User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 May 27

• [13:03] Jeb Gibb: Hey Ping
• [13:04] Zero Linden: hello all
• [13:04] Bart Heart: Hello Zero
• [13:04] Jeb Gibb: Hey Zero
• [13:04] Caemlyn Witherspoon: Hi! Do we bow or anything? This is only my 2nd Linden meeting.
• [13:04] Leffard Lassard: Hi Zero.
• [13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: For folks that missed it, AW Groupies chat log: [1]
• [13:05] Zero Linden: no, no bowing - unless that is your cultures preferred way of greeting!
• [13:05] Arawn Spitteler: It's done with /bow, but most lindens have seen that already.
• [13:05] [[User:D-HUD(8.6) [script--]|D-HUD(8.6) [script--]]]: Script run-time error
• [13:05] [[User:D-HUD(8.6) [script--]|D-HUD(8.6) [script--]]]: Stack-Heap Collision
• [13:05] Caemlyn Witherspoon: lol
• [13:05] Zero Linden: So -
• [13:05] Kurt Stringer: Zero - new threads?
• [13:05] Zero Linden: welcome to my office hours all
• [13:05] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
• [13:06] Rex Cronon: hi zero
• [13:06] Jeb Gibb: Hello Rex
• [13:06] Gulliver Linden: pardon!
• [13:06] Pingdog Stiefelman: ty for ahving us
• [13:06] Jeb Gibb: hey Gulliver
• [13:06] Zero Linden: for the benefit of anyone here who's new
• [13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha was out of the coutnry, so I basically gave oan intro to AWG for a bunch of newcomers, Zero
• [13:06] Zero Linden: we are here to talk about the architecture of SL - present and future
• [13:06] Zero Linden: I take agenda items up front (lay it on me...)
• [13:06] Zero Linden: The transcripts are posted to the public wiki -
• [13:06] Zero Linden: so speak in public, and speak freely
• [13:06] Caemlyn Witherspoon: I second what Bart said
• [13:07] Zero Linden: And, we conduct the meeting in chat - rather than voice
• [13:07] Zero Linden: so that we can have a transcript
• [13:07] Bart Heart: Group
• [13:07] Bart Heart: and Group chat
• [13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, Alissa Sabre m,entioned the MPEG-21 and their permisions expression language looks useful in the long run
• [13:07] Zero Linden: (becuase I'm sure at least half of you are reading Xkcd while you're here....
• [13:07] Zero Linden: ....or at least you should be!)
• [13:07] Rex Cronon: Xkcd ?
• [13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: Rights Expression Language [2]
• [13:08] SignpostMarv Martin: [3]
• [13:08] Rex Cronon: thanks
• [13:08] Jeb Gibb: Hey Tippi
• [13:08] Zero Linden: for example: [4]
• [13:08] Tippi Dagger: Hello.
• [13:08] Tippi Dagger: jeb
• [13:09] Zero Linden: I bit scheduling
• [13:09] invisible: All: Go
• [13:09] Rex Cronon: hi
• [13:09] Zero Linden: Samuel Linden was going to be here today to talk about future ideas and plans for Media
• [13:09] Zero Linden: but he needed to reschedule for
• [13:09] Zero Linden: this Thursday
• [13:09] Zero Linden: 8:30am....
• [13:09] Zero Linden: (normal time)
• [13:10] Zero Linden: Now - agenda items for today? I've got REL from above in chat
• [13:10] Zero Linden: others?
• [13:10] Zero Linden: I can add OGP teleport protocol
• [13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: test harness if Enus or tao makes it
• [13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: cause I haven't done anything with it
• [13:11] Andrew Hughes: hi everyone. :)
• [13:12] Rex Cronon: hi andrew
• [13:12] Arawn Spitteler: isn't Everyone: Hi, andreww
• [13:12] Zero Linden: good - so - Saijani, let's begin
• [13:12] Rex Cronon: hi arawn
• [13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: KK
• [13:12] Zero Linden: wuz up with this MPEG-21 thing?
• [13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: just looked at the MPEG21 its kinda sketchy but the concept seems useful. A computer-readable text description of permissions, conditions and so on.
• [13:13] Zero Linden: Is it ipart of a spec?
• [13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: Seems to me that the LL permissions system could be defined that way
• [13:13] Zero Linden: or are they considering it?
• [13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: its about the most complete part of hte spec so far
• [13:14] Zero Linden: I've also just heard about MPEG-V - which seems like they're getting a jump on things....
