AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08
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AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08
| [9:33] | Zha Ewry is Online | |
| [9:34] | Teravus Ousley: | mild indeed |
| [9:34] | Zha Ewry: | Ok |
| [9:34] | Zha Ewry: | Five minutes past call time |
| [9:34] | Zha Ewry: | So.. I posted three, items |
| [9:34] | Zha Ewry: | next f2f |
| [9:34] | Dr Scofield: | hi all |
| [9:35] | Zha Ewry: | Protocol docoumentatoin mess |
| [9:35] | JayR Cela: | i have a question |
| [9:35] | Zha Ewry: | and what, the OpenSim community needs to get from Linden if there isgoing to be any progress |
| [9:35] | Adam Xinpeng: | Zha: anything. |
| [9:35] | Zha Ewry: | Sure JayR |
| [9:35] | Adam Xinpeng: | We've made so far pretty good with no documentation - but we are going to need some if we want to tackle grid work. |
| [9:35] | Dr Scofield thinks whoever did the web based login stuff deserves to be slapped with an old fish...HTML page would not load until the third attempt | |
| [9:35] | Zha Ewry: | Heh. Adam you'd like to see a pulse? |
| [9:35] | JayR Cela: | why do we allways save textures in .bmp instad of .jpg |
| [9:35] | Gigs Taggart: | JayR I have a patch for that, I filed it months ago |
| [9:36] | Adam Xinpeng: | Zha: Client work, we can mostly do ourselves without too much hassle, we've got good at that (by nessecity) |
| [9:36] | Gigs Taggart: | LL hasn't applied it |
| [9:36] | Adam Xinpeng: | But, server-side work, and probably some of the CAPS stuff too is what needs documenting. |
| [9:36] | Adam Xinpeng: | What the sim needs to do to conform to LL's grandoise standard plans. |
| [9:36] | Zha Ewry: | Agreed |
| [9:36] | Teravus Ousley: | I might point out that there's also bug: VWR-4021 that kind of needs to be resolved |
| [9:36] | Tao Takashi: | Hi everybody |
| [9:36] | Adam Xinpeng: | CAPS is probably the first area, since it doesnt need too much help from LL. |
| [9:36] | Zha Ewry: | And.. its worse than that |
| [9:36] | JenzZa Misfit: | Alanagh Recreant would like a group invite , Sai ..if possible |
| [9:36] | JayR Cela: | ok thats good but it needs to be implemented into the official client |
| [9:36] | Zha Ewry: | As far as I can tell, Niether OpenSim, nor LibSL have fully caught up to the caps stuff |
| [9:37] | Dr Scofield: | main roblem is that we (the group) are wasting our time reverse engineering LL grid |
| [9:37] | Adam Xinpeng: | OpenSim is partly by choice |
| [9:37] | Adam Xinpeng: | A lot of the OpenSim devs take objection to some of the CAPS |
| [9:37] | Adam Xinpeng: | notably, our favourite EventQueueGet |
| [9:37] | Zha Ewry: | The totaly kichen sink approach? |
| [9:37] | Dr Scofield: | instead of LL providing the meat so that we can then build on that |
| [9:37] | Adam Xinpeng: | That too. |
| [9:38] | Tao Takashi: | what parts of CAPS needs to be done for opensim? implementing a caps server properly? |
| [9:38] | Zha Ewry: | After watching Siaj chew through the process, i'd have to say that we need to ask Linden to a) document some of this |
| [9:38] | Adam Xinpeng: | We've got a CAPS server already |
| [9:38] | Zha Ewry: | and.. b) clean up some of the most egrigious crap |
| [9:38] | Saijanai Kuhn loves EventGetQueue mostly because I can't get it to work | |
| [9:38] | Adam Xinpeng: | and we've got a decent LLSD parser, etc. |
| [9:38] | JayR Cela: | if not for my wife Cathy I would leave this place and goto Open Sim |
| [9:38] | Adam Xinpeng: | What we dont have is documentation for the individual caps, their parameters, etc. |
| [9:39] | Zha Ewry: | What concerns me about things like not doing cpas.. is |
| [9:39] | Zha Ewry: | *caps |
| [9:39] | Zha Ewry: | that we'll end up haviing to fork the client soonner or later |
| [9:39] | JayR Cela: | ok i am confused / what is caps |
| [9:39] | Zha Ewry: | Of course, if Linden can't allow authentication to be fixed |
| [9:39] | Adam Xinpeng: | Oh,you do know there's a project starting up to build a new client from the ground up as a reimplementation along the lines of OpenSim/libsl. |
| [9:39] | Teravus Ousley: | indeed, not having the documentation on the individual caps is, of course, shooting in the dark. |
| [9:39] | Saijanai Kuhn: | the special web address used to communicate with the server |
| [9:39] | Adam Xinpeng: | OpenViewer[.org] |
