Viewer Evolution User Group/Archive/2011-05-20
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08:01 | Wolfpup | hey Oz |
Ima Mechanique | Twisted, my solution is to revert to the 2.6.9-start tag until someone more knowledgeable fixes it ;-) | |
draconis.neurocam | hello oz | |
Ardy Lay | "doesn't affect LL-released versions. " -- Why not? OpenJPEG vs. KDU? | |
Marianne McCann | Hi Oz | |
Ardy Lay | Hi Oz | |
Oz Linden | Good morning everyone (or whatever part of the day or night it is for you) | |
Wolfpup | Ima the OS comunity might have to get the stub functional to have a 'fix' | |
08:02 | Oz Linden | what doesn't affect our versions? |
The Raptor | just turned morning here :) | |
Ardy Lay | convexdecomposition stub? | |
Jonathan | vwr-25815 | |
Oz Linden | ah | |
Wolfpup | nod ardy | |
Ima Mechanique | the ERROR: LLViewerTextureList::addImageToList: ASSERT (mInitialized) on startup | |
08:03 | Oz Linden | have to track down what's happening with that after this meeting |
Wolfpup | vwr-25815 < so the jira helper posts the link again | |
Twisted Laws | it happens before llviewerwindow is initialized where the init is called | |
Oz Linden | I think it's assigned to me, actually :-( | |
Wolfpup | it is Oz | |
Ima Mechanique | hmm, JIRA helper is too smart Wolf | |
Jonathan | Snowstorm has loaned 2 devs to the mesh team | |
08:04 | Wolfpup | VWR-25815 |
looks like it ima | ||
Ardy Lay | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25815 | |
JIRA-helper | VWR-25815 Crash during viewer startup: LLViewerTextureList::addImageToList | |
Oz Linden | anyway... to our agenda .... | |
Ima Mechanique | jira helper has a memory. better than mine sometimes ;-) | |
08:05 | Oz Linden | We'll go down to do the New Topics first, but before we do, I have a teaser for you.... |
Jonathan | URL of agenda? | |
Oz Linden | my first SL video recording (well, the first one I'm showing to anyone) | |
The Raptor | grats | |
Oz Linden | agenda: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Evolution_User_Group | |
08:06 | This is a video showing crossing between two regions (this one and Hippo Hollow) with different Windlight settings : http://lindens.lindenlab.com/oz/WL_region_crossing.mov | |
08:07 | Jonathan | ooo |
Qie | nice! | |
08:08 | Marianne McCann | Heh... opening that URL in the internal browser shows a Version 1.x style play/pause button. Very cool stuff, though! |
Oz Linden | the actual region boundary is roughly half way across that bridge, so there's a small delay | |
Ima Mechanique | wow, see that moon move | |
Oz Linden | each setting transitions smoothly but quickly | |
Ima Mechanique | looks good | |
08:09 | Ardy Lay | I have mentioned those old buttons but kinda got ignored. |
Marianne McCann | Much nicer than I might have suspected | |
Oz Linden | so a moon that's up will quickly set (as in that video), etc | |
Jonathan | well done | |
Ardy Lay | I like the transition. | |
Oz Linden | We're getting pretty close to being able to put out a project viewer | |
08:10 | Jonathan | How many regions will have this enabled when that project viewer goes out? |
Ardy Lay | Currently, moving form estate to estate with different time of day is an abrupt change. | |
Oz Linden | there are some schedule uncertainties, partly because I loaned a couple of developers to another team | |
08:11 | Actually, all regions already support it in theory, but of course most have only the default settings | |
the project viewer will display any settings from the region (using the region settings is the default, which you can override as now) | ||
08:12 | we're re-doing the interface for editting WL settings so that it's more logically organized and a little simpler | |
Ardy Lay | Windlight settings are per region, not per parcel? | |
08:13 | Oz Linden | per region is all that the servers support |
per parcel would be pretty jarring if you were moving around | ||
Ardy Lay | Yeah, I suppose the per region setting is actually an estate setting then so us mainland dwellers are out of luck. | |
08:14 | Wolfpup | unless the Linden PW's people come through and change it |
Oz Linden | It does require Estate Manager rights, which you don't get on mainland | |
Ardy Lay | Yeah, lots of stuff we don't get even though we have 4 regions. | |
08:15 | Oz Linden | whether or not the Moles will mess with the settings on mainland is anyones guess :-) |
