User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Mar 27

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:02]	Fate Garden:	yes well the pat answer will be that your brain just isn't upgraded enough
[13:02]	Zha Ewry:	Afternoon, Zero
[13:02]	Zero Linden:	hello hello
[13:02]	Fate Garden:	hi zero
[13:02]	Jarod Godel:	yo
[13:02]	Gigs Taggart:	hi
[13:02]	Zha Ewry:	Your sim is wimpering...
[13:02]	Fate Garden:	i'm really here this time
[13:03]	Fate Garden:	using the .14 client
[13:03]	Zha Ewry:	Or theasset server.
[13:03]	Fate Garden claps
[13:03]	Zero Linden:	Eh? It seems fine in the stats
[13:03]	Zha Ewry:	People are nice and gray
[13:03]	Fate Garden:	did you say asshat server?
[13:03]	Tao Takashi:	Hi guys
[13:03]	Zha Ewry:	And taking forevewr to stop looking like ruth as they rez
[13:03]	Zero Linden:	Not for me.... So it isn't the backend...
[13:03]	Fate Garden:	yeah looks okay to me
[13:03]	Zha Ewry:	Oohh. Hmm.
[13:03]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, why aren't all textures QuickTime textures?
[13:04]	Zero Linden:	What do you mean by QuickTime texture?
[13:04]	Jarod Godel:	Streaming video
[13:04]	Fate Garden:	traceroute it zha, you gotta bad route in there somewhere
[13:04]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[13:04]	Cid Vilas:	Hello :)
[13:04]	Zero Linden:	Indeed - people and their textures and shapes are showing up immediatly for me....
[13:04]	Fate Garden:	hi rex
[13:04]	Fate Garden:	what's a texture?
[13:04]	Rex Cronon:	had a hard time getting here
[13:05]	Jarod Godel:	I spent the last week coding a quiz program for someone, and it turns out (to some degree), via QuickTime, I can load textures from the web
[13:05]	Jarod Godel:	But it's just one texture per parcel.
[13:05]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - ah, so you mean, why can't each texture be a quick time stream?
[13:05]	Fate Garden:	different streams for different people?
[13:05]	Zha Ewry:	17 hops, 85ms
[13:05]	Gigs Taggart:	Jarod that ties into my web texture proposal
[13:05]	Zero Linden:	because quick time wasn't designed to support 1500 streams at once
[13:05]	Fate Garden:	ha ha each texture a quicktime stream
[13:05]	Jarod Godel:	tes
[13:05]	Tao Takashi:	a separate stream in the HUD would be nice
[13:05]	Jarod Godel:	yes
[13:05]	Tao Takashi:	as well as a separate mp3 stream
[13:05]	Jarod Godel:	Gigs, but that's never going to happen
[13:06]	Fate Garden:	zha: are you still getting slow results from the sim?
[13:06]	Jarod Godel:	SL textures have to be JPEG2000
[13:06]	Gigs Taggart:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Web_Textures
[13:06]	Zha Ewry:	Clearing the group cache helped.. Sigh. users should never see that :-)
[13:06]	Jarod Godel:	By using quicktime, textures can be smil, jpg, png, gif, etc...
[13:06]	flying ball whispers: I am ALIVE!
[13:06]	Gigs Taggart:	textures can be TGA
[13:06]	Jarod Godel:	ok. jpeg2000 and tga
[13:06]	Fate Garden:	where group cache clear?
[13:06]	Fate Garden:	group cache?
[13:06]	Zha Ewry:	debug
[13:06]	Gigs Taggart:	if you are writing the back end too it's not a problem to give SL what it wants
[13:06]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, oh.
[13:07]	Zha Ewry:	We need to let Zero give us his little "as always" speach
[13:07]	Zero Linden:	As always....
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	...the transcript of this office hours will be posted to the wiki
[13:08]	Fate Garden drumrolls
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	What you say, you say in public
[13:08]	Cid Vilas:	Hehe
[13:08]	Rex Cronon:	the one from the last time isn't posted zero:(
[13:08]	Tao Takashi:	Sl sux
[13:08]	Tao Takashi:	;-)
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	Ooops - sorry
[13:08]	Fate Garden:	jarod has funny hair
[13:08]	Cid Vilas:	I have a question about llHTTPRequest(). If you ht your limit will you know or will it all of a sudden fail without warning. And is there a way to increase usage through added support by paying more?
