User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 July 17

• [8:31] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
• [8:31] Rex Cronon: hi tree
• [8:31] Siddhartha Fonda: hi Rex
• [8:31] Rex Cronon: hi sidd
• [8:31] Tree Kyomoon: hey there Saij
• [8:32] Siddhartha Fonda: hi Saij
• [8:32] Rex Cronon: h4 might be good for gaming, if it were running locally:)
• [8:32] Tree Kyomoon: wonders if Saij eventually did get hired by LL, if he would keep his name anyway...as "saij linden" just doesnt have the same ring
• [8:32] Tree Kyomoon: hah good point rex
• [8:33] Tree Kyomoon: Ive been playing portal and half life lateley, so really getting to see the power of havok
• [8:33] Rex Cronon: imagine playing that in sl. now that, would be very cool:)
• [8:34] Tree Kyomoon: I know. I heard someone actually made a portal gun for SL but I havent seen it yet
• [8:35] Rex Cronon: if it were possible to animate linked sets as u do avatars...
• [8:36] Tree Kyomoon: It would definitely be tricky. One thing that floored me was the sheer number of people in the credits for half life. There must have been 500 people working on that game
• [8:36] Lecalat Starbrook: Hello.
• [8:36] Rex Cronon: hi
• [8:36] Tree Kyomoon: imagine if you put that much money and resources into a sim build
• [8:36] Lecalat Starbrook: At I at the right place - Zero Lindens office hours?
• [8:36] Rex Cronon: yes lecalat
• [8:36] BigMike Bukowski: Hmm any seats open?
• [8:37] BigMike Bukowski: don't want to sit on anyone, lol
• [8:37] Rex Cronon: first come first sitted bibmike:)
• [8:37] Saijanai Kuhn: he' susually not this late though
• [8:37] Rex Cronon: bigmik*
• [8:37] Rex Cronon: bigmike*
• [8:37] Rex Cronon: sorry, sims typos love me:)
• [8:37] Saijanai Kuhn: and Zha isn't here either. Hmmmm
• [8:38] BigMike Bukowski: I can get up and do a song and dance while we wait.
• [8:38] Tree Kyomoon: i heard those ergonomic keyboards help with typos
• [8:38] BigMike Bukowski: Or takl about the mysterious time dilation in one of the dalliez.
• [8:38] BigMike Bukowski: sims
• [8:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha says zha is running late, but zero is supposed to be here
• [8:38] Rex Cronon: laptop here tree:)
• [8:39] Adam Zaius: I do have to say, the pose on this chair is rather ... gay.
• [8:39] Lecalat Starbrook: I was just thinking about this sit animation also... it's a bit "busy", so to say... my av keeps twitching...
• [8:39] Tree Kyomoon: incoming
• [8:39] Tree Kyomoon: zero
• [8:39] Rex Cronon: i think that might be a womans sit
• [8:40] Saijanai Kuhn: Good Morning Teacher
• [8:40] Rex Cronon: they should come marked: womens only, mens only, unisex:)
• [8:40] BigMike Bukowski: Hello Mr. Zero :)
• [8:40] Zero Linden: Gosh - I wish it were a mellow day
• [8:40] Tree Kyomoon: or have a menu
• [8:40] Lecalat Starbrook: I guess I'm a bit happier like this...
• [8:40] Zero Linden: I've got a non-stop day that's barely started
• [8:40] Rex Cronon: hello zero
• [8:40] Goldie Katsu: lol me too
• [8:40] Goldie Katsu: Morning!
• [8:40] Stargate Tone: hello all *
• [8:40] Goldie Katsu: I hope the coffee is at least good. :)
• [8:41] Rex Cronon: hi
• [8:41] Tree Kyomoon: ooo im getting lots of packets out of order..
• [8:42] Zero Linden: silly interent protocol -
• [8:42] Zero Linden: who was the bright bulb that get the routers the right to reorder?
• [8:42] Adam Zaius: haha
• [8:42] Saijanai Kuhn: we/ve been looking at UDP and pyogp. Great fun
• [8:42] Zero Linden: ouch - sorry
• [8:42] Tree Kyomoon: heh heh
• [8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: I spent days picking John Hurliman's brain about UDP handling. If you have any questions on the subject, you can just ask...