Qie | umm... by any chance, are the estate windlight settings assets that might be exchanged? such that parcel owners (mainland or estate) could "offer them as suggestions" to visitors in some coherent way | |
08:16 | Marianne McCann | I wish, Qie. |
Oz Linden | The first version we release won't support an exchangable setting, but it is something we are designing to support later | |
Qie | okay. that's reassuring. | |
Oz Linden | we just don't want to hold up a release for that | |
Qie | right! :) | |
08:17 | Oz Linden | anyway.... watch this space for other news on that.... |
So ... to New Topics | ||
VWR-4018 Texture animations ignore repeats per face (llTextureAnim()) | ||
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-4018
VWR-4018 Texture animations ignore repeats per face (llTextureAnim()) | |
08:19 | Ardy Lay | Yes, old bug is still annoying bug. |
08:20 | I ran into that when trying to make an animated "neon" sign for a bar. | |
Qie | (huh. This explains why lots of my old stuff broke, and why my independently stumbled-upon "workaround" was so flaky) | |
Ardy Lay | I had to recreate the texture and give up image crispness. | |
08:21 | Oz Linden | I had not seen this one before. |
Ardy Lay | THe result ended up so blurry we scrapped it and did something else. | |
08:22 | Oz Linden | It would be helpful if someone would construct an object that demos it. |
Ardy Lay | I seem to have deleted it from my inventory too. | |
Hmm... | ||
08:23 | Oz Linden | If anyone knows who the Phoenix dev is that 'Toysoldier' refers to in the last comment, tell them to get in touch with me |
104 | is asking in Phoenix developer chat now. | |
08:24 | Tonya Souther | is asking in Phoenix developer chat now. |
08:25 | Oz Linden | I've acked it and moved it to the product backlog, but if someone's going to work on it, then I'll move it to STORM and import the fix when ready |
08:26 | VWR-17022 Clicking The Clock should bring up events happening right now. | |
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17022
VWR-17022 Clicking on the current time in the Viewer should bring up events happening right now. | |
Marianne McCann | The "Click the Clock" proposal of Crap Mariner's | |
Ardy Lay | That's a two-click operatin now, right? | |
Search > Events | ||
08:27 | Marianne McCann | I believe so |
Ardy Lay | Kinda gets drowned out in that damn "Paid Classifieds" mess. | |
Techwolf Lupindo | I keep forgettting that SL has an event feature... | |
Ardy Lay | Those clasifieds are not for events are they? | |
Techwolf Lupindo | Perhaps due to having to think about it and searching for hte events search box. | |
Marianne McCann | Techwolf - indeed | |
08:28 | Oz Linden | According to the comments in the internal clone of that issue, someone is working on it. |
Jonathan | It is not clear what results clicking the clock should show -- there are so many different types that seeing them all displayed might be a bit much, unless the output floater is just a line by line display, as in v1 viewers | |
Oz Linden | There are no details on how it's being done, though. | |
Marianne McCann | Hmmm | |
08:29 | Oz Linden | It's someone in the search team (which makes sense). |
Techwolf Lupindo | I remmber when I first found the event listing. Played wiht it and seen it was destroyed by the spammers advertizing there "event" sales 24/7. | |
Qie | I think just bringing up the Events Search as-is would be close enough (well... assuming the whole Search UI is up for redesign now) | |
Oz Linden | I'll see if I can find out more for next week. | |
Ardy Lay | Yeah, the event listing in V1 was easier for me to read but LL doesn't want to hear that. My JIRA went down in FLAMES. | |
Oz Linden | Don't give up hope on search... | |
Jonathan | Not having 1 line per event entry is what makes v2 search hard for me -- it takes forever to scan | |
08:30 | Marianne McCann | Thanks, Oz. Seems an easy use for what is now a dead space on the UI |
Oz Linden | STORM-942 Make texture blending deterministic to prevent terrain texture drift | |
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-942
STORM-942 Make texture blending deterministic to prevent terrain texture drift | |
08:31 | Ardy Lay | Ah yes, that one makes multi-camera photoshoots really silly looking. |
