Doc Team/2008-02-29

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Jon Linden: hello everyone!
Nber Medici: Hello Jon
Jon Linden: just waiting for my ottoman to rez
Jon Linden: ah, there we are
Nber Medici: and Jeremy
WidgetHUD v1.1: Nber Medici has pinged you.
Becky Pippen: Hi Jeremy and Jon
WidgetHUD v1.1: Becky Pippen has pinged you.
Ricken Flow: Hello Jon, Jeremy
WidgetHUD v1.1: Ricken Flow has pinged you.
You: Hello all! Welcome to Documentation Office Hours :-)
Nber Medici: mmmm is Jon going to be crabby?
Jon Linden: heheheh
You: He just needs someone to take him out of his shell.
Nber Medici: HEHEHEH
Jon Linden: oh plffhahahaha
Ricken Flow: lol
Jon Linden: folks, we have some interesting ideas to bounce off you this week
Becky Pippen wiggles with anticipation
Jon Linden: but before i do that, does anybody have anything they want to bring up first?
Nber Medici raises hand
Nber Medici: hehe
Jon Linden: please do!
Nber Medici: I have a question regarding "Beyond the Veil?
Jon Linden: go for it
Nber Medici: well it sounds as if the Lindens want a formal will in order to transfer "ownership" of things
Jon Linden: that is correct
Nber Medici: which is OK I guess.... but
You: Hello Edward, welcome to Documentation Office Hours. Feel free to have a seat!
Becky Pippen gave you Davie Zinner's email.
Nber Medici: are you going to require that the wills have been thro probate?
Nber Medici: depending on the estate in RL that can take a LOOOONG time
Edward Griffith: ty - giving the slow worms a chance to draw their pixel alotment
Jon Linden: i should preface by saying i'm not a lawyer, so i'm not actually familiar with the term "probate"
Nber Medici: probate means that a court has adjudicated the will
Jon Linden: is that something all courts have to do?
Jon Linden: this might be a question i could answer for you by just running upstairs quickly
Nber Medici: again that depends on the complexity of the RL estate and the specific legal jurisdiction
You: Heh!
Nber Medici: here is my real question
Nber Medici: or actually my suggestion
Nber Medici: I could have a "will" written
Nber Medici: one that is JUST for my SL property
Nber Medici: this is a will that I would never intend to go to probate
Nber Medici: but would be given to LL to satisfy their requirement
Nber Medici: then I have another will that is for my RL goods that actually goes to probate
Deborah Goldblatt: hello all
Nber Medici: another subsidiary issue is the following
Nber Medici: what happens to MY no transfer items
Nber Medici: are they transferred to my legal heir?
Jon Linden: hello Deborah! welcome to Documentation Office Hours! you've arrived in the middle of a long question, hang on
Nber Medici: heheheh
Jon Linden: that's an interesting question, Nber
Nber Medici: I'm sorry if this is too much for this venue
Deborah Goldblatt: yes, ok, ty
Arawn Spitteler: KB might want an entry for Probate
Jon Linden: no, that's something i bet we'd want to put in the Death FAQ
Nber Medici: heheh ok another question then
Nber Medici: LOL
Nber Medici: I've been thinking on this
Jon Linden: i don't know if this is a dumb question, but would you WANT your no-transfer items to go to your legal heir?
Nber Medici: of course
You: My understanding of the will was that the heir gets your account, rather than just your avatar's things.
Arawn Spitteler: SL Death would simply mean that an account is not on line, not that a person is subject of a meat-side probate.
Jon Linden: so if the heir gets your account, s/he pretty much gets your things anyway then, huh
Nber Medici: mmm I would expect that my heir does get everything
Nber Medici: no Arawn this is RL death that we are talking about here
Arawn Spitteler: WEll, no alt of your account, to my knowledge, could get your non-transferable things, and an heir would be using an acount as your voice.
Nber Medici: so I own SL land... and therefore have to pay tier to LL
Nber Medici: of course not Arawn
Nber Medici: we are not talking about alt accounts
Nber Medici: we are talking about me dying in RL
Arawn Spitteler: If an heir receives your account, his own account would see it as an alt
Nber Medici: and wanting someone in SL and RL to inherit my property, lands, and posessions
Nber Medici: why should that be the case?
Arawn Spitteler: How would SL even see your Meat-Side demise?
Nber Medici: it should be that an heir gets my property
Nber Medici: because I give them a will
Deborah Goldblatt: she is right
Deborah Goldblatt: it is a last will and an act of legacy
Nber Medici: You may not transfer your Account to any third party without the prior written consent of Linden Lab; notwithstanding the foregoing, Linden Lab 

