Doc Team/2008-02-22

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You: Hello Ricken, welcome back again.
Ricken Flow: Hello Jeremy
WidgetHUD v1.1: Ricken Flow has pinged you.
You: I had some trouble getting here... let's see who else makes it :-)
Ricken Flow: :-)
Ricken Flow: i came in fine but the last officer hour with pathfinder he did not show.
You: Hm. I think he's on the road this week.
You: Hello Jon, welcome to Documentation Office Hours!
You: :-P
Jon Linden: hahahaha
Ricken Flow: hey Jon
You: Hello Becky, welcome back!
Becky Pippen: Hi guys!
Jon Linden: hello everyone!
Jon Linden: looks like the pose on this ottoman is back
Jon Linden: it ... it does strange things to my crabatar, i will observe
Jeremy Linden sees Jon embedded halfway into the ottoman.
Jeremy Linden also sees Becky's top as "Missing Image" and her skull clipping through her hair :-O
Becky Pippen: ut oh!
Jon Linden: i don't see the skull bit, but i do see a flower
Jon Linden: the "missing image" is happening for me too, though
You: Heh. Weird statements, altered perception.... I'm not on drugs, I swear.
Becky Pippen: did rebaking help yet?
You: Nope!
You: Not for me, anyhow.
Becky Pippen: grrr
You: I think I'm having some trouble with SL... I had a difficult time getting to Beaumont.
You: Hello Zola. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours!
Jon Linden: i'm IMing with a Resident who's trying to get here
Zola Darwin: hi thanks
You: Jon, if it helps, I had to set my location on login to get here. Lemme grab the article on how to do that.
Jon Linden: well, i was logged in already and just had a landmark handy, which seemed to work fine for me
Becky Pippen: use "beaumont/22/168/33 or whatever when you log in
You: Every time I tried to teleport, I got logged out.
Jon Linden: welcome to Documentation Office Hours, Jaszon
Jaszon Maynard: ty
You: Ah, here it is: https://secondlife.com/community/support.php?questionID=3978
Jaszon Maynard: Do I just blurt-out my questions?
You: Sure!
Jon Linden: feel free to have a seat, too
Jon Linden: my secret goal is to get one person on each couch
You: We're not quite as structured here as at WindLight office hours. Not quite as well-attended, either :-)
You: Check off that goal!
Jon Linden: NICE
Jaszon Maynard: Couch-ified
Jaszon Maynard: Is there a full overview of the client documented anywhere? Walks you through it, describes every menu (Edit, View, World, etc), the options, the dialog boxes, etc?
Jon Linden: not at present, though that's something we're working toward
Jaszon Maynard: Ok. Would make life a lot nicer for us newbies.
Zola Darwin: ok--i have question...where can i get basic intro info on something called silo.php
Jon Linden: there are articles for certain well-used windows (Preferences, About Land, etc)
You: There isn't, to my knowledge... it's something I considered at one point, but it would be an enormous project.
Jaszon Maynard: I found those in KB.
You: Hm. silo.php?
Jon Linden: zola, where are you seeing that file?
Jaszon Maynard: silo.php?
Zola Darwin: i've not seen it--i only heard of it--found an MIT site about it--that was way over my head
Jaszon Maynard: And if I want to learn about 1 feature, I search the KB...if I don't find info there, what's the next best place to look?
Zola Darwin: somethign about using my own server for SL objects?
You: Jaszon, you might also try the wiki: http://wiki.secondlife.com
You: And make sure to let us know you didn't find what you were looking for! You can submit a Knowledge Base Suggestion just like a support ticket through the support portal.
Jon Linden: i'm still trying to figure out this silo.php thing -- is someone outside of Linden Lab looking for a way to store inventory outside of SL?
Jaszon Maynard: Yeah...that wiki has virtually nothing oriented towards average users, newbies, etc. It seems to be all advanced topics, not basic info.
You: Zola, backing up your objects on your own server is not something we officially support at the moment... I'm afraid we won't have any information about it for you :-/
Zola Darwin: i think it was developed by Zero linden or some linden
Jon Linden: jaszon, what sort of info are you looking for?
You: True, Jaszon... is there a specific feature you're interested in?
Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy...you mean via that JIRA thing or whatever?
You: Nope nope... if you go to http://secondlife.com/support and you log in--
You: You can click "Submit Ticket", if I recally correctly, and one of the ticket types is "Knowledge Base Suggestion"
You: We need to advertise it much better, for sure!
Jon Linden: i may take a quick moment to search our internal JIRA for anything on silo.php
Jaszon Maynard: I thought JIRA was replacing ticket submission? Anyway, I'm only 4 SL days old, still a Basic account, I thought I couldn't submit tickets except for very particular issues.
Jon Linden: it is true that we tend to ignore tickets from Basics that get filed under any category other than the specified special topics
You: That's true for support issues, but KB suggestions are a special case.
Jaszon Maynard: Are Basic users allowed to submit suggestions? I didn't think they could.
MiaMy Jewell: Oh, whoops!
MiaMy Jewell: Someone's home?
Jon Linden: well, now that you're here, why not tell us some of these suggestions now
You: Hello MiaMy. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours :-)
Jaszon Maynard: Ahh. Ok. Can I also submit suggestions about the client, etc? Or just the KB itself?
Jon Linden: KB suggestions are pretty much just for the KB -- if you have a feature suggestion for the viewer, that belongs in the public JIRA
MiaMy Jewell: I'm an hysteric when it comes to any kind of technology.
You: Well, KB suggestions are suggestions for topics that should be in the KB. For client and server feature requests, you should use JIRA.
Jaszon Maynard: Ahh. That's a little confusing, when to use tickets vs. JiRA.
Jaszon Maynard: But ok.
Jon Linden: JIRA is really for feature requests and bug reports; tickets are for support requests
You: We've been discussing whether or not to add a KB suggestions component to JIRA. It would make sense there.
Jaszon Maynard: Be nice to just go 1 place for everything.
You: Hello Arawn. Welcome back.
Jaszon Maynard: Is there a glossary for newbies? LL had a GREAT one at secondlife.com/app/help/commonterms.php but they seem to be taking it down & not replacing it.
