Content Creation/Scripting User Group/Transcripts/2011 09 12

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List of Speakers

Cale Flanagan
Fancy Detector
flexi campfire
Leonel Iceghost
Liisa Runo
Moundsa Mayo

Transcript

[09:01] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): =^_^=

[09:01] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Good morning

[09:01] Cale Flanagan: only 830 years? thats hard..:)

[09:01] Liisa Runo: morning

[09:02] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Evening...

[09:02] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): morning Kelly

[09:02] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Liisa you forget inflation, and the company's return on its investment.

[09:02] Liisa Runo: i didnt

[09:02] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Good Morning Kelly

[09:03] tehKellz (kelly.linden): just my wings.

[09:03] ?????-----o-----????? (imaze.rhiano): don't burn your wings!

[09:03] tehKellz (kelly.linden): So last week shoulda been triage, but was a holiday so we are back to general discussion.

[09:04] tehKellz (kelly.linden): News first. I don't really have any.

[09:04] Nal (nalates.urriah): Can you make something up?

[09:04] ?????-----o-----????? (imaze.rhiano): great.... then I should mention llTeleportAgent - just to be sure that is totally visible in transcript :P

[09:04] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): No news for llCastRay()... Stuck in the pipes?

[09:05] tehKellz (kelly.linden): llCastRay is enabled in "DRTSIM-92" which is the next server maintenance project. It should hit RC this week.

[09:05] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Yay! At last...

[09:05] Liisa Runo: ?

[09:06] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I *think* DRTSIM-91, the current server maintenance project should get promoted this week.

[09:06] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It has the fixes for llSetMemoryLimit and PRIM_LINK_TARGET

[09:06] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Yeah!

[09:07] tehKellz (kelly.linden): DRTSIM-92 has SVC-34

[09:07] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-34

[#SVC-34] Right-clicking another Resident's moving object freezes it

[09:07] tehKellz (kelly.linden): And cast ray.

[09:08] Leonel Iceghost: thanks for svc-34 :)

[09:08] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Seriously? Griefers won't be able to stop vehicles at random?

[09:08] tehKellz (kelly.linden): And SCR-53

[09:08] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-53

[#SCR-53] llSensorRepeat not triggering no_sensor unless a sensor event handler is present

[09:08] tehKellz (kelly.linden): And llGetMassMKS

[09:08] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): What is that?

[09:09] tehKellz (kelly.linden): And some stuff for setting the physics materials and shapte types.

[09:09] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Real Mass

[09:09] tehKellz (kelly.linden): llGetMass() reports in units of 100kg, for example if an cube is 1m to a side and the density is at the default of 1000kg/m^3 (the same as water), llGetMass() reports 10. Falcon has added a new function, llGetMassMKS(), which reports the mass in kg instead.

[09:09] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Is this going to apply to Avatars?

[09:09] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): why MKS and not Kg

[09:10] F L I P (flip.idlemind): "The MKS system of units is a physical system of units that expresses any given measurement using fundamental units of the metre, kilogram, and/or second (MKS)."

[09:10] F L I P (flip.idlemind): Yay Wikipedia

[09:10] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): What Flip said

[09:10] Leonel Iceghost: Avatars change whether they are in ground or flying right?

[09:11] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): no mass should remain constant

[09:12] ?????-----o-----????? (imaze.rhiano): we need llGetWeight function to simulate zero g situations :P

[09:14] tehKellz (kelly.linden): So, we've covered the upcoming releases. The floor is open.

[09:14] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): SVC-3713

[09:14] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3713

[#SVC-3713] Inter-sim version of llRemoteLoadScriptPin()

[09:15] SCR-90: :

llGetScale()

<2.00000, 64.00000, 2.00000>

llGetBoundingBox()

<0.99992, 0.00000, 1.00000>

[09:15] SCR-90: :

llGetScale()

<2.00000, 64.00000, 2.00000>

llGetBoundingBox()

<0.99992, 0.00000, 1.00000>

[09:16] ?????-----o-----????? (imaze.rhiano): Is that megaprim or new 64 prim?

[09:16] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Both are the same...

[09:16] Liisa Runo: 64 normal prim, but it give zero for any size, from 0.01 to 65Km prims

[09:17] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): What I think would be reasonable is to remove the ownership and in the local region requirements. If the owner has set a pin (implying permission to load) the system should not set additiona restrictions on the transfer.

[09:18] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): in particular loading a script remotly keeps the load on the region down , for scripts that are rarely acessed. they don't need to be there.

[09:18] tehKellz (kelly.linden): "local region requirements" are not just arbitrary or just a flag we check. It is *significantly* harder to do things cross region.