[13:08]	Cid Vilas:	ht=hit
[13:08]	Jarod Godel:	Fail without warning.
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	Okay - let me finish up the http texture stuff
[13:08]	Jarod Godel:	A debug icon appears, iirc
[13:09]	Cid Vilas:	ok :) no worries
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	So, Gigs, as you may or may not know, there has been some continuing discussion about html and external images on prims
[13:09]	Gigs Taggart:	yep
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	in these office hours
[13:09]	Zha Ewry nods
[13:09]	Gigs Taggart:	I looked over them some, added the existing web texture discussion to your page
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	Good -
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	NOW (okay, after this gathering) would be a REALLY GOOD time to get your ideas, user stories, etc... up there
[13:10]	Zha Ewry:	Lots to read there Gigs. Thx
[13:10]	Gigs Taggart:	The key is not just pulling images "off the web" so much as being able to craft them with a web server side script. I noticed someone said they just wanted to get around the 10L fee, that's now what I see this about.
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	Rex?
[13:10]	Gigs Taggart:	now/not
[13:10]	Rex Cronon:	yes
[13:11]	Tao Takashi:	I just need an automated way to upload them, would be sufficient for me
[13:11]	Tao Takashi:	if with or without the L$10,- I don't care
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	Gigs - that is why we need to know user stories -- there is some discussion internally, and I think we need to really understand what people need
[13:11]	Gigs Taggart:	well one big compelling case is XyText replacement
[13:11]	Jarod Godel:	Gigs, you can do that with a quicktime stream
[13:11]	Zha Ewry:	mostly afk.. rl meeting here..
[13:12]	Tao Takashi:	another one if getting e.g. product images into here to also have a long tail of selling in here
[13:12]	Tao Takashi:	like with my bookstore where they want to exchange book covers regularly
[13:12]	Gigs Taggart:	we could make a script to do something like script.php?text=whatever&font=whatever and put that on the prim face for the clients to download
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	Tao - and all - please add ths as a new section to https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/HTML_on_a_Prim_Use_Cases
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	Please list what you would actually do with it, and how you would use it... whatever "it" is for you
[13:12]	Tao Takashi:	just putting a http texture on a prim would be the best probably but having it to upload first via some webservice would also be sufficient for me (if I get back the UUID)
[13:12]	Gigs Taggart:	k
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	I can't stress the need for real life use cases enough --
[13:13]	Gigs Taggart:	heh, I'm sure I can come up with a few million
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	if you want speculate on different mechanisms, features, or possible uses....
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	this is your page: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/HTML_on_a_Prim_Taxonomy
[13:13]	Fate Garden:	it's a very good idea to demonstrate real needs
[13:13]	Zha Ewry:	And.. if you do speculate, keep in mind the 16K limits on LSL and such
[13:13]	Tao Takashi:	xytext replacement might be another thing but I wouldn't want to create web textures for that instead, it's just another hack ;-)
[13:13]	Gigs Taggart:	it's not a hack, it's much more flexible.
[13:14]	Gigs Taggart:	anything we can generate in raster can be slapped on that prim
[13:14]	Tao Takashi:	but it's hard to setup for the common user and you need a webserver
[13:14]	Zha Ewry:	For some cases, that's exactly what we want...
[13:14]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, would a demonstration be as good as adding to the wiki? (not here or now, but an slurl link)
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	Well, Tao, let us know where that is a problem - many others are happy as a clam to have a web server
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - no
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	the Wiki is a place where lots of other developers can read it
[13:14]	Jarod Godel:	k
[13:14]	Zha Ewry:	Welll, we also wantt some stuff, on the front where we can just push simple html
[13:14]	Tao Takashi:	yes, it would be nice to have that, too, maybe but a simple extended llSetText would do it for most people probably, e.g. RSS readers and such
[13:14]	Zha Ewry:	from a script
[13:15]	Tao Takashi:	well, development is a bit faster without the webserver roundtrip at first I think
[13:15]	Jarod Godel:	I think the best reason for wanting webtextures on a prim is web 2.0
[13:15]	Tao Takashi:	if I want a simple display
[13:15]	Gigs Taggart:	that would be one way to do it Tao. However we get a lot of "free" other functionality with arbitrary raster data applied to the prim and fetched by the client from http
[13:15]	Zero Linden:	well - again, please don't assume anything about the cost of implemetnation
[13:16]	Tao Takashi:	showing the state of an object or whatnot
[13:16]	Jarod Godel:	so many things are now aggregated via the web, it'd be nice to be able to use them in-world
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	and - web textures on a prim doesn't necissarily mean web 2.0 on a prim
[13:16]	Tao Takashi:	yep
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	again - real use cases will drive what we do
[13:16]	Jarod Godel:	No, but it means web 2.1 on a prim
[13:16]	Tao Takashi:	web2.0 on a prim does mean nothing or everything anyway depending on who you ask ;-)
[13:16]	Jarod Godel:	text rendered via XML with 3D/llHTTPRequest implemented AJAX-prims
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	? web 2.1 -- I'm a little unclear what that is...
