Content Creation/Scripting User Group/Transcripts/2011 08 08

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List of Speakers

Aleric Inglewood Andrew Linden
Fancy Greeter flexi campfire
Helena Lycia Leonel Iceghost
Liisa Runo Mastorian Kingsford
Pauline Darkfury Roberto Salubrius
Siana Gearz


[09:00] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Nothing impossible for LL... -.-

[09:00] Mastorian Kingsford: up to 2.7 i loved the viewerss

[09:00] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi): I don't think there's anything regarding the UI like from v1 to v2.

[09:00] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi): I think it's just for the mesh movement.

[09:00] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): well it depends on of they're just playing name games or what

[09:00] F L I P (flip.idlemind): The viewer tag databases and whatnot will have to be updated

[09:00] Roberto Salubrius: it could have an ultrabasic mode, where... no idea it launches an app that places SL in a flash plugin in your browser

[09:00] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi): 'ello Kelly.

[09:00] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Hello...

[09:00] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Hello

[09:01] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): if V3.0 is really V 2.8.x then *shrugs*

[09:01] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): hello kelly

[09:01] Roberto Salubrius: aup

[09:01] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Namtase Kelly

[09:01] Helena Lycia: Hiya Kelly

[09:02] Pauline Darkfury: Hi folks :)

[09:02] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Kelly is lost in a ton of opened windows

[09:02] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Well good morning. :)

[09:02] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Hope everyone had a good weekend.

[09:02] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): 50E6 IM

[09:02] F L I P (flip.idlemind): There was a weekend!? ?.(?)

[09:03] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Good for some vale of good

[09:03] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Yes, but then someone hit the week reset button

[09:03] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Then they rolled in Monday :(

[09:03] tehKellz (kelly.linden): :)

[09:03] tehKellz (kelly.linden): All right, lets get started then.

[09:03] tehKellz (kelly.linden): News first.

[09:04] Siana Gearz: many bugs on Magnum? :P

[09:04] tehKellz (kelly.linden): The "scripting maintenance" project has been looking good on aditi and I think is likely to get an RC this week.

[09:04] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Yay!

[09:04] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): woot

[09:04] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi): :o

[09:04] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Magnum has Mesh right now - I'd jump to their User Group later today to bring up bugs there.

[09:05] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): so does LeTiger

[09:05] Liisa Runo: magnum and le tigre

[09:05] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): jinx

[09:05] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Yup. Mesh RC, Mesh_RC, Magnum and LeTigre all have mesh based code.

[09:07] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Which only leaves BlueSteel which has the latest server maintenance project on it. I haven't been watching closely but I don't see any new issues filed against it so maybe it will get promoted this week.

[09:07] Kichi (kichi.flux): o:

[09:07] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Do you know if Mesh will alos get promoted?

[09:07] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): also*

[09:07] Pauline Darkfury: I've got 3 or 4 BlueSteel regions, all seems to have been smooth on them

[09:07] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I'm pretty sure mesh is not ready to be promoted this week, but I'm not 100% on that.

[09:08] tehKellz (kelly.linden): We only ever promote 1 thing at a time, so it will be Bluesteel (server maintenance) OR Mesh OR nothing.

[09:08] Pauline Darkfury: I'd be extremely unhappy to see mesh promoted this week, tbh

[09:08] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): nods Will it at leasr stay on Magnum and LeTigre?

[09:08] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It will stay on 1 at least, I dunno which.

[09:09] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): PE calculations aren't ready for public consumption...

[09:09] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It will only stay on 2 if we don't have other things to put in RC.

[09:09] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): ahhh, OK

[09:09] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): PE?

[09:10] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Prim Equivalence

[09:10] Helena Lycia: Prim Equivalence

[09:10] Liisa Runo: Prim Equivalence

[09:10] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Prim Equivalence

[09:10] RaithSphere Enyo Darkstone (raithsphere.enyo): Prim Equivlance

[09:10] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, there's a fair number of folks in the Concierge group that are a bit horrified at the risk of mass-return of innocent objects if someone goofs when editing a mesh object

[09:10] Siana Gearz: should i chime in or it is too late?

[09:10] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): 5 way jinx

[09:10] Pauline Darkfury: (or if a griefer makes use of it)

[09:11] Helena Lycia: It's also a fairly complex number which I think's going to confuse a lot of people

[09:11] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): one would hope that only the changed objext would get tossed back, or the changes would jut be disallowed

[09:11] Nal (nalates.urriah): Confusion is Second Life's middle name...

