This meeting was held on October 21st, 2010

Agenda

Transcript

Transcript of Oskar Linden's Beta Server Office Hour for October 21st, 2010:

[15:00] Oskar Linden: what a loverly day for an office hours
[15:00] Latif Khalifa: lol
[15:00] Oskar Linden: welcome one and all
[15:00] lonetorus Habilis: plural hours?
[15:00] Oskar Linden: i'll wait a few minutes to let the stragglers get in
[15:00] SHAMUS Carter: hay bronson your mesh has not meshed
[15:00] Conover's Flight-Helper: 6.3.3 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.
[15:00] Oskar Linden: yeah. plural. we're doing a 6 hour session today
[15:00] CPU Core: is there a selection of meshes we can go take a looka t anywher?
[15:00] Oskar Linden: lots to cover
[15:00] lonetorus Habilis: WOOOO
[15:00] Oskar Linden: yes CPU
[15:00] CPU Core: great
[15:00] Oskar Linden: I would encourage you to check out the wiki :-)
[15:00] Latif Khalifa: Oskar, what did you say to Philip to make him leave? :P
[15:00] CPU Core: ok i will
[15:00] Sigma Avro: very fancy CPU
[15:01] JS Streamwechsler-HUD: whispers: Paskis' Radio TV - Initialised
[15:01] SHAMUS Carter: have fun exploring the mesh sims
[15:01] JS Streamwechsler-HUD: whispers: Warning, it appears that the land here is owned by someone else, or group owned. You will need to use the subwoofer, deeded to a group, to use the Radio TV on group land.
[15:01] JS Streamwechsler-HUD: whispers: Paskis' Radio TV - Ready!
[15:01] Oskar Linden: philip is his own man
[15:01] SHAMUS Carter: there are liek 30 snbadboxes
[15:01] CPU Core: i only installed this client 15 mins ago :)
[15:01] Gooden Uggla: well and diplomatically said
[15:01] Sigma Avro: philip fliped
[15:01] Gooden Uggla: type "mesh city" into the map here on aditi
[15:02] SHAMUS Carter: Yus !
[15:02] CPU Core: ok i will go find mesh city after the office 6 hours
[15:02] Jacky Scharf: Good evening ladies and gentlemen.
[15:02] Oskar Linden: oh I am tired today
[15:02] Oskar Linden: I was up at 6am trying to fix my truck
[15:02] lonetorus Habilis: why so
[15:02] Gooden Uggla: we'll take it easy on ya
[15:02] SHAMUS Carter: why so tirted
[15:02] Oskar Linden: didn't get it fixed so working form home today :-D
[15:03] Oskar Linden: silly bolts got stripped
[15:03] Latif Khalifa: heh
[15:03] Oskar Linden: hard to put parts back on when the threads aren't there
[15:03] Gooden Uggla: ouch
[15:03] SHAMUS Carter: fun fun fun
[15:03] Oskar Linden: my multithreaded truck ;-)
[15:03] Latif Khalifa: haha
[15:03] RedMokum Bravin: Doesn't sound safe Oskar.
[15:03] Sigma Avro: that is nice with, one never knows where you actually are
[15:03] Gooden Uggla: tapping and cutting threads is my least favorite thing
[15:03] SHAMUS Carter: the treds were nto threed safe lol
[15:04] Oskar Linden: I don't mind the tapping and cutting. It's like I am bending metal to my will
[15:04] CPU Core: hola
[15:04] Gooden Uggla: nothing more dangerous than a geek with hand tools...
[15:04] RedMokum Bravin: Only the metal gets thinner every time :-p
[15:04] Oskar Linden: they're huge botls though and die's aren't readily available at that size
[15:04] Oskar Linden: anywho... we should talk about beta stuff
[15:04] lonetorus Habilis: we should?
[15:05] Rex Cronon: greetings all
[15:05] Oskar Linden: i haz an agenda
[15:05] Gooden Uggla: oskar, we have a store called harbor freight here, IM me the dimensions and i'll ssend you the pages
[15:05] lonetorus Habilis: ohnoes
[15:05] Sigma Avro: should we ? agenda is all voice
[15:05] Latif Khalifa: world domination?
[15:05] Oskar Linden: we have harbor freight too
[15:05] JS Streamwechsler-HUD: whispers: Paskis' Radio TV - Initialised
[15:05] Gooden Uggla: then that's where you go
[15:05] JS Streamwechsler-HUD: whispers: Warning, it appears that the land here is owned by someone else, or group owned. You will need to use the subwoofer, deeded to a group, to use the Radio TV on group land.
[15:05] JS Streamwechsler-HUD: whispers: Paskis' Radio TV - Ready!
[15:05] Oskar Linden: but I can't get there cuz the truck is broke and I pulled the radiator ont he project car :-D
[15:05] Gooden Uggla: or at least start there
[15:05] Gooden Uggla: LOL ok
[15:05] Oskar Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta_Server_Office_Hours#Agenda
[15:05] Oskar Linden: so that is the agenda
[15:06] Oskar Linden: another wonderful week in linden land
[15:06] Oskar Linden: we should have a theme song
[15:06] Oskar Linden: L I N
[15:06] Oskar Linden: D E N
[15:06] Latif Khalifa: lol
[15:06] Gooden Uggla: hiya maestro
[15:06] Oskar Linden: L L A A B B!!
[15:06] Maestro Linden: hi guys
[15:06] Oskar Linden: Linden Lab... Linden Lab... Linden Lab...