[13:17]	Jarod Godel:	sorry, the spirit of ETech has moved me
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	hmmmmmm......
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	well...
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	answering Cid's question from long ago
[13:17]	Cid Vilas:	:)
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	No, there is no way to increase your limit of llHTTPRequest
[13:18]	Cid Vilas:	Ok :)
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	There has been discussion of how to allocate resources and limits
[13:18]	Tao Takashi:	do I put my usecases on the web textures page?
[13:18]	Jarod Godel raises a hand.
[13:18]	Rex Cronon:	isn't that only 256 bytes:(
[13:18]	Cid Vilas:	Oh. Where is some of this discussion?
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	Tao - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/HTML_on_a_Prim_Use_Cases
[13:18]	Cid Vilas:	Ah. heh. Thank you. :)
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	Rex? what? --- okay
[13:19]	Tao Takashi:	ok, thanks
[13:19]	Zha Ewry:	Hmm. Zero, is the byterange discussion sitill on the table?
[13:19]	Tao Takashi:	but mine are more just about http textures ;-)
[13:19]	Gigs Taggart:	Zero on that page, I'm not sure how to put http texture use cases, I have no interest in HTML on a prim
[13:19]	Gigs Taggart:	but the use cases for http textures do overlap a lot
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	"There has been discussion" is code for "Linden engineers have talked about it in hallways and agree there is a problem but don't feel like they know enough yet to make the right solution"
[13:20]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, is there a limit to how many times we can use llParcelMediaCommandList?
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	Gigs - http textures has come to be seen as a subset of the HTML on a prim - so just go ahead and add it
[13:20]	Tao Takashi:	hope it will make sense what I write there as I am severly jetlagged ;-)
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - Alas, I'm not an encyclopedia of LSL....
[13:21]	Gigs Taggart:	ok
[13:21]	Jarod Godel:	Ok
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	So - this limits thing
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	is interesting
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	it is thought that we should divvy up most resources according
[13:21]	Jarod Godel:	Cid, look into llParcelMediaCommandList if you want a hack around llHTTPRequest limits
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	to land ownership -
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	just like prims
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	but that leaves some questions
[13:21]	Cid Vilas:	Thank you Jarod. Will look into this. Take care all :) Thanks Zero
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	for example - you can set your land to build with auto-return
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	and people can temporarily make use of your resource allocation
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	should that concept follow through for all resources?
[13:22]	Tao Takashi:	plain text on a prim goes there, too?
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	if so, are they all individually controallable?
[13:22]	Zha Ewry nods, and then asks.. with simialr controls?
[13:22]	Tao Takashi:	in theory these are all subsets of html-on-a-prim probably
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	Tao - yes
[13:23]	Tao Takashi:	but I will not assume technology for now :)
[13:23]	Jarod Godel:	Really?
[13:23]	Fate Garden:	good question. is LL considering limiting resources, other than prims, per sm ownership in a sim?
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	Fate - we already do
[13:23]	Tao Takashi:	it might be implemented another way but if LL does HTML anyway it makes sense to implement it via this technology instead of doing something separate
[13:23]	Fate Garden:	that's news to me
[13:23]	Jarod Godel:	because images on a prim don't need clickable links like html on a prim.
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	like the llHTTPRequest limits and there are llInstantMessage limits and llRezObject limits too
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	though those were done more in the spirit of abuse mitigation
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	than resource limiting -- so you'd have to be pretty abusive to hit them
[13:24]	Fate Garden:	they do help prevent severe abuse
[13:24]	Rex Cronon:	so what is the limit for IMs?