| [9:40] | Zha Ewry: | that will happenwhen they force the update |
| [9:40] | Saijanai Kuhn: | it has a special format |
| [9:40] | Zha Ewry: | to the new auth |
| [9:40] | Zha Ewry: | And.. Yes. I saw that |
| [9:40] | Saijanai Kuhn: | and is called a cap as short for "capability" |
| [9:40] | Day Oh: | I found slproxy can proxy caps now, that should be really useful |
| [9:40] | Saijanai Kuhn: | can't get it to work with MacOS X though |
| [9:40] | Zha Ewry: | Couldn't be worse than the Linden on sturcture |
| [9:40] | Dr Scofield: | we pretty much don't have the docs on any grid internal stuff...which is going to make the LL--OpenSim grid interop a tad difficult |
| [9:40] | Tao Takashi: | I described CAPS here: http://mrtopf.de/blog/secondlife/slga-capabilities-explained-technical/ |
| [9:41] | Dr Scofield: | libsl seems to do CAPs sufficiently well |
| [9:41] | Adam Xinpeng: | Dr: yeah, that's what would be the ultimate documentation |
| [9:41] | Zha Ewry: | But.. I expect that the rendeing isn't going to be any fun. (OpenGL, mlutiple shader models, multiple graphics card bugs, is a nasty thing) |
| [9:41] | Burhop Piccard: | yes |
| [9:41] | JayR Cela: | i about ready to dump everything and just use Ubuntu Linux |
| [9:41] | Tao Takashi: | I wonder if the documentation should not be done anyway along the SLGA process.. I'd think that we need different caps for a start anyway |
| [9:41] | Tao Takashi: | this of course raises the question of who is doing that documentation |
| [9:42] | Saijanai Kuhn reasises his hand | |
| [9:42] | Zha Ewry: | Well.. Part of the problem, is that as far as I can tell, Linden is about two months behind thier intended schedule |
| [9:42] | Saijanai Kuhn: | as far as I know, I'm the main documenter of SL right now |
| [9:42] | Dr Scofield: | you need some inside knowledge to do that |
| [9:42] | Zha Ewry: | and.. has not moved very much on the agent/sim split |
| [9:42] | Saijanai Kuhn: | and I'm stuck |
| [9:42] | Dr Scofield: | otherwise it's quite a lot of guesswork |
| [9:43] | Media Hax: | im a good guesser... |
| [9:43] | Dr Scofield applauds saijanai for his effort! | |
| [9:43] | Zha Ewry: | I also am willing to argue, that if they can't get us a stable, working version of the new-auth we can sue for OpenSim login, that they won't be able to evbolve the client to anything the AWG comes up with |
| [9:43] | Saijanai Kuhn: | on a bright note, I might be getting insider info soon. |
| [9:43] | Dr Scofield: | right |
| [9:43] | Zha Ewry: | Yeah, but Saij, they will take away your access to doocumenting |
| [9:43] | Dr Scofield: | i assume you meant use not sue? ;-) |
| [9:44] | Saijanai Kuhn: | gawd talk about shooting themselves in th foot if that happens |
| [9:44] | Dr Scofield: | saijanai linden? |
| [9:44] | JayR Cela: | oh they cant sue any of us / is OS |
| [9:44] | Saijanai Kuhn: | maybe (hopeful) |
| [9:44] | Zha Ewry: | So... |
| [9:44] | Ina Centaur: | lol |
| [9:44] | Dr Scofield: | hey, hey! cool! |
| [9:44] | Zha Ewry: | In theory, Still on Zero's page |
| [9:44] | Zha Ewry: | there is a f2f comming up |
| [9:45] | Tao Takashi: | was their any response to our complaints about the AWG process and collaboration/communication issues? |
| [9:45] | Zha Ewry: | Oooh. Inbound Lindens |
| [9:45] | Tao Takashi: | I think the caps problem again comes down to that problem |
| [9:45] | Media Hax: | I hope he didnt mean sue, cause Jennza is not an attorney.... |
| [9:45] | Ina Centaur: | :-O |
| [9:45] | Adam Xinpeng: | Shiny |
| [9:45] | Adam Xinpeng: | which ones? |
| [9:45] | Dr Scofield: | the question is what sense does a f2f make if they don't participate in the SL AWG process ? |
| [9:45] | Saijanai Kuhn: | Zero told us to talk to people on IRC |
| [9:45] | Saijanai Kuhn: | adn they've tried to be helpful but it hasn't always helped |
| [9:45] | JenzZa Misfit: | media ! *snicker* |
| [9:46] | Zha Ewry: | Periapse, and Tess |
| [9:46] | Saijanai Kuhn: | hey guys. Welcomde |
| [9:46] | Saijanai Kuhn: | First LIndens |
| [9:46] | Adam Xinpeng: | ack, shame I have a meeting in 15 mins. |
| [9:46] | Periapse Linden: | thx |
| [9:46] | Tao Takashi: | Hi Periapse, Tess! |
| [9:46] | Zha Ewry: | Hello Lindens |
| [9:46] | Teravus Ousley: | greetings |
| [9:46] | Zha Ewry: | Welcome to snowy AWG land |