[15:06] Oskar Linden: lalalalla
[15:06] Jacky Scharf: Yes ... a week with ghosts. :-P~
[15:06] Rex Cronon: hi
[15:06] Latif Khalifa: you're better than daytime soaps
[15:06] Marigold Devin: Ghosts :-))))
[15:06] SHAMUS Carter: V^vv^V HoWlLLzZz V^vv^V
[15:07] lonetorus Habilis: we where just signing feel free to join in Maestro
[15:07] Gooden UgglaGooden: Uggla adjusts oskar's meds
[15:07] Oskar Linden: we tried to make the grid more halloween friendly
[15:07] Oskar Linden: more ghosts
[15:07] Oskar Linden: get it?
[15:07] Oskar Linden: hah
[15:07] Gooden Uggla: lol yup
[15:07] Oskar Linden: no one got it
[15:07] Jacky Scharf: But not in this kind. :-D
[15:07] Oskar Linden: and everyone was like ohnoes more ghosted avatars
[15:07] Latif Khalifa: tough room
[15:07] Oskar Linden: but its halloween!!
[15:07] Rex Cronon: do u really want a song? who knows what u will get
[15:07] Marigold Devin: Not me - its my bread and butter in SL is ghostss
[15:07] Latif Khalifa: in some parts of the world
[15:07] Rex Cronon: sometimes parodies pop up:)
[15:08] Marigold Devin: hahaha nice
[15:08] Oskar Linden: after a few weeks with no production roll we had a candidate pass acceptance criteria this week
[15:08] Latif Khalifa: this might come as a shock but not everybody on SL is from the US ;)
[15:08] Oskar Linden: this might come as a shock but not everybody in the US is on SL
[15:08] Sigma Avro: means you found a criteria ? lol
[15:09] Oskar Linden: the criteria has been around
[15:09] Gooden Uggla: *smiles*
[15:09] Oskar Linden: LeTigre / Isentropic has had some issues
[15:09] Oskar Linden: the poor kitten
[15:09] Gooden Uggla: so tell us about the roll uncle oskar
[15:09] Oskar Linden: well!
[15:09] Oskar Linden: :-)
[15:09] Oskar Linden: it went well
[15:09] Oskar Linden: Andrews meint-server branch went out Tuesday
[15:09] Gooden Uggla: seemed to, yes
[15:10] Oskar Linden: just a tiny little math error
[15:10] Oskar Linden: teeeeensy
[15:10] Latif Khalifa: that's what she said :P
[15:10] Gooden Uggla: lovely... how many bunnies doed this time?
[15:10] Oskar Linden: other than that it's looking good
[15:10] SHAMUS Carter: math error?
[15:10] Oskar Linden: well with the math error we ended up with more bunnies :-)
[15:10] Latif Khalifa: lol
[15:11] Gooden Uggla: excellent :)
[15:11] SHAMUS Carter: •*•.. HahahaA •*•..
[15:11] Sigma Avro: exp 3 instead of exp 2
[15:11] Oskar Linden: the bunnies now replicate more realistically
[15:11] Maestro Linden: SVC-6426 integer *= float sets the interger to 0 when compiled as LSL.
[15:11] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6426:
[#SVC-6426] integer *=: float sets the interger to 0 when compiled as LSL.
[15:11] Oskar Linden: we put some tweaks on BlueSteel
[15:11] Oskar Linden: there that one
[15:11] Oskar Linden: thanks maestro
[15:12] Gooden Uggla: i have a suggestion.... remind people to restart their sims after a update roll, it seems to clear up performance issues - conversely, wait until a restart to report issues
[15:12] lonetorus Habilis: if i eat any more bunny im going to die from rabbit starvation
[15:12] Oskar Linden: so you want people to restart after a restart?
[15:12] Latif Khalifa: Gooden I have to restart my sim every couple of days anyway
[15:12] Gooden Uggla: there were a niumber of estate owners complaining of lag problems, a restart fixed them
[15:13] SHAMUS Carter: restart after restart?
[15:13] lonetorus Habilis: yeah it helped on my sim
[15:13] lonetorus Habilis: was really horrible after the roll
[15:13] Jacky Scharf: A restart to restart after a restart ...
[15:13] Sigma Avro: yes Oskar, I do it, cause some wrong intial conditions some time seems solved so
[15:13] lonetorus Habilis: could not log in
[15:13] lonetorus Habilis: or tp to
[15:13] Oskar Linden: so after the rolling restart another restart made things better?
[15:13] Gooden Uggla: yup latif, me too, but the upgrade restarts seem oddly incomplete for some regions
[15:13] lonetorus Habilis: only on 5th try did it work
[15:13] lonetorus Habilis: and then it was all laggy
[15:13] Oskar Linden: weird
[15:14] lonetorus Habilis: but a reboot cleared up any problems
[15:14] Oskar Linden: that's good
[15:14] Oskar Linden: I'll mention that to lil
[15:14] Latif Khalifa: restart might have moved you to a less busy server
[15:14] SHAMUS Carter: ahh thos old quarks dont you just love when you do somthign that shoudl nto make any difrtence but you do it anyway and maraculy it works
[15:14] Oskar Linden: back to the agenda. BlueSteel has some tiny tweaks
[15:15] lonetorus Habilis: its a full sim, but still
[15:15] Gooden Uggla: i have been suggesting that mainland people send in region down tickets when they run into that problem
[15:15] Oskar Linden: and LeTigre is still trying. We put out a new version of LeTigre to ADITI
[15:15] Sigma Avro: wich sims ?
[15:15] Oskar Linden: once andrews maint-server won the right to go to production his code merged to trunk
[15:15] Oskar Linden: then the isentropic code had to pull from trunk and merge with that
[15:15] Oskar Linden: and it was a hairy merge
[15:16] Oskar Linden: took a few days
[15:16] lonetorus Habilis: oh "anticrash_REGULAR: Attachments cannot use llVolumeDetect."