[09:11] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Ppl will lose up to their prim hair, trying to find heads and tails

[09:11] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): just

[09:11] Pauline Darkfury: right now, the changed object can possibly stay, kicking off unrelated objects owned by other people

[09:12] Liisa Runo: i read for somewere in the wiki that LL is planning to get the latest edited item being returned instead of the newe'st to prevent this problem

[09:12] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Well that is a huge showstopper. Has anyne actually seen this occur?

[09:12] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It works in this order: We first attempt to block all actions if they would make us go over. However if we still end up over we return the last thing that changed. If we are *still* over (honestly I think this requires you cuting up and selling part of your parcel) then we do the same autoreturn that happens pre-mesh if you end up over the limit.

[09:12] Helena Lycia: I haven't dared try it on my sim

[09:12] Helena Lycia: I don't want to see my home in ruins

[09:13] tehKellz (kelly.linden): If you have repros that cause the wrong things to get returned please do file some jiras.

[09:13] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): OK, so the behaivior is predictable and basically unchanged from the past.

[09:13] Pauline Darkfury: If the example given at Friday's OH is accurate (given by Latif, I think), there's a case where a no-mesh prim object can bloat to 10x PE approx, that's potentially 2500-ish prims suddenly appearing on your quota in the worst case

[09:14] Mastorian Kingsford: lol

[09:14] tehKellz (kelly.linden): What makes it tricky is that for mesh objects, the objects can change their cost dynamically in some situations (such as rescaling). Which adds a new exciting edge case that we have attempted to cover.

[09:14] Helena Lycia: I've seen a greater than 10x increase

[09:14] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): at which point (see above) ith change would be disallowed.

[09:14] Helena Lycia: started with a 25 prim object and link a 2 PE mesh to it and the resultant object was 450 PE

[09:14] Pauline Darkfury: Fancy trying that link experiment with a 200 prim object, Helena? ;)

[09:15] tehKellz (kelly.linden): The non-mesh object bloated because he opted-in to the new accounting by changing some of the physics parameters - but not enough of them to optimize the content.

[09:15] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): That would be due to the 'size' change?

[09:15] tehKellz (kelly.linden): basically don't do that.

[09:15] Helena Lycia: No thanks

[09:15] Helena Lycia: There was no size change but it limits the use of meshes in vehicles

[09:16] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Quirina: please file jiras. :) I can't act on notecards.

[09:16] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): I think the the PE math needs to be clearly explained.

[09:16] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): * cough cough* Can we go back to scripts now... This isn't mesh UG.

[09:16] tehKellz (kelly.linden): :) Yes. Lets jump back to scripts.

[09:16] Helena Lycia: Yeah, that's later

[09:16] Helena Lycia: I have a question someone might be able to help me with

[09:17] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Mesh UG is in 2.75 hours from now.

[09:17] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Today is open discussion and I'm done with news.

[09:17] Pauline Darkfury: The bit that has me and other Concierge folks very concerned over it is not what we might do ourselves, but what a nooby tenant might do with an object that has an older rez date (so newer stuff could well get evicted), particularly where the rental is via a sim-wide land group

[09:17] Helena Lycia: I was setting up a scripted rezzer and fell foul of the cavaets listed in the wiki

[09:17] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): any updaet on when llCastRay() will be enabled?

[09:17] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Pauline: that shouldn't happen.

[09:17] Helena Lycia: However I think there's a caveat not listed

[09:18] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Kallista: no update. I think sometime after mesh ships probably.

[09:18] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Helena: oh?

[09:18] Pauline Darkfury: Kelly, that's not the impression I got from Andrew

[09:18] Helena Lycia: I'm not sure whether to file a JIRA about it though because the caveat seems sensible

[09:18] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Thanks

[09:18] Helena Lycia: Yes, the caveats about the owner of the object having to be online

[09:18] Nal (nalates.urriah): Kelly, How much do you think llCastRay() will affect combat games in SL?

[09:18] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): helena was it group owned land

[09:18] Helena Lycia: It seemed that not only did I have to be online but in the same sim (or as a child agent of the sim)

[09:18] Pauline Darkfury: Anyway, yes, don't want to derail this session from scripts

[09:18] Helena Lycia: Yes

[09:18] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Nal: I don't know since I don't program combat games in SL. It all depends on how it is used.