will not unreasonably withhold consent to the transfer of an Account in good standing by operation of valid written will to a single natural person, provided 

that proper notice and documentation are delivered as requested by Linden Lab.
Jon Linden: right
Deborah Goldblatt: and this may be has to be transporteed alsointo SL certainly
Deborah Goldblatt: but this needs a special documentation
Jon Linden: what needs special documentation?
Arawn Spitteler: Could this also be done by living will?
Jon Linden: maybe?
Deborah Goldblatt: the last will the transfer to sl
Jon Linden: that's another lawyer question
Deborah Goldblatt: and in sl
Nber Medici: totally different thing
Ricken Flow: hmmmmm is their a form in the knowledge base for the SL will?
Deborah Goldblatt: yes it is
Nber Medici: a living will is not the same at all
Nber Medici: no Ricken there is not
Deborah Goldblatt: the thing is
Nber Medici: and this is a real RL will
Jon Linden: there is no form in the KB for a will of any sort
You: There is no such thing as an official Second Life will... It would be a real-life will that includes your Second Life account.
Deborah Goldblatt: that if we pay taxes and the gov is entering in SL in any form with taxes and else
Jon Linden: what Jeremy said
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you.
Nber Medici: correct
Deborah Goldblatt: wo this is a part
Deborah Goldblatt: yes
Deborah Goldblatt: so itis
Deborah Goldblatt: Jeremy
WidgetHUD v1.1: Deborah Goldblatt has pinged you.
Jon Linden: hello Rob!
Edward Griffith: Nber - usual disclaimers aboLinden couldn't posibly do that ( a form) as it would lead to leagal nighmares
Deborah Goldblatt: yes, what jEREMY SAID
WidgetHUD v1.1: Deborah Goldblatt has pinged you.
Rob Linden: hi folks....Jon and Jeremy, hope you don't mind my crashing
WidgetHUD v1.1: Rob Linden has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: My question is about what content is ok for the SL wiki. I have 6 pages of stuff I'm working on in my user space at 

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Jaszons_sandbox I want to make sure it's considered ok content for the wiki.
Becky Pippen: Hi Rob!
You: Glad to have you, Rob!
Edward Griffith: but a will for something uncontested can be very simple
Jon Linden: actually, Jaszon, that's probably why rob's here
Jaszon Maynard: Prob so ;)
Jon Linden: we had an interesting meeting the other day about wiki content
You: Lucky for us Rob showed up just now :-)
Ricken Flow: hmmmmm how would that transfer to group owned land?
Edward Griffith: ok - I'm going to lay out my q too - so you folks can start a punch list
Edward Griffith: My comment also relates to the Veil KB article. I posted a couple of comments on the blog - but I see a lot of people commenting and 

focusing still on the issue of trying to ID someone threatening Suicide. This underscores the need for expansion of the KB as that is the wrong way to 

approach the situation
Jon Linden: that's another question to which i have no ready answer, Ricken
Nber Medici: Ricken that is another interesting associated issue
Rob Linden: Jaszon and I have been discussing the wiki here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project:Editing_Discussion#Creating_a_Help_portal
Jon Linden: Edward, the idea is that we want Residents to be able to help each other, but we can't give RL information out
Deborah Goldblatt: HIGHLY RECOMMANDED DATASECURITY
Edward Griffith: I understand - and agree.
You: Jaszon's question does segue into one of the topics we were going to talk to you about today, as well... once we get through the concerns you all 

