figure out why I couldn't log in......
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	...turns out I forgot to plug my ethernet cable in!
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	D'oh!
[7:40]	Drewan Keats:	I would submit it as a bug :)
[7:41]	Zero Linden:	Oh, I escalated ... had Philip working on it!
[7:41]	Tao Takashi:	why do you unplug your ethernet cable? ;-)
[7:41]	Khamon Fate:	they have second life over ethernet now
[7:41]	Tao Takashi:	SLoIP :)
[7:42]	Zero Linden:	It's a lap top - and I just got into S.F.
[7:42]	Vitis Obviate:	sorry...didnt' relize I was typing... :)
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	So - My first big question is....
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	is this time actually convienent for anyone?
[7:43]	Vitis Obviate:	/ao off
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	Or would it make more sense to just make the Tuesday hours 2 hours long?
[7:43]	Vitis Obviate:	personally - I like this time
[7:44]	Helena Lycia:	As a UK person this is slightly too early for me... right inside work hours
[7:44]	Zero Linden:	It was intended for Europe - but don't know if there is anyone here?
[7:44]	Tao Takashi:	well, I am from Germany and it's also slightly too early for me
[7:44]	Helena Lycia:	3:30pm for UK... if I'm at work I don't normally get home until 6
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	Actually, I purposely picked worked hours time -- assumed that the people interested in this level of talk would be doing it from work... but there ya go, shows ya what I know!
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	Last time (tuesday) we had a lively discussion about Zha's blob-data desires
[7:45]	Tao Takashi:	well, I am doing SL at work but I would prefer to do the chatting after the real work ;-)
[7:45]	Helena Lycia:	I don't think my work would be too happy if I played SL instead of managing a call centre routing system
[7:46]	Khamon Fate:	either time works for me
[7:46]	Tao Takashi:	well, it's not that impossible for me actually so don't care about me :) I am fine as long as it's not completely my nighttimew
[7:46]	couch sit 1 RED.: Wyn Galbraith, say '/1 Hide' to hide me, or '/1 Show' to make me show. Or just right-click and sit on me to use me.
[7:46]	Khamon Fate:	as long as y'all are willing to have office hours, i'm willing to work around your respective schedules
[7:47]	Zero Linden:	Well - latest news from Studio Icehouse: we now have a test grid where almost ALL communication, even viewer to sim, is based on LLSD over TCP
[7:48]	Tao Takashi:	cool :)
[7:48]	Zero Linden:	As I've said, this doesn't result in any observable difference in the world ... but paves the way for
[7:48]	Tao Takashi:	and how is it working? how good that is
[7:48]	Zero Linden:	both smoother upgrades and future architectures
[7:48]	Zero Linden:	Tao - you basically can't tell
[7:48]	Zero Linden:	But it is hard to know on a test grid -
[7:49]	Tao Takashi:	yeah, sure
[7:49]	Zero Linden:	becuase nothing behaves like 6k processess... except 6k processes
[7:49]	Tao Takashi:	but it's still better than if you could tell on the test grid ;-)
[7:49]	Zero Linden:	Yes - we're quite happy
[7:49]	Zero Linden:	Today we'll be getting our code line in sync with the current release-candidate internally
[7:50]	Zero Linden:	and getting ready for a full QA test with all the TCP switches turned off
[7:50]	Zero Linden:	then we'll deploy that way - again proving that if we have to "blow the circuite breakers" when we deploy TCP, we can
[7:50]	Vitis Obviate nods
[7:50]	Vitis Obviate:	sounds like you are making steady progress
[7:51]	Tao Takashi:	indeed
[7:51]	Tao Takashi:	why actually was UDP choosen in the first place? is that known or lost in history? ;-)
[7:52]	Zero Linden:	Because it was thought that the vast majority of the messages would be things like object updates to the viewer and control inputs to the sim
[7:52]	Zero Linden:	these kinds of messages you want to just drop if there is a network hickccup
[7:52]	Zero Linden:	so UDP is the appropriate choice
[7:53]	Tao Takashi:	but then somebody implemented tcp-like features... ;-)
[7:53]	Zero Linden:	BUT as the system evolved in the SL of today, it turned out that 99.9% of the traffic are other things
[7:53]	Zero Linden:	and those messages are much more TCP like is style -- you really don't want to lose 'em
[7:53]	Zero Linden:	and order can be importantt
[7:53]	Tao Takashi:	yep
[7:53]	Jarod Godel:	Like what?