[09:18] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): yeah thats why

[09:19] Helena Lycia: But if I was online more more than 1 sim away the thing stoppe dworking

[09:19] Nal (nalates.urriah): Fair enough.

[09:19] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): if the parcel is set to group, and the owner has a prim not set to group it cant rez when they are offline

[09:19] Helena Lycia: Which isn't a listed caveat

[09:19] Helena Lycia: LIsten

[09:19] Helena Lycia: I was online

[09:19] Helena Lycia: But not in a nearby sim

[09:19] Helena Lycia: I KNOW about being online

[09:19] Pauline Darkfury: Are you talking set-to-group or group-owned parcels?

[09:19] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): hmm, odd

[09:20] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Old bug...

[09:20] Helena Lycia: The object was rezed and set to group but not deeded (I later got it deeded)

[09:20] Helena Lycia: But the thing stopped working when I wasn't on the sim or an adjacent sim, which is what I wasn't expecting

[09:20] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): castray is likely going to be used in situations like rendering blood spatters behind people when shooting them, or ensuring when you lie mines they don't go under the prim and thus 'hide'. It's unlikely you're going to see Linden-combat use llcastray in weapons for weapons fire, because of the whole thing about bullets having a velocity rule and likely sims don't want to see lasers everywhere that you zero chance of dodging or see.

[09:20] Pauline Darkfury: group roles have never worked properly for scripts when the object owner is not in-sim, as far as I'm aware (and don't really work anyway other than to avoid autoreturn on set-to-group land)

[09:21] Helena Lycia: So does anyone know anything about this? Should the wiki be updated with a new caveat or is this a bug?

[09:21] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): it needs to be understood properly before being listed as a caveat i would think

[09:21] Liisa Runo: i would say it is a bug

[09:21] Pauline Darkfury: Sounds possibly like expected behaviour, tbh

[09:22] Pauline Darkfury: In terms of group roles not being expected to work for scripts

[09:22] Helena Lycia: That's what I suspect but it's not documented behaviour

[09:22] tehKellz (kelly.linden): If you rely on group roles for the ability to rez then you will need to be online.

[09:22] Helena Lycia: I could see it being implemented for additional anti-griefer protection (although it's still annoying)

[09:22] RaithSphere Enyo Darkstone (raithsphere.enyo): I am curious whats the situation with the ability to set how much memory a script uses?

[09:22] tehKellz (kelly.linden): If you can see into the region then you have a 'child agent' there and will count as online to that region.

[09:23] Liisa Runo: also object to object inv transfer fail when owner of sender object is not nearby. prolly related bug

[09:23] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Otherwise it doesn't count. So it isn't that you have to be online it is that you must be 'in the region' for group role permission checks to succeed.

[09:23] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, it's not just being online, you have to be visible to the region running the script

[09:23] tehKellz (kelly.linden): That is a general caveat of group roles.

[09:23] Helena Lycia: Kelly are you saying that "online" actually means online in that region (or a child agent of that region)?

[09:24] tehKellz (kelly.linden): For group roles you must be in the region or have a child agent in the region

[09:24] Helena Lycia: Because the wiki doesn't say that

[09:24] Pauline Darkfury: Helena, either in the region (or having only just left it), or very close to it in an adjacent region

[09:24] Qie (qie.niangao): here's a relevant reference (from llGetParcelPrimOwners jira, long ago):

[09:24] flexi campfire: [#SVC-25] llGetParcelPrimOwners() only works when the script owner is in sim and shortly there after.

[09:24] Helena Lycia: I think the llRezObject and llRezAtRoot wiki pages need updating then

[09:24] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): i can update the wiki if you like

[09:25] tehKellz (kelly.linden): That would be helpful.

[09:25] Helena Lycia: It might help others (in my case I was able to get my rezzer deeded so no problem)

[09:25] Leonel Iceghost: Kelly, I've been watching lag when people play some games, and one of the problems is that they seem to have 3, 4, 5 things taking controls.. so even in well controled sims when 20 people move at the same time there are 2000-3000 script events per second

[09:25] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): The rezzing bug: SVC-3793

[09:25] flexi campfire:

[#SVC-3793] "Always allow 'Create Objects'" only applies to object-rezzing scripts when owner is online within same sim

[09:26] tehKellz (kelly.linden): That is a lot of events Leonel.

[09:26] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Doesn't deeding it to group still work?