brought with you :-)
Jon Linden: indeed
Jaszon Maynard: I guess I have 3 questions: is it ok content, can it get to the Main Page someday, & are we going to separate stuff by namespace.
Edward Griffith: But you SHOULD give out info on how to handle the situation
Nber Medici: mmmmm
Ricken Flow: once i get a new wireless network card for my pc i am going to start looking at the wiki projects
Edward Griffith: and that DOES NOT involve trying to ID the person
Jon Linden: edward, i added some links to helpful suicide resources to the KB article
Nber Medici: How about the legal issues that I have raised?
Edward Griffith: It involves listening and then trying to get them to seek trained help
Jon Linden: that's basically what the article states
Edward Griffith: That info and links to it you can provide
Ricken Flow: there are several groups in SL that have licensed counselors and some specialize in suicide prevention
Jon Linden: edward, that information is now in the article
Edward Griffith: great ty
You: Nber, I'm afraid we can't give legal advice at these office hours, but you have brought up some good points we should look into so that we might add 

some suggestions to the KB article.
Nber Medici: This is not legal advice that I am seeking.
Nber Medici: It is an understanding of what LL wants.
Nber Medici: so that I can plan.
Jon Linden: what LL will ask for is a legally valid will
Jon Linden: is a non-probate will somehow not legally valid?
Jon Linden is not a lawyer
Nber Medici: Jon, I am not a lawyer either.
Nber Medici: but here is the issue.
Nber Medici: Probate is a lengthy process
Nber Medici: and in ther interim LL might take my lands
Nber Medici: and not give them to the person that I want to receive them
Jon Linden: oooh! hm!
Deborah Goldblatt: yes, she is righthere
Jon Linden: that IS ... huh. that is interesting. huh!
Jon Linden: that is definitely a question i'm going to have to follow up on outside these office hours
Nber Medici: great!
Arawn Spitteler: It sounds equivalent to an apartment rental.
Jon Linden: it's a good thing we keep the chatlogs of these office hours
Nber Medici: can you also clarify the other issues as well?
Jon Linden: Nber, the "what happens to my no-transfer items" question?
Nber Medici: yes
Nber Medici: hate to be morbid here... but planning seems to be good :)
Arawn Spitteler: If the heir receives the account, rather than the properties, I should think that would settle the non-transfers
Jon Linden: i imagine -- and this is just me shooting from the hip here -- that if you will your account (let's say Nber Medici) to ... Jeremy over there, 

then basically Jeremy now owns Nber Medici
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you.
Jon Linden: and all the stuff in Nber Medici's inventory
Nber Medici: BUT if it is AS Nber Medici
Nber Medici: then they cannot be transfered to the other avatar
Nber Medici: and it would be the normal thing in RL
Arawn Spitteler: But, N'ber never held the right to transfer her non-trans, and that would stay with the inherited identity
You: Hi Oxigenioh2o. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
Ricken Flow: it would be a lawyer type question but it is my understanding while a will is in probate all the property is in stasis and i am sure that LL has 

backups were the land and inventory can be restores if legally ordered too.
Jon Linden: we do this over chat and not voice, sorry
Nber Medici: for the heir to actually HAVE the stuff
Jon Linden: ricken, that may well be the case
Nber Medici: correct Ricken
Nber Medici: and probate is a lengthy process
Nber Medici: I have a number of sims
Nber Medici: the individual who will inherit those assets needs to be able to control them as if their were the owner
Nber Medici: not just as if they are the EM
Arawn Spitteler: A number of sims would be the kind of asset requiring planning
Nber Medici: that is why I am here
Ricken Flow: me and my sister fought for years over land my parents willed to me
Jon Linden: Nber, if you die and you will your account to someone, that person effectively BECOMES you, i think. i think?
Deborah Goldblatt: yes, that will implement the transfer of your last will nd the ful inheritance in sl
Jon Linden: see, this is why i need to ask a lawyer
Jon Linden: i'm headed upstairs when this office hour is done
Nber Medici: and that is fine Jon... I just think that the entry in the Knowledge base is a good start
Nber Medici: but only a start :)
Jon Linden: which makes for an excellent segue into our wiki-related items
You: Yes!
Nber Medici: Jon, is it possible to get direct feedback on this?
Nber Medici: to me individually?
Jon Linden: Nber, i'll probably just update the relevant article; if YOU want this information, chances are good that others will, too
Edward Griffith: Nber - I don't believe probate is always lengthy. When my father passed - I showed up at the Surrogates court with the death certificate, 