Arawn Spitteler would call it the Doc Project
You: Hm. I think Becky had put together a good glossary on the wiki, but we don't have a great one ourselves at the moment.
MiaMy Jewell: If you want my feedback, everything in SL is confusing! Jira, tickets, bug reports, preferences etc.
MiaMy Jewell: and Wiki!
Jon Linden: what do you find confusing?
MiaMy Jewell: Everything!
You: Heh. The purposes of the Knowledge Base is to try to make all those things less confusing. It's only natural, given the enormous number of options and controls available to any given avatar. :-)
MiaMy Jewell: It's all so overwhelming when you come in here, I just feel you need one central HELP point
Jaszon Maynard: They do MiaMy
Jaszon Maynard: It's terribly disorganized for the newbies, like me.
MiaMy Jewell: Well, where do you find it? Help Island?
Jon Linden: there's a difference between "seeking help" and "suggesting a new feature you want in the SL Viewer"
You: http://secondlife.com/support, MiaMy.
Jaszon Maynard: I'm trying to figure out what help resources even exist...hence my questions (a few more coming)
Jaszon Maynard: secondlife.com/support is terrible for newbies...as far as I can tell so far...but I have efw more questions still...
Jon Linden: Residents seeking help should head for the Support Portal; Residents who want to report a bug, or suggest a new feature, should head for the public JIRA
Arawn Spitteler: Help Island is too busy, and HIP 2 untended, but those should be the places to go
Jon Linden: the support navigation is something we've been working on redesiigning, actually
You: Ah. As for official help resources-- There's the Knowledge Base, the wiki, Help Island and Orientation Island (very close to here, in fact!) and, to a degree, the forums.
MiaMy Jewell: 404: File Not Found The requested URL /support, was not found on this server. Content on this site changes regularly, so it's possible that the item you're looking for is now in another location. You may want to try our web search, or try navigating directly from the homepage at http://secondlife.com. If you continue to receive this message after following a link from within this site, please send a note to webmaster@secondlife.com.
Arawn Spitteler: Are the forums open, yet?
You: Sorry MiaMy... it picked up the comma. Try http://secondlife.com/support
MiaMy Jewell: That's the message I just got when I went to that link you gave me.
Jon Linden: forums aren't under our control, Arawn
Jon Linden: i mean not me and Jeremy's control, specifically
Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, you mean the glossary in the SL wiki? That's a pretty technical gloassary, and small. Bad for newbies. That old LL glossary site was great. You can still get there, but they seem to be taking that whole site down.
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
You: Are you sure you're only 4 days old?
Jon Linden: what makes you think they're taking it down?
You: Heh. Jon, I think he's referring to the old Lore knowledge base.
Jaszon Maynard: Maybe almost a week now, I forget. But I'm a programmer, & a gamer, and I look into things HARD :P
Arawn Spitteler: More importantly, the sign at HIP says to hit F1, which should have an express link to a newby glossary
MiaMy Jewell: It seems to be 'hung up' ... or not responding.
MiaMy Jewell: But that's okay ... I'll look at it later.
You: It's being slow, MiaMy, sorry :-)
Jaszon Maynard: Because when you go to the home page of that glossary site (which has great pages talking about SL & the client too)...
Jon Linden: Jaszon, can you supply a link? now i'm all curious
You: Jaszon, what was the link to this great glossary?
Becky Pippen: Here's the glossary that I help compile -- http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Becky_Pippen#SL_Glossary :-)
Jaszon Maynard: There's no table of contents, it just says "go to secondlife.com/support"
You: How did you access it?
Jaszon Maynard: I'll give links in a sec.
Jaszon Maynard: F1 help is TERRIBLE for newbies...no link to an overview of the client, no link to glossary, no link to an overview of SL (though I have a great notecard that is overview of SL).
Jaszon Maynard: Ok, links coming...
You: We're working on that... I'm not any happier about it than you are, I'm sure... Pretty soon we'll be loading up the KB directly in F1 help, inside Second Life.
Jon Linden: when you say "overview," what exactly are you looking for? i have a feeling this might vary wildly from user to user
Jaszon Maynard: First I googled I think and found this beginning of cool info... http://secondlife.com/app/help/avatar/index.php
Jaszon Maynard: The KB in F1 would be ok...but not so great for newbies
Jaszon Maynard: I'll answer shortly Jon.
You: Oh whoa. That's the old-school F1 help. It hasn't been updated in years...
Jaszon Maynard: From the avatar link I just gave, found great glossary... http://secondlife.com/app/help/commonterms.php
ZHAO: Couldn't find animation Shy and Thoughtful Stand 5
MiaMy Jewell: This is all well and good if you have a background in computer technology, but if you are a hairdresser from Bullamakanka, you have no chance of comprehending all the things you need to know here.
ZHAO: Couldn't find animation Shy and Thoughtful Stand 5
ZHAO: Couldn't find animation Shy and Thoughtful Stand 5
ZHAO: Couldn't find animation Shy and Thoughtful Stand 5
ZHAO: Couldn't find animation Shy and Thoughtful Stand 5
ZHAO: Couldn't find animation Shy and Thoughtful Stand 5
ZHAO: Couldn't find animation Shy and Thoughtful Stand 5
Jaszon Maynard: But if you go to the root of that site, it tells you go to "secondlife.com/support"
ZHAO: Couldn't find animation Shy and Thoughtful Stand 5
ZHAO: Couldn't find animation Shy and Thoughtful Stand 5
MiaMy Jewell: Aaaah, that's an excellent glossary - thanks for that.
Jaszon Maynard: You are right MiaMy. Luckly, I'm a programmer ;)
Jaszon Maynard: It is great MiaMy.
Jon Linden: what does the set of "all the things you need to know" appear to encompass, for you?
You: Right, Jaszon... That version of F1 help was replaced with the support portal before I was even a Linden.
Jaszon Maynard: Sounds like the old-school F1 help was WAY better than anything I've found today.
Jaszon Maynard: I'll answer in a sec. Jon.
Jon Linden: the glossary Becky mentioned upthread is pretty good
MiaMy Jewell: I absolutely adore SL but I have NO technical aptitutde at all and I'm just plain overwhelmed by terms like Jira, Mono, Dazzle etc.