• [8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: John Hurliman
• [8:43] Zero Linden: or - gasp - me
• [8:43] Zero Linden: or - Babbage
• [8:43] Zero Linden: or - Tess
• [8:43] BigMike Bukowski: *shudders at memories of cisco stuff with UDP and TCP*
• [8:43] Saijanai Kuhn: he was in IRC more often
• [8:43] Adam Zaius: I know a bit about it too.
• [8:44] Zero Linden: So - topics for today?
• [8:44] Tree Kyomoon: /any new words on cookies ? :)
• [8:45] Saijanai Kuhn: do you have an answer yet about the TOS clarification for off-SL sim copying?
• [8:45] Goldie Katsu: chocolate chip, or biscott?
• [8:45] Saijanai Kuhn: prim* copying
• [8:45] Tree Kyomoon: http header flavored kinds
• [8:45] Adam Zaius: Actually, a TOS clarification there would be good - I'd like to know if I can export content that I have created myself.
• [8:45] Goldie Katsu: thinks she needs coffee so she can actually type
• [8:46] Saijanai Kuhn: Adam, at the least, you know that LL will never get a DCA compliant...
• [8:46] Adam Zaius: There's legal hours now?
• [8:46] Zero Linden: no, I don't think laywers do office hours - though I could ask 'em to....
• [8:46] Zero Linden: Sai - I did ask them for you
• [8:47] BigMike Bukowski: Law and Order: SL Division?
• [8:47] Zero Linden: that was only last week - they've acknowledged the general field of issues
• [8:47] Adam Zaius: I have a Zha on my lap. :D
• [8:47] Goldie Katsu:  :)
• [8:47] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, ok. The wheels of justice grind slowly
• [8:47] Zero Linden: when they do - I'll have to have them here to answer
• [8:47] Zero Linden: IANAL and all
• [8:47] Zha Ewry: Bring your own beanbag ;-)
• [8:48] Tree Kyomoon: /heh heh
• [8:48] Carlos Roundel: hi
• [8:48] Saijanai Kuhn: we can spam al the non-tech groups and leave 'em in Pooley to fend for themselves...
• [8:49] Zero Linden: ah - I should put out the new beanbags... thanks to a fix in sculpty map scripting, they no longer have the giant phantom prim
• [8:49] Zero Linden: (chaning sculpty map via LSL used to unsite)
• [8:49] Zero Linden: *unsit
• [8:49] Zha Ewry: Cool
• [8:49] Tree Kyomoon: quietly cheers the sculpty map fix
• [8:49] Adam Zaius: Hey question: Another linden suggested this a while back, but why dont we have the next set of interop office hours on osgrid?
• [8:50] Zero Linden: Okay - so last time we talked quite a bit about keeping a clear division between agent domain and region domain
• [8:50] BigMike Bukowski: That sounds fun.
• [8:51] Saijanai Kuhn: Ah, 'tis Zha's chair with that issue. Tree's chair doesnt' have it
• [8:51] Saijanai Kuhn: It also lets you right lclick on the avatar whle they're in the chair. That didn't work a while back
• [8:51] Zero Linden: Adam - that's an idea - perhaps we'd hold one of the AWGroupies hours there? I'll come
• [8:52] Zero Linden: This time I want to talk about aspects that we might "liberate" from the domain - that is
• [8:52] Zero Linden: imagine inventory --
• [8:52] Zero Linden: it is not unreasonable for us to imagine something like "region domain specific inventory"
• [8:52] Rex Cronon: crashed:(
• [8:52] Zero Linden: for example: You go to "World of Peacecraft", and when you look in your inventory
• [8:53] Zero Linden: you have a "Staff of Claming" and a "Mask of Compassion"
• [8:53] Zero Linden: but these items are only available with WoP (alas....)
• [8:53] Zero Linden: "Staff of Calming" ----
• [8:53] Zero Linden: ("Staff of Clamming" is from World of Fishcraft)
• [8:54] Tree Kyomoon: lol
• [8:54] DisQ Hern: Could that be setting that can be changed by the user? So I could set where this product can be available?