"Hey look! They are not even on the same beach!" | ||
Hehe | ||
Marianne McCann | THat's something I've seen since at least '07. Ground testures are not constant, shift per viewer, and also often do not mate the "no higher than x setting an estate manager can place | |
Ardy "Beach? I don't see a beach here" | ||
08:32 | Ardy Lay | Perlin noise generator at play here? |
Marianne McCann | (Which was how I first discovered the issue) | |
Ardy Lay | guesses | |
Oz Linden | yes, that's the issue, Ardy | |
Marianne McCann | From what Igathered from Andrew, Ardy | |
Qie | makes terraforming an Atoll beach, with that funky technicolor terrain, a fool's errand. | |
Ardy Lay | Yeah, I probably was there when Andrew said it. I don't know what it means. | |
Andrew said we need a common seed for all fiewers to use. | ||
08:33 | viewers | |
Marianne McCann | Heh, me too Ardy. A known seed | |
Oz Linden | It would be interesting to do some experiments with whether or not providing a seed from the region would produce stable results across different viewers | |
08:34 | One way to do that experiment would be to temporarily add a fixed seed, then build multiple viewers with it, edit a region and see if everyone ends up seeing the same thing | |
Ardy Lay | Is that seed generated within the viewer from some psudorandom elements? | |
08:35 | Qie | internally hash the region ID to derive a stable seed? |
Oz Linden | I don't know where the current seed comes from, Ardy | |
well, if a stable seed produces stable results, then we could store the seed in the region | ||
08:36 | Techwolf Lupindo | Need a consentent stable seed that doesn't changed so if regine restarts doen't cause it to look differnet all of a sudden. |
Ardy Lay | LLPerlinNoise::init(void) | |
Calls rand() several times | ||
Oz Linden | that way, each time you edit the region you could optionally regenerate the texture map (in fact, generate a new seed) until you got one you liked, then save it | |
08:37 | but it's not worth doing the work to store the seed unless we can determine that the results are visually at least very similar on different platforms | |
Ardy Lay | Andrews also expressed a strong desire to return to using higher resolution terrain textures. | |
08:38 | Techwolf Lupindo | Yes. Victor is very fustrated with Aggro ground textures due to that. |
Ardy Lay | SL used to have very high resolution terrain textures. | |
Techwolf Lupindo | uses a few hacks to get the ground textrue to look right. | |
Ardy Lay | I remember seeing screenshots from an 8 year old resident that showed them. | |
08:39 | Marianne McCann | Ya, Ardy. They can be... disappointingly low rez at times. |
Oz Linden | If someone is interested in doing some experiments with the randomness, I'll build multi-platform viewers with it. | |
Marianne McCann | Noticed that with the "grass and flowers" look we have on Livingtree now. Ends up making it looks not fully rezzed in some shots | |
Oz Linden | should be an easy enough experiment to do | |
08:40 | Marianne McCann | I'd be game on assisting, if need be. Not sure what I'd need to do, but it's bugged me long enough... |
Oz Linden | talk to me after, Marianne... | |
08:41 | Marianne McCann | okay |
Ardy Lay | Well, when you do, watch the clouds closely. They seem to use noise too. | |
Oz Linden | next: VWR-20081 "Emergency Grid Broadcast System" | |
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20081
VWR-20081 Emergency Grid Broadcast System | |
Marianne McCann | Ah... my greedy little idea. | |
08:42 | Ardy Lay | Heh, not long ago somebody accidentally sent a meeting invitation to "everybody". I guess that caused some congestion and confusion. :-) |
The Raptor | couldn't that be delivered via rss? | |
Marianne McCann | It would seem | |
Ardy - yes. That was to Michael Linden's old office hour in Shamon | ||
08:43 | Ardy Lay | Hmm... somebody else did it too. Blondin I think. |
Marianne McCann | Likely | |
Oz Linden | I'll ask Support and Ops what they think.... | |
Ardy Lay | And I have seen another mention of wanting grid status displayed in the viewer. | |
Marianne McCann | Thanks, Oz. | |
The Raptor | having in world communication for grid status updates is a good idea | |
08:44 | Marianne McCann | I use a scripted widget in my workroom to give me that now. saves my butt to know from that when assets are going pear shaped |