[09:26] Leonel Iceghost: even if they only have if(changed) else return.. it is more than 2000 integer comparison per second just for scripts.. without counting the events "preparation"

[09:26] Pauline Darkfury: that sort of event rate is going to start hurting your region a lot!

[09:26] Leonel Iceghost: Kelly, that's not a lot, 25 events 4 attachemnts 20 avatar.. its the usual

[09:27] Leonel Iceghost: sadly

[09:27] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Regardless of how it happens or how common - 2k-3k events per second is a lot.

[09:27] Leonel Iceghost: if you can make a "control_changed" event instead, it may fix a part of the lag in those games, most script only do stuff when some key change actually

[09:28] Leonel Iceghost: just by pressint the mouse.. which is common in most games, it raises fast eps

[09:28] tehKellz (kelly.linden): That is an interesting idea.

[09:28] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): I thought adding new events was a no-no...

[09:28] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, I like the sound of that, the control event has always struck me as being kinda horrible in terms of activity compared to what's actually needed

[09:28] Liisa Runo: might also finally be time for llAllowThisScriptToRunInNoScriptParcelsWithoutWastingResourcesToTakeControls();

[09:28] tehKellz (kelly.linden): basically a 'control_start'/'control_end' kind of pattern like touches.

[09:28] F L I P (flip.idlemind): They added a new event, http_request (I think?) not too long ago (I think?)

[09:29] Leonel Iceghost: that would make a difference kelly

[09:29] Fancy Greeter: Andrew Linden has arrived!

[09:29] tehKellz (kelly.linden): We are limited to 64 events. I think we are around 30 now.

[09:29] Helena Lycia: Heh, I just want the control event to recognise when the Home key is pressed *giggles*

[09:29] Helena Lycia: Hiay Andrew

[09:29] Qie (qie.niangao): hmmm... maybe alternatively, change the kind of control events to which they subscribe... so it could still be the same control() event, but only generated on leading / trailing edge, if that's what they ask for.

[09:29] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): More keys is another wish on the list.

[09:29] F L I P (flip.idlemind): What makes you limited to 64 events :O

[09:30] Pauline Darkfury: Hi Andrew :)

[09:30] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi): Oh hey Andrew.

[09:30] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Adding new keys to the control event is far more difficult

[09:30] Andrew Linden: Hello. I've been meaning to attend this UG. Thought I would drop in for the last half.

[09:30] tehKellz (kelly.linden): For legacy LSL - the events are registered in a unsigned-64 bit integer.

[09:30] Helena Lycia: But it would help greatly with multi-mode vehicles, like simulation walking and flying

[09:31] Leonel Iceghost: any single key you can add, it would be great.. at least R for reload :P

[09:31] Pauline Darkfury: yes, being able to specify when we actually want to see a control event could well work on top of the existing one

[09:31] Pauline Darkfury: llControlChangesOnly(TRUE);

[09:31] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Unfortunately we really can't add *any* with a significant overhaul of how SL in general handles keys and movement.

[09:31] Leonel Iceghost: that sounds nice too Pauline

[09:31] tehKellz (kelly.linden): without*

[09:31] Qie (qie.niangao): or llTakeControlEdges()

[09:32] Leonel Iceghost: edges, who invented that variable name!

[09:32] Helena Lycia: You can sort of detect Ctrl+R ising llGetAgentInfo... unless tap-tap-hold-to-run is enabled

[09:33] Pauline Darkfury: the name edges pretty much comes from terminology for things like clock & data signals

[09:34] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Easier to just use a gesture that does a say on some specific script channel.

[09:34] Leonel Iceghost: oh ok, as a non english speaker, that word confused me a lot when learning lsl

[09:34] Helena Lycia: Not really when you've actually operating the vehicle

[09:35] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Why not?

[09:35] Aleric Inglewood: The alpha ordering bug stops me from seeing the display at the front :/

[09:35] Leonel Iceghost: gestures are not really secure also.. you open your channel for any griefer to send 1000k llRegionSay there.. and crash you

[09:35] Helena Lycia: If you're trying to get a vehicle to emulate standard SL movement then the Ctrl+R and Home keys are intuitive ket actions

[09:36] Pauline Darkfury: turn on Fast Alpha, Aleric

[09:36] Aleric Inglewood: how?

[09:36] Pauline Darkfury: Oh, not sure if Singularity has it, but check in Advanced->Rendering for it

[09:36] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Leonel, what's so difficult about setting up a llisten exclusively to the pilot's avatar?