• [8:54] XLR8RRICK Hudson: to take things to another world we should Pack a suitcase with a limit to how much to take
• [8:54] Adam Zaius: Hrrm
• [8:54] DisQ Hern: a* setting :)
• [8:54] Tao Takashi: Hi
• [8:54] Adam Zaius: What about resource URL/Is?
• [8:54] Zero Linden: Well, I'd like to focus not on the permissions aspects today
• [8:54] Squirrel Wood: I would want to bring my Axe of Whoopass with me :p
• [8:55] Zero Linden: but on the "where the heck is this inventory" in th eprotocol
• [8:55] Tree Kyomoon: the classic problem is how is the inventory rendered in world of fishcraft, vs world of sewing craft, vs world of flash craft
• [8:55] Adam Zaius: somewhere.com/something/resource.xml = <xml><inventory item asseturi="xx" /></xml>
• [8:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Can of Whoopass
• [8:55] Zha Ewry: You'
• [8:55] DisQ Hern: Could you 'see' the inventory but see it isn't available in the world you are currently in? Or would just not see it at all if it is not available?
• [8:55] Adam Zaius: Then the region can pass to the user "here's a url full of stuffs"
• [8:55] Zha Ewry: e two issues, how you manage the sets of pointers, and how you get from those to the assts
• [8:55] Adam Zaius: likewise, the agent domain passes you something similar when you request your own inventory
• [8:55] Tree Kyomoon: Id want to bring my portal gun into SL
• [8:55] Zero Linden: So ... what happens from the viewer and protocol perspective?
• [8:56] Zero Linden: Is it something like:
• [8:56] Zha Ewry: and. some nesting/manging fun
• [8:56] Siddhartha Fonda: somewhere as in , presumably there's a database somewhere this URL is point to, i know, rudimentary, but
• [8:56] Adam Zaius: Well, assets being UUIDs has always struck me as a silly - we should be using just plain jane URLs there.
• [8:56] Tree Kyomoon: /impulse 101
• [8:56] Tree Kyomoon: /darn
• [8:56] Zero Linden: 1) Viewer -> Region, do you have an agent domain too?
• [8:56] Zero Linden: R->V, sure, I do, and here's a cap to it
• [8:57] Zero Linden: V->Agent Domain: Hey, I know I'm an agent from Elsewhere.com, but do you have an account for me too?
• [8:57] Zero Linden: A->V: Sure, here's a seed cap - check out the inventory for cool masks and staffs
• [8:57] Zero Linden: V->A: Gimme da inventory- cool
• [8:57] Siddhartha Fonda: uuid makes sense in a closed env. i suppose
• [8:57] Zero Linden: OR
• [8:57] Zero Linden: is it
• [8:57] Siddhartha Fonda: realizes he needs to read the caps docs
• [8:57] Zero Linden: a) Viewer -> Region: Do you support inventory protocol?
• [8:58] Zero Linden: R->V: Yup, here's the ivnentory seed
• [8:58] Zero Linden: V->R: Cool - let me see that inventory
• [8:58] Adam Zaius: I like #2 personally.
• [8:58] Zero Linden: I do too....
• [8:58] Goldie Katsu: I do three
• [8:58] Siddhartha Fonda: does an asset DB need to fall in one of those domains or is it just a db somewhere
• [8:58] DisQ Hern: at first glance I like option 2 as well, but what are the drawbacks? :)
• [8:58] Saijanai Kuhn: The first is more flexible. ALlows for inventory, group IM, and some region-specific stuff to be found all through one process
• [8:58] Rex Cronon: hi
• [8:58] Adam Zaius: What if we dont make it "Do you support inventory protocol" but "What else do you have?" which returns back a list.
• [8:59] Tao Takashi: Maybe I missed the beginning, but why does a region need inventory services?
• [8:59] Zha Ewry: I'd lke any folder, to be a "This folder is from URL,X" where X, is a asset server
• [8:59] Zero Linden: it allows the region to also choose what sort of inventory: It could construct per-agent inventory on the fly and keep it, or only offer read-only common, per region inventory
• [8:59] Saijanai Kuhn: it also lets non-hosting Agent Domains keep track of things the same way the hosting Agent Domain does
• [8:59] Zero Linden: or, for that matter, offer a root folder that has subsection of each
• [8:59] Adam Zaius: Well, a user can be a member of multiple agent domains - so anything needed there could be handled by joining an extra agent domain, no?