[7:54]	Jarod Godel:	What's not streaming? Chat? llEmail?
[7:54]	Tao Takashi:	so what is the majority of traffic these days? I only looked slightly into libsl and the source in order to get it implemented in Python (which I did not finish though)
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	Chat and IM,
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	Monitary transactions
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	Anything out of Search
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	Profile and Group info
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	Land settings...
[7:54]	Jarod Godel:	money. not something to loose in a hiccup. ;)
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	I could go on and on
[7:55]	Khamon Fate:	everything was using udp jarod, transactions, notecards, inventory, search
[7:55]	Zero Linden:	Actually, even edits to objects are probably best sent TCP
[7:55]	Khamon Fate:	things that need to be connection-oriented
[7:55]	Zero Linden:	Ever drag an object only to have it snap back to a prior position?
[7:55]	Zero Linden:	Really annoying!
[7:55]	Tao Takashi:	I don't like objects snapping back to some earlier state when editing indeed ;-)
[7:55]	Jarod Godel:	I think podcasts > streaming prove EVERYTHING is best sent over tcp/ip
[7:55]	Tao Takashi:	same with texture changes for many objects
[7:55]	Helena Lycia:	All to frequently
[7:55]	Vitis Obviate:	I presume you have decent instrumentation on the overall status of things - network, various dbs etc. - so you can quantify the improvements fromt he current situation to when you invoike the new messaging?
[7:56]	Helena Lycia:	Is there a likely eta for this change going live?
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	Tao - actually, there is a particular change in the works for texture changes!
[7:56]	Wyn Galbraith nods and gets that snap back thing alot.
[7:56]	Khamon Fate:	textures downloads *can* work over tcp/ip *if* the local cache is effective
[7:56]	Tao Takashi:	good to hear
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	Turns out that we had a message - change a texture on a particular face ... and we just used it even when changing all textures on all faces on all prims...
[7:56]	Tao Takashi:	what I'd also like though would be a way to set external textures :)
[7:56]	Jarod Godel:	Khamon, or if the servers are un-centralized. Nevermind.
[7:56]	Khamon Fate:	it's not been a viable option for SL because the local caching has suxx0r3d
[7:57]	Zero Linden:	but we also had a message for changing textures on multiple faces....
[7:57]	Tao Takashi:	like for stores having RL items that would be very handy to have that instead of uploading everything (which is not that dynamic)
[7:57]	Zero Linden:	we weren't using it in all cases for editing..... so the fix was simple since the code was already there!
[7:57]	Khamon Fate:	well now that's funny because LSL only has one texture change command that accepts a single face number or ALL
[7:58]	Zero Linden:	Khamon - we have textures over TCP in the lab here....
[7:58]	Zero Linden:	seems to work well
[7:58]	Tao Takashi:	also textures from the web? :)
[7:58]	Khamon Fate:	will we have a test client for that grid at some point for stressing?
[7:58]	Zero Linden:	Textures from the web, no
[7:58]	Zero Linden:	not anytime soon...
[7:58]	Zero Linden:	BUT
[7:58]	Tao Takashi:	too bad, that's the main thing I am missing
[7:59]	Tao Takashi:	dynamically changign textures based on RL item search etc.
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	We've been talking about what HTML on a Prim would / could mean
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	I think getting textures from the web onto a prim is a Use Case there
[7:59]	Helena Lycia:	You could string a loads of parms together in llSetPrimitiveParams to do textures on multiple faces
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	PLEASE add it to the growing comments on my Use Cases for HTML on a Prim discussion
[7:59]	Jarod Godel:	It should be there.
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Discussion_Page_for_Zero_Linden%27s_Office_Hours
[8:00]	Tao Takashi:	ok, but what I've heard it was planned to only have a limited set of textures being HTML and what I'd like is e.g. loading a bookshelf full of books from the web (the covers of these)
[8:00]	Tao Takashi:	and eventually filling my whole bookshop like that instead of uploading each of them
[8:00]	Zero Linden:	These is some differences in getting textures from the internet as a whole vs. from our asset server.
[8:00]	Khamon Fate:	zero, backing up a step, do you support our request to assign textures to a face using a url so that the client retrieves it from a source other than LL's web servers?
[8:00]	Zero Linden:	For one, images on the internet aren't in formats that are easily renderable in OpenGL efficiently
[8:00]	Jarod Godel:	... Bwah?