| [9:46] | Lom Hax: | Speaking of "they." :) |
| [9:46] | JayR Cela: | well ya go a whole truckload full of X86 servers / and they are screwed up |
| [9:46] | Adam Xinpeng: | Hey, we should host one of these AWG meetings on OpenSim some time. ;) |
| [9:46] | Zha Ewry: | Well, They.. can't be the right model |
| [9:46] | Zha Ewry: | And.. Yes, we should |
| [9:46] | Adam Xinpeng: | Cant let llSim hog all the meetings. :P |
| [9:47] | Day Oh: | Great idea |
| [9:47] | Zha Ewry: | Tho.. We won't be quite so well dressed, most of us |
| [9:47] | Adam Xinpeng: | True |
| [9:47] | Adam Xinpeng: | although that's been mostly fixed, inventory is running now |
| [9:47] | Zha Ewry: | yeah, content needs to stagger in |
| [9:47] | JayR Cela: | we need to move the platform to a main Frame |
| [9:47] | Tess Linden: | hey guys! |
| [9:47] | Zha Ewry: | So... The biggest impediment, is clearly, the documentation side |
| [9:47] | Dr Scofield: | hi tess |
| [9:47] | Adam Xinpeng: | Hey Tess |
| [9:47] | Day Oh: | Howdy |
| [9:47] | Teravus Ousley: | Greetings Tess |
| [9:48] | Zha Ewry: | And. yes, it has to be us, not we vs. them |
| [9:48] | Adam Xinpeng: | Right, I think the things that would be good re: documentation would be: |
| [9:48] | Adam Xinpeng: | 1. Serverside connectivity documentation & region-domain implementation specs. Even if seriously incomplete. |
| [9:48] | Adam Xinpeng: | 2. CAPS documentation for client connections (AWGroupies & users can do this one) |
| [9:48] | Zha Ewry Nods | |
| [9:48] | Adam Xinpeng: | #1 is somewhat important, even if incomplete so we know which direction to head in |
| [9:49] | Saijanai Kuhn justwnats help implementing Group IM and maybe a pointer on getting his Python proxy working | |
| [9:49] | Zha Ewry: | Tho.. Some coherence on the core evolution of the caps/queue infrastructure would be awful nice |
| [9:49] | JayR Cela: | i think is best if Sun Micro or IBM just buy LL |
| [9:49] | Adam Xinpeng: | Not sun plz. |
| [9:49] | FWord Utorid: | lag |
| [9:49] | Ina Centaur: | lol |
| [9:49] | Zha Ewry: | The tangle between the caps, and udp, at the moment is painful to sort out |
| [9:49] | Dr Scofield: | jayr, no, don't think you want that |
| [9:49] | Zha Ewry: | (send X on one pipe, see responses on other pipes) |
| [9:49] | Dr Scofield: | eclipse rich client as a viewer base? shudder |
| [9:49] | Burhop Piccard: | JayR - I've thought the same only 1/2 in a joking way. |
| [9:49] | JayR Cela: | well they are both big OS supporters |
| [9:50] | Ina Centaur: | eclipse for lsl editing |
| [9:50] | Tao Takashi: | but one is too Java centric ;-) |
| [9:50] | Dr Scofield: | lol |
| [9:50] | Tao Takashi: | at least for me |
| [9:50] | Tao Takashi: | anyway |
| [9:50] | Adam Xinpeng: | Sun is very GPL-centric. More than LL. |
| [9:50] | Zha Ewry: | Which one Tao? |
| [9:50] | Lom Hax uses TextMate for LSL | |
| [9:50] | Dr Scofield: | tao, just one? |
| [9:50] | Adam Xinpeng: | (although LL is pretty bad.) |
| [9:50] | Ina Centaur: | :-P |
| [9:50] | Catherine Pfeffer: | Sun already has its own frid initiatives |
| [9:50] | Catherine Pfeffer: | grid |
| [9:50] | Tao Takashi: | Yes, I interviewed some SUN guys about Project Wonderland |
| [9:50] | FWord Utorid: | catchphrase is too corpocentric |
| [9:50] | Zha Ewry: | so.. Adam, I agree |
| [9:50] | Media Hax: | yes Sun has some great 3D tools.. |
| [9:51] | Tao Takashi: | actually quite nice |
| [9:51] | Zha Ewry: | Some sort of a roadmap on the sim/service front would be very nice |
| [9:51] | Burhop Piccard: | Tao... me too. |
| [9:51] | Saijanai Kuhn: | OK as the Doucmenter in the Field, I'd like help getting started with EventQueueGet and the overall CAPs docs |
| [9:51] | Adam Xinpeng: | Actually, I'd probably add a "3." -- a list of things where OpenSim and other reimplementers can help out. Either feasibility testing or otherwise. |
| [9:51] | Saijanai Kuhn: | Kelly tried to help me the other day, but still cant get an arbitrary event out of EQG |
| [9:51] | JayR Cela: | well we all know this LL is not going to last forever |
| [9:52] | FWord Utorid: | as the daring one in the group, i'd like help discarding the entire thing and making something new, better, and functional. |
| [9:52] | Burhop Piccard: | Adam, I think that is hard. |
| [9:52] | FWord Utorid: | instead of writing a free manual for LL ;) |