[09:36] Helena Lycia: Why because I'm using a vehicle should I suddenly not be able to use the Home key to start flying, when I can use the Home key when I'm not using a vehicle?

[09:36] Aleric Inglewood: k, works :)

[09:37] Leonel Iceghost: Ash, sometimes users want your script to crash..

[09:37] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Leonel, so, how would it crash the script that listens to the pilot only again?

[09:37] Leonel Iceghost: the pilot is the user..

[09:37] Pauline Darkfury: There's something wrong with your script if 1000k llRegionSays crash it

[09:38] Leonel Iceghost: Pauline, ok..

[09:38] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): i beleive the event queue is.. 64 events. Right Kelly?

[09:38] Andrew Linden: Is that true? 100k llRegionSay()'s will crash something? Maybe it should be throttled.

[09:38] Leonel Iceghost: you can crash it in different ways

[09:38] Pauline Darkfury: All chat stuff is capped at 1023 characters, so either you've got too little memory free, or are not filtering properly, or have some other issue where you're just not processing chat properly

[09:38] Leonel Iceghost: there is a bug with a single character crash your script

[09:38] Pauline Darkfury: I'd be kinda surprised if a single object can do that may llRegionSays without hitting an existing throttle somewhere?

[09:39] Liisa Runo: just one message can crash stuff depending how the stuff is written. Badly made scripts crash, properly made dont. that is how it has always been

[09:39] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): I believe you can only queue up 64 events for a script at any single time at most?

[09:39] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): yeah ash

[09:39] Helena Lycia: Yeah, I doubt the crash thing. My point was purely for a standard user interface. if I can fly by pressing the Home key, then why can't a vehicle be controlled in the same way?

[09:39] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, 64 pending events max

[09:40] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): it would take a number of frames to emit that much

[09:40] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): a large number of frames

[09:40] Leonel Iceghost: and also gestures share the keys.. if you put three F1 of different games.. I wish you luck with costumer support

[09:40] Pauline Darkfury: you can certainly disrupt a script by chat flooding it, but I strongly believe that if you can cause it to stack/heap then the problem is bad coding

[09:41] Andrew Linden: The "Home" key is interpreted by the viewer to send "I am flying" info to the server.

[09:41] Pauline Darkfury: *bad coding in that individual script

[09:41] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Leonel, I deal with that in the SL combat scene. "Right click your my inventory folder and click detatch to ensure other gestures are removed."

[09:41] Andrew Linden: However, the state of pressed keys that control movement, and which are captured by scripts for vehicles, does not currently include the "Home" key.

[09:41] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Or just organise you bloody gestures

[09:41] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Gesture issues though seem more like a viewer problem than LSL though.

[09:41] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Thanks andrew.

[09:41] Helena Lycia: My question Andrew was, why can't it be included?

[09:42] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Mor like a user issue

[09:42] Leonel Iceghost: gestures are gestures.. it's not something designed to control stuff, it is a pain for the users

[09:42] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It would require reworking how the viewer tells the server about movement and/or reworking how the control event works.

[09:42] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Mosty they just end up chatting on some channel anyway

[09:42] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): leonel, most of sl is not used what it is designed for

[09:43] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It isn't *impossible* but it is difficult, especially if we don't want to break existing scripts.

[09:43] Helena Lycia: What about adding a bit to AgentInfo or some other function to trap it?

[09:43] tehKellz (kelly.linden): The home key isn't sent like other keys.

[09:43] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Another bit in the changed()

[09:43] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Leonel, the fact they support script channels seems intentional to me?

[09:43] Leonel Iceghost: Kelly, what about adding a new control event from scratch.. existing script could use the legacy one

[09:44] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Leonel: that is a possibility, but clearly a non-trivial project.

[09:44] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Sitting/attachee user is flying not flying

[09:44] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): that would take a lot of viewer code to do, implimenting a new one

[09:44] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Especially since we would probably want to collect as many improvements for the new version as possible.

[09:44] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): and server

[09:44] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, it's not something we want to be changing twice, if possible

[09:44] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Yup.

[09:45] Leonel Iceghost: Yes, I undestand

[09:46] Andrew Linden: Hrm... IIRC the movement keys are sent in the AgentUpdate::ControlFlags field of a UDP packet

[09:46] Andrew Linden: That UDP packet could (in theory) have data added to the end of it.