[8:00]	Zero Linden:	For example, they are not in a format with multiple MIP levels
[8:00]	Tao Takashi:	well, the other option would be to have a more automateable upload interface
[8:01]	Tao Takashi:	like a web service
[8:01]	Tao Takashi:	login, upload texture, get back UUID and get L$10 charged
[8:01]	Khamon Fate:	wel then just have the client cover the face with an cannot translate texture
[8:01]	Jarod Godel:	Yes
[8:01]	Khamon Fate:	put the odus on US to make sure our externally called textures are in a proper format
[8:01]	Jarod Godel:	That's a PHP script, Zero.
[8:01]	Tao Takashi:	right now I'd do it probably with libsl but that sounds more like sort of a hack and overkill ;-)
[8:01]	Zero Linden:	Khamon - so - it is clearly a cool idea to just put a URL for a texture on a face
[8:01]	Completely Obscure:	If I may jump in -- any time you allow someone to design something that retrieves content from outside LL, it should be some kind of signed interface so that I (as a user) can say no, I don't want non LL content. It is a big security and safety issue.
[8:01]	Zero Linden:	here are the obsticles:
[8:02]	Jarod Godel:	"Upload with this script TO YOUR SPACE, and it'll convert to JPEG2000"
[8:02]	Zero Linden:	1) A URL is generally much longer than an asset-id (only 16 bytes)
[8:02]	Jarod Godel:	tinyurl
[8:02]	Completely Obscure:	I can track someone in RL by knowing which avatar is seeing a face that pulls html from my website, and looking at my site logs to see their IP address.
[8:02]	Khamon Fate:	shhh jarod let him list
[8:02]	Zero Linden:	2) The viewer would then have to accept one or more of the formats for images on your web site
[8:02]	Jarod Godel:	see: PHP script
[8:02]	Tao Takashi:	IPs are logged everywhere anyway, I don't see this as an issue
[8:02]	Zero Linden:	(I bet you don't have 'em in jpeg2000 stream format...)
[8:03]	Completely Obscure:	Tao, there's a huge difference.
[8:03]	Jarod Godel:	(I bet there's a library to convert them)
[8:03]	Zero Linden:	3) Yes, there is an information exposure issue:
[8:03]	Tao Takashi:	well, what about the texture upload idea via webservice?
[8:03]	Completely Obscure:	I don't know you. you don't trust me (or shouldn't) but if looking at me you are pulling html for my shirt texture, I can link your real life IP to your avatar identity.
[8:04]	Zero Linden:	4) Non-MIP level images could easily ruin the viewers graphic performance
[8:04]	Zero Linden:	Again - that isn't to say that we don't want to figure out a way to handle this... but
[8:04]	Zero Linden:	these are the obsticles
[8:04]	Vitis Obviate:	zero - I would be happy to convert formats outside of SL, and reference only allowable formats - as a very nice first step.
[8:04]	Tao Takashi:	yeah, I guessed so.. but it would be a great feature and would enable quite some nice applications
[8:04]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, but at least two of those obstacles are easily solvable by 3rd party hosts
[8:04]	Completely Obscure:	IMCO, Tao, the two biggest issues faced here are not programmability ones, but are security/privacy and scale limitations in the current architecture.
[8:05]	Jarod Godel:	SL could open up imagehost.secondlife.com and rake in bucks from that
[8:05]	Zero Linden:	Vitis - careful what you agree to there! :-) have you looked at the tool support for jpeg2000 streaming format?
[8:05]	Tao Takashi:	well, the webservice wouldn't have these issues with IPs etc.
[8:05]	Khamon Fate:	can the viewer not be coded to convert as the asset upload does now? also, can the viewer not just reject any non-MIP textures out of hand?
[8:05]	Tao Takashi:	it simply would be the same like uploading in-world
[8:05]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - I don't think we could rake in the bucks for web hosting -- that is already a thin margin business as it is and there are plenty of players that have the experience to do it well
[8:06]	Zero Linden:	Tao - as for a capability for uploading textures via REST API - that is a pretty easy thing to imagine doing
[8:06]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, you say that, but imageshack and flickr do ok. My point it, the url length and jpeg2000 problems could be solved with a 404 texture and a company that dealt with sl image hosting.
[8:07]	Completely Obscure:	No, if anything it makes more sense to introduce the idea of "trusted" sources through signed development resources, the allow more peer to peer (or peer proxy hubs) so that each client ui can describe parts of "local content" directly to the other client browsers in the region rather than having to centralize EVERY db lookup.