| [9:52] | Adam Xinpeng: | FWord: I agree on lots of parts of the protocol as it is - I'm hoping that part of the AWG process will annihilate those bits. |
| [9:52] | JayR Cela: | i guess we will all end up in Open Simm |
| [9:52] | FWord Utorid: | adam: i didn't ask you ;) |
| [9:53] | Adam Xinpeng: | EQG is a good example, there are lots of others (the UDP resend system, asset download system, etc.) |
| [9:53] | Saijanai Kuhn: | After the Fast FOod Wars, all restaurants are Taco Bell |
| [9:53] | Zha Ewry is Offline | |
| [9:53] | Saijanai Kuhn: | er, OpenSim |
| [9:53] | Adam Xinpeng: | Haha |
| [9:53] | Dr Scofield: | zha just crashed, will be back in a tick, she said |
| [9:53] | Teravus Ousley: | as I said before, I don't have an issue suring up documentation as I find it lacking and I'm working on that particular portion's re-implementation... (and I've done so in the past) |
| [9:53] | Rex Cronon: | hi everybody |
| [9:54] | JayR Cela: | oh god / UDP / why the heck we even use UDP is an embarassement to everyones intelligence |
| [9:54] | Adam Xinpeng: | Yeah, agree with Teravus - what we need is documentation where it's not possible to R.E. it. |
| [9:54] | Adam Xinpeng: | UDP makes a lot of sense for lots of SL's traffic |
| [9:54] | JayR Cela: | screw UDP |
| [9:54] | Zha Ewry is Online | |
| [9:54] | Saijanai Kuhn: | well, we official docs everywhere |
| [9:54] | Adam Xinpeng: | particularly agent & object updates where the data goes stale quickly. |
| [9:54] | Rex Cronon: | something wrong with the main grid? a few minutes ago i crashed, and had to reset pc:( |
| [9:54] | Zha Ewry: | Sigh |
| [9:54] | Burhop Piccard: | FWord - I think there is room for both. I think AWG is on the evolve track. I haven't seen much on the "Revolution" track (open Virtual worlds based on standards) |
| [9:54] | Saijanai Kuhn: | because otherwise they can change without notice and no-one can say "but the docs show differently" |
| [9:54] | FWord Utorid: | given how slow everything in sl is i totally think the existing architecture is defunct. |
| [9:54] | Adam Xinpeng: | But, when it needs to be reliable - the UDP resend system should be replaced with raw TCP. |
| [9:54] | Zha Ewry: | Onwn fault that one |
| [9:54] | JayR Cela: | UDP creates way tooooooooo much IP traffic |
| [9:54] | Dr Scofield: | the problem i see is that non-LL folks are in the worst possible position to doc |
| [9:55] | Zha Ewry has to remember not to drag Windlight windows between X sessions | |
| [9:55] | FWord Utorid: | burhop, i have begun the revolution, and I AM REVOLTING |
| [9:55] | Saijanai Kuhn nods vigorously | |
| [9:55] | Adam Xinpeng: | UDP is smaller than TCP, especially for things where your streaming updates and you can throw packets away safely. |
| [9:55] | Adam Xinpeng: | which makes it great for things like streaming video, streaming object updates, etc. |
| [9:55] | Adam Xinpeng: | that are temporally bound |
| [9:55] | Burhop Piccard: | THen I shall join you, FWord! |
| [9:55] | Tao Takashi: | Zero nevertheless said that he wanted to test at least a grid without UDP or at least without most of it |
| [9:55] | Lom Hax: | Non-LL folks may be in a poor position to document, but every working programmer knows it is hard to work on documentation when the bullets are flying. |
| [9:55] | Zha Ewry: | UDP makes perfect sense for a set of things, which are basically transtory |
| [9:56] | Adam Xinpeng: | I dont think it will be a good idea to throw it away completely, but for the majority of SL packet types, like IM, etc - definetely. |
| [9:56] | Tao Takashi: | but I see my area mostly in the agent domain anyway so hopefully I won't have to deal with UDP |
| [9:56] | JayR Cela: | But UDP is no message correection / so we got a ll these bits bouncining back and forth |
| [9:56] | Teravus Ousley: | add textures to that |
| [9:56] | Zha Ewry: | But.. the currrent tangleof UDP/TCP and such is hard to untangle |
| [9:56] | Lom Hax: | Meaning that LL folks will have a hard time doing that work when theic bosses expect them to be delivering actual code. |
| [9:56] | Saijanai Kuhn: | I've been told its not the UDP that is the problem with IM |
| [9:56] | Adam Xinpeng: | Jayr: it doesnt need resend for temporally bound stuff |
| [9:56] | Adam Xinpeng: | IE, let's say I send two frames of video |