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - but yes, same topic - since we don't really know what HTML on a prim means - it may not mean browser on a prim
[13:24]	Fate Garden:	but they don't solve the problem of me not being able to access my land when the sim is full because 40 avs are crammed on 512sm of land
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	Rex - I really don't know right now - it has changed over time
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	but really, those are very high - just to stop massive abuse or attack
[13:25]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, oh, ok.
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	(Please don't go trying to find them....)
[13:25]	Zero Linden thinks this transcript is going to be the most schizophrenic yet....
[13:25]	Rex Cronon:	can't i spam myself with IMs:)
[13:26]	Fate Garden:	we need colour coding yes
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	Rex - well, yes, but, well, alarms may go off and grid monkeys may appear
[13:26]	Rex Cronon:	oh
[13:26]	Jarod Godel:	Some of us don't.
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	just so long as we don't support <blink>
[13:26]	Jarod Godel:	What
[13:26]	Jarod Godel:	do
[13:26]	Jarod Godel:	you
[13:27]	Jarod Godel:	mean
[13:27]	Jarod Godel:	?
[13:27]	Fate Garden:	are we anti-bling?
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	<blink> == text bling
[13:27]	Zha Ewry rolls her eyes wondering what people are going to think when they read this transcript
[13:28]	Tao Takashi:	well, what does browser-on-a-prim mean actually? ;-)
[13:28]	Tao Takashi:	Links etc. should be clickable IMHO e.g. to create HUD UIs via HTML
[13:28]	Tao Takashi:	and JS functions to trigger LSL might also be nice for that
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	Tao - there are many possible answers - most outlined in the Wiki (on the taxonomy page)
[13:28]	Fate Garden:	i'd settle for the inworld browser (F1) having an address bar
[13:28]	Jarod Godel:	hear, hear
[13:28]	Zha Ewry:	I don't really want a browser
[13:28]	Zha Ewry:	I want to be able to push textures and content out to the users
[13:28]	Fate Garden:	neither does lordfly
[13:29]	Zha Ewry:	a browser...isn't really someting I need *insisde* SL
[13:29]	Jarod Godel:	I want both. Treat the world like a Widget platform, but have a built-in browser for more.
[13:29]	Fate Garden:	many people can't run a browser and sl at the same time though
[13:29]	Zha Ewry:	I want to steer content to users, and use HTML for markeup
[13:29]	Fate Garden:	shall we just tell them they must upgrade
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	Fate - there is the option of opening real web pages in the 2D UI floater
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	which is yet a different conception of HTML/browswer in SL
[13:30]	Rex Cronon:	i think there needs to be a wish list on your webpage zero, for both builders and scripters
[13:30]	Fate Garden:	yes if you edit the client code
[13:30]	Zha Ewry:	The thing is, as soon as you go tino the game of full browsers in SL.. you have a very messy story knowing that's going on in the
[13:30]	Fate Garden:	shall we explain that to all the residents who can't afford to upgrade their equipment
[13:30]	Zha Ewry:	client's visual field, from the scripted (sim) side
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	I'm looking at html on prims, as ways of controlling what my users sees, not as ways of letting hiim go to google :-)
[13:31]	Fate Garden:	yes zha but there's no reason for us to insist that everyone use a locked down client that only interacts with this space
[13:31]	Jarod Godel:	Zha, then you just want images or SMIL on a prim.
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	Sure.
[13:31]	Jarod Godel:	Not full-blown html
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	No..
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	I do want a lot of HTML.. I don't want a broswer
[13:31]	Zha Ewry:	There's a middle ground
[13:32]	Tao Takashi:	well, if I build a computer in SL I also might want the user to be able to google with it ;-)
[13:32]	Jarod Godel:	Zha, so, you at least want clickable links?
[13:32]	Zha Ewry:	At some point, you just need to opebn a window...
[13:32]	Gigs Taggart:	Don't people know what alt-tab does?
[13:32]	Zha Ewry:	I'm not at al sure I do want clickables.
[13:32]	Zha Ewry:	Because that opens up the whole synch up question
[13:32]	Tao Takashi:	for me it depends, it should probably be switchable
[13:33]	Tao Takashi:	as said, for a HUD interface I'd need those links
[13:33]	Zha Ewry:	as soon as I let users click on links... I'm out of the business of konwing what my user is experiencing
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	The very hard part is that it is really easy for all of us, Linden engineers and Resident developers, to imagine all sorts of spiffy uses, yet it is difficult to pin down what people will actually make use of.