[09:18] F L I P (flip.idlemind): Permission to load if you *know* the PIN, but someone could *guess* it...

[09:18] Fancy Detector: Charlar Linden has arrived!

[09:18] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): the pin and the UUID of the containing prim

[09:18] Leonel Iceghost: it should have a flag to check creator, instead of owner...

[09:19] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): a bit more difficult to guess. and at 3 seconds a guess...

[09:20] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): That's still fast enough to update the scripts of all the meeros in one day...

[09:20] Moundsa Mayo: Not 3 seconds if a n array of serice scripts is used to attemp RemoteLoad

[09:20] Moundsa Mayo: [service]

[09:20] F L I P (flip.idlemind): Very rarely, someone's object somewhere could get a script added to it that it didn't ask for

[09:21] Leonel Iceghost: that is fixed by allow only the same creator

[09:21] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): The prim would need to ask for it by UUID+PIN+Script name

[09:21] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): That opens the door to "software copybot" if you can load scripts in somebody else's objects at random.

[09:21] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I don't think remoteloadscriptpin is really very great, especially for the product update case. Once we get to the point of "enabling" it for cross region behavior we might as well be building a whole new feature.

[09:22] Moundsa Mayo: New feature sounds good B^D

[09:22] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): That too...

[09:22] Moundsa Mayo: I'll check to see if i have some spare resources t help out there ...

[09:22] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): OK, new, properly implemented feature

[09:22] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Why not just 'llReplaceScript(key id)' that used the ID of a script? But is that really what you want?

[09:23] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Or do you want 'llReplaceObject(key id)' to update the whole object?

[09:23] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It should probably be something that just acts on the script or object itself, and not other objects.

[09:23] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Designed for (1) updates and (2)Dynamicly loading rarely used scripts.

[09:23] Moundsa Mayo: A set of flags that alows many permutations B^D

[09:23] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): YEs it need to be a load me

[09:24] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Yeah... Both are interesting...

[09:24] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Those are two *very* different uses that I'm not sure should be solved the same way.

[09:24] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Pull, not push

[09:24] Leonel Iceghost: we want to make "autoupdates" without bothering the user that much like now we do

[09:25] tehKellz (kelly.linden): both cases have issues with permissions, since permissions are not part of the asset.

[09:25] Moundsa Mayo: A new permission that is request first time owner rezzes product, like opting into updates of software for operating system?

[09:26] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I wasn't even thinking that kind of permission.

[09:26] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Well the issuance of a pin on the script in question is an explicit permission to upload.

[09:26] Moundsa Mayo: For same owner, yes.

[09:26] ?????-----o-----????? (imaze.rhiano): it sounds like that you need something that integrates to user account, inventory system and viewer - instead of scripting solution

[09:26] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): o the actual script could be no-mod no-copy

[09:27] Leonel Iceghost: also a way to "give inventory" inter sim would solve the problem too

[09:28] Leonel Iceghost: but we need a way to allow only the creator, if script creator == object creator

[09:28] Moundsa Mayo: And may provide broader utility, Leonel.

[09:29] tehKellz (kelly.linden): give inventory won't start scripts though.

[09:29] Liisa Runo: many of us have given out modable prims and modable scripts, so just checking for script/object creator is not real security

[09:29] Leonel Iceghost: but it gives objects

[09:29] Leonel Iceghost: that can be rezzed

[09:29] Leonel Iceghost: with scripts working

[09:30] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): ..if there are enough free prims...

[09:30] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): The idea is the there is a prduct X that has a master script (which is prettly large) and several very rarely used (alos large) helper scripts it could load them as needed at the cost of a 3 second delay have the do their things and then remove them, freeing up region resources

[09:32] tehKellz (kelly.linden): the cost of fully loading and fully unloading a script is high. It is probably rarely better to do it that way than leave the script idle.

[09:33] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): once a day or week?

[09:33] tehKellz (kelly.linden): maybe in that case.

[09:33] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): given that even an idle script still uses cpu time

[09:33] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): and memory

[09:34] Moundsa Mayo: So it can self-delete once it's done.

[09:34] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): exactly, or after a certain amount of idle time.

[09:35] Moundsa Mayo: That's how the SLRR switches work. They are loaded by a master script, make the routing change, then self delete.

[09:36] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): This is a generalization fo that feature

[09:36] Moundsa Mayo: Let the script decide on idle time before self-delete, or a parameter to control?

[09:37] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): that is up to the devloper

[09:37] tehKellz (kelly.linden): CPU time for idle scripts now really is very very low

[09:37] Moundsa Mayo: But not idle if Timer running?

[09:37] tehKellz (kelly.linden): So low in fact that they stop showing in the 'top scripts' estate tools

[09:37] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): yes but it is still there...