[8:07]	Completely Obscure:	Jarod, a partnership with flickr would work well and be more financially sensible.
[8:07]	Zero Linden:	Indeed, those companies do okay - but that is what they DO
[8:07]	Tao Takashi:	Zero: that would be sufficient for my cases.. I could prepare stuff on my web backend, upload it and notify some script to change the textures
[8:08]	Taja Beatty listens quietly
[8:08]	Jarod Godel:	Nevermind. You guys want to host images. I'm not going to argue.
[8:08]	Vitis Obviate thinks that if he really neeed to covert tons of images into any format, a way could be found.
[8:08]	Zero Linden:	Tao - I'm curious - what kind of volume do you think you'd run?
[8:09]	Tao Takashi:	of images?
[8:09]	Zero Linden:	yes - how many L$10 uploads would you do a day?
[8:09]	Tao Takashi:	we now have 10 bookshelfs with 20 books each for 2 countries and this is 400 images then
[8:09]	Tao Takashi:	and the plan was to change it weekly although not every book will be exchanged
[8:09]	Completely Obscure:	Another option is to have LL based "proxy cache" web servers which can serve image and text content from any web site that gets a simple "certification" from LL. Just something to indicate the remote site meets a few characteristics and the owner is known and can be held responsible (avoids people using the proxies to host really nasty things)
[8:10]	Tao Takashi:	so not really sure right now
[8:10]	Tao Takashi:	but even changing 100 textures manually is not a joy to do ;-)
[8:10]	Khamon Fate notices Zero didn't state the zeroth reason that Philip has always been adamantly opposed to self hosting in general.
[8:10]	Zero Linden:	Which is?
[8:11]	Zero Linden observes that Cory and Philip have been chatting right next to his desk this whole time!
[8:11]	Jarod Godel:	I will say this -- and maybe html on a prim covers it: imagine Flickr or Myspace if you couldn't dump phonecam images to them. SL is the only social software I know that doesn't facilitate this.
[8:11]	Khamon Fate:	you're ruining my immersion zero
[8:12]	Completely Obscure:	You could sort of do it, because ll supports video streams and you could easily hack images to come in as video.
[8:12]	Completely Obscure:	but it's a miserable hack.
[8:12]	Khamon Fate:	Zero, can the viewer not be coded to convert as the asset upload does now? also, can the viewer not just reject any non-MIP textures out of hand?
[8:12]	Wyn Galbraith waves to the RLer's :)
[8:12]	Zero Linden:	So the whole question about HTML on a prim - is that we need to understand the use cases for it.... and so far, I'm seeing that #1 use case is just to get some external image on a prim face
[8:12]	Zero Linden:	or at least that is what all these uses would use it for
[8:13]	Zero Linden:	Khamon - those conversions aren't cheap in time
[8:13]	Tao Takashi:	oh, I'd also use it for more dynamic HUDs
[8:13]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, there's also web forms. In-world wikis.
[8:13]	Khamon Fate:	that's all you've seen zero because it's the best we can do without clickable links
[8:13]	Zero Linden:	Or memory
[8:13]	Vitis Obviate:	text on prim
[8:13]	Tao Takashi:	or at least for the easier implementation of them
[8:13]	Zero Linden:	So imagine walking into a region, a store, with easily 100 textures from the web...
[8:13]	Jarod Godel:	With xml-rpc, web-on-a-prim makes building nice interfaces possible
[8:13]	Tao Takashi:	text is definitely the other importnat usecase
[8:13]	Zero Linden:	it would be quite a burden on the viewer at the moment.
[8:13]	Khamon Fate:	we don't even have clickable areas of prim faces to "fake" links like we do with image maps
[8:13]	Completely Obscure:	I think instead it might be interesting to have not "html" on a prim face, but to define as one "texture" alternative a native "non-viewer" window that could be an embedded actual browser. This is supported on most OS platforms at this point.
[8:14]	Khamon Fate:	true, that would be quite a burden on the viewer. it's not a web browser after all.
[8:14]	Completely Obscure:	Thinking in terms of making the experience more useful and flexible, its time maybe to "break down the 4th wall" as it were.