[13:33]	Tao Takashi:	so probably I might want links if I create that HTML application myself
[13:33]	Jarod Godel:	Then I think what you're asking for is just web-based image rendering -- using a PHP script to layout a screen.
[13:33]	Fate Garden:	synch is already dead. we're all tripping on acid, as philip puts it, via optional settings
[13:33]	Zha Ewry:	Which is different form saying, I don't want to get SL clicks and load pages for my user
[13:34]	Zha Ewry:	I don't however, want the user getting too deeplyi in the loop
[13:34]	Jarod Godel:	If you don't want <a href=""></a> tags, then everything can be done via a rendered jpeg
[13:34]	Zha Ewry:	Not with scripting
[13:34]	Jarod Godel:	Yes, it can.
[13:34]	Jarod Godel:	I did that just last week for a client.
[13:34]	Jarod Godel:	LSL and PHP
[13:34]	Gigs Taggart:	if we got touch coordinates too you can still do something like imagemap clicks if you want more interactivity
[13:34]	Tao Takashi:	Zha: well, as said, maybe having some sort of in-world browser (3d) might be nice to have, too, as it adds to the immersion and I don't need to switch programs
[13:35]	Zero Linden:	So quick check - I assume that if you are rendering jpegs - you are also doing the right thing and inserting Expires: headers?
[13:35]	Jarod Godel:	PHP renders an image, LSL loads it up
[13:35]	Tao Takashi:	and no, I don't just want an image as I also want to change the layout according to the clicks, e.g. show another menu or so
[13:35]	Jarod Godel:	LSL feeds out HTTP, PHP renders a new image
[13:35]	Jarod Godel:	goto 10
[13:35]	Tao Takashi:	and this is more easily done in HTMl with JS
[13:35]	Zero Linden:	Tao - I don't think I know what a "browser (3d)" is
[13:35]	Tao Takashi:	or some backend code
[13:35]	Fate Garden:	imagemaps will be right behind user defined bumpmaps
[13:35]	Tao Takashi:	Zero: I mean on a prim, not a floater
[13:35]	Fate Garden:	and will be a nice intermediate step until we have browsable links
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	Ah - and do you think that means shared browser state? or each user sees their own?
[13:36]	Tao Takashi:	good question :)
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	Both camps have their attractors
[13:36]	Fate Garden:	each user sees their own
[13:36]	Jarod Godel:	Quicktime and llParcelMediaCommandList allow for both
[13:36]	Jarod Godel:	(hence my earlier question)
[13:36]	Rex Cronon:	if u own the land,yes
[13:36]	Tao Takashi:	shared states have probably security concerns attached
[13:37]	Tao Takashi:	like internet cafes have
[13:37]	Fate Garden:	although it'd be nice if we could capture each others screens in a peer-to-peer fashion so i could demostrate things to people with them seeing what i'm doing
[13:37]	Fate Garden:	but that's another topic
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	Well -- again --- there are lots of "it would be nice".... always trying to suss out the actual thing you'd do with it first
[13:37]	Gigs Taggart:	My interest in this is not to put the web in SL, it's only to make more interactive and dynamic objects in SL.
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	See - that is closer to what we need to know
[13:38]	Fate Garden:	that's jarod's interest too
[13:38]	Tao Takashi:	ok, my main intent is probably also to make stuff more interactive and more likely to build this HTML application myself
[13:38]	Tao Takashi:	as for searches etc.
[13:39]	Jarod Godel:	I would build an in-world 3D Bat-computer that let people check email, look at Amber Alerts, and view porn all on 3-screens in one atrea
[13:39]	Jarod Godel:	*area
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	Right - probably no one here is going to try to put google calendar on a prim, which isn't to say it wouldn't, possible, kinda cool... just that it wouldn't be your first project
[13:39]	Gigs Taggart:	I see HTML as a very baggage-laden and inefficient way to make dynamic 2D layouts.
[13:39]	Tao Takashi:	google calendar would indeed be very cool ;-)
[13:39]	Jarod Godel:	Google calendar would be very possible
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	Please, let's NOT get into a HTML/XML/CSS design discussion!