[09:46] Helena Lycia: Cool?

[09:46] Helena Lycia: And that wouldn't break existing things?

[09:46] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): you should come to these more often andrew

[09:47] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): That would mean that only new viewers can use the feature... Old ones would be anaware of the change.

[09:47] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): unaware*

[09:47] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Correct.

[09:47] Andrew Linden: Right. It could be done in a way that would not break existing stuff, but you'd need a new viewer to take advantage of it.

[09:48] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): thats not really an issue, forcing people to newer stuff is good, supportable

[09:48] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Except that resistance to V2 will be as strong for V3...

[09:48] Andrew Linden: And... there may be a problem with the server trying to read data that doesn't exist in the packet... I can't remember how that is handled off the top of my head.

[09:48] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, just having an easy path forwards that doesn't turn the lights out on existing stuff is the key there

[09:48] Mastorian Kingsford: lol no commit

[09:48] Helena Lycia: Well LL release new viewers all the time and many TPVs are updated regularly. So as long as people coded backward compatibility into their new vehicles for people who use legacy viewers, there shouldn't be a problem

[09:49] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Except many TPVs haven't even implemented media on prim which has been out.. how long now?

[09:49] Pauline Darkfury: People just need to be clear in advertising for products, which features are requirements for them

[09:50] Aleric Inglewood: That's because of the excellent documentation that LL writes.

[09:50] Helena Lycia: But as it stands now, I have to code odd key combos to simulate distinguish between flying and jumping and some laptopkeyboards can't handle multiple cursor key actions properly

[09:50] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): If you're not happy with the wiki... Fix it! You can.

[09:50] Pauline Darkfury: MoaP is an unacceptable security risk for some of us, Ash (holes in Adobe Flash, etc)

[09:50] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Requires XP sp3 or better,

[09:51] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): (flash is terrible, and always will be)

[09:51] tehKellz (kelly.linden): 9 minutes left, if there are any burning questions / topics we haven't got to yet.

[09:51] Pauline Darkfury: Top Scripts. It's much better, but times are still a bit odd, tbh

[09:51] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Odd how?

[09:52] Pauline Darkfury: It's now giving what I think are realistic numbers on a lightly loaded class 5, but they seem low on a heavily loaded C5

[09:52] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Pauline, I can do the same with parcel media honestly. Kelly, will prim_sound for llsetlinkprimitiveparamsfast ever see day light?

[09:52] Mastorian Kingsford: what changesin the new viewers in the invintory part have been done and is their a way to turn them on and off to get the performance of say 2.7 viewer ?

[09:52] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It isn't currently on my radar Ash.

[09:52] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Pauline: interesting.

[09:52] Pauline Darkfury: Ash, yes, parcel media has almost the same risk, but not as severe, as it is restricted to just landowners

[09:53] Pauline Darkfury: I.e. an AV with 600 scripts is showing as 0.400ms-ish

[09:53] Pauline Darkfury: On the heavily loaded C5

[09:53] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I do not know Mastorian. Sorry.

[09:53] Mastorian Kingsford: are we allowed to modifi our viewers?

[09:54] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Pauline: that does seem pretty low.

[09:54] Aleric Inglewood: An IP-flood to ping you off is a lot less attractive when it hit people who visit a griefers parcel, then when they can ping off random people anywhere by just walking passed them

[09:54] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): You make it sound like it's impossible to turn off auto play.

[09:54] Pauline Darkfury: I'm also slightly concerned that the 30m average might actually be too long. E.g. an object can basically sleep for 29m, then be horrible for 1m, but be hard to spot

[09:55] Nal (nalates.urriah): Mastorian, look through the Kirsten forum for more info on the inventory delay/lag thing. Kirsten says it is related to Direct Delivery being incomplete.

[09:55] Pauline Darkfury: The old behaviour was too spiky, no argument there, and it was tedious to have to refresh 5 times, then use Zen to interpret the numbers, but it did let us spot stuff which was spiking to high load over short periods

[09:55] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Pauline: Hrm, that is a valid point. That length is easily adjustible.