[15:16] Latif Khalifa: what's isentropi?
[15:16] Oskar Linden: brought about some discussion in our process
[15:16] Gooden Uggla: greek for "reversable"
[15:16] Sigma Avro: maybe no, leak, strange tehmodyamics
[15:16] Oskar Linden: isentropic is the code name that ambroff and simon were using for the code that has been on LeTigre
[15:16] Latif Khalifa: what does it do in the sim code i mean
[15:16] Rex Cronon: network conection went down:(
[15:17] lonetorus Habilis: In thermodynamics, an isentropic process or isoentropic process ( = "equal" (Greek); entropy = "disorder"(Greek)) is one in which for purposes of engineering analysis and calculation, one may assume that the process takes place from initiation to completion without an increase or decrease in the entropy of the system
[15:17] Oskar Linden: the names LeTigre, BlueSteel, and Magnum are really names for code channels.
[15:17] Gooden Uggla: oskar what should we be looking for with andrew's frankencode release
[15:17] Gooden Uggla: ?
[15:17] Oskar Linden: we'll call the projects differently
[15:17] Oskar Linden: on a given week the same project could be in any of the RC channels
[15:18] Oskar Linden: so I can't really keep calling it LeTigre,e ven though that is where it has mostly been deployed
[15:18] Oskar Linden: it's confusing. :-( I know
[15:18] Latif Khalifa: i get that part, i was asking which changes are in project isentropic
[15:18] Sigma Avro: Still this plan that by sim console one could select the RC ?
[15:18] Oskar Linden: nothing in particular gooden.
[15:18] Gooden Uggla: kk
[15:18] Oskar Linden: anything out there is out there
[15:18] Oskar Linden: so if people aren't seeing bugs that means there are none right?
[15:19] Gooden Uggla: latif the release said bug fixes
[15:19] Maestro Linden: That's not implemented in the sim console yet, Sigma. I haven't heard of any actual work in that direction.
[15:19] Rex Cronon: it means that nobody has done the "right" thing yet. the thing that makes bugs show their head
[15:20] Sigma Avro: Ok MLaestro , tks, that was Oskar suggestion seemed to me
[15:20] Oskar Linden: we do use those channels
[15:20] Oskar Linden: but there is no way at the EM level to choose yet
[15:20] Gooden Uggla: speaking of sim consoles... when can EM's get a copy of that viewer?
[15:20] Moundsa Mayo: Undiscovered defects are still defects. Being as yet unknown makes them, in some ways, worse than known defects.
[15:20] Maestro Linden: actually, the mesh viewer has simconsole support, Gooden
[15:21] Maestro Linden: it's under the "Develop" menu in that viewer
[15:21] Oskar Linden: it's the tree in a forest situation Moundsa
[15:21] Oskar Linden: :-)
[15:21] Sigma Avro: well Maestro, hope sim console will enlrag its capabilities
[15:21] Gooden Uggla: ok, i'll install that on my test machine tonight
[15:21] Moundsa Mayo: We cannot make any corrections without error signals.
[15:21] Oskar Linden: if no one finds a defect there is no defect
[15:21] Maestro Linden: yeah, there's not much in the sim console at the moment..
[15:21] Moundsa Mayo: Sue. Sometimes must repair defects to reveal others.
[15:21] Oskar Linden: as soon as someone finds it then it becomes a defect
[15:21] Latif Khalifa: schroedingers bug ;)
[15:21] Rex Cronon: if there is a bug that allows somebody to view the lsl code of no-mode scripts do u think that whoever finds that will come forward right away?
[15:22] Oskar Linden: the bug is both unfound, found, unfiled, and filed
[15:22] Latif Khalifa: Rex, depends on the person
[15:22] lonetorus Habilis: depends who
[15:22] Oskar Linden: if they are honest
[15:22] Sigma Avro: delta damge * delta discovery > 1 year teralindens
[15:22] lonetorus Habilis: some sl banks went under by such a bug
[15:22] Oskar Linden: but that would be a case of a found defect not an unfound one
[15:22] SHAMUS Carter: ugh i hate crashing
[15:23] Gooden Uggla: other SL banks went under because they were run by criminals...
[15:23] Oskar Linden: heh
[15:23] Oskar Linden: so... Display Names
[15:23] lonetorus Habilis: stealing from other criminals is that still a crime?
[15:23] Moundsa Mayo: Hmm. Semantics, more than anything else. Unrecognized defects can contribute observed effects that are ascribed to known defects. Only once the known defect is investigated and fixed might the crypto-defect be recognized.
[15:23] Rex Cronon: i guess that is called showing brotherl love:)
[15:24] Oskar Linden: Probably Monday the Magnum RC channel will get DisplayNames
[15:24] Jacky Scharf: Shamus: That's Life ... Second Life. :-D
[15:24] Sigma Avro: ah, and lsl scripts modified accordingly ?
[15:24] Gooden Uggla: cool, lone can get his L
[15:24] Oskar Linden: Display Names will stay on the Magnum channel for a week to test things out
[15:24] SHAMUS Carter: yep espicaly the mesh viewer ;-)
[15:25] Oskar Linden: Then very possibly see a full grid roll the week after that
[15:25] Sigma Avro: yes, but dispaly names will be implemented in lsl ?
[15:25] Oskar Linden: already is
[15:25] Rex Cronon: so the word "linden" can't be a substring in the display name?