The Raptor | in order to check the current grid status you either have to be in a group like awg or break immersion to check the page every so often | |
^.^ | ||
nice | ||
Haravikk | Crap, majorly late as my calendar reminder didn't trigger for some reason. Anyway, I just wanted to add to VWR-4018 that any object with texture animation can demonstrate the issue so long as the animated side(s) have texture repeats other than <1.0, 1.0>. Unfortunately there's no way to trigger the issue that I know of, it just happens seemingly randomly. My best working theory is that the code for texture animations takes a copy of the values it needs to animate, and is becoming out-of-sync with the texture repeats value(s) | |
08:45 | Oz Linden | it wouldn't be hard to prototype this, if you limited it to polling the rss feed at some frequency |
Marianne McCann | nods | |
The Raptor | polling? :/ | |
08:46 | oobscure | i wonder how many "normal" users would understand / pay attention to grid status updates |
Ardy Lay | I know somebody that used to use a script to poll stats for number of users logged in and sound an alarm when it dropped sharply. | |
Marianne McCann | Heh | |
Ardy Lay | Unfortunately he hasn't been around since December 10th. | |
Wolfpup | i have a grid watch hud for grid status | |
08:47 | oobscure | another point is, by the time a status update is published on the blog, you usually may already have screwed up something |
Oz Linden | Whether or not polling is the right long term solution is an issue to think about, but it's certainly fine for a prototype to evaluate the user experience | |
Marianne McCann | That doesnt sound like a good reason to not warn people | |
The Raptor | mm | |
Oz Linden | well, there are updates like rolling restarts that would benefit | |
08:48 | Wolfpup | i wish grid status and other things was in the home tab |
The Raptor | I would suggest a different icon to an envelope though | |
oobscure | Oz +1 and Wolfpup +1 | |
Jonathan | Yellow triangle with a ! | |
Ardy Lay | There is a menu bar color flag now. What is that used for? | |
draconis.neurocam | the home tab is theoretically just a website, and i believe the url entry is in a debug setting, so someone could make a webpage and replace the home tab personally, theoretically at least | |
08:49 | Oz Linden | I never pick icons... there are people who are paid to make those mistakes... uh.... decsions. |
Wolfpup | Ardy that is for when the lindens go into god mod | |
The Raptor | you could also have it deliever the RSS feed if the user clicks on the symbol | |
Marianne McCann | Perhaps. I'd be more keen on seeing the information given more visibility than having to head to the sidebar | |
Qie | right, Marianne | |
Marianne McCann | If there's a tornado heading my way, the cable box doesn't show me a warnign icon... it scrolls on my screen | |
Wolfpup | you could have it flicker the home tab when there is an update | |
The Raptor | yap | |
oobscure | that'd be cool | |
08:50 | Wolfpup | and there is a sound to go with it |
and iritating beep | ||
The Raptor | depending on the post | |
Ardy Lay | Well, any event the viewer knows about it can trigger a sound and/or a notification, even an entry in chat history. | |
The Raptor | ^.^ | |
08:51 | Oz Linden | great.... we don't get beaten up enough for the intrusiveness of the v2 UI, and y'all want to add flashing colors and annoying beeps? |
The Raptor | lol | |
oobscure | heheheee | |
The Raptor | who said flashing? | |
Oz Linden | you're supposed to be helping here... | |
Ardy Lay | Well, I don't know what we want yet. ;-) | |
Marianne McCann | Oz - so asking for "Clipy" would be a bit much, then? | |
Wolfpup | the vieewer could even post a notice to nearby chat saying to check the home tab as there is an imortant message | |
oobscure | xD | |
Oz Linden | just remember - I'm going to post this archive, and when people complain, I'm going to blame _you_ :-) | |
08:52 | Jonathan | Maybe just having a noticeable icon appear would suffice |
The Raptor | lol | |
Ardy Lay | WE used to get a notification in the upper right corner AND a line in local chat. | |
Wolfpup | i said flicker not flashing | |
The Raptor | llDialog(rss feed post1) | |
oobscure | anyway i guess such a feature should be optional | |
08:53 | Ardy Lay | Just do NOT make it something that takes UI focus and has to be ack'd. |