Jaszon Maynard: The .pdf Becky referred to you mean?
Jon Linden: yeah
Jaszon Maynard: I'll check it out later. My computer is kind of weak, don't want to do too many things at once :P
Jaszon Maynard: If it's good...put it on the web in HTML or in-world!
MiaMy Jewell: Like just now ... when I landed at the office over the hill ... there is a sign up there saying DOWNLOAD DAZZLE HERE - but absolutely no mentionof what Dazzle is, or what it does.
You: We're in the process of restructuring the KB so that it will be easier for new Residents to navigate-- there's going to be a section dedicated to learning SL from the beginning.
MiaMy Jewell: What is KB?
You: KB is Knowledge Base, sorry!
Jaszon Maynard: Ok, here's what needs to be easier for newbies to find (& updated a bit)...
Jon Linden: when it comes to things that are basic, like "learning how to move around inworld" or "how to interact with objects" or "how to chat," Orientation Island is really supposed to handle that kind of introduction
MiaMy Jewell: Yes and it does that very well.
Jon Linden: (hello Siann & Peaches, btw)
Jaszon Maynard: In Inventory:Library:Notecards there's a GREAT "HELP!" notecard. It neesd a little re-org for newbies, and I don't know if it's out of date...
Siann Beck: Hi Jon
MiaMy Jewell: The one thing that would be useful is to be able to go back to Orientation Island ....
You: Actually MiaMy, you can!
Jon Linden: that notecard is probably out of date
You: There's a public copy within spitting distance of here :-)
You: I'll grab a link for you.
Zola Darwin: or make it well know that there is a public orientation isalnd
MiaMy Jewell: I know when I first got into SL, I was hot to trot to get on with it and didn't spend as much time on Orientation Island as I may have needed to.
Arawn Spitteler: OIP isn't the same; I want a picture of that Dragon
Jaszon Maynard: But how will any average confused newbie ever find that notecard? Why is there no replacement for it, and well-publicized? MiaMy would love the Beginner Guide in there & FAQ.
Jaszon Maynard: Public copy ofo what Jeremy?
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: New users can't go back to "New User" Orientation Island.
Jaszon Maynard: Only Public O.I. Which isn't as good.
You: Of Orientation Island.
MiaMy Jewell accepted your inventory offer.
MiaMy Jewell: Oh, when I was at Orientation Island, I wa sure there was a sign saying once you leave here, you can't come back.
Jaszon Maynard: And when I was new, I quit-out once, came back, New User OI was down, so I was kicked out, never got to return, couldn't go back, couldn't finish the tutorials thjere. And the're better than Public OI.
Siann Beck: Yes, there is Mia.
Jaszon Maynard: I created a new avi just so I could go back there.
Peaches Pessoa raises her hand
Jaszon Maynard: How Siann? I've found no way to get there.
Jeremy Linden looks over the notecard.
Siann Beck: No, I was responding that there's a sign saying you can't return.
You: Jaszon, all of that information is duplicated in the Knowledge Base, and as such, is even searchable there.
Arawn Spitteler didn't notice that
Jaszon Maynard: You're right siann.
Jaszon Maynard: Which info Jeremy? From that notecard I mentioned?
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
You: Yes.
Jon Linden: peaches, you have a question?
Jaszon Maynard: Well...it's too hard to find then. I haven't found that info there yet. Most newbies seem not to. I don't think MiaMy has. Some of the Guides from that notecard should be slapping every newbie in the face the first time they enter SL, and should be easily find-able via LL site & F1 help.
Jon Linden: jaszon, can you give me an actual example of information you're looking for that isn't findable in the knowledge base?
Peaches Pessoa: Yes. I was wondering, what is the purpose of the liaisons? how can I get a hold of one if I need in-world help?
Jaszon Maynard: When one goes to LL support site, there should be a link..newbies click here for overview!
Jon Linden: that's actually something that'll be in the new support portal
MiaMy Jewell: Yes, that might be so Jeremy, but if you happen to leave Orientation Island early being told that you can't go back, you are still left with a feeling that maybe you missed out on some basic 'training' and if you're not told, "But you can find all this knowledge on the Knowledge Base (or wherever)" you still feel you are ill-equipped..
WidgetHUD v1.1: MiaMy Jewell has pinged you.
Arawn Spitteler agrees that panic buttons should not require recursion
You: Jaszon, our goal is to do exactly what you're describing-- We're in the process of making the KB more accessible, it's going to *be* F1 Help, and Jon's re-architecting the splash page of the KB to do the aforementioned 'slapping in the face' with good newbie articles.
Jaszon Maynard: Well Jon, I never went to KB andn typed-in "beginner's guide". If I do that, will I get back a good overview?
Jon Linden: the problem is that the word "overview" is ambiguous
Jon Linden: Overview: of how to use the viewer and navigate inworld?
Jaszon Maynard: It's no good if the KB lets me find all that info if I "ask the right questions". It has to just give me a whole overview. Table of contents even.
Jon Linden: Overview: of the actual world that is SL?
Zola Darwin: i have never noticed the library notecard 'HELP' reading it now and can't get to the how to fix ATI texture bug part--did you asay the notecard is broken? (BTW--in the KB i searched for "ATI bug" and only got info on how to report a bug
Jon Linden: by definition, the latter would be nearly impossible to produce
MiaMy Jewell: Everything needs to be in very basic language ... for instance, what does recursion mean Arawn?
You: Jaszon, if you go to the front page of the KB, you'll find a link that says "New to Second Life? How to get started."
You: In fact, it's at the top.
Jon Linden: it also depends on what the user wants to get OUT of Second Life
Jaszon Maynard: I think I looked at that Jeremy, let me look again.
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: Zola, that helpcard seems to be not working right now, I don't know why.
Jon Linden: the entire social component of Second Life is something that can only be described mechanically in the KB -- "how to create a friend relationship between two Residents" as opposed to "how to make friends"
Arawn Spitteler: Recursion is when a function calls itself; a panic button should never require a panic button
Jon Linden: much less something like "how to start a business" or "how to rent land to people"
Zola Darwin: ah--ok--but now i'm curious on this "ati texture bug' i'll keep looking for info on it
MiaMy Jewell: Yes, it's kinda like creating an enclyopedia for "How to Live Your Life" (in First Life).