[15:25] Sigma Avro: ah, sorry, lol
[15:25] Oskar Linden: there is a wiki on it from Kelly Linden
[15:26] Oskar Linden: he wrote on that topic in detail
[15:26] Gooden Uggla: oskar is display names in the mesh viewer?
[15:26] Oskar Linden: I don't think so
[15:26] SHAMUS Carter: could not find it there
[15:26] Oskar Linden: so we might be getting a new vwr
[15:26] Oskar Linden: we'll see
[15:26] Gooden Uggla: k
[15:26] Oskar Linden: I don't think it is in the 2.2 beta vwr
[15:27] Oskar Linden: well that's all I got for status updates on code and whatnot
[15:27] SHAMUS Carter: i still do not see the need for display names
[15:27] Lares Carter: are display names enabled on Morris?
[15:27] SHAMUS Carter: if you ask me there moslty just fluff
[15:27] Oskar Linden: was supposed to be enabled out here, but it keeps getting disabled
[15:28] Oskar Linden: it will be interesting to see what happens with Display Names from both POV's
[15:28] Sigma Avro: POV = ?
[15:28] Oskar Linden: point of view
[15:28] Sigma Avro: ok, lol
[15:29] Oskar Linden: Mesh is Mesh and not really on my radar so I have nothing to chat about there
[15:29] Oskar Linden: I'm guessing most of you have poked out there to check things out
[15:29] Lares Carter: jup
[15:29] SHAMUS Carter: Yus !
[15:29] SHAMUS Carter: mesh rocks
[15:29] Oskar Linden: I really want falcon to start making some tutorials about how to tweak for performance
[15:29] Oskar Linden: he knows a lot
[15:29] Sigma Avro: well, seems a long process to implement meshes. Many comments: UI, sharing with othert TPV, etc...
[15:30] SHAMUS Carter: yes the tpv are the key in the long run
[15:30] Rex Cronon: havok sees meshes threfore it might affect what u r working on
[15:30] Oskar Linden: we've been working on mesh for like 2 years or something
[15:30] Lares Carter: Oskar, you got my IM on Agni about Skybeam Aditi being offline for a couple of days and fixed it or it fixed itself?
[15:30] Oskar Linden: is it back up now?
[15:30] Sigma Avro: it is a great feature, hope 2/3 of avats will no be obliged to see sims full of planes
[15:30] Lares Carter: yep
[15:31] Oskar Linden: then you're welcome X-D
[15:31] Sigma Avro: planes = flat prims
[15:31] Lares Carter: hehe, well thanks
[15:31] Oskar Linden: so what happened when we added sculpts?
[15:31] Oskar Linden: 2/3rds of avatars saw what til they upgraded vwrs?
[15:31] SHAMUS Carter: i just hope that the tpv devs start forkign with the v2 codebase as sooner or later the 1.23 codebase will need to die
[15:31] Rex Cronon: ?
[15:32] Maestro Linden: they saw spheres, oskar
[15:32] Latif Khalifa: sculpts didn't bring crappy ui with them, there ws no issue upgrading
[15:32] Sigma Avro: sphere better. Problem is that BB of mesh are not seen by other viewers
[15:32] Oskar Linden: not sure what you want to hear latif
[15:32] Flynn Tigerpaw: using v2 is like driving at night with sunglasses.... hard tosee
[15:32] Latif Khalifa: nothing, just explaingin the difference
[15:33] Marigold DevinMarigold: Devin agrees with Flynn; its dark and depressing is V2
[15:33] SHAMUS Carter: yes the bb of meses are not noticeable to any other viewer
[15:33] Latif Khalifa: i know you got nothing to do with viewer dev
[15:33] Flynn Tigerpaw: I hope it gets brightened up b4 1.23 dies
[15:33] Rex Cronon: i think latif was just answering this: [15:31
[15:33] Oskar Linden: everything vwr2 related that I would have to say should be taken with the understanding that I agree with you about as closely as is possible even if I can't really say so <_<
[15:33] SHAMUS Carter: true
[15:33] Sigma Avro: honest v2 is not ergonomic. seems done to limit addiction
[15:33] Moundsa Mayo: B^)
[15:33] Jacky Scharf: Hmmm ... V2 code with 1.23 design ... that rocks.
[15:34] Oskar Linden: yes it is an understatement that vwr 2 has issues
[15:34] Moundsa Mayo: B^D
[15:34] SHAMUS Carter: yes the v2 codebase is prity nice the ui needs tlc
[15:34] Oskar Linden: every 5 minutes my eyes bug out and my face goes red and I want to punch things. then I calm down, write down what I hate about it and file a jira
[15:34] Marigold Devin: Not meaning to sound ungrateful, a lot of us know how much work went into V2 though
[15:34] Oskar Linden: it takes time and it's painful, but I really hope to make it better
[15:34] Oskar Linden: because it's not going away
[15:34] Marigold DevinMarigold: Devin thinks Oskar is v funny
[15:34] Oskar Linden: simple as that
[15:35] Latif Khalifa: i know some TPV devs like Imprudence are looking into incorporating meshes in v1 style innterface, it'd be display only for start, but that's a good start
[15:35] Flynn Tigerpaw: I want to use it but my eyes rebel
[15:35] Oskar Linden: I like how snowstorm is progressing
[15:35] Oskar Linden: I have made the very diffuclt step of forcing myself to use it
[15:35] Oskar Linden: every day
[15:35] Oskar Linden: for everything
[15:35] Marigold Devin: Maybe if the black was less black and somehow the 17" monitor didn't get turned into a 14.5" one
[15:35] Oskar Linden: and it hurts
[15:35] Flynn Tigerpaw: yes
[15:36] Oskar Linden: but I can see a lot of issues that others have missed for a long time
[15:36] Marigold Devin: I use it if I'm touring with newbies
[15:36] Oskar Linden: and I bring them up the the vwr team daily
[15:36] Sigma Avro: we all did this exercice in this group I suppose, but still, dont see any iontentions to change UI
[15:36] Oskar Linden: there have been UI changes
[15:36] Sigma Avro: detach windows ? It is the same result
[15:36] SHAMUS Carter: well they did brign detacabale tabs to the sidebar finaly
[15:36] Oskar Linden: but not skinning color changes if that is what you meant
[15:37] Marigold Devin: That is what I meant
[15:37] Flynn Tigerpaw: brighter and larger fonts on the menus would go a long way
[15:37] Marigold Devin: Its like the first Ford car - you can have any color as long as its black!