• [9:00] Siddhartha Fonda: fascinating
• [9:00] Siddhartha Fonda: er, well, mind-boggling is more like it :)
• [9:00] Zero Linden: The only value to 1) is that it offers the full range of "agent domain services" (sans identity, since the agent already has an identity), whereas for 2) we'd need to identify those
• [9:00] Zero Linden: protocols that are separable like this
• [9:00] Saijanai Kuhn: you can only have ONE true Agent DOmain per avatar. All others need to be copies, or you have Man in the Middle attacks using Agent DOmains
• [9:00] Zha Ewry: I think basically, done right, invenotry, ouught to look a lot like any other asset, nested handles of stuff, with a scheme for saying, "Down this brance, you have to fetch from X"
• [9:01] Zero Linden: In the original conception (as shown on the slide behind my head)
• [9:01] Goldie Katsu: I guess a question iis how does the asset utility keep track of agent permissions without an agent domain associated to it, must it trust multiple agent domains?
• [9:01] Zha Ewry: (and, if you're not currently authorized (due to having not logged into the domain holding X) you'll get a failure, which the client can manage fro you like any other tauht issue
• [9:01] Zero Linden: There would be one "true" or "home" agent domain, and and agent could have "accounts" on other agent domains
• [9:02] Saijanai Kuhn: But, should you even be able to manipulate folders of Worlds of FIshcraft-only items, when you're not "hooked" to the FIshcraft asset server
• [9:02] Zero Linden: The down side of that model is that I'm very worried it will induce every grid operator to force you to get an account
• [9:02] Zero Linden: which would be a failure
• [9:02] Zero Linden: wheresa the #2 secenario is much cleaner for the user
• [9:02] Tree Kyomoon: is this where you might attach your inventory to open id or something?
• [9:02] Zero Linden: as the region domain itself basically creates any per-agent storage on the fly if it wants to
• [9:03] DisQ Hern: so, #2 it is then :)
• [9:03] Zha Ewry: There is a fascinating tension between, "make it seamless" and "allow domains to control thier destiny"
• [9:03] Zero Linden: Now - are there other things that fall into that category?
• [9:03] Tao Takashi: I would be against attaching something to openid, it could be used as one means of authentication but if you attach things to it then you can also match people across systems
• [9:03] Saijanai Kuhn: thing is, is it cleaner for the user?
• [9:03] Cane Janick: yes
• [9:04] Tao Takashi: so that means I have local inventory on regions?
• [9:04] Saijanai Kuhn: because you can have region-specific inventory, region-secific group IM, region specific something-we-haven't-thought-of-yet
• [9:04] Adam Zaius: You dont nessecarily need an account with each agent domain
• [9:04] Zero Linden: The only hitch I don't know how to do so far is.... can a region domain give access to that inventory to you even if you are not there
• [9:04] Adam Zaius: What if we consider the prospect of temporary session accounts?
• [9:04] Adam Zaius: Login to the sim, it creates a session agent domain for you
• [9:05] Zero Linden: Adam - I'd go strong: You don't *want* and account with each grid
• [9:05] Zero Linden: *stonger
• [9:05] Zha Ewry: I don't see why not, Zero, it's merely a matter of getting a cap, with a trust path to it
• [9:05] Zero Linden: *stronger
• [9:05] Tao Takashi: but I thougt my agent domain talks then to any region it needs to (where I am)
• [9:05] Zero Linden: (more coffee is clearly indicated)
• [9:05] Saijanai Kuhn: goes back to login being three parts: credentials: region specific stuff, rez-avatar
• [9:05] Zero Linden: (stayed up too late watching three Korean professionals play simul-Go in Palo Alto)
• [9:05] Saijanai Kuhn: and TP, requires you to do region-specific stuff when switching to a new Region Domain
• [9:06] Zero Linden: Zha - well, a long lived cap - which leads me to think that we should attack a general concept of lifetime to the cap information when it is handed back from a seed
• [9:06] Zero Linden: or perhaps when it is requested
• [9:06] Zero Linden: or both
• [9:06] Zha Ewry: Leases
• [9:06] Zha Ewry: Various lengths
• [9:06] Zha Ewry: I am a huge fan of lease models, for this sort of thing
• [9:07] Zero Linden: Adam - so the #2 design tries to avoid the explicit concept of the "agent domain account" in the protocol ... if that is how some system is implemented, sure
• [9:07] Zha Ewry: and.. can tie very nicely into Which's chttp work
• [9:07] Zero Linden: but int he protocol it is just "well, the region domain is offering me inventory protocol"
• [9:08] Adam Zaius: That's why I figured a "give me a whole bunch of stuff" message might be the way to go
• [9:08] Adam Zaius: then it can return back links to inventory providers, agent domains, etc.