• [13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: [5]
• [13:14] SignpostMarv Martin: clarification: MPEG-V is not MPEG-5 :-P
• [13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: V is for virtual. Its their own private name, not an official thing yet. MPEG 21 is an ofificial thing
• [13:15] Zero Linden: only gets a little scared reading parts of the MPEG-21 spec that read: "The dictionary is based on a logical model, the Context Model, which is the basis of the dictionary ontology. The model is described in detail in the specification. It is based on the use of verbs which are contextualised so that a dictionary created with it can be as extensible and granular are required."
• [13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: I think that the Japanese are the most involved at this point...
• [13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: something called RC 21
• [13:16] Zero Linden: We are going to need a sort of place between a totally abstract description model (like this is), and one that is grounded in what exact permissions people will use
• [13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: but the REL concept looks useful
• [13:16] Bart Heart: OMG Im lost already, Zero or anyone could you point me in the direction of where we could get info about the group issue with chat peoblems, or what Lindens office hours to go to.
• [13:16] Zero Linden: in this space, we have a need for a large number of people to deeply understand the permissions system
• [13:17] Zero Linden: consider how much trouble the current simple system gives
• [13:17] Zero Linden: the system like that in MPEG-21 seems likely to be authored by larger organizations with lawyers, and interpreted by media software....
• [13:17] Zero Linden: there is little user to user interaction in that sort of thing
• [13:18] Zero Linden: So, while I agree, it looks interesting -
• [13:18] Gulliver Linden: it reminds me a bit of P3P
• [13:18] Zero Linden: I think we should use such a thing for inspiration, rather than adoption...
• [13:18] Zero Linden: though I could be wrong....
• [13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: true, just thinking that in th elong run, the ability to express the LL system using REL will be useful
• [13:18] Zero Linden: Yes, I'd agree with that, certainly
• [13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: and maybe some way to parse some other grid's REL for compatibility
• [13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: there's not enough meat int eh MPEG-21 togo much further than that I'm afraid
• [13:19] Arawn Spitteler: thinks: Bart might like Witch or Kate's Hours, but I can't get my sites up on Firefox, at the moment.
• [13:19] Zero Linden: I'm going to give you all fair warning: Next month I'm going to start digging for more discussion about permissions
• [13:20] Caemlyn Witherspoon: Pardon the interruption...Is this the correct Office hours to talk about Group chat problems or is there another upcoming one that wil address concerns regarding that
• [13:20] Zero Linden: But, I'm going to be deeply invested in it not turning into a religous war over approaches.....
• [13:20] Bart Heart: Thanks Arawn, I think I got off the bus at the wrong stop here
• [13:21] Dahlia Trimble: Caemlyn, if you find one I'd like to attend
• [13:21] Zero Linden: Caemlyn - we don't discuss particular bugs here, nor does this serve as a conduit to reporting --- we sometimes discuss them in light of the interesting architectural challenges they present
• [13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: admires Zero's understatement concernign chatIM
• [13:21] Zero Linden: So - I hope you'll spend some time thinking about permissions in an open virtual world, and we'll start discussing that in depth soon.
• [13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: "interesting architectural challenges ..."
• [13:22] Caemlyn Witherspoon: TY for tolerating us peons with no coding lnowledge. Have a great day. Excuse us as we quietly ease out the door. Good day. Dahlia I will write your name dwn and IM you if I do.
• [13:22] Rex Cronon: lol
• [13:22] Bart Heart: Thanks everyone for your time in helping point us in the right direction
• [13:22] Zero Linden: Okay - so we'll keep REL on the list of things to keep in mind
• [13:22] Zero Linden: thanks for ferreting out, Saijani
• [13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: np. It loked potentially useful at some point
• [13:23] Caemlyn Witherspoon: steals some free refreshments on the way out.
• [13:23] Jeb Gibb: lol
• [13:23] Bart Heart: lol
• [13:23] Tippi Dagger: lol
• [13:24] Zero Linden: okay -
• [13:24] Zero Linden: teleport and OGP
• [13:24] Zero Linden: so - have folks found this: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman
• [13:24] Zero Linden: This is the current thinking on the Teleport protocol
• [13:25] Zero Linden: modulo some small changes that we worked on Thursday that haven't made it into those diagrams
• [13:25] Zero Linden: We are also still working on the failure mode analysis -
• [13:25] Zero Linden: seeing if the protocol reasonably recovers in light of the failure modes messages over HTTP can induce
• [13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: still have "add circuit code as being a viewer thing. Its a server to server thing
• [13:26] Zero Linden: ah - I've been ignoring the "historical" slide - but I beleive you are right
• [13:27] Saijanai Kuhn: double checked my python script and with jhurliman an d periapse checked on his side too
• [13:27] Saijanai Kuhn: though I don't know if it changes that new diagram any
• [13:27] Dahlia Trimble: how does the teleporting (or logging) agent receive appearance for other avatars in your diagram?