[15:37] Marigold Devin: And there are enough manic depressives in SL
[15:37] SHAMUS Carter: i still can't fathom why so meny of the necary headers for the old ui are no deprecatred
[15:37] Maestro Linden: so has anybody here been hit with SVC-6430 ?
[15:37] Marigold Devin: sooo sorry will STFU now
[15:37] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6430:
[#SVC-6430] Objects de-render: behind you when you look away, issue differs in ammount of objects de-rendered based on the used client.
[15:37] Oskar Linden: thankfully I like black, but yeah the UI is dark and difficult at times.
[15:37] Maestro Linden: I'm nto able to reproduce that at all..
[15:37] Marigold DevinMarigold: Devin moves to let Oskar use her as a footstool so she has a use!
[15:38] Oskar Linden: :-p
[15:38] Oskar Linden: I'll just start using your nickname MGD
[15:38] Marigold Devin: :-)))))
[15:38] Oskar Linden: then I can think of beer when we chat
[15:38] Oskar Linden: mmm MGD
[15:38] Marigold Devin: haha
[15:38] Sigma Avro: yes, cache of v2 is too small sized
[15:38] Marigold Devin: ooooooo
[15:38] Marigold Devin: I feel special now :-)
[15:38] Oskar Linden: I need someone whose nickname is PBR
[15:39] Oskar Linden: who wants to be Corona?
[15:39] Marigold DevinMarigold: Devin rushes off to make an alt!
[15:39] Oskar Linden: :-p
[15:39] Oskar Linden: is there a Meastro surname yet?
[15:39] Oskar Linden: Maestro I mean
[15:39] Sigma Avro: why limit cache to 500 ?
[15:39] Maestro Linden: Maestro Maestro
[15:39] Oskar Linden: I should ping jack about that
[15:39] RedMokum Bravin: How long before old family names will become deprecated?
[15:39] Oskar Linden: never deprecated
[15:40] Oskar Linden: they will always be there
[15:40] Maestro Linden: my viewer cache slider goes up to 1024MB with viewer 2.2 release..
[15:40] Gooden Uggla: get your family names now
[15:40] Oskar Linden: our system won't support surname deprecation
[15:40] RedMokum Bravin: So we get to keep them. Good. :-)
[15:40] Sigma Avro: deprecated when we will not come in sl anymore, for any reason :)
[15:40] Flynn Tigerpaw: the last active member of a family name should get a free sim
[15:40] Oskar Linden: then I can finally hijack Sigam Avro and use the account for my own
[15:40] Sigma Avro: all should ! lol
[15:40] lonetorus Habilis: some of the ast names have very few users
[15:41] lonetorus Habilis: like sub 100
[15:41] Oskar Linden: the last names?
[15:41] Oskar Linden: or the first ones?
[15:41] lonetorus Habilis: dunno how old they where, cant remember was looking through slnames.com
[15:41] Gooden Uggla: yup, i have one of those names... takes balls to be uggla
[15:41] Gooden Uggla: *wink*
[15:41] Sigma Avro: oops : Grant Linden: The SL Marketplace is currently experiencing network difficulties
[15:41] Oskar Linden: ruh roh
[15:42] Oskar Linden: slang for what exactly?
[15:42] CPU Core: i think my name is the rarest of them all :)
[15:42] lonetorus Habilis: its owl in swedish
[15:42] Oskar Linden: nah, that's a core name
[15:42] Gooden Uggla: lol
[15:42] SHAMUS Carter: spakign of the market place no wish list yet? :-(
[15:42] Oskar Linden: so about that agenda
[15:43] Sigma Avro: About meshes, wath is phylosophy, twill it be mandatory to import the different LODs ?
[15:43] Oskar Linden: I was approached by a few lindens this week
[15:43] lonetorus Habilis: shamus i was looking at wish list a few days ago
[15:43] Oskar Linden: cornered is more like it
[15:43] lonetorus Habilis: its not working?
[15:43] Oskar Linden: to 'discuss' the topic of listening better
[15:43] Marigold Devin: oh-oh
[15:43] Oskar Linden: to you
[15:43] Oskar Linden: the public
[15:43] Gooden Uggla: ok, i have a question regarding the jira... how does one re-open an issue with a "fix pending" designation that isn't actually fix pending?
[15:44] lonetorus Habilis: and then your truck conveniently broke down
[15:44] Oskar Linden: the impression some have is that we are hard nosed elitists who do what we want and allbedamned
[15:44] Marigold Devin: Do any of the Lindens actually take much notice of all the grumbles in the Second Life forums? You get a pretty good idea of the general issues
[15:44] Gooden Uggla: i refer to SVC-4632
[15:44] JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4632:
[#SVC-4632] People getting: past Estate and Land bans
[15:44] Oskar Linden: the forums are watched a lot
[15:44] Marigold Devin: And then it rumbles on like a rolling stone and blows out of proportion
[15:44] Marigold Devin: Issues need dealing with before that happens - somehow
[15:44] Marigold Devin: And the moderation process is appalling
[15:44] Oskar Linden: with the stress of our new release process there have been a lot of complaints
[15:45] Oskar Linden: Some people think that we are not doing enough to address issues and resident complaints regarding finding and fixing issues.