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	:-)
[13:39]	Tao Takashi:	but then again, is it shared or not is the question
[13:39]	Jarod Godel:	You want to know what I'd do, honestly?
[13:40]	Jarod Godel:	www.konfabulator.com
[13:40]	Jarod Godel:	That's what I'd do.
[13:40]	Gigs Taggart:	hehe I'm not, but we have an opportunity here to dump all those years of legacy
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	Yes - 'cause I bet it wouldn't be Google Calendar
[13:40]	Tao Takashi:	sometimes I might want to have it shared like for my events at my place
[13:40]	Gigs Taggart:	instead of importing them
[13:40]	Zha Ewry:	My take, has been, that we need enough ability to mix in HTML.. so we can get good easy rendering of structure... byut..
[13:40]	Jarod Godel:	/twit I'd love to be able to read Twitter posts in-world.
[13:40]	Rex Cronon:	i would like for scripts to intercept events generated on the html page
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	Gigs - we (we = Linden) can't reinvent all the technologies of the world
[13:41]	Bash: Message posted
[13:41]	Zha Ewry:	I don't want husge amount of pure 2d web in my user's face
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	SL unfies so many different computer science fields
[13:41]	Tao Takashi:	ok, the thing now is: If we think more about browser it's probably more secure to think of separate states per user. But for things like some user interfaces maybe shared would be nice
[13:41]	Gigs Taggart:	zero of course, that's why I advocate a simple raster fetching.. if people want to generate that from HTML they do it on their own (CPU) time :P
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	it would take decades longer if we revisited everything - like text/image layout
[13:41]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, it's the same technology
[13:41]	Tao Takashi:	frist invent the new web ;-)
[13:41]	Zha Ewry:	The problem is that we sometimes, need to build some structure on the LSL side.
[13:42]	Jarod Godel:	Give us images, PHP will give us text
[13:42]	Zha Ewry:	The "just send a jpg" is painful from the point of view of scripting
[13:42]	Tao Takashi:	but not that resource friendly ;-)
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	Actually, first invent program logic.....
[13:42]	Emzy Enzyme:	hi everyone
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	Then....
[13:42]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	Welcome to my office hours, Emzy
[13:42]	Zha Ewry:	Large pits. Boulders, work up to tapes and turing machines... Yes.. Yes.
[13:42]	Tao Takashi:	Hi Emzy
[13:43]	Gigs Taggart:	Zha you assume that you'll have to reinvent the wheel by yourself, I don't think that would be the case
[13:43]	Emzy Enzyme:	tnx zero
[13:43]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, first invent arrays. :)\
[13:43]	Gigs Taggart:	Zha I give it like a week before someone starts offering free/open source PHP to do common things
[13:43]	Jarod Godel:	Gigs, you want it now?
[13:43]	Gigs Taggart:	like generate text images SL can use
[13:43]	Jarod Godel:	Give me an hour
[13:43]	Zha Ewry:	The problem is that you end up with constant SL/Web server cooridination to do simple stuff
[13:43]	Gigs Taggart:	hehe for what?
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - now THAT'S asking too much.... really! Arrays! Whew - what you think I've got 100 programmers here?!?!
[13:43]	Jarod Godel:	Text on prim
[13:43]	Tao Takashi:	still, text on a prim would be easier and one wouldn't need to rely on anything else
[13:44]	Zha Ewry:	No, about 35...
[13:44]	Jarod Godel:	I have the code for text wrapping
[13:44]	Tao Takashi:	but for a start images alone would be ok I think
[13:44]	Tao Takashi:	just that I wouldn't use them for text probably ;-)
[13:44]	Gigs Taggart:	I don't know if you can say easier
[13:44]	Gigs Taggart:	rendering text isn't easy
[13:44]	Tao Takashi:	for me it's still a hack ;-)
[13:44]	Jarod Godel:	Gigs, i'm in a wheelchair
[13:44]	Jarod Godel:	walking is hard
[13:44]	Jarod Godel:	rendering text is childsplay
[13:44]	Gigs Taggart:	hehe
[13:45]	Gigs Taggart:	it's not trivial to render readable text into a reasonable resolution raster
[13:45]	Zha Ewry:	I think.. we're back with 2 or 3 very different use cases contending here
[13:45]	Gigs Taggart:	even at 300 dpi it's kinda iffy
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	Actually, rendering text is so hard I would never write that again (having done it a few times) -- getting it just right is very difficult - and really, there are technologies that do it
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	so - better to just build on 'em
[13:45]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah :P
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	even if they have warts
[13:45]	Zha Ewry:	Espeically when you don't know that it's going to be rendered at the same resoultion every time
[13:45]	Fate Garden:	zha, if LL refuses to provide us an inworld whiteboard feature, our only option is to output text, have an external resource format and image it, then apply it inworld from that external source
[13:45]	Jarod Godel:	Gigs, well, you're not going to get Macbeth on a prim, but maybe a blog roll
[13:45]	Gigs Taggart:	hehe
[13:45]	Tao Takashi:	just have HTML on a prim ;-)
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	well- now we've come full circle, eh?