[09:37] tehKellz (kelly.linden): so low it might as well not be. really.

[09:37] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): no a timer just posts an event to occur at some future time

[09:37] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Less than 1 us

[09:37] Leonel Iceghost: so the statistics are broken kelly?

[09:38] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Which statistics?

[09:38] Leonel Iceghost: it says it fills 20ms with 10,000 scripts

[09:38] Leonel Iceghost: with 300Mb of ram, it should allow 100,000 scripts without summing one single ms

[09:38] Leonel Iceghost: 100,000 hellow world scripts that is

[09:38] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): so that is 3.8 CPU seconds a day

[09:39] tehKellz (kelly.linden): That is 2us per script, which is still incredibly small.

[09:39] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): per idle script

[09:39] Leonel Iceghost: that is a low to me

[09:39] Leonel Iceghost: a lot*

[09:39] Leonel Iceghost: sorry

[09:39] tehKellz (kelly.linden): That is not a lot.

[09:40] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood): Ah where are the old days where one could squeeze 4 million iops out of a lsl2 sim... (pre mono)

[09:40] Leonel Iceghost: you should be able to have 100,000 hello world scripts and 20ms spare time, and we are talking about 10,000 to fill 20ms

[09:40] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): with 7000 scripts that is a cppl of CPU minutes a day

[09:40] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Oh hell no you should not.

[09:41] tehKellz (kelly.linden): How often do you run 100k programs on your computer?

[09:41] Leonel Iceghost: 4kb a hello world script, you have 300mb right?

[09:41] Leonel Iceghost: they are not running...

[09:41] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): There is some reasonable amount of time to determin weither a script could be dispached, a no 0 time.

[09:41] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): which is why we should be bale to purge unused scripts.

[09:42] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): and reload as needed.

[09:43] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Couldn't fit 100,000 hello world scripts in a region anyway

[09:43] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Not very useful in the first place...

[09:43] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): nods

[09:44] Leonel Iceghost: you have only 100 avatars per region... if you want one day to have 1000 like any other game you should start to change your mind

[09:44] tehKellz (kelly.linden): The region will perform fine and scripts should continue to perform fine even if scripts don't get to run every frame

[09:44] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Leonel, this is not WoW, with a fixed environemnt

[09:44] Liisa Runo: (SL is not a game)

[09:44] Xentha Contepomi (questar.utu): o.O How exactly would you fit that many people into one place for any particular reason aside from the welcome hubs?

[09:45] Leonel Iceghost: this is not because these silly limitations all over

[09:45] Leonel Iceghost: a war Xentha

[09:45] Xentha Contepomi (questar.utu): lol.

[09:45] Leonel Iceghost: a party, anything

[09:45] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): there would be 64 m²

[09:45] Xentha Contepomi (questar.utu): Not even proper games have that many people in one place for something like that. Most I've heard is like, 24 v 24 things or whatever.

[09:45] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): per user

[09:46] Leonel Iceghost: you never played multiplayer games Xentha

[09:46] Xentha Contepomi (questar.utu): And for things like WoW, people just idle in town for the most part.

[09:46] Xentha Contepomi (questar.utu): That's why it's so crowded there.

[09:46] Leonel Iceghost: that's not true

[09:46] Xentha Contepomi (questar.utu): Prove me wrong. :p

[09:46] Liisa Runo: (we can also get SL to perform like games do, but that means we only have 32 different shirts in SL. 8 different vehicles, 12 different houses, and we cant modify them)

[09:46] Leonel Iceghost: wars make people more every seconds

[09:46] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): and in any case that is not the discussion here

[09:46] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): Leonel, I'll bet you've never played a Multiplayer game with 1,000 peeps in a 256m x 256 area

[09:46] Leonel Iceghost: I did

[09:46] Leonel Iceghost: lineage, wow...

[09:47] Moundsa Mayo: Then that's where you should play, Leonel.

[09:47] Leonel Iceghost: the client just renders 200

[09:47] Leonel Iceghost: but they 1000 are in a small place

[09:47] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Everyone play nice please

[09:47] Moundsa Mayo: This is one of the very few virtual platforms that target Creators,as much as if not more than Players.

[09:48] Koli DeAllura Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi): You can't compare a game to a dynamically changing environment.

[09:48] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): More than...

[09:48] Moundsa Mayo: Kallista, i always suggest to clients that they use the apprpriate tool for the job. No disrespect is ever intended.

[09:48] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I do agree we need to do more to enable game like experiences. But I think constantly working towards more and more scripts is probably not the best way. Instead we should be looking at ways to reduce the need for as many scripts.