Jon Linden: exactly
Jon Linden: is there something in this notecard about an ATI texture bug?
Arawn Spitteler: TP Trail was good for that.
Zola Darwin: jon--i see a hyperlink(?) but can't get to the information
Becky Pippen: Without any further qualification, an "overview" is really like a whole book -- like _Second Life: The Offical Guide_, available at your neighborhood bookstore :-)
Jaszon Maynard: There's 3 kinds of overviews...
Jaszon Maynard: how to "do" stuff...OI & HI are good for that...but it really sucks that Public OI isn't as good as new user OI...
Jon Linden: i'm looking at the notecard now, and i can't get to it either
You: True, Becky. As I (poorly) tried to explain earlier, it's a very difficult task to cover everything a new Resident could possibly want to know in a few paragraphs.
Jon Linden: there's a high probability that whatever "the ATI texture bug" is was fixed
You: I think that's in the KB, actually, Jon.
MiaMy Jewell: Actually, when you think about it, we don't get issued with a manual for first life either, do we?
Becky Pippen: :-)
Zola Darwin: jon--the notecard says" How To: Fix the ATI Texture Bug" ah perhaps that's why i can't find any info on it!
Jaszon Maynard: and if you leave new user OI for any reason (liek SL messes-up, which it did with me), you miss out on stuff. Anyway , that's 1st kidn of overview...how to "do" stuff in-world.
MiaMy Jewell: and it would be really handy there too!
Siann Beck: I don't think it's an unreasonable or interminable task to write a basic-basic primer on SL -- the mechanics of it, yes, but also touch on the social/business/etc aspects of it.
Siann Beck: Give people *some* idea of what they're getting into.
Jon Linden: but how basic is basic-basic?
Jaszon Maynard: 2nd kind of overview...overview of the client...menus, dialog boxes, etc. Earlier someone said that would be too hard to write. Can't be any harder than writing the manual for Microsoft Works...probably easier.
Peaches Pessoa: Why not show new users in-world videos? I left Orientation island as quickly as I could because I thought there was something wrong with the place because I had trouble controling my av
MiaMy Jewell: Is it possible to divide SL into 'basic' and 'advanced technologies'?
You: Now, something I've been considering doing -and I'd like your opinions on this- is creating a one page "cheat sheet" that covers all the basic movement, chat, and camera controls. Maybe building, too, if I've got room. Does that sounds like something you're asking for?
Jon Linden: the scope of a document such as the one Siann describes might make it prohibitively time-consuming as a project
Becky Pippen: Maybe like the wall of notecards at NCI, a notecard on many different topics about SL.
Jaszon Maynard: Good idea Jeremy. Make 1 note card for newbies, leave off "building stuff"
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
Siann Beck: It would be a start, Jeremy. I think it was several days before I figured out what "prim" meant.
WidgetHUD v1.1: Siann Beck has pinged you.
Zola Darwin: mvmt chat and camera controls are good for basic info--not sure 'building neeeds to be covered
MiaMy Jewell: I would regard 'building' as perhaps a more advanced use of SL than basic camera movements, chat etc.
Jon Linden: the Second Life showcase has a bunch of video tutorials: http://secondlife.com/showcase/
Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, support site seems to be REALLY slow, I can't check out that new user link you mentioned.
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
Peaches Pessoa: Yes. but that is something you find out about later
Jaszon Maynard: A glossary would help Siann
Siann Beck: Yes.
Peaches Pessoa: I mean running a few simple tutorials in-world
Jon Linden: there's a team working on the Orientation Island experience; neither of us are part of it, but i'll run some of these things past them when this office hour is done and see what they've already come up with
Arawn Spitteler: Notecards can contain notecards, and other objects, and might be a welcome gift, at places of focused interest
Jaszon Maynard: 3rd kind of overview...generaly intro to life in SL. That Library notecard has some great guides in that regard...but maybe old, plus hard-to-find.
Jaszon Maynard: Ok, 4th overview...glossary.
Jon Linden: jaszon, the second variety of tutorial you describe certainly seems like it'd be easy to write, but have you SEEN all of these buttons and menus and controls?
MiaMy Jewell: I can't recall seeing any classroom situations when I first came into SL ... that could be useful.
Becky Pippen: NCI
MiaMy Jewell: Do your basic orientation and then perhaps be led to classrooms when yuou're ready to incorporate more knowledge.
Jon Linden: as for the third type of overview, "life in SL" varies wildly from Resident to Resident
Jon Linden: some people are here to make a go of having a viable business; some people are here to make friends with ocelot avatars; some people are here just to show off builds or see some interesting sights
You: We did at one point use inworld notecards to distribute this kind of information, but it became too difficult to maintain them as Second Life grew and evolved. As a result, we started to move toward a more centralized knowledge storehouse, the Knowledge Base.
MiaMy Jewell: Those classes could cover things like Inventory Management, Getting Around etc.
Jaszon Maynard: Yes Jon, but even some of the guides in that Library notecard give newbies SOME footing about life in SL.
Zola Darwin: and--liek we just saw--notecards go out of date FAST
MiaMy Jewell: Wouldn't classrooms be a good place to get this knowledge?
Jon Linden: it seems like the sort of thing that may be more suited to the public wiki -- maybe
Jaszon Maynard: When they firstr arrive, they just want the slightlest idea of what's going on. If that notecard were in F1, and on the support site, and witih clear links to it, that would help.
Zola Darwin: miaMy--there are residnet run classes that DO cover those things
Arawn Spitteler: Will hte new KB have a link to the Wiki?
MiaMy Jewell: People who have volunteered as Mentors could be the teachers ....
Jaszon Maynard: Wiki would be good John.
You: The KB does link to the wiki, actually.
Jaszon Maynard: The wiki right now is terrible for newbies. Ther'es nothing in the oriented for them.
MiaMy Jewell: Yes, but you have to find them ... I'm talking about having the classrooms as part of Orientation Island.
MiaMy Jewell: That way you could meet others who are at the same stage of 'development' as yourself.