[13:46]	Tao Takashi:	sure :)
[13:46]	Jarod Godel:	Let me ask this.
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	Okay - I'm going to declare this topic closed for this session today
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	so we can address anything else
[13:46]	Jarod Godel:	Nevermind.
[13:46]	Tao Takashi:	I will maybe elaborate my use cases a bit more later this week on the wiki
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	PLEASE (have I said this enough) put thoughts and real "I'd build this tomorrow" use cases in the wiki- and be honest
[13:47]	Rex Cronon:	i think that people would be intereted in creating GUIs using LSL
[13:47]	Zero Linden:	OKAY
[13:47]	Zero Linden:	I think some movement internal to LL is going to push this a bit - so, please do it soon
[13:47]	Zero Linden:	other things? I head byte-range question
[13:47]	Zha Ewry:	Still on table?
[13:48]	Zha Ewry wants that yesterday :-)
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	It has 9 votes in our internal Jira
[13:48]	Rex Cronon:	16MB would be a nice range:)
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	and, still, sigh, noone assigned
[13:48]	Gigs Taggart:	what bug?
[13:48]	Gigs Taggart:	I'm out of this loop
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	There has been a request to support byte-ranges in llHTTPRequest
[13:49]	Gigs Taggart:	oh like partial reply
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	which would cause the squid proxy to fetch the whole document at once
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	and then LSL could snag byteranges off it very quickly
[13:49]	Tao Takashi:	that might be helpful but OTOH you can always code that yourself with a backend
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	since that is Squid's behavior (if it is a GET)
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	(well, duh, can't byte range a POST... silly me)
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	Zha - has reasons for not ... Zha?
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	Well, Zha is in a RL meeting....
[13:50]	Zha Ewry:	Heh
[13:50]	Zha Ewry:	Sort of
[13:50]	Zha Ewry:	Let me scroll back a second
[13:50]	Zha Ewry:	Ahh.
[13:50]	Zha Ewry:	Mostly an efficnecy issue
[13:50]	Zha Ewry:	But also to avoid having to code up all the insanity of the chunking you end up
[13:50]	Zha Ewry:	doing
[13:51]	Gigs Taggart:	sound's good to me, how would you invalidate the cached version though?
[13:51]	Emzy Enzyme:	llTargetOmega on child prims is still broken, will it be fixed?
[13:52]	Rex Cronon:	oh, today i saw for the first time particles that don't move nor do they die
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	Emzy - I see several internal issues listed with llTargetOmega - some currently assigned, some note
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	*not
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	Rex, I know the particle implementation entirely changed with 1.14.0 (first look) - but I don't think the feature set did
[13:54]	Emzy Enzyme:	changing rotation after rerezzed in world issend working on child prims... oh i thing about 6months, or it never worked.
[13:54]	Fate Garden:	emzy do you mean it doesn't work when only applied to a child prim rather than the entire object?
[13:54]	Gigs Taggart:	particles still lead moving objects :(
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	Emzy - later is quite likely
[13:55]	Fate Garden:	the particle change just depreciated the four original particle commands
[13:55]	Emzy Enzyme:	Fate: yes, if it isn't the root prim.
[13:55]	Gigs Taggart:	it did more than that Fate
[13:55]	Gigs Taggart:	they are like... weird now
[13:55]	Fate Garden:	and i believe the system actually still recognizes them but implements them using the new particle system
[13:55]	Tao Takashi:	LSD particles ;-)
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	Some questions to the group:
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	1) When voice happens - should we hold these meetings w/voice?