• [13:28] Zero Linden: Dahlia
• [13:28] Zero Linden: that information is streamed from the region, once you are connected, like object and land data
• [13:29] Dahlia Trimble: so its not shown here? or the request?
• [13:29] Dahlia Trimble: or a more global request?
• [13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: still not sure about how child regions are going to be handled from this
• [13:31] Zero Linden: Dahlia - there is *a lot* not shown here :-)
• [13:31] Dahlia Trimble: lol ;)
• [13:31] Zero Linden: So, there is existing protocol for child cameras, and this other info - it all comes over the existing UDP and TPC/Seed Cap channels
• [13:31] Zero Linden: these messages set those up
• [13:31] Zero Linden: so any protocol that hasn't yet been redesigned for OGP
• [13:31] Zero Linden: just continues to go "the old way"
• [13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK. Just wondering about how secure this will be if the agent domain isn't involved, or will that be taken care of down the line?
• [13:32] Zero Linden: you mean for neighbors (child cams)?
• [13:32] Zero Linden: The agent domain *IS* involved
• [13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: right.
• [13:32] Zero Linden: oh
• [13:32] Zero Linden: well -
• [13:33] Zero Linden: at this stage of the game - since we've made the constraint
• [13:33] Zero Linden: that neighboring regions must all be in the same region domain
• [13:33] Dahlia Trimble: I was asking because I see a lot of ruthed avatars on login but I can tp away and back and they arent ruthed and I wondered if this may be involved
• [13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: KK makes sense
• [13:33] Zero Linden: if the region domain has let you in - then presumably it will be happy to issue you credentials (UDP circuits and seed caps) for neighboring sims
• [13:33] Rex Cronon: if u use rc u see clouds:)
• [13:33] Zero Linden: as for the agent domain - if it has evaluated the trust of the region you are going to
• [13:33] Dahlia Trimble: or clouds ;)
• [13:34] Zero Linden: then that level of trust would simply apply to neighbors
• [13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: right, makes sense
• [13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: and might continue to, though not positive about grid boundries in the future
• [13:34] Zero Linden: Dahlia - It isn't teh TP per se.
• [13:34] Zero Linden: it is that when you arrive, the sim has to send a large chunk of info at you
• [13:35] Zero Linden: via UDP this is prone to, well, packet log-gams
• [13:35] Zero Linden: *log-jams
• [13:35] Zero Linden: and things don't always recover so nice.... (love dem UDP....)
• [13:35] Zero Linden: when you TP away and back,
• [13:35] Zero Linden: your viewer already has a bunch of the data
• [13:35] Zero Linden: so the amount needing to sent is lower
• [13:35] Zero Linden: and is re-requested and re-sent
• [13:35] Dahlia Trimble: ok that makes sense
• [13:35] Zero Linden: often working 2nd time 'round
• [13:36] Zero Linden: one reason to going to resource requests over HTTP
• [13:36] Zero Linden: is that a) it is TCP which does better in a congested environment for data that "has to get there"
• [13:36] Zero Linden: and b) the requestor (viewer in this case) has a more clear notion of when it fails and can retry or know that it isn't gonna get it
• [13:37] Dahlia Trimble: thanks Zero :)
• [13:37] Zero Linden: now one cool thing about this new TP protocol
• [13:38] Zero Linden: is that it is exactly the same for initial TP into a region, TP between regions, region cross, and final logout of a region
• [13:38] Zero Linden: basically two sides are set up to have a "sending" and "receiving" pipe ends for the avtar TP data
• [13:38] Zero Linden: and then it is pumped through
• [13:38] Zero Linden: if the "sending" side is the agent domain itself, you are doing your initial TP
• [13:39] Zero Linden: if the "sending" and "receiving" sides are both regions, it is a normal TP
• [13:39] Zero Linden: and if the "receiving" side is the agent doimain itself, you are logging out and saving your avatar state
• [13:40] Zero Linden: well - I think this is cool - but that just shows you what a nerd I am!
• [13:41] Geo Meek: /is the Joystick flycam working for anyone?
• [13:41] Gulliver Linden: it seems like this is good, b/c login is just a special case of telelport
• [13:41] Leffard Lassard: Does that mean it can be implented as one code piece and can be parametrized as needed?
• [13:41] Tree Kyomoon: Zero is this unprecidented, that is in other online gaming/communcation environments you know of?