[15:45] Moundsa Mayo: Residents complain when the wind changes direction.
[15:45] Oskar Linden: true, but is it really just a perception thing?
[15:45] Marigold Devin: Well, Oskar, a lot are sheep, but there ARE some issues
[15:45] Marigold Devin: The length of time support tickets seem to take
[15:45] Oskar Linden: are we not listening, or are we lsitening and people jsut don't know it
[15:45] Gooden Uggla: not really, it's a real thing
[15:45] RedMokum Bravin: How many millions of users versus how many Lindens nowadays?
[15:45] Sigma Avro: well, sl does not really appears as a democracy
[15:45] Moundsa Mayo: In direction, probably not. The perceived degree is most likely skewed.
[15:46] Marigold Devin: And yes, Red, it looks like there aren't enough Lindens covering Support
[15:46] Oskar Linden: support issues is an entirely different ball of wax.
[15:46] Marigold Devin: ok
[15:46] Oskar Linden: I can't even get into that.
[15:46] Marigold Devin: ok
[15:46] Sigma Avro: So, a key, mimic democracies
[15:46] SHAMUS CarterSHAMUS: Carter dose hapy dace the favorits system is a fianly active on the market place
[15:46] Marigold Devin: but its all relevant at the end of the day. There is a crossover
[15:46] Moundsa Mayo: Anyone complaining loudly sees their issue as the top priority.
[15:46] Oskar Linden: load versus resources is way off. it doesn't help that everyone who desn't get listended to files 50 tickets all of which need attention
[15:46] Marigold Devin: Its this issue of having to know where to go to to be heard - I mean - forums, Jiras, etc
[15:46] Ellla McMahon: the Server TEam are great at responding to recent JIRAs :) Maybe the Team also need to say comment on older issues, say take 4/5 a day., even to comment, is this still an issue.
[15:46] RedMokum Bravin: When I tell people to attend OH they say "I come here to have fun".
[15:46] Marigold Devin: to the average Joe its confusing.
[15:47] Oskar Linden: all the older issues are on a backlog of items to be fixed
[15:47] Gooden Uggla: as an example, a bug that makes life diffucly for EM's has had a fix [ending since March, b ut hasn't been rolled yet...
[15:47] Gooden Uggla: difficult*
[15:47] Latif Khalifa: Oskar, I think it is true of other projects, like viewer and search, I've have very good experience with server devs for the most part. I've been trying to raise issue of the sim freezes for over a year without any server dev taking notice. It started 1.28-ish. That's the only complaint I have about server devs
[15:47] Oskar Linden: those are weighed against current needs and other old bugs
[15:47] lonetorus Habilis: oskar, we where discussing this also at yoz's OH, and i suggested there LL should start doing those surveys on the login screen like they used to
[15:47] Marigold Devin: I have no doubt that everyone here knows how hard the Linden folks work
[15:47] Marigold Devin: truly
[15:48] Sigma Avro: Major changes, involve all residents and theyr investment (althought it is a game). Seems fair enough to do these surveys in time, true
[15:48] Oskar Linden: what are the surveys gonna get us?
[15:48] SHAMUS Carter: they have been doing the survays latly
[15:48] Moundsa Mayo: Yes, Marigold - many of us here have been/are in exactly the same n-way bind ourselves.
[15:48] Marigold Devin: The ghosting issue for me is fun, but for those locked out of the "game" its pretty dire and offputting
[15:48] Sigma Avro: an idea of rresidents tatstes
[15:48] Sigma Avro: *tastes
[15:48] Latif Khalifa: and sims are still freezing up to 30 seconds at the time which make popular sims unusable. the perception is that lindens don't use sl and have no clue how crippling some issues are
[15:48] Oskar Linden: most residents don't want to be involved. How many are on the grid right now versus how many are here versus how many even care about 'beta' stuff
[15:49] SHAMUS Carter: how long till mono gets fixed?
[15:49] Marigold Devin: Yep, thats true. Not a great proportion want this level of involvement. They wanna be able to plug and play.
[15:49] SHAMUS Carter: that mono bug is anoying
[15:49] lonetorus Habilis: oskar, it will let ppl let off steam before loging in, also some agregation might be useful for getting to know specific moods towards chnages etc
[15:49] Oskar Linden: so lets keep the topic in an area I can control. server beta issues
[15:49] Flynn Tigerpaw: yeah it's probably just a small vocal minority
[15:49] lonetorus Habilis: currently you are getting mostly data from subset of comunities
[15:49] Oskar Linden: how can I learn abut issues faster?
[15:49] Rex Cronon: each time i took one of those surveys it crashed on me
[15:49] Gooden Uggla: i report a distilled version of what i learn to another 10-15 people, i assume everyone here dfoesn't keep info to themselves
[15:49] Sigma Avro: No, I mean changes as viewer. Done in high secret, with clamorous failure
[15:49] Marigold Devin: Absolutely, Gooden, I relay also to several people in various ways.
[15:50] Latif Khalifa: Oskar, you cannot be in a little box like that. Make an alt and go to popular places on a Saturday night somethimes and see what peple who use SL face
[15:50] Gooden Uggla: so we're a more representitive sample that you'd think
[15:50] Rex Cronon: u can offer bounties, oskar:)
[15:50] Marigold Devin: Latif, that is a brilliant idea.