| [9:56] | Adam Xinpeng: | If we've already got the second one, why re-send the first? |
| [9:57] | Zha Ewry nods at Adam | |
| [9:57] | Adam Xinpeng: | The same theory applies to object updates, if there's two updates - one later than the other, then we dont care about the old one, it's stale data already |
| [9:57] | Dahlia Trimble: | UDP saves server memory so the TCP /IP stack doesnt need to store undeliverable packets |
| [9:57] | Lom Hax: | So, to whatever extent we can receive docs from LL, great, but we need to be prepared to do some outselves. Hopefully we can show to LL and get good feedback. |
| [9:57] | Zha Ewry: | When that's what we're doing, UDP is appropriate |
| [9:57] | FWord Utorid: | THIS CUBE SHOWS SCREENSHOTS OF THE VIEWER I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON WITH CAPSLOCK ON FOR ALMOST A YEAR |
| [9:57] | Tess Linden: | Zha, we have some internal documents/diagrams that we think may help you understand how the message system works, I'll work with peri to get it into the public wiki |
| [9:57] | Catherine Pfeffer: | Good point Adam |
| [9:57] | Day Oh: | Do we need to come up with another channel for asking for help while documenting things, or is SLDev enough? |
| [9:57] | Zha Ewry: | Tess, that woudl be super |
| [9:57] | Lom Hax: | Tess, tha's great |
| [9:57] | Lom Hax: | Thanks so much. |
| [9:57] | Saijanai Kuhn: | wonderful |
| [9:57] | Adam Xinpeng: | Tess: yeah, definetely appreciated. |
| [9:57] | Tao Takashi: | great, Tess :) |
| [9:57] | Tess Linden: | it may not solve all problems, but will get you something to look at and I will be available on IRC for questions |
| [9:58] | FWord Utorid: | after writing it i decided that all technology is crap |
| [9:58] | Zha Ewry: | One of the challnages is that as far as I can tell, Nobody, iniside, or outside Linden could actually write down what it all does |
| [9:58] | Zha Ewry: | Three years of evolving code, and clearly some odd things here and there |
| [9:58] | Dr Scofield: | tess, excellent! |
| [9:58] | Adam Xinpeng: | OK, I need to fly. Good seeing you all again, hopefully will have some time to attend next week. :) |
| [9:58] | Zha Ewry: | But.. if we can get it closer to understood, it would really help |
| [9:58] | Zha Ewry: | Good to see you adam |
| [9:58] | Tess Linden: | this stuff is hard to understand, we had to give several Linden University talks to get internal developers to understand it at the time, so getting the diagrams out and communicating will be key |
| [9:59] | Teravus Ousley: | tc Adam |
| [9:59] | Zha Ewry: | You likely to make the end of th month? |
| [9:59] | Dr Scofield: | take care, adam |
| [9:59] | Tess Linden: | yep! |
| [9:59] | Adam Xinpeng: | Zha: if I'm invited, yes. |
| [9:59] | Zha Ewry nods | |
| [9:59] | Zha Ewry: | Well, that n eeds to go on someone's list |
| [9:59] | Adam Xinpeng: | all the opensim devs will be in Finland to the 25th/26th, so hopefully it wont be the 27th. |
| [9:59] | Zha Ewry: | Its getting to be time to buy tickets |
| [9:59] | Zha Ewry: | They said the 31st |
| [9:59] | FWord Utorid: | i would like to thank LL for a year of crashes and stressful problems, btw |
| [9:59] | Adam Xinpeng: | OK plenty of time to fly back. |
| [9:59] | Adam Xinpeng: | I'll probulate Rob. |
| [9:59] | Dr Scofield: | how about having it in finland then? |
| [10:00] | JayR Cela: | ok / bye~byee everyone / and Sai / thank you for sending me a Taxi :_) |
| [10:00] | Zha Ewry: | Get your annual dose of polar Radiation Adam? |
| [10:00] | Saijanai Kuhn: | ;-) |
| [10:00] | Adam Xinpeng: | Yeah, we've got a small opensim-dev-meet thing going on. |
| [10:00] | Burhop Piccard: | bad day, Fword ;-) |
| [10:00] | FWord Utorid: | bad year |
| [10:00] | Adam Xinpeng: | Anyway! |
| [10:00] | Zha Ewry: | So, we'll look for dome doc in the wiki |
| [10:00] | Adam Xinpeng: | I have to run for a meeting with another Fortune-50 company, so back later. |
| [10:00] | Zha Ewry: | We'll also be utterly glad to help flesh stuff out |
| [10:01] | Zha Ewry: | But.. we do need some hints, from time to time |
| [10:01] | Braulio 0.3: | All Go |
| [10:01] | FWord Utorid: | i will be happy to see the next version of non-functional technology based on the old one. |
| [10:01] | Alanagh Recreant slips out politely.... fascinating stuff :) | |