• [9:09] Zha Ewry: In general, I'd like inventory providers, to be nothign more thsan asset servers returning a special type of asset
• [9:10] Zero Linden: We were trying to think of other things, besides Inventory that a a region you are ag mgith want to provide
• [9:10] Zha Ewry: I'm not seeing why they have terribly special standing
• [9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: group IM comes to mind
• [9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: peer-to-peer services
• [9:10] Zero Linden: normally hates rez-effects, but that one was cool!
• [9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: welcome to the SETI computer-grid grid
• [9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: Or Bob's collaborative jam session sim
• [9:12] Saijanai Kuhn: where each client passes MIDI info directy to all the otehr clients instead of to the sim
• [9:13] Zero Linden: well - I think of inventory as a tree of URLs, each is a small resource, which in turn contains the URL of an asset
• [9:13] Zero Linden: the asset's themselves are not in a tree
• [9:13] Zero Linden: and could be shared
• [9:13] Saijanai Kuhn: as exampl.es of things other than inventory that a sim might have to deal with
• [9:14] Zero Linden: usually, the inventory URL/resource tree is dynamically generated from a more efficient, internal DB storage
• [9:14] Zero Linden: whereas the assets are really served directly from a simply HTTP (or WebDAV) store
• [9:16] Tree Kyomoon: test test
• [9:16] Adam Zaius: Zero: doesnt preclude using the same schema in the protocol though
• [9:16] Rex Cronon: for a sec i thought i crashed again
• [9:16] Adam Zaius: What if we call inventory something like WebDAV, where you write into subfolders
• [9:17] Tree Kyomoon: evidently a moment of silence for the web dav store
• [9:17] Adam Zaius: IE: root/x/y = [1]
• [9:17] Zha Ewry: I think that the tree, is basically, going to have some intermediate notes, which cause subordinat fetches
• [9:17] Zero Linden: Adam, no, I just wanted to point out that to enable split (inventory / asset) implementation, we have an extra level of indirection - the intenvory item isn't the asset itself, it points to the asset
• [9:17] Zha Ewry: I really cn't see avoiding that
• [9:17] Adam Zaius: Well, fetching the entire inventory store at once is impractical
• [9:17] Zha Ewry: and. no, its should be inidrection, all the way down
• [9:18] Zha Ewry: You don't possibnly want items in your invenotry, just references
• [9:18] Zero Linden: Every problem in computer science can be solved by adding a level of indirection...
• [9:18] Zero Linden: ...or so I'm told.
• [9:18] Zha Ewry: chuckles
• [9:18] Zha Ewry: referes Zero to a text on virtualization
• [9:18] Saijanai Kuhn: conemplates a tree of references larger than the data it references...
• [9:18] XLR8RRICK Hudson: there are no Problems only oppertunites to fix things
• [9:19] Adam Zaius: Well, I wasnt thinking storing the assets in inventory - although you COULD use a 302/303 redirect to get at them
• [9:19] Adam Zaius: Actually.
• [9:19] Adam Zaius: A 303 redirect from inventory folders might not be a bad idea.
• [9:19] Zha Ewry: You could, Adam, but.. ICK.
• [9:19] Adam Zaius: Wait no.
• [9:19] Adam Zaius: We need metadata too, forgot.
• [9:19] Zha Ewry: You'd have to..
• [9:19] Zha Ewry: Oh.