[8:15]	Khamon Fate:	and it only uses 98% of my processor time now
[8:15]	Tao Takashi:	any other text-on-a-prim-solution would work for me, too, though ;-) I don't necessarily need HTML ;-) But it would enable more use cases of course
[8:15]	Zero Linden:	Completely - actually it isn't well supported - we are an OpenGL application and putting an arbitrary OS window on a OpenGL texture is...
[8:15]	Vitis Obviate:	I am not interesting in embedded arbitrary web views into SL...at least not any time soon
[8:15]	Zero Linden:	... well if the world were MacOS, easiy
[8:15]	Zero Linden:	but - tricky or hard in general!
[8:15]	Tao Takashi:	it isn't? ;-)
[8:15]	Khamon Fate wonders if third "trusted" parties would spring up to host properly formatted textures for SL viewers to access
[8:15]	Helena Lycia:	Actually being able to put text on a prim easily would be nice, whether it be from an external web page or a notecard in a prim... making signs for shops would be so much easier
[8:16]	Completely Obscure:	khamon, I've done a LOT of work on performance stuff in code recently, and I don't think client side performance is as simple as "its too busy" I think some aspects are very busy, but there is a lot of room for things that isn't.
[8:16]	Vitis Obviate:	the HTML on a prim story on Zero's discussion page has lots of good info on this
[8:16]	Tao Takashi:	and changign text dynamically would be so much easier then, too (without that massive prim usage of xytext)
[8:16]	Tao Takashi:	I need to read that
[8:16]	Zero Linden:	Helena - getting arbitrary text nicely rendered on a prim would be a different, and very useful, use case
[8:16]	Vitis Obviate:	its short, focused and useful
[8:17]	Wyn Galbraith smiles, "If you put text on a prim, wouldn't that lead to the next step, fonts on a prim, point size on a prim, etc?"
[8:17]	Khamon Fate:	thanks obscure, i'm interested to know what types of things are not busy. is there a discussion about that somewhere?
[8:17]	Zero Linden:	Khamon - I also originaly thought: Hey - my web browser displays pages with 100s of images easily - why can't the viewer
[8:17]	Zero Linden:	but I've learned that the problem is quite a bit different
[8:17]	Zero Linden:	For one, we are talking about 1000s of textures
[8:17]	Khamon Fate:	true
[8:18]	Completely Obscure:	stepping back from that problem a bit, for a bigger picture, the real problem with points/fonts/whatever, is that the conversion from vectors to raster as something becomes a texture and is stretched onto a prim is very hard to predict as you're working on the texture.
[8:18]	Zero Linden:	Second - to make the 3D expereince work - we have to be very careful about the order we load 'em
[8:18]	Zero Linden:	and we need to load a bit of each generally before getting a lot of any one
[8:18]	Zero Linden:	a web browser basically starts pulling them four at a time, left to right, top to bottom.... (in HTML space)
[8:19]	Completely Obscure:	how big a nightmare would it be, Zero, to come up with a native vector prim face?
[8:19]	Zero Linden:	and well.... you don't notice that the 50 images off the bottom of the page aren't loaded as you are still reading the top
[8:19]	Completely Obscure:	btw: first look render pipeline is a miraculous "look and feel" difference.
[8:20]	Zero Linden:	I'm not sure what you mean, about "native vector" -- you mean like display description language?
[8:20]	Zero Linden:	I think that would be a bigger morrass than we'd like
[8:20]	Zero Linden:	Lots to design and tools... unless we could use some existing format
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	Flash?
[8:21]	Completely Obscure:	to some extent. I'm just trying to look at the bigger problem that makes people feel like they want text or html on a prim face.
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	which brings us back to HTML on a prim -
[8:21]	Completely Obscure:	what they really want, actually, is better control over the detail level and how it lays on.
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	Indeed - but we're not going to render PostScript, or PCL, or PDF....
[8:21]	Completely Obscure:	so how can THAT be solved?
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	since those are rather big to manage, and not designed for small display spaces
[8:22]	Completely Obscure:	either by much more complex real-time rendering (as you say, very very hard)
[8:22]	Completely Obscure:	OR, but better off-line tools
[8:22]	Zero Linden:	But - again, for all it's quirks, HTML is a somewhat manageable display language
[8:22]	Completely Obscure:	An offline sim -- think like a mini-grid -- that could be run if you have enough PC power,
[8:22]	Jarod Godel:	what about using SMIL?
[8:22]	Wyn Galbraith has a thought, "What if the text could be 'printed' to the prim, then it wouldn't matter if it was HTML, PDF or PS..."