Jon Linden: MiaMy, the problem i can see with having classrooms on OI is that some new Residents -- like yourself, when you first showed up -- may not have the patience to sit in a classroom and learn things
You: True, Jaszon. The wiki is generally filled with the very most technical topics, and occasionally Resident-opinion topics, like "land buying advice"
Zola Darwin: eek--if i hadda take a class when i first create my SL account--i would NOT have like that at all--i prefer DOING stuff first
Jon Linden: see
MiaMy Jewell: Yes, that's why you need to be able to come back and learn when that first flush of discovery is past and you're feeling overwhelming and "stupid".
Siann Beck: Well, can the public OI be brought up to par with the newbie OI?
Jaszon Maynard: So, SL needs 4 things...better public OI, glossary, client guide, and world overview (like what's in the Library Notecard). And these should slap you in the face in F1, & at support site.
Siann Beck: Or even beyond it?
You: Heh. We also wouldn't be able to hire enough teachers to fill all the classrooms. There are actually quite a few Orientation Islands!
Arawn Spitteler: One limitation, to OI, is that you haven't the experience to learn anything from.
MiaMy Jewell: How many Mentors are there?
Becky Pippen: It is a little ... backwards... that the Mentors schedule classes for each other in their own private classrooms, but there are no classes regulary scheduled on OIs or HIs.
Siann Beck: Exactly, Arawn.
MiaMy Jewell: Yes, that's right Arawn ...
Zola Darwin: perhaps the bet thing for new people is to UNDERSTNAD and use search--to find classes or helpful places with helpful ppl (liek Help island public)
MiaMy Jewell: You don't know what uyou don't know ....
You: Jaszon, how would you go about explaining the building tools in the "client guide" without explaining the whole building concept?
You: Or, for that matter, some of the debug options in the Client and Server menus.
MiaMy Jewell: I really do think that Building is something you tackle once you've got the basics under control ....
MiaMy Jewell: Yes, exactly right Jeremy.
WidgetHUD v1.1: MiaMy Jewell has pinged you.
Siann Beck: I wouldn't expect an intro guide to go much beyond, "Here's how you create a prim and move it around."
Zola Darwin: sorry--where is this client guide your talkign aobut?
You: It's hypothetical at this point, Zola :-)
Zola Darwin: ah ok--sorry!
Jon Linden: jaszon has an idea for a notional guide that would explain basically every menu and window in the viewer
You: Whoops, did we lose Jaszon?
MiaMy Jewell: Yes, that would be wonderful.
Siann Beck: Anything beyond that would really be meaningless until the person's looked around a bit and *seen* how things are put together.
Zola Darwin: prodigious task!
Jaszon Maynard: I crashed
Jon Linden: no kidding, zola!
Jon Linden: also true, Siann
MiaMy Jewell: Well, an explanation of what all the options are under our FILE, EDIT, VIEW, WORLD buttons etc., shouldn't be all that hard ....
MiaMy Jewell: that would be a start in itself.
Jaszon Maynard: Everyone should read that Library notecard.
Zola Darwin: is ther a 'clent guide for Mozill firefox? or IE?
Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, I'm at the support site now, what's the new user link you wanted me to see?
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
MiaMy Jewell: There are hundreds of options up there and I wouldn't have the vaguest idea of what they are for.
You: Top link.
You: It's not the guide you're looking for, but it is a "new to SL" starting point.
Jaszon Maynard: Theh top link is KB & Solution Finder.
You: It shouldn't be...
You: It should say "New to Second Life?"
Jaszon Maynard: Or do you want me to go INTO the KB link.
Jaszon Maynard: I see no such link.
You: Right in the middle of the page. At the top.
Zola Darwin: it says, "New to Second Life? Find out how to get started."
Jon Linden: actually log into the Support Portal, Jaszon
Jon Linden: you should see it then
Jaszon Maynard: I'll login.
MiaMy Jewell: Would you like us all to have a look at this Jon?
Jon Linden: heh; i won't stop you
Jaszon Maynard: Ok, first of all, having to login to get new user help, you just lost 50% of the newbies. Why is info so secure it can't be read until logging in.
You: Yes, it's true Jaszon. We'll have that fixed in under a month.
Jaszon Maynard: Second, that link is WAY too brief. You need the 3 things I mentioned...or at least some of the 3 things I mentioned.
Siann Beck: Oh, that's another suggestion I'd make -- put the support portal login fields at the top of the page -- it took me a while to see them. I'd click on a link trying to take me in, and get that "Where to go for help"
Zola Darwin: fixed? as in no login necesssary?
Jon Linden: when the redesign goes through, there'll be no login necessary to read the knowledge base
Siann Beck: Great.
Zola Darwin: sweet!
Jon Linden: the only time you'll have to log into the support portal will be if you want to submit a ticket or start a live chat
Jaszon Maynard: A new user should get client overview, glossary, and some of the guides in the Library Notecard. Plust a better Public OI.
MiaMy Jewell: Sorry for being so dumb, but is the Knowledge Base accessible via the HELP button at the top of my screen?
Jon Linden: you have a HELP button?
You: Menu item, Jon.
MiaMy Jewell: Yes, at the top of my screen.
MiaMy Jewell: FILE, EDIT, VIEW, WORLD, TOOLS, HELP, CLIENT, SERVER
You: It is, indirectly. It's the first link, that one that also works if you press F1.
Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, have you read that Library Notecard? Will they ever putu any of those guides on support site?
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
Jon Linden: jaszon, many of the guides inside that library notecard are now in the knowledge base
MiaMy Jewell: So it's called Knowledge Base and Community Support?
You: Jaszon, most of them are actually already in the Knowledge Base. They're not all hyperlinked from a single menu like that, but they're there.
Zola Darwin: regarding live caht--i was curious about it jsut now and searched for 'live chat' in the KB didn't get any useful result--like WHO cn initiate a live chat? why should one try for live chat?
Jon Linden: live chat is a support option for Residents with a Premium account; it's for support issues
Jaszon Maynard: Well they should be...newbies should click an "I'm new" link and get a menu like that notecard gives.
Zola Darwin: jon--ok--but tht inof is not easily findable in the KB fyi!
Jaszon Maynard: Newbies can't find stuff in the KB if they don't know what question to ask.
You: Live Chat is for Concierge clients... that's anyone who owns a private Region/Island.