• [9:19] Zha Ewry: Yep
• [9:19] Zero Linden: yes - we've found that redirect handling is, well, funky at best
• [9:19] Zha Ewry: there you go
• [9:19] Zha Ewry: The metadata
• [9:20] Zero Linden: right - and I don't think stuffing the metadata here into HTTP headers is right at all
• [9:20] Zha Ewry: andl also some things go very odd with redirectin in some bits of the http infrastrcture
• [9:20] Zero Linden: so - two fetches - one for the inventory metadata, one for the asset
• [9:20] Zero Linden: but this is good - the asset one is quite cacheable
• [9:20] Zha Ewry: VERY
• [9:20] Zha Ewry: likes cachable
• [9:21] Zero Linden: (oy - the AC is out in the Mtn. View office... we are begining to bake here...)
• [9:21] Zero Linden: so - inventory can be handled like this --
• [9:21] Zero Linden: group chat? or did you mean groups in general
• [9:22] Zero Linden: "World of Peacecraft" has a collection of "Elder Councils" ?
• [9:22] And Clawtooth: im out of loop on world of peacecraft
• [9:23] Zero Linden: (WoP is a name of a ficticious Region Domain)
• [9:23] Tree Kyomoon: "world of dentist craft" has the Elder Tonsils of course
• [9:23] Saijanai Kuhn: was just leaving...
• [9:23] Zero Linden: groans
• [9:24] Tree Kyomoon: sorry about that...drive by keyboard punster
• [9:24] Rex Cronon: u made everybody cringe tree:)
• [9:26] Zero Linden: anything besides groups?
• [9:26] Saijanai Kuhn: like I said, stuff we haven't thought of, like P2P enabling
• [9:27] Goldie Katsu: Do you find teeth of wisdom there?
• [9:27] Goldie Katsu: (And they have Dental Mentors)
• [9:27] hawe Snoodle: yo r u ordering pizza
• [9:27] Cane Janick: Ut oh I feel where this is going
• [9:28] Tree Kyomoon: hehh hehe
• [9:28] hawe Snoodle: Bad Malaysia
• [9:28] Zero Linden: sorry - had to deal with AC outage...
• [9:29] Zha Ewry: The problem, with world of peacecraft, is, the quest chains. "Stopping war, pat 67, "yes, we want to negotiate, but first, we must provide canapes for the negotiaters. Take this chit to the accounting department, and get approval for a general assortment of culturally acceptable treats. You'll find auditor smithson in the firth floor of the accounting building."
• [9:29] Zero Linden: This is why WoP lost out to WoW....
• [9:29] Goldie Katsu: falls over laughing
• [9:30] Tree Kyomoon: Id like to see world of accounting craft. Then we could launch the crimson permanent insurance
• [9:30] Rex Cronon: accounting problems?
• [9:30] Zha Ewry: nods, that, and the final reward of the 78 set chain is a "Diplomatic keychain with accers to the diplomatic lounge"
• [9:30] Zero Linden: okay - can tell it's summer
• [9:30] Zero Linden: it is also 9:30
• [9:30] Zha Ewry: So... Back to inventory?
• [9:30] Zero Linden: and so
• [9:31] Saijanai Kuhn: is as serious as ever...
• [9:31] Zero Linden: seems like a good time to stop
• [9:31] Zero Linden: but actually
• [9:31] Zero Linden: this was very very good for me - because I think we now have clarity on how to handle this
• [9:31] Zha Ewry: So.. Adam? Let's talk about hosting AWGroupies on OSGrid?
• [9:31] Zero Linden: and it will make the formalism (of AD/RD) more clear
• [9:31] Adam Zaius: Zha: just grab Wright Plaza when we want/need it?
• [9:31] Zero Linden: I'm going to run now
• [9:31] Zero Linden: thanks for coming
• [9:31] Zha Ewry: Super
• [9:31] Cane Janick: thx
• [9:31] Saijanai Kuhn: wants to remind Pythonistas of [2]
• [9:32] Zha Ewry: I'll mention that next weekk, and we can do it in aabout 10 days?
• [9:32] Tree Kyomoon: good to see you zero I will post the transcript if no one objects
• [9:32] Goldie Katsu: Thanks Zero!
• [9:32] Zha Ewry: Make sure everyone knows to get registred, and figure out how to get to WP