[15:50] Sigma Avro: technical matters to imporve sims and all this does not imply everybody, true
[15:50] Marigold Devin: Like a mystery shopper. Marvellous idea.
[15:50] Oskar Linden: for me it really helps when issues are vetted and analyzed before they get to me. I get pinged on hundreds of things all of which I follow up on. 1 out of 100 is a real bug
[15:50] Oskar Linden: you guys are an excellent representative sample
[15:51] Moundsa Mayo: Yes, good filters will help Oskar most.
[15:51] Sigma Avro: no, we are not
[15:51] Oskar Linden: I've worked hard to make and keep the connections I have with all of you
[15:51] Rex Cronon: no. we r not
[15:51] Flynn Tigerpaw: How are you usually contacted? Im's, notecard, jira?
[15:51] SHAMUS Carter: were not random
[15:51] lonetorus Habilis: on technical matters, probably yes, but of sl as a whole, far from representative
[15:51] Oskar Linden: during a roll I'm in ears up mode and listen everywhere
[15:51] Moundsa Mayo: But important signals way down in the noise still need to be recognizable.
[15:51] Rex Cronon: most of us here r either scripters, programmers, or builders
[15:51] Oskar Linden: I get im's some jira's some forum complaints
[15:51] Sigma Avro: (lol, we are st... to take this seriously, lmao)
[15:51] Marigold Devin: I'm not. I'm a real no one! The representative for the pleb level
[15:52] Latif Khalifa: Oskar, it's not so much you that "don't listen", it's people at LL that determine which projects takes priorities that are tone deaf, it's too bad that you get to hear it ;)
[15:52] Rex Cronon: i said most. didn't i:)
[15:52] Marigold Devin: Oskar, of all the Lindens I ever met, you and Ambroff by far listen the most and are really open minded
[15:52] Sigma Avro: Agree with Latif
[15:52] Gooden Uggla: yup
[15:52] Sigma Avro: except Lindens here present
[15:52] Oskar Linden: that will be the case at any company that has a bottm line sadly. someone higher up is always making the decisions. but lets adress finding serious bugs faster.
[15:52] lonetorus Habilis: i think ll spends a lot of time figuring out what changes to implement and how they might affect sl, though sometimes they get it right sometimes not
[15:53] Oskar Linden: sometimes I think I am too openminded... kinda like the dude at the end of Dances with Wolves who started fighting for the indians
[15:53] Moundsa Mayo: Automated full regression testing is the best way to find serious defects rapidly.
[15:53] Gooden Uggla: oskar... if that was the case, the entire lab would be on the mono update
[15:53] Oskar Linden: we have a whole automation team and they have made real progress
[15:53] Gooden Uggla: that's the most pressing issue on the grid, and has 1 person
[15:53] Latif Khalifa: Lone, if someone with a clue run SL, they'd sat down server devs and say "fix sim freezes yesterday", about a year ago
[15:53] Marigold Devin: It doesn't help when emails go out promoting half price bunny rabbit sets. It makes LL look not very serious about their product somehow.
[15:53] Sigma Avro: Well, one thonks always better in many than alone,
[15:54] Oskar Linden: about a year ago they did Latif
[15:54] Oskar Linden: and it's taken that long
[15:54] lonetorus Habilis: heh
[15:54] Oskar Linden: and will take more time
[15:54] Latif Khalifa: Oskar, I don't believe that
[15:54] Gooden Uggla: babbage gave4 it one week a year ago and then said "i can't fix it"
[15:54] lonetorus Habilis: its a long time to have a defective product
[15:54] Oskar Linden: step 1 was we didn't have the tools to roperly diagnose what caused sim 'lag'
[15:54] Gooden Uggla: after killing bunnies :)
[15:54] Oskar Linden: so we switched to TCMalloc
[15:55] Oskar Linden: which still isn't out yet
[15:55] Oskar Linden: the switch to tcmalloc started last november!
[15:55] Flynn Tigerpaw: Rome wasn't built in a day
[15:55] Oskar Linden: it was part of isentropic but was held back because of other issues
[15:55] Moundsa Mayo: OK, then ... for teh few among us (I'm not one) who are natural defect detectors, a region or two here on which the automation can be run with tests added by Resident beta testers.
[15:55] Gooden Uggla: i am a big supporter of the recent changes in how things are getting done, but we screramed at the top of our lungs for a year just to get anyone to acknowledge something was wrong with mono
[15:55] SHAMUS Carter: rushed softwere is softwere destened to fail
[15:56] Oskar Linden: the automation stuff won't even be run on the main grid
[15:56] SHAMUS Carter: see vindows vista ;-)
[15:56] Oskar Linden: we've a full system nearly in place to replicate grids for automation testing on amazon services
[15:56] Gooden Uggla: awesome
[15:56] Latif Khalifa: I'm not speaking about general lag, about "freeze" where sim does not send anything for a long time, it started in one particular version of server 1.28-ish but no Linden took it seriously
[15:56] Sigma Avro: Would like to have a statitics bar infos that can be recored on my lab top , to give you precise infos, but I dont know how to modify viewer for this
[15:56] Latif Khalifa: I don't mind slow at times, but 30 seccond lockouts are killing SL
[15:57] SHAMUS Carter: what hammened to the fix for the lockouts?
[15:57] Moundsa Mayo: Yah, Sigma, I've long hunted a viewer that would stream an extract of that data to test logs.
[15:57] Oskar Linden: ?