| [10:01] | FWord Utorid: | and the wonderful licensing headaches and lies and deceit that go along with it will be a nice show. |
| [10:02] | Zha Ewry: | The biggest tangle to unknot, client/sim, is the connections between the various type of communication |
| [10:02] | FWord Utorid: | the communication isn't going to be the issue, it will be the lawyers. |
| [10:02] | Zha Ewry: | The places where X has to happen, before Y, and the response then is triggered on seperate channels |
| [10:02] | Dr Scofield: | protocols |
| [10:02] | Saijanai Kuhn: | and how to USE said channels |
| [10:02] | Zha Ewry: | Well, in some cases, patterns between the protocols |
| [10:03] | Zha Ewry: | Because we've got some odd couplings |
| [10:03] | FWord Utorid: | if my prim hair is transferred to ibm's grid i will have to set ibm on fire. |
| [10:03] | Ina Centaur: | hmm but you never even talked to ET though |
| [10:03] | FWord Utorid: | you do not have a license to transfer my commodities to your multigrid technology |
| [10:03] | FWord Utorid: | i forbid it. |
| [10:03] | Lom Hax riffles through Tao's pockets while he his afk. | |
| [10:04] | Zha Ewry nods at Fword | |
| [10:04] | Ina Centaur: | personally, i like the idea that the asset servers are immortal above SL |
| [10:04] | Dr Scofield: | fword, ok, you'll get an ugly wig on the multigrid |
| [10:04] | Ina Centaur: | but i missed the a chunk of the convo here... |
| [10:04] | Zha Ewry: | One of the obvious things that needs to be done right in multi-grid, is protecting the rights of content creators |
| [10:04] | Zero Linden is Online | |
| [10:04] | Ina Centaur: | would the multigrid support commerce or will we all turn into communists? o.O |
| [10:04] | FWord Utorid: | that's the entanglement |
| [10:05] | Teravus Ousley: | I've started work also.. on the web-login in OpenSim, however ran into an issue.. I think I've mentioned the VWR issue on Jira though. |
| [10:05] | Dr Scofield: | there's not much that can be done -> DRM |
| [10:05] | Day Oh: | http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-4021 |
| [10:05] | Zha Ewry: | Well, we can respect intent, but not much more |
| [10:05] | FWord Utorid: | communications protocols underneath it aren't nearly as bad as the lawyers and the people who don't understand the implications |
| [10:05] | Dr Scofield: | teravus, i was looking at that as well, have you checked in stuff to the opensim svn yet? |
| [10:05] | Dahlia Trimble runs out quickly to file a copyright on the ruth avatar | |
| [10:05] | Teravus Ousley: | I have |
| [10:05] | Zha Ewry: | Prior Art, Dahlia |
| [10:05] | Dr Scofield: | zha, excactly |
| [10:05] | Teravus Ousley: | it's all in the code for the 'user server' |
| [10:06] | Ina Centaur: | i think Poser/Metacreations sold off all rights to ruth... |
| [10:06] | FWord Utorid cheers for Dahlia | |
| [10:06] | Dr Scofield: | ah, ok |
| [10:06] | FWord Utorid: | if IBM uses my textures I will sue them and take over. |
| [10:06] | Ina Centaur: | ... and with current 3d sculpting tools it wouldn't take that long to make a ruth-twin |
| [10:06] | Ina Centaur: | from scratch! |
| [10:06] | Tess Linden: | Icehouse will look into VWR-4021 |
| [10:06] | Teravus Ousley: | the user server displays messages about what the requests contain and what not for easier debugging |
| [10:06] | Zha Ewry: | So... The other thing which would be really nice, from Linden, would be some sense of the plans to migrate the client/sim connections towards more UDP |
| [10:06] | Ina Centaur: | i dunno. but why would anyone go with ruth nowadays.. |
| [10:07] | Zha Ewry: | Sorry, away from DUP to caps |
| [10:07] | Zha Ewry: | *UDP |
| [10:07] | FWord Utorid: | no UDP! |
| [10:07] | Saijanai Kuhn: | towards TCP/Caps... |
| [10:07] | Zha Ewry cannot type this afternoon | |
| [10:07] | Zha Ewry: | From UDP->Caps |
| [10:07] | Teravus Ousley: | Thanks, that would be appreciated. |
| [10:07] | Saijanai Kuhn agress with FWord whats up with that | |
| [10:07] | Dr Scofield: | caps, caps, caps...zha menat caps! |
| [10:07] | Zha Ewry: | CAPS |
| [10:07] | Zha Ewry puts on her CAP | |
| [10:07] | FWord Utorid: | because I am always right and you are slow, Sai. |
| [10:07] | Saijanai Kuhn: | and my protocols useless |
| [10:08] | FWord Utorid: | I told you that from day one |
| [10:08] | Teravus Ousley is Online | |