Jon Linden: that too
Jaszon Maynard: that's why an overview like that notecard gives is good.
You: That's also on the front page: Concierge customer? Residents who qualify for Concierge service also have their own Live Chat area and a phone number they can call. Information on accessing these options is available here for Concierge-level Residents.This link will not work for non-Concierge-level residents.
Jon Linden: zola, that info will be easier to find once the redesign goes through
Zola Darwin: sure--just letting ya know!
Jaszon Maynard: So should we submit tickets about any of this stuff...overviews, client guide, glossary, better Public OI?
Jon Linden: jaszon, it's obvious that you enjoy thorough overviews, and that's awesome, but it's also possible that some people might become confused and/or discouraged by such a welter of information at such an early stage of their Second Life
You: Jaszon, like I said earlier, we're in the process of re-thinking the folder structure of the KB. One of the new folders will be something along the lines of, "New to SL? Read this!" Just like that notecard.
Jon Linden: we keep a log of these office hours that we can go back and refer to
You: Yes, actually, Jaszon. It would be great if you submitted these as KB suggestions.
Time Minder: You have been online for 1 hours.
Jaszon Maynard: Well Jon, I'm thinking just TWO short guides from that notecard...just the beginner's guide, and the FAQ.
Zola Darwin: jeremy i DO think thatmew to SL info should tout the benefits of SEARCH!
WidgetHUD v1.1: Zola Darwin has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: Right now there's nothing easily find-able by newbies, and that clearly isn't' good.
You: inworld search, or KB search?
Siann Beck: I agree, Zola.
Zola Darwin: inworld search--how to find stuff to do in SL
Siann Beck: Inworld search.
Jon Linden: there's actually no need to submit tickets for the specific suggestions you made, jaszon; we'll have a log of this office hour
Jaszon Maynard: Zola, that library notecard touts Search, I think.
Jon Linden: i personally am probably going to reread it like seventeen billion times
Arawn Spitteler: Is there something for the Search Button, on OI or HI?
Jaszon Maynard: LOL@Jon.
Jon Linden: there's a lot of good information/requests in here, and things to follow up on
Zola Darwin: ok--but like i said--i never noticedthat notecard until NOW!
MiaMy Jewell: Surely, there must be some kind of log of the kinds of information that newbies ask for, or what problems peopl most commonly face.
Siann Beck: Same here.
Jon Linden: a lot of the stuff in that notecard is either currently in the KB, or so out of date as to be useless
Jaszon Maynard: I know Zola, prob almost no newbies do.
You: Orientation Island has an entire quadrant dedicated to Search.
Jon Linden: this a guess i'm making
You: That is, a quarter of the island.
Jaszon Maynard: So updateing it would be good Jon...just those TWO...begineer's gujide, & FAQ
Zola Darwin: yep--BUT...many (myself included) didn't realize how impt serch IS while we were on OI
Jaszon Maynard: Public OI doesn't have a quadrant about Search.
Jaszon Maynard: Once you leave that 1st OI, you never get to go back and learn the rest. SL accidentally booted me out of it, never to return.
Siann Beck: Which is the basic probelm on OI the first time through -- you don't know what you don't know.
You: ... It does. It's the blue section.
You: Very true, Siann.
MiaMy Jewell: You are talking about Public Orientation Island, bnut when uyou leave Orientation Island, I don't think yuou are told there is another Orientation Island you can access later.
Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, Public OI has no blue section, no quadrants, nothing on Search.
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
Zola Darwin: true that MiaMy!
Jaszon Maynard: Public OI isn't very good.
You: Thank you for clarifying.
Jaszon Maynard: New user OI is better, esp. for newbies.
Jaszon Maynard: But once you leave New user OI, you can never return.
You: We actually have a team dedicated to improving the OI experience. They've been hard at work doing research with new Residents.
Jaszon Maynard: Everyone on New user OI should be duplicated on Public OI.
Jon Linden: i'll no doubt be following up with the OI team on this entire office hour
MiaMy Jewell: I found that when I got out into the SL world after Orientation Island, I just wanted someone to be 'there' if I needed help, that's what I keep harping on about having classrooms ....
Jaszon Maynard: Sorry, I meant everything on New user OI should be duplicated.
Jon Linden: folks, i've got to go, but i completely encourage you guys to come back next week and continue talking about this
Zola Darwin: and look almost eaver couch has 2 AVs!
Peaches Pessoa: Thank you:)
Zola Darwin: thanks for hosting
Jon Linden: i have a feeling this will go down as possibly the most productive office hour (or potentially productive) we've yet had
You: Yes! We may have sounded a bit defensive this week, but this kind of conversation is EXACTLY what we hope for when we come here!
Becky Pippen: :-)
Siann Beck: Thanks, guys.
Arawn Spitteler: I think that's a good philosophical point. OIP is an OI for experienced users, but experience will make people try to look again at the original, which is now out of reach.
Jaszon Maynard: I hope it helped! Thanks!
MiaMy Jewell: I love SL - so I want to improve it any way I can.
Jon Linden: that's always good to hear
Jaszon Maynard: We're just passionate ;)
Jon Linden: come back next week!
ZHAO: Couldn't find animation Shy and Thoughtful Stand 5
MiaMy Jewell: It's a whole new world we're creating here.
Jaszon Maynard: If I can.
You: Thanks for coming, everyone!
Becky Pippen: Thanks guys!
You: I think we'll be looking over this log for weeks, and taking a lot of these suggestions under consideration.
ZHAO: Couldn't find animation Shy and Thoughtful Stand 5
Jaszon Maynard: I hope they do integrate KB into JIRA...that way everyone can vote "yes, we want a glossary too" :P
MiaMy Jewell: Thanks for having us.
MiaMy Jewell: You look very relaxed there Arawn.
You: Heh. The glossary is something I'm beginning to agree with. It shouldn't be too hard to grab the one from old F1 help.
Jaszon Maynard: Or rather, I mean KB requests into JIRA.
Arawn Spitteler: The couches are designed to look relaxed on.
You: Currently, I'm in the process of scrutinizing every single article in the KB and making sure they're up-to-date, and understandable.
Arawn Spitteler: CG Linden has chairs, where you keep falling to sleep, and jerking awake.