and will and was out with letters Testamentary in about an hour
Nber Medici: Yes, Probate CAN be quick.
Deborah Goldblatt: I do propose and individual informations in direct to Nber
Arawn Spitteler: But, we go in to Probate, wondering if it'll be lengthy
Nber Medici: but... it is NOT a guarentee
Ricken Flow: waiting patiently about the Wiki information
Nber Medici: what i would LIKE to do is go to a lawyer ... make a will for ONLY my SL assets
Nber Medici: and then give that to LL
Rob Linden: Jaszon asked a feiw questions I want to make sure don't get lost: is it ok content, can it get to the Main Page someday, & are we going to 

separate stuff by namespace.
Jaszon Maynard: me too Ricken
You: If you'd like to track changes to the article, you can click the "Subscribe to topic" link on the article page.
Jon Linden: i'm going to follow up on this and update the article when i've got the information
Jon Linden: moving on
Nber Medici: when they get my death certificate... then LL can move on it.
Rob Linden: Jayson staged a bunch of content here:
You: Right, Rob... Are we satisfied with the will issue for now?
Nber Medici: ok finished
Rob Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Proposed_Second_Life_Help_Portal
Arawn Spitteler: Welco,me, of Devian Brat.
EspritAngeLx Petrov: hello arwin..lol
Jaszon Maynard: It's not ALL linked there yet...to see all 6 pages under development, they're at:
You: Heh. As we implied at the start here, we've been mulling over some ideas for one or two new portals on the wiki:
Jaszon Maynard: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Jaszons_sandbox
Jaszon Maynard: New portal, yes!
Nber Medici: Thanks all. hate to ask and run :)
You: One of those portals would be something of a "Knowledge Base Articles in training" portal, where Residents can submit and develop articles that they 

feel are missing from Second Life's existing documentation.
Nber Medici: but I need to go
Jon Linden: no problem, Nber
Jon Linden: the portal Jeremy describes would also be a good place to link existing content in the wiki that could go into the KB
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you.
Jeremy Linden nods.
Jon Linden: deborah, your mic is live
Jaszon Maynard: What about user-editable content that lives in the wiki?
Jon Linden: that may be where the other portal we're thinking of creating comes into play
Jon Linden: i think jeremy's going to describe that one, too
You: The other would be something of a "Resident Advice" portal, where Residents can share their experiences and advice with more freedom to include 

subjective content.
Jaszon Maynard: Yes!
Jaszon Maynard: The user-written guide to a user-created world
Jon Linden: jaszon, we may steal that tagline
You: So for instance, the KB would be a great place to learn, "How do I add someone to my Friends list?", but the Advice portal would be a better forum for, 

"How do I make friends?"
Jon Linden: that's pretty good
Jaszon Maynard: (c) Copyright Jaszon 2008 ;)
Ricken Flow: lol
Jaszon Maynard: I'm thinking even more for the Advice portal...for instancce...
Jon Linden: "the top ten things I found useful when i first started SL"
You: Yes, Jon's spot-on.
Rob Linden: well.....
Jaszon Maynard: some of what I write in my newbie guide is good for newbies to know, not critical of Linden, but yet still may be advice Linden doesn't 

officially want to publish in KB.
You: That's exactly the kind of think we'd want to include :-)
Jaszon Maynard: Good :)
Rob Linden: I think that truly subjective content should go in [[User:Foo Bar/My Subjective Page]]
Jaszon Maynard: Do we have to waiti for the Advice portal before starting to post stuff in the wiki?
Jon Linden: what are we talking about when we say "subjective"?
Rob Linden: pages in the main namespace should follow the https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Editing_Guidelines
Jon Linden: the Advice portal may take a while to form
Jaszon Maynard: Rob, do any of my 6 pages seem too subjective?
Jon Linden: you could always link your content from the portal once it goes up
You: True, Rob, but some of the "practical reality" side of using Second Life, and the ways people find to use our tools are sometimes things that would be 

uncomfortable in the KB.
Jaszon Maynard: Ok Jon.
You: That's the kind of "subjective" I'm referring ot.
You: er, to.
Rob Linden: Jeremy: sure, that's fine. here's the guideline that's important for the main namespace:
WidgetHUD v1.1: Rob Linden has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: We don't seem to have been using namespaces a lot...going forward, do we plan to?
Rob Linden: Articles in the main namespace should be written in the third person. The page history will contain the complete contribution history, so there's 

no need to sign articles. A generally neutral