[8:23]	Completely Obscure:	so you can do your building offline entirely.
[8:23]	Wyn Galbraith:	Sor t of like MS Image printer.
[8:23]	Completely Obscure:	then when you FINISH an item, upload it as a "collection of prims" already linked as an object.
[8:23]	Completely Obscure:	then you could focus on the security and limits on what defines an uploadable object / prim set,
[8:24]	Tao Takashi:	There-on-a-prim...
[8:24]	Jarod Godel:	haha
[8:24]	Completely Obscure:	but open the off-line tools in ways that would never scale or be secure for in world editing.
[8:24]	Zero Linden:	Well- right now, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing an offline builder -- the open source viewer has everything you need
[8:24]	Zero Linden:	Granted
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	the final upload would look like your avatar
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	building in hyper-mode
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	but, it is quite doable
[8:25]	Jarod Godel:	a macro
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	Right - off line build, then log in, run the macro
[8:25]	Completely Obscure:	somewhere, there is a definition of an object, and of the prims it contains.
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	Getting an "upload this link set" message would then just be an optimization
[8:25]	Completely Obscure:	if at the end of the day that's what I end up with, I should be able to upload it as a object.
[8:26]	Khamon Fate:	are they drinking coffee?
[8:26]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, is there any chance of expanding the in-client Help browser to something more?
[8:26]	Completely Obscure:	since I haven't looked, for the sake of discussion suppose the couch I am on can ultimately be boiled down to an xml document at some point on a server somewhere.
[8:26]	Khamon Fate:	do philip and cory always drink coffee when they talk?
[8:27]	Tao Takashi:	they would spill all the time
[8:27]	Jarod Godel:	I'd be happy if my scripts could launch those to a url.
[8:27]	Zero Linden:	Khamon - no, neither was holding a coffee cup. Though both Philip and I have coffee cups on our desk.
[8:27]	Completely Obscure:	maybe xml, maybe something else, but whatever it is, I should be able to upload one, and have it serialized into the site.
[8:27]	Wyn Galbraith wonders if LL has good coffee ;)
[8:27]	Zero Linden didn't realize that folks cared about the coffee habits of Lindens....
[8:27]	Vitis Obviate:	I'd like to discuss instramentation and communication between LL and residents at some point
[8:27]	Tao Takashi:	Hm, I didn't get a coffee when I was there
[8:27]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - good point - yes,
[8:28]	Helena Lycia:	There is something else I'd like to see on a prim that I've been wondering about recently, not exactly related to this topic but I wonder about why there isn't an option to get a prim to render as though it was terrain (ie apparently textured as though it was normal terrain at the prim's location)
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	the browser functionality is sort of general.
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	In fact, you could mod the viewer now so that when a URL request is generated by a script, you give the user the option to open it in an in-viewer browser flower
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	floater
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	rather than their external browser
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	the only reason we don't right now
[8:28]	Wyn Galbraith has wondered about that Helena.
[8:29]	Zero Linden:	is that it is still the case that a number of things don't work with the internal browser
[8:29]	Completely Obscure:	Zero, THAT kind of interaction is hugely valueable to long term use here.
[8:29]	Zero Linden:	So we can't be sure that all pages will load
[8:29]	Khamon Fate:	have y'all watched the terraforming scenes in the HiPiHi demo?
[8:29]	Completely Obscure:	the ability for in world links to launch outside items could really expand use.
[8:29]	Khamon Fate:	now *that's* ground texturing
[8:29]	Helena Lycia:	I haven't
[8:29]	Wyn Galbraith:	Do you have the link for that?
[8:29]	Tao Takashi:	more interaction between in- and outside world is great in general ;-)
[8:30]	Completely Obscure:	again, needs a bit of security to warn people they're linking to outside LL and may be sharing personal data.
[8:30]	Tao Takashi:	like also having a personal mp3 or QT-stream would be nice
[8:30]	Zero Linden:	Completely - again, use cases on the wiki page, please!
[8:30]	Tao Takashi:	playing in your HUD
[8:30]	Completely Obscure:	fair enough.
[8:30]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, so, when can we expect to be able to do this in an unmodded client?
[8:30]	Zero Linden is frantically reading the scroll back
[8:31]	Zero Linden:	oops, sorry, Jarod - add use cases in the wiki please!
[8:31]	Jarod Godel:	can i add a new section?