[13:56]	Tao Takashi:	I say yes :)
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	2) Would you like to see other Linden devlopers hold office hours?
[13:56]	Zha Ewry:	You'll llose your transcripts
[13:56]	Tao Takashi:	but I am a voice fanboy
[13:56]	Gigs Taggart:	1) No, I use Linux, and can't use the proprietary solution you chose.
[13:56]	Zha Ewry:	Or need a scribe
[13:56]	Zha Ewry:	I love having chat logs
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	3) Is it time to start scheduling topics for these?
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	(that was the last)
[13:56]	Zha Ewry:	2) yes, yes Yes!
[13:56]	Zha Ewry:	3) One or two themes would be nice
[13:57]	Xanshin Paz:	1) I'm not too impressed with voice
[13:57]	Tao Takashi:	2) bring the Havok guy ;-) well, actually I don't know who's doing what usually so maybe it'd be more about topics probably
[13:57]	Gigs Taggart:	Andrew would be nice :P
[13:57]	Xanshin Paz:	2) pass...neutral
[13:58]	Xanshin Paz:	3) your call, Zero
[13:58]	Zero Linden:	Ah - that's another option, I suppose, I could have guest developers here
[13:58]	Tao Takashi:	that might be good
[13:58]	Xanshin Paz:	that'd be interesting
[13:58]	Tao Takashi:	so we see who rocks and those gonna have their own office hours then ;-)
[13:58]	Gigs Taggart:	This is a lot better than technical town halls.
[13:58]	Gigs Taggart:	too much noise there
[13:59]	Zha Ewry:	This is tech people
[13:59]	Tao Takashi:	well, part of the problems with townhalls is probably also that they do not happen that often
[13:59]	Zha Ewry:	Not random citizens
[13:59]	Zha Ewry:	It makes a difference :-)
[13:59]	Tao Takashi:	yep
[13:59]	Zero Linden:	True - I hope I've done enough to establish this as a place to talk about the technical side of SL, not to come ask about paritcular smaller problems
[13:59]	Zha Ewry:	Wel.. So far, it looks techy to mee
[13:59]	Tao Takashi:	I think you do a great job here :)
[14:00]	Fate Garden:	1) definitely not ~ 2) yes please ~ 3) sure, post a couple of topics but leave a little time for open discussion as well
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	Though the first session I did get my share of "my inventory is broken"... which I empathize with, but I'm not the right forum for that problem
[14:00]	Fate Garden:	well yes if you bring the odd developers and bug hunters here that'll work too
[14:00]	Fate Garden:	we like brent and kelly
[14:00]	Fate Garden:	and steve
[14:01]	Fate Garden:	steve should host office hours five times a week
[14:01]	Tao Takashi:	Brent explained nicely to us from where all those random bugs like that have their origin, so bring him ;-)
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	Okay - Kelly Linden has expressed interest - so I'll let him know he is welcome
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	I'll keep you up-to-day with appearances via my wiki home page
[14:01]	Tao Takashi:	yeah, kelly would be nice
[14:01]	Zero Linden:	Fate - Steve does have to code some times..... :-)
[14:01]	Zha Ewry:	Very welcome
[14:01]	Tao Takashi:	I thought coding is outsourced ;-)
[14:02]	Gigs Taggart:	hehe outsourced to us opensl slaves
[14:02]	Tao Takashi:	heh :)
[14:02]	Zero Linden:	That *was* the plan.. but geeze.... hurry up, will ya?
[14:02]	Zha Ewry:	And, Zero, tell them most of us don't bite :-)
[14:03]	Tao Takashi:	tell them we are not a townhall ;-)
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	he he
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	I will -
[14:03]	Gigs Taggart:	well you know, if you'd whip harder we'd get more done
[14:03]	Zha Ewry:	We actually understand this is hard.
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	okay all, 2pm it is and I have a HTTP bug to debug
[14:03]	Zha Ewry:	Thanks as always Zero...
[14:03]	Tao Takashi:	and I need to get rid of my jetlag
[14:03]	Gigs Taggart:	yep, thanks
[14:03]	Emzy Enzyme:	tnx Zero
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	Later!
[14:03]	Tao Takashi:	got up 30 hours ago in SF I think
[14:03]	Zero Linden:	Thanks for coming.
[14:03]	Tao Takashi:	later Zero