You: And yes, I agree on the JIRA thing, Jaszon. I think it would fit nicely in the WEB component.
MiaMy Jewell: What is Jira?
Jaszon Maynard: JIRA is a way of submitting bug reports and feature requests.
Jaszon Maynard: It's a LL site.
Becky Pippen: Jeremy, would you like a volunteer to look over that notecard in the Library to see what's up-to-date and what isn't ?
WidgetHUD v1.1: Becky Pippen has pinged you.
You: JIRA is also known as our "public issue tracker". You can submit bugs and feature requests there, and you can vote on ones that already exist to make them move visible to folks that can fix them.
MiaMy Jewell: Why is it a separate feature? So lots of people can contribute to it?
Arawn Spitteler wants to submit a feature request, for derivation of words like Jira and Wike at: http://jira.secondlife.com
Jaszon Maynard: Yes. Any user can submit a bug report, feature request, etc.
You: Heh. Thanks for the offer, Becky... I'm actually not the right person to ask about that, though. I think maybe somebody from the I-world team would be responsible for that.
Becky Pippen: ok
Jaszon Maynard: Arawn, perhaps if the glossary were big enough, it would handle questions like that.
Jaszon Maynard: Would make MiaMy happy.
You: Jira is a product name, derived from "Gojira", aka "Godzilla"
You: I don't know about "wiki" :-)
You: Actually, wait...
You: Wasn't it a Hawaiian word or something?
MiaMy Jewell: Yes, because I think I'm moderately intelligent but I don't know what an Evenlet is, or a Mulib.
MiaMy Jewell: They are listed on the Jira as 'issues'.
MiaMy Jewell: and you have Wiki and Knowledge Base .... aren't they the same thing?
You: A lot of the subjects in the public JIRA are specifically for developers.
You: Hm.
Jaszon Maynard: First day here people said "sim", I had no idea what that was, and I was reading everything I could and doing every tutorial. :P
Jaszon Maynard: I think the wiki is user-editable, the KB isn't.
Arawn Spitteler: Trying to distinguish SVC, WEB and VWR is daunting enough, and linden hours are spent going through the submissions of those who submitted anywya
Jaszon Maynard: The KB has more stuff that is usable by newbies.
MiaMy Jewell: Yes, knowing the difference between a sim, parcel, island etc.
You: Not exactly, MiaMy. The wiki isn't explicitly under our control-- Residents can add what they want, and modify what they want. The Knowledge Base on the other hand is guaranteed to be "The word of Linden Lab".
Jaszon Maynard: Yes, the JIRA is terrible with acronyms...SVC, VWR, etc...but they do explain in somewhere
You: As a result, the wiki contains a lot more technical descriptions, while the KB is designed to be more about "how to use Second Life"
MiaMy Jewell: It's like going through life having to carrying a ten volume set of enclypoedias with uyou!!!!!!
MiaMy Jewell: lol
Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, is LL moving towards help stuff being in wiki, or staying in KB?
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
Arawn Spitteler: Even Blog Issues should be Jiraed in DOC
MiaMy Jewell: And what's a blog issue?
MiaMy Jewell: God it's so easy to feel stupid here!
You: Actually, they co-exist pretty well right now. There are things that shouldn't go in the KB, like "how to start a successful business", for instance. Plus there's the LSL portal, the Open Source Portal, etc, all on the wiki.
Arawn Spitteler: I recently ran into a confusion, where the Blog announced Mono tests in Sandbox this and sanbox that, but this and that didn't appear in my map search
MiaMy Jewell: I'm sure there are a lot of people who are so overwhelmed and feel so stupid, they give up.
You: As I said before... the KB is more about "how to use Second Life". It's also good for posting policies, where Residents can't edit them :-)
Jaszon Maynard: They do MiaMy. Or I talk to somethat NEARLY gave up. It could be made SO much easier on them.
MiaMy Jewell: I am constantly hear new terms that I have to ask about ... like Mono Test and this new Dazzle I mentioned before.
MiaMy Jewell: What the hell are they? lol
You: We're making a really big push to improve in that area, Jaszon. We're aware of a lot of the ways we lose new Residents, but we're still working out the best ways to keep them.
Jaszon Maynard: My mantra...4 things...better Public OI, gloassary, client overview, Library Notecard on web.
You: Heh. MiaMy, those are new features that we're testing, but aren't necessarily critical for a new Resident to know about.
Jaszon Maynard: And if the client overview is too hard to write...can prob put that off for a bit.
Jaszon Maynard: Heh, I'm running Windlight right now. I'll try Dazzle soon, just to see ifi I have any comments.
Arawn Spitteler: MONO is a new product for Scripters; to better tell objects what we want them to do, and is on hte Beta Grid
You: Yeah. Dazzle, from a Resident standpoint, just makes the window graphics prettier... everything will be more silver instead of gray.
You: Internally, it'll make things easier for us to update in the future.
Jaszon Maynard: Dazzle is an interface look & feel upgrade.
MiaMy Jewell: Okay ... how's this for an idea? A Daily Bulletin when people log in just detailing "latest news" from Linden Labs?
Jaszon Maynard: When will they integrate Dazzle to Windlight? :P
You: It also means I need to re-take about 80 screenshots for the KB :-P
Jaszon Maynard: There's a daily blog MiaMy...
MiaMy Jewell: But you have to go to it?
Jaszon Maynard: but it seems to mostly talk about uptime/downtime/service issues.
Becky Pippen: The blog has much much more
You: http://blog.secondlife.com
Jaszon Maynard: So far as I know MiaMy...though I do have some notecard from OI about a newspaper.
MiaMy Jewell: You seem to have a very comprehensive knowledge Jaszon.
You: Second Opinion?
Jaszon Maynard: I learn fast.
You: I think that's pretty much out of print, at this point. Very sad.
Jaszon Maynard: Becky, the blog needs better tagging, and a filter...so I can just read about tips...I don't are about, say, land rollbacks, or whatever.
MiaMy Jewell: I used to run a newspaper in First Life ....
You: And yes, Jaszon... I'm extremely surprised at how much you've picked up in 4 days. Wow!
MiaMy Jewell: a small town country newspaper .... on my own!