[15:57] SHAMUS Carter: why was it reverted
[15:57] SHAMUS Carter: ghositng is back
[15:57] Oskar Linden: so I hear
[15:57] Marigold Devin: with avengeance :-))))
[15:57] Marigold Devin: sorry
[15:57] Rex Cronon: for real why don't u guys offer prizes for bug found? or make list for like top 10 bug finders:)
[15:57] Marigold Devin: It wouldn't be quite so bad if - again - Support were faster to deal with that particular issue.
[15:58] Oskar Linden: I don't know what really causes the ghosting or why it's back
[15:58] Oskar Linden: I know MGD, but we can't really count on support right now. they've got their own set of challenges
[15:58] SHAMUS Carter: they do have bountys on security jiras ort did
[15:58] Marigold Devin: I've had a girl stuck as a ghost for a week. She's been able to come in on the offline minute, but its tedious and she has enough RL issues to contend with, SL being her escape from them.
[15:58] Sigma Avro: (and this is caused by what [1] ?)
[15:59] Oskar Linden: no idea
[15:59] Marigold Devin: Hey, I'll volunteer as Ghost Monitor if it'll help!
[15:59] SHAMUS Carter: sl is huge
[15:59] Rex Cronon: couldn't u guys make a switch on the web that allows somebody to ungost their avatar?
[15:59] Moundsa Mayo: OK, then a way for in inworld Rsident to send asignal that will clear presence of a genuine ghosted account?
[15:59] Maestro Linden: I think the SEC jira issues still have a bounty if they were previously unknown
[15:59] Sigma Avro: well, I mena network problems of sl are not easy. Sure there are no many sch systems in the world
[15:59] Oskar Linden: the SEC issues do still have a bounty
[16:00] Marigold Devin: You can unghost your own avatar - if you know where it is ghosted inworld.
[16:00] Latif Khalifa: So "LL doesn't listen to it's customers" it's not just a perception, it's pretty much real. Nothing to do with the server QA team, I think you guys should be the model for the rest of the company.
[16:00] Marigold Devin: Its just not such common knowledge at the moment. And not really ideal.
[16:00] Ellla McMahon: Being very visible in the Forums and here at OH, if your Team doesn't address EVERY SL issue, including TPV issues, ALL Lindens will be accused of not listening. IMO Support (yes I know not your Dept) is the most urgent issue. Tickets being ignore IS "LL NOT listening"
[16:00] Oskar Linden: :-o
[16:00] Rex Cronon: how can u unghost?
[16:00] Marigold Devin: Agrees 100% with Ellla - this is a really serious issue
[16:01] Moundsa Mayo: Resident friends should be able to help out their ghosted friends - they have a good chance of knowing where the ghost is.
[16:01] Oskar Linden: well I have to work in the areas I have control over
[16:01] Oskar Linden: simple as that
[16:01] Ellla McMahon: You will never win Oskar until you fix ALL SL issues .. and well, that's impossible !!
[16:01] Rex Cronon: there is nowhere where u can what r the bouties
[16:01] Oskar Linden: I'm not planning on winning
[16:01] Oskar Linden: I just wanted to know how I can listen better and oncover issues with server bugs faster
[16:02] Moundsa Mayo: That wqold help clear given instances. Not as good as a final fix, but a help, and Residents can participate in teh temporary cure.
[16:02] Marigold Devin: Well, I am sorry Oskar for giving you grief, but all Lindens should be empowered to communicate more with each separate department, because they cross over.
[16:02] Marigold Devin: If Support are responsible for locating and freeing ghosted avatars ...
[16:02] Latif Khalifa: You're doing a great job, you and the rest of the QA team, way to go. (And as you know I don't often give compliments to LL) :P
[16:02] Oskar Linden: it's not like I don't know support is having a hard time
[16:02] Rex Cronon: where can u find what r the bounties?
[16:02] SHAMUS Carter: [2]
[16:02] Oskar Linden: it's not like support doesn't know it
[16:02] Moundsa Mayo: Yah, mutate teh Big Board OF Things To Do to the BIg Board Of Things To FIx
[16:02] Sigma Avro: sl is much better than ago, technically, this must be recon. Still, plans of sl are uncelar to evrybody.
[16:02] Marigold Devin: We all know they're having a hard time, but that doesn't help the residents
[16:03] Marigold Devin: Next OH Oskar, bring someone in from the Support department
[16:03] Oskar Linden: what help am I going to be walking in there and being like you guys suck do better work!! the same as if they come to me and are like WTH Oskar?? Ghosts again?
[16:03] Marigold Devin: We'll direct the grief directly at them.
[16:03] Oskar Linden: they don't need grief
[16:03] Jacky ScharfJacky: Scharf tries to translate EN>DE just in time ... btw
[16:03] Moundsa Mayo: Grief is not what's needed.
[16:03] SHAMUS Carter: A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you didn't even know existed can render your own computer unusable
[16:03] Marigold Devin: Get the wiki updated with the de-ghosting technique for now then.
[16:03] Marigold Devin: The wiki is well out of date
[16:03] Oskar Linden: of anyone at LL. support does not need grief. they are the most underappreciated group here
[16:04] Oskar Linden: anyway. it is time to close this exciting edition of Oskar OH
[16:04] CPU Core: just need more in the department
[16:04] Sigma Avro: yeah, fortunalty some cleaning is going on in jira, lol
[16:04] Marigold Devin: Oskar, as I look around at the names here, I see many familiar ones from the Second Life forums - we are supplementing the support department - supporting the support - so we do appreciate times are tough for them.
[16:04] SHAMUS Carter: the lindens do what they must to suport this huge grid it can't run it's self you know
[16:04] Oskar Linden: have a good one and thanks for coming

Beta Server Office Hours/Minutes/2010-10-21

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