The Raptor | avoid flicker even, anything more than 3 changes per second can cause an epileptic siezure (according to WCAG2) | |
Techwolf Lupindo | The RSS feed or whatever that gets the data should be either restricted to problems or coded in such a way that the client can only "scream" when there is actually IS a problem with the grid. No notices should trigger it, "The boy who cryed wolf" syndrome. | |
Qie | a yellow "⚠" icon in the menubar would be a start. scrolling the text across the vast expanse of empty menubar space might be an option. | |
Oz Linden | There are a number of possible UIs for the alerts, from local chat to various sorts of popups or overlays | |
Jonathan | (Oz, Toysoldier has just added a comment to vwr-4018) | |
Marianne McCann | At least turn-offable, Opensource. But don'twe want users to know where there a systemwide issue? | |
08:54 | Oz Linden | the thing to do would be to build the backend to get the notices, and then experiment with different frontends for displaying them |
The Raptor | I think this is why Oz was saying to prototype it | |
oobscure | yeah Mari, personally i'd want it and keep it enabled | |
Wolfpup | i would say having it flicker @ 2/sec would be enough | |
The Raptor | (chat lag) | |
Haravikk | What about a thin bar that slides down from the menu bar, with the usual click to dismiss? Certainly for region-specific issues, like an imminent restart | |
Jonathan | There might be other uses a user would want to send into a scrolling region at the top of the screen, too, feeds from who knows where | |
08:55 | Ardy Lay | How about making it in the form of a bottom-bar button we can hide/show/sort and press to get details? |
Haravikk | For general purpose feeds surely the main notifications area is for precisely that kind of thing? | |
The Raptor | K.I.S.S | |
Ardy Lay | Maybe the button can change appearance when there are details to show? | |
08:56 | Oz Linden | ok... we're running out of time, so let me look at the ongoing stuff.... |
Ardy Lay | Hehe | |
Wolfpup | Marianne this might be some thing that is more of an advanced setting and not for the basic user | |
Techwolf Lupindo | The "⚠" icon would appear and flash slowly untill the user clicks on it and a popup shows the details. User click it close and the icon stay on full time, no blicking. | |
Oz Linden | media filters.... on my plate to fix the test it broke (been busy w/ windlight) | |
inventory exchange... no progress :-( | ||
08:58 | Display name caching.... I'm pretty sure someone's going to work on this shortly | |
Haravikk | Sweet, I think it's just a timezone glitch | |
Wolfpup | i think there has already been some owrk along those lines | |
08:59 | i have seen commits for DN improvements | |
Oz Linden | the various interface de-cluttering suggestions.... I've passed these on to our UX team, who are doing a lot of thinking about related stuff, so watch this space.... | |
Techwolf Lupindo | Too bad display name cacheing wasn't in place when it was rolled out day before x-mas, might have would avoid some issues. | |
oobscure | I'm adding VWR-25321 and VWR-25363 to agenda for consideration in future meetings | |
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25321
VWR-25321 Make user aware of the "CTRL + Up/Down Arrow" feature (which scrolls back message history) | |
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25363
VWR-25363 Expose "Duplicate Object" feature in Viewer 2 (regression from 1.x) | ||
Oz Linden | actually, the names are cached... I don't know what the genesis of that problem is | |
09:00 | ok oobscure | |
Haravikk | I commented on VWR-4018 with regards to test object(s), the problem is there's no solid repro that I know of | |
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-4018
VWR-4018 Texture animations ignore repeats per face (llTextureAnim()) | |
Haravikk | It just eventually happens for whatever reason | |
Jonathan | Haravikk, did you read the comment just entered a few minutes ago? | |
09:01 | Oz Linden | the VWR-25714 .... no update on that.... |
JIRA-helper | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25714
VWR-25714 Poor responsiveness of Profile and IM buttons in People search | |
Oz Linden | I saw that comment from Toysoldier ... will check it out | |
loves SL art galleries anyway |