| [10:08] | Zha Ewry: | I assume there is a plan to get some stuff of UDP in the near term, Lindens? |
| [10:09] | Saijanai Kuhn: | the REAL question is HOW will this get "off of UDP?" |
| [10:09] | Zha Ewry nods | |
| [10:09] | Saijanai Kuhn: | the EventQueueGet is a rather odd way of doing it, IMHO |
| [10:09] | Dr Scofield: | what and how |
| [10:09] | FWord Utorid: | ok these precedings are a sham to make sai work all the time for no money. I will not stand for it. |
| [10:09] | Zha Ewry: | Well, towards the evenQueue, one assumes |
| [10:09] | Ina Centaur: | lol |
| [10:09] | Saijanai Kuhn: | It feels (like my son commented) like an interum solution |
| [10:09] | FWord Utorid sits | |
| [10:10] | Lom Hax: | saij, is that question premature? Do we know enough about the protocol to start figuring out how to evolve it? |
| [10:10] | Rex Cronon: | r u getting paid fword> |
| [10:10] | Dr Scofield: | also, for interop with OpenSim we need to know the boundary line, where it runs? |
| [10:10] | Teravus Ousley: | well, better documentation on that particular cap and what the near term possibilities and parameters are would be of benefit. |
| [10:10] | Zha Ewry: | Between Agent and Region? |
| [10:10] | FWord Utorid: | rex, i am smart, i do not work for nothing. |
| [10:10] | Dr Scofield: | agent and region and also region to region |
| [10:11] | Dr Scofield: | asset server? |
| [10:11] | Zha Ewry nods | |
| [10:11] | Lom Hax: | If I understand correctly, the boundary between client and server was not terribly clear historically. Cleaning that up is part of hte challenge. Yes? |
| [10:11] | Saijanai Kuhn: | all of my volunteer work has been designed to make me more attractive, job-wise, either for LL or for some other company |
| [10:11] | Zha Ewry: | Region/Region is a pretty small set of things |
| [10:11] | Tess Linden: | I think that migration will begin with login |
| [10:11] | Saijanai Kuhn: | I'd do the work anyway, but not necessarly the way I've been doing it |
| [10:11] | Tess Linden: | when we begin to split off agent and region domains |
| [10:11] | Tess Linden: | Donovan just recently released login.cgi support for llsd |
| [10:12] | Multi Gadget v2.0.3b by Timeless Prototype, '/44 info' | |
| [10:12] | Zha Ewry: | Well, login is pretty simple |
| [10:12] | Lom Hax: | cgi, eh? going Old School! |
| [10:12] | Dr Scofield: | just a name |
| [10:12] | FWord Utorid: | yes, the technology in use is dated and hacked together. |
| [10:12] | Zha Ewry: | But.. even there, what exactly it means isn't obvious |
| [10:12] | Teravus Ousley notes that jhurliman added working LLSD support for login on OpenSim, though it's incomplete. | |
| [10:12] | Saijanai Kuhn: | though care has to be taken not to log things into a LL-viewer-centric login procedure |
| [10:13] | Day Oh: | That's a point, it seems like there can't be much plan until the domain split thingy |
| [10:13] | FWord Utorid: | what is needed is to ignore the old way of thinking and embrace a new one |
| [10:13] | Zha Ewry: | Login sort of happens in three bits, at the moment |
| [10:13] | Saijanai Kuhn: | not all clients want to know about inventory. Some only want group IM and some might only want to check yoru linden account balance |
| [10:13] | Teravus Ousley: | it's missing friends, and inventory definitions atm. |
| [10:13] | Zha Ewry: | The first tiny bit, which gets you in the door |
| [10:13] | Zha Ewry: | The connectiont to the sim, which is in two parts, and several phases |
| [10:14] | Tess Linden: | Linden has been doing lots of server side work to put web services in front of old school "messages" |
| [10:14] | Zha Ewry: | and.. how that changes, if we have an Agent domain is very unclear |
| [10:14] | FWord Utorid: | web services are definately the way to go |
| [10:14] | Tess Linden: | as we test them gradually, we can begin to migrate to use wbe services, and then add caps in front for clients |
| [10:14] | Zha Ewry: | How much of that is on the sim/serice path? |
| [10:14] | FWord Utorid: | none of the informational content should come from the simulators if it's possible to offload the data |
| [10:14] | Zha Ewry: | Is there a migration plan sort of laid out Tess? That would also be really useful |
| [10:15] | Saijanai Kuhn: | FW0rd none should come from the simulators, but its all server-driven unless its static |