MiaMy Jewell: lol
Jaszon Maynard: What's First Life? Is that defined in my glossary.... :P
Becky Pippen: it's defined in mine ;-)
MiaMy Jewell: Well, this is Second Life (which I regard as my "Real Life") and First Life is the first one I had.
Jaszon Maynard: I know Mia...I was kidding.
Arawn Spitteler: First Lag is also known as Meat-Side; It's a place Socrates was denigrating, when he described SL
You: Heh. As for the blog, we're working on a way to try to separate the status updates from the real news. That's something I'm not working directly on, but I'm pushing for it.
MiaMy Jewell: lol
Jaszon Maynard: Well Jeremy, I'm a programmer, & a gamer, have even done a little game programming.
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
You: Arawn, you know there's a Socrates Linden, right?
You: Heh. I'm the same way. I picked up SL very fast, but not -that- fast! :-)
Jaszon Maynard: I think there's still so much for me to learn.
Arawn Spitteler: The other Socrates, unless he's the same one, that was chatting up Plato
Jaszon Maynard: I'm interested in LSL eventually.
MiaMy Jewell: I think you either 'get it' or you don't .... I don't 'get' technology, but I do socially ....
You: Oh, that's a whole fun barrel of worms. Mono will make it even more fun :-)
Becky Pippen: yay LSL! Yay Mono!
Jaszon Maynard: Maybe soon I'll remove my "total noob" tag :P
You: Heh!
You: Dude, you type in complete sentences. You'll go far.
MiaMy Jewell: What excites you most about SL Jaszon?
Jaszon Maynard: Becky, do you ask people if they've got Mono? ;)
You: Heh. You don't get mono. You go to it!
Jaszon Maynard: The social aspects, + the chance to make things.
Becky Pippen: lol
Jaszon Maynard: People seek out mono?!?
Jaszon Maynard: And here I thought I was safe from STI's in SL.
You: Yeah. When I was a newbie, almost 3 years ago, I just plopped myself down in a sandbox and built stuff for a few months :-)
Jaszon Maynard: I want to wrap my avi in Saran Wrap
Arawn Spitteler has Mono, but hasn't used it yet: I don't suppose you could help me with Processing?
Becky Pippen: you can do that, Jaszon :-)
Jaszon Maynard: But I have to go to a fetish region first?
MiaMy Jewell: Okay folks ...
Becky Pippen: well.... :-)
You: Plenty of those around...
MiaMy Jewell: Yes ... just type in FETISH and there will be hundreds of choices!
MiaMy Jewell: lol
You: Thanks for coming, MiaMy. I hope this was a good experience!
MiaMy Jewell: Yes, it was ... I think I'm probably a good indication of 'moderately' intelligent as a yardstick for what problems people encounter or frustrations they have.
MiaMy Jewell: Although, I'm particuarly dumb when it comes to technology.
MiaMy Jewell: lol
You: But you can express yourself, which makes you a GREAT yardstick :-)
MiaMy Jewell: Good luck with it all Jeremy ...
WidgetHUD v1.1: MiaMy Jewell has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: I'm someone who notices details...and when anything's missing.
Arawn Spitteler: You don't need to know Quantum Mechanics to be bit by a rabid dog, in that other world
Jaszon Maynard: I can figure out SL...but I like to have iti laid out easy for me, and other newbies.
MiaMy Jewell: I think it's wonderful, really wonderful. We ARE creating a whole new world here and I love it!
Jaszon Maynard: Programmer = detail-oriented :P
MiaMy Jewell: Yes, I like things to be logically organised ... I'm really big on organising!
Jeremy Linden = once-upon-a-time wannabe programmer who was better at English.
MiaMy Jewell: I even LOVE doing my inventory!
MiaMy Jewell: lol
MiaMy Jewell: Bye!
Jaszon Maynard: Plus as an artist I'm a design freak
You: Bye!
You: Heh. Sounds like you'll fit right in here.
Jaszon Maynard: If I think an interface or website or a document isn't well laid out or complete, I bitch about it :P
Arawn Spitteler: Drop by Spirit City, and visit my sandbox
Jaszon Maynard: We'll see :P
Jaszon Maynard: Either that or I'll anooy people Jeremy.
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: I generally have opinions about...how a site is designed, how a product is deisnged, or documented,e tc.
You: Depends on who you hang out with. I bet you'd get along pretty well with some of the cool technical types I know here.
Arawn Spitteler: I don't suppose you play Go?
Jaszon Maynard: I'm still learning SL, I haven't fully figure-out yet exactly what I'll stick with doing in here.
You: Ah. Yes, I do that too. Around here it's just a matter of waiting for the parts you can't control to get finished.
Jaszon Maynard: A little bit, years ago Arawn.
Arawn Spitteler: My T-Shirt refers to the Go Center of Second Life, in Vineland Sim
Jaszon Maynard: I need better h.w. tho...I'll never be able to fight in Mos Eisley :(
Arawn Spitteler: hw?
Jaszon Maynard: h.w. = hardware
Jaszon Maynard: My frame rate is bad.
Jaszon Maynard: I can be a moisture farmer :P
Jaszon Maynard: I'm surprised the sci-fi areas of SL aren't more popular.
Jeremy Linden tried to play the Star Wars Galaxies Beta. He got killed by a womp rat and decided to become a jazz musician instead.
Jaszon Maynard: LOL@Jeremy
You: Oh, there are some good ones. Try Privateer Space, for instance :-)
Jaszon Maynard: Let me go Search for Privateer
You: I think that might even be the Region name, which you could type in to the map search.
Arawn Spitteler: Fantasy is quite popular, as is mysticism. It isn't all about Furry Bondage from Gor
Arawn Spitteler thinks there should be a Crusader Rabbit Sim
Jaszon Maynard: Ok, found Privateer Space in Map, not find-able in Search. I'll look into it later.
You: It's been great chatting with you all, but I've really got to go now. I'm an east-coast Linden and it's nearly weekend time! :-)
Becky Pippen: Bye Jeremy!
WidgetHUD v1.1: Becky Pippen has pinged you.
You: Bye all. Thanks for coming and sharing!
Jaszon Maynard: Ok, thanks Jeremy!