• [13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: right. And walking across will just be a more special case also, it seem
• [13:42] Zero Linden: Tree - I ahve no idea
• [13:42] Zero Linden: Leffard - yes I'm pretty sure that sending and receiving sides
• [13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: most other systems are prprietary
• [13:42] Zero Linden: can be written as one peice of code, with no special cases for what kind of teleport you are doing
• [13:43] Zero Linden: The sending code just knows "well, this avatar's agent domain told me to serialize the agent down this pipe.... here I go...."
• [13:43] Zero Linden: it doesn't know or care if the other end is a region or the agent domain itself
• [13:43] Leffard Lassard: Smart :-).
• [13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, neat, this even solves the special case where an aive has to be handed off to the WoW agent domain or moral equivalent
• [13:44] Zero Linden: I think the only real difference with walking across vs. teleporting will have to do with how the viewer chooses to display it.... no black screen
• [13:44] Zero Linden: and continued estimation of velocity and location
• [13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: and scriptissues, but thats all server/AD side
• [13:46] Gulliver Linden: is it understood at this point, when/how RD's will decide if they want to accept and agent?
• [13:47] Dahlia Trimble: wonders if anything could be done to slow down the dead reckoning in the viewer when a sim crossing is delayed
• [13:47] Gulliver Linden: will they call back into the AD to request info, or is that delivered in the request_rez request?
• [13:48] Zero Linden: Well - it isn't the Agent Domain's decision, is it? It is the region domains
• [13:48] Tree Kyomoon: teleporting would be way better if you actually saw a speedy animation of SL below you and you moved to your new location, like on google earth
• [13:48] Zero Linden: so when the region domain first asks the region (and hence the region domain)< "request_rez_avatar"
• [13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: a blurry video and the batman TV show scene change music, Tree
• [13:48] Zero Linden: the region domain can use whatever adminstrative test it wishes to say "sure" or "go away" or "well, you can come, but start here"
• [13:49] Gulliver Linden: nods
• [13:49] Tree Kyomoon: yes, but I think it would give people a much better sense of "the shape of our world"
• [13:49] Zero Linden: doesn't want to think of all the data needed to be downloaded to do that kind of animation.... though suppose the viewer could do it.....
• [13:49] Zero Linden: +1 Saijanai!
• [13:50] Tree Kyomoon: you can compress the voxels using volumetric data compression like they do in the oceanographic science biz
• [13:50] Zero Linden: Dahlia - I'm not sure how one could do a better job of the dead reckoning... it isn't like anyside has much detailed information about how well things are being transfered
• [13:50] Zero Linden: one downside of wrapping things up in layers of protocol....
• [13:50] Tree Kyomoon: visualizing big huge data sets actually isnt that big of a deal
• [13:51] Gulliver Linden: Dahlia: maybe the protocol could support a kind of "prefetching". i.e., get ready for teleport of AV-X to R-Y, but don't do it just yet.
• [13:51] Gulliver Linden: then ADs could do "pre-fetch teleports" into adjacent regions, in the theory that the AV might walk into them soon.
• [13:52] Tree Kyomoon: [6]
• [13:52] Dahlia Trimble: perhaps assume if an update hasnt happened in a while that the avatar hasnt moved quite so far
• [13:53] Dahlia Trimble: or some other sanity check
• [13:53] Zero Linden: Can't say, Dahlia --- haven't looked into that detail....
• [13:53] Zero Linden: In particular, we haven't added the details of update messages back to the viewer to let it know of progress
• [13:55] Zero Linden: well....
• [13:56] Zero Linden: I don't see enus here... so I suppose we'll table discussion of test harnesses
• [13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: I didn't know if either of them was coming today
• [13:56] Zero Linden: then let's wrap
• [13:56] Zero Linden: remember - this Thursday - media with Samuel Linden
• [13:57] Zero Linden: and we'll be back into TP next Tuesday
• [13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: neat
• [13:57] Zero Linden: excellent all
• [13:57] Gulliver Linden: bye folks, thx Zero.
• [13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: Thanks for hosting this, Zero
• [13:57] Zero Linden: thanks for coming
• [13:57] Tree Kyomoon: can someone pass me the transcript?
• [13:57] Rex Cronon: bye gulliver
• [13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: laters Guilliver
• [13:57] Leffard Lassard: Bye Zero and Gulliver.
• [13:57] SignpostMarv Martin: i really need to stop going to meetings and getting dragged into others X-D
• [13:57] Dahlia Trimble: bye :)
• [13:58] Gulliver Linden: 'scuse me Saijanai!
• [13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: np. the stomaqch always gets in the way
• [13:58] Rex Cronon: bye zero
• [13:58] Dahlia Trimble: poofs .. bye all :)