[09:55] Aleric Inglewood: If I'd implement media on a prim, I'd only have implemented it for ipv6 :p. In an environment like this you really can't give out ipv4 IP# between users (unfortunately). :/

[09:55] Pauline Darkfury: Tbh, and this needs a viewer & comms change, what we really need is 2 or 3 averages

[09:56] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): About detecting flying/landing in a vehicle Add two more bits to the changed() event CHANGED_FLIGHT (0X1000) and CHANGED_I(0X2000)

[09:56] Pauline Darkfury: Something like 5s, 60s, 5m, and 30m, or something

[09:56] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Kelly, with regards to Mono2, do you think it's come to a sufficient point when the new memory limitation functions become supported to actually use them in bullet rounds in weapons. Or would it be better off to continue using LSO in the meantime?

[09:56] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): CHANGED_ISFLYING

[09:56] tehKellz (kelly.linden): We can't reasonably track that much data per script.

[09:56] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, it would need to be done with reasonable overhead

[09:56] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Ash: I don't really know.

[09:57] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Alrighty. :3

[09:57] tehKellz (kelly.linden): The Script Maintenance branch does have some more script engine improvements.

[09:57] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): (Found it!) I wanted to ask if llSetContentType() will really be limited to the internal browser. That's very limitative... borderline useless.

[09:57] Liisa Runo: im sure Kelly will know later. Ask him the same question later

[09:58] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Kaluura: It will.

[09:58] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Bleeeehhhh! Why?

[09:58] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Sorry if that makes it useless. You can fake it by adding SecondLife to your user-agent string.

[09:58] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Why? Can't I just send a red "Access denied"?

[09:59] tehKellz (kelly.linden): hunh?

[09:59] Pauline Darkfury: You can send a 403 response with LSL HTTP-in

[09:59] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Why can't I just send a red "Access denied"?

[09:59] Pauline Darkfury: (I think)

[09:59] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): I mean, it would be more useful for outside browser than for the internal that pretty much nobody uses.

[09:59] tehKellz (kelly.linden): As Pauline says, you can detect in the script via the user-agent if they need to be blocked and just do a 403

[09:59] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): Kaluura is speaking about using HTML for non-Secondlife user agents I guess.

[10:00] tehKellz (kelly.linden): The intent is for HUDs and for scripts in world to be able to server HTML content to in-client browsers.

[10:00] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Right now, if I access http-in from my borwser, I can have only text.

[10:00] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Correct.

[10:00] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Wow!

[10:00] Qie (qie.niangao): right, I think the question is *why* the limitation. Why would it be bad to be able to do the same to an external browser?

[10:01] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): That isn't so uninteresting after all...

[10:01] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): I suspect media on prim not working by default when an attachments/hud may cause a stunt in usage for some scenarios.

[10:01] Ash Weststar (ash.qin): *on attachments/huds

[10:01] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Second Life servers, and LSL, make poor HTML servers to the general world. They have ugly urls and it is difficult to track down the actual owner past 'Second Life'

[10:02] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, it would also be useful to be able to specify the correct content type on things like JSON, XML, etc, for clean and standard-compliant integration between off-world servers that pull from SL

[10:02] tehKellz (kelly.linden): If the object is in world and you are viewing it in world it is possible to get the SL owner information.

[10:02] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): ugly URLS nice understatement

[10:02] Pauline Darkfury: Thinking for the RPC case of an off-world app pulling data from a SL object there, nothing to do with browsers that users look at

[10:03] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Right Pauline - adding those kinds of content types is not out of the question and shouldn't be too hard.

[10:03] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Ok, it is past the end of the meeting.

[10:03] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Thanks everyone for coming!

[10:03] Qie (qie.niangao): thanks, Kelly.

[10:03] Liisa Runo: thanks everybody

[10:03] Programmtest: ohhhh again im to late -.-

[10:03] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks, Kelly

[10:03] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): thanks kelly and andrew

[10:03] Aleric Inglewood: When you say "internal browser" I think that pop-up floater that is over my view to the world... then I want to use an "external" browser that I can use on another monitor... I guess I'm misunstanding here why external browsers are not considered interesting for this by LL?

[10:04] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Thanks again Kelly

[10:04] Pauline Darkfury: And thanks, Andrew :)

[10:04] Helena Lycia: Thanks Kelly and Andrew

[10:04] Nal (nalates.urriah): Thx Kelly

[10:04] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): and andrew

[10:04] Andrew Linden: Cheers.

[10:04] Mastorian Kingsford: :)

[10:04] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Aleric: I will think about that. I could possibly make it work for all browsers on your computer. It already only works on content you own. Anyway I have a busy day and must run. Thanks again everyone.