[09:48] Leonel Iceghost: I like SL, Moundsa.. I'm trying to see it improved.. no need to go other games if this is the future

[09:49] Xentha Contepomi (questar.utu): SL is not the future of combat simulators.

[09:49] tehKellz (kelly.linden): To better enable access and control from outside sources - either other server or the participants' computers etc

[09:49] Moundsa Mayo: But no platform can ever serve very disparate needs equally.

[09:49] tehKellz (kelly.linden): And to move some of the things that really shouldn't require scripts out to other systems - like AOs

[09:49] Moundsa Mayo: Maybe if we could warp form SL to a game platform, then back, more easily.

[09:49] Leonel Iceghost: that's a 10 years old thinking Moundsa, now we have clouds platforms...

[09:49] ?????-----o-----????? (imaze.rhiano): any plans to reincarnate C# project?

[09:50] Koli DeAllura Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi): Well, TPVs have had AO's built into them for a long while.

[09:50] tehKellz (kelly.linden): imaze: No announced plans at this time.

[09:50] F L I P (flip.idlemind): Since this is listed in your scripting JIRA category, is there any chance we'll ever get any of the things contained in SCR-91

[09:50] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-91

[#SCR-91] llRequestAgentKey (llName2Key)

[09:50] Moundsa Mayo: No, I'm thinking right now, leonel.

[09:50] Xentha Contepomi (questar.utu): Random thought though. Has there ever been the notion to give the temporary setting a specifiable time?

[09:50] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): AOs in TPV are user-hostile at best...

[09:50] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Flip: There is always a chance, always hope.

[09:51] tehKellz (kelly.linden): 10minute warning

[09:51] Koli DeAllura Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi): Kaluura - I meant more of the underlining system it's self, not the UI for it. :p

[09:51] ?????-----o-----????? (imaze.rhiano): I like from Firestorm's AO - wasn't too hard to setup

[09:52] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Still the concept of AO is an horror. Whe should be able to just replace the anims, not crush them...

[09:52] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Right. exactly.

[09:52] Koli DeAllura Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi): That's true.

[09:52] Leonel Iceghost: we need a saw without configuring notecards, we should be able to throw al animations in folders and go

[09:52] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): llReplaceAnimation(), Kelly?

[09:52] Xentha Contepomi (questar.utu): What would be nice, is simply a section of the inventory that has the default animations, and a way to replace them with others from your inventory.

[09:53] F L I P (flip.idlemind): I don't imagine the server likes being asked if I'm walking 10 times a second...for example <.<

[09:53] Xentha Contepomi (questar.utu): That way instead of an overrider, you simply replace the defaults with the already set system.

[09:53] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Kaluura: Something like that. llSetAnimation(integer state, key animation)

[09:54] Popcorn! (female) whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to throw popcorn.

[09:54] Popcorn! (female) whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.

[09:54] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Though as SCR-26 made apparent, there are a LOT of states, not all immediately useful.

[09:54] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-26

[#SCR-26] llGetAnimation constant transparency

[09:54] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Altho key animation, I think you'll make yourself mortal enemies with that...

[09:54] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood): llSetDefaultAnimation(Animation_type, animation_key) ?

[09:55] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I don't think you want 'default' in there. You kinda want llSetAnimationForState but that is wordy

[09:55] Xentha Contepomi (questar.utu): Wait.

[09:55] tehKellz (kelly.linden): And llSetAnimation isn't currently used.

[09:56] ?????-----o-----????? (imaze.rhiano): llSetStateAnimation

[09:56] Xentha Contepomi (questar.utu): You're worried about wordiness when we have llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast?

[09:56] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Yeah... Please, no more llFunctionWithASuperLongFancyNameYouCannotRemember()!

[09:56] Squirrely Wrath (squirrel.wood): Like, LlWinTheGameImmediatelyBecauseYouAreSoCoolToday? ;)

[09:56] Moundsa Mayo: I'm still trying to get over 6-character assembler labels ...

[09:57] Cale Flanagan: llRemoveAllBugs()

[09:57] Moundsa Mayo: So I personally err on the side of hyper-wordiness.

[09:58] Moundsa Mayo: Helps in team work, though.

[09:58] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Actually the firestorm AO is quite good and non intrusive

[09:59] tehKellz (kelly.linden): You want to minimize confusion, maximize clarity and minimize key strokes.

[09:59] Leonel Iceghost: make the wordly functions and add autocompletion, and things like that built in in SL

[10:00] Cale Flanagan: a more consistent way toname functions would also have been nice

[10:00] Leonel Iceghost: so we no longer have to ctrl a ctrl c alt tab ctrl a ctrl v every two seconds :P

[10:00] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Times up! Thanks everyone for coming out.