| [10:15] | Zha Ewry: | and. Yes, in an ideal world, the simulators, eventually, offload everything that isn't about physical state melding |
| [10:15] | Tess Linden: | zha: the migration plan at the moment is mainly server side, but the client side stuff will stem out from login |
| [10:15] | FWord Utorid: | sai I am nearly omnipotent, you don't have to tell me how things should work ;)( |
| [10:15] | X-Flight Device - Wear or Attach to Fly ANYWHERE: All Go | |
| [10:16] | Saijanai Kuhn: | well, then I should know that already, FWOrd |
| [10:16] | Tess Linden: | Rdw and Phoenix are working on inventory services |
| [10:16] | Zha Ewry nods | |
| [10:17] | FWord Utorid: | even the fastest horsedrawn carriage is no match for a v8. |
| [10:17] | Zha Ewry: | It might make terrififc sense to have a set of office hours, where each group that's working on a set of function like that, took people through what they are doing, and where they are |
| [10:17] | Zha Ewry: | Smaller, more focused than Zero's hours |
| [10:17] | Tao Takashi: | I actually wonder how we go on from login or how we get the login working now with a testgrid and probably testclient |
| [10:17] | FWord Utorid: | yes, we should corporatize this process so we accomplish less. |
| [10:17] | Saijanai Kuhn: | even ifthey're only once or twice a month, would be a great help |
| [10:18] | Zha Ewry: | Whichh has done a terrific job with his hours on http-c, and escrow |
| [10:18] | Tao Takashi: | because then we would have some sort of a start of a protocol and implementation |
| [10:18] | Tao Takashi: | yes, Which is quite great in what he does and how he communicates it |
| [10:18] | Tess Linden: | Sai: I believe Which/Rdw has his own office hours |
| [10:18] | Tao Takashi: | he has |
| [10:18] | Saijanai Kuhn: | Been there several times. Not able to follow a lot of it though |
| [10:19] | Zha Ewry: | You can go to the wiki, and find a lot of what he's doing written up as well |
| [10:19] | FWord Utorid: | the dream of a metaverse becomes a nightmare when people all start as ruth and their flesh blurs three times a minute. |
| [10:19] | Zha Ewry: | What's currently missing is the bridge between that, and the current caps, and the queue style pipes |
| [10:19] | Tao Takashi: | the problem with his office hours are maybe that he is quite a lot into escrow and stuff while we try to grok the simple things at the beginning ;-) |
| [10:19] | Rex Cronon: | wiki, the great hall of knowledge, where everything is so easy to find |
| [10:19] | Dr Scofield: | lol |
| [10:20] | Teravus Ousley: | wiki + google :D |
| [10:20] | Saijanai Kuhn: | Wiki: Ward's Impossible Knowledge Index |
| [10:20] | Tao Takashi: | he also writes good updates on the sldev mailinglist but then again you still need to know what he's talking about ;-) |
| [10:20] | Rex Cronon: | is more like babel tower |
| [10:20] | Zha Ewry nods | |
| [10:20] | Ina Centaur: | / i have a somewhat off-tangent question... is there a significance that these meetings always conflict in time with Dr Dobb's Tuesday Gridtalks? |
| [10:20] | Dr Scofield: | tess, is there a timetable for switching to completely web auth based login? |
| [10:21] | Tess Linden: | Tao: you can always ask him questions about general things too |
| [10:21] | Zha Ewry: | No, there isn't. If we want to move them, we can |
| [10:21] | Tao Takashi: | Tess: of course ,that's what I do :) |
| [10:21] | Zha Ewry: | I aimed for a slot before Zero's afternoon hours |
| [10:21] | Lom Hax: | Ina has a point. I've been struggling with the conflict myself. |
| [10:21] | FWord Utorid: | every day for a year has been wednesday offline for maintenance day. |
| [10:21] | Burhop Piccard: | me tooo (about conflict) |
| [10:21] | Tess Linden: | Dr Scofield: yes, sometime in March, look out for an sldev email soon with schedules |
| [10:21] | Lom Hax: | Though mornings are good so I'm not splitting up my work day. |
| [10:22] | Burhop Piccard: | I like the time, just not the day (but I'm flexible) |
| [10:22] | Dr Scofield: | ok, thx for the info |
| [10:22] | Lom Hax concurs with Burhop. | |
| [10:22] | Zha Ewry: | The OpenSim community, is looking for some solid progress on the client being OpenSim friendly, before then. We've sort of been wrestling with that on and off for a month now |
| [10:23] | ||