[8:32]	Zero Linden:	Completely - there IS an XML file that describes a link set.... but I'd rather give you an API with a well defined format than that
[8:32]	Zero Linden:	Wyn - we do.
[8:32]	Zero Linden:	(have good coffee)
[8:32]	Vitis Obviate:	Zero - the XMl would be perfect for a lot of tings
[8:32]	Khamon Fate:	http://youtube.com/watch?v=mEKBlwZlBtw to just watch the vido. hipihi.com is written in characters. i don't know if there's an English page or not.
[8:33]	Completely Obscure:	wish list: Better "Ignore" functionality, and better "No Tresspass" functionality. Idea: Instead of a "do not enter" and being blocked, a no-tresspass region should appear to be blank, and though I could traverse it, anoyone in that region would be blind and uneffected by any thing I am or do (their client is simply not notified by my presense as I pass through).
[8:33]	Zero Linden:	Helena - I think that the ground rendering is so specialized, I'm not sure what a "ground" prim would be like - we'd have to have a totally different set of editor controls for prims of type "ground"......
[8:34]	Zero Linden:	Tao - viewer/in-world/out-world interaction is a great topic --- but a big one, so let's save it for next time
[8:34]	Completely Obscure:	in the same light, I should be able to click any object or region, and make it "invisble" to me. it becomes background texture.
[8:34]	Khamon Fate:	it would have to be a non-opengl standard geometric mesh and that would be a serious download
[8:34]	Helena Lycia:	I was imagining something that had the normal shapes of prims but appeared to be textures so they blended in with the terrain
[8:34]	Khamon Fate:	oh the terrain textures are available in the library folder
[8:34]	Khamon Fate:	in your inventory
[8:35]	Khamon Fate:	you can make a cube look just like a rock
[8:35]	Helena Lycia:	Yeah but those mesh together in real terrain which can't be done easily on a prim
[8:35]	Zero Linden:	Completely - I wonder about the consequences of a world where everyone can filter it -- would it become so fragmented as to no longer be a shared virtual reality?
[8:35]	Completely Obscure:	This would solve many negative "neighbor" problems.
[8:35]	Tao Takashi:	or create them ;-)
[8:35]	Tao Takashi:	like banlines
[8:35]	Zero Linden:	And on that socio-theoretical note, I'm going to wrap up!
[8:35]	Khamon Fate:	oh true, you have to save copies and mix them using paint shop or such then upload those specialized versions
[8:35]	Completely Obscure:	IMO, there are two distinct uses for owned space here.
[8:36]	Completely Obscure:	places you want people to come and enjoy, and places you want privacy and only your invitees to enjoy.
[8:36]	Completely Obscure:	they are distinct.
[8:36]	Helena Lycia:	And then you decide to move everything up 5m and you have to redo all the textures
[8:36]	Wyn Galbraith:	Thank you Zero, these meetings are a real education for me.
[8:36]	Khamon Fate:	wull zero it's already pretty filtered with open teleortation and ban lines anyway
[8:36]	Zero Linden:	Since, after all, this is a tech-talk --- if you want community theory - go to Robin's Office hourse!
[8:36]	Khamon Fate:	how much worse can it get?
[8:36]	Zero Linden:	*hours
[8:36]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, I added In-Client Browser to the wiki page
[8:36]	Tao Takashi:	ok, so how is voice implemented? :-)
[8:36]	Khamon Fate claps for jarod
[8:36]	Zero Linden:	Thank you all....
[8:36]	Tao Takashi:	<-- getting back to tech ;-)
[8:37]	Jarod Godel:	Robin has a horse? cool!
[8:37]	Zero Linden:	Tao - again another big topic
[8:37]	Khamon Fate:	thanks for hosting zero
[8:37]	Helena Lycia:	It would be great if prim faces could be set to render as though they were terrain, no other texture effects working, just render to look like terrain at that height and angle
[8:37]	Wyn Galbraith:	She has a house ;)
[8:37]	Vitis Obviate:	ty Zero
[8:37]	Zero Linden:	Hey - don't make fun of my bad typing skillz
[8:37]	Tao Takashi:	I know and basically I know so don't worry about it
[8:37]	Zero Linden:	See ya
[8:37]	Tao Takashi:	and I more likely would ask on the beta grid then
[8:37]	Zero Linden:	As always, transcript in the wiki
[8:37]	Wyn Galbraith:	Typing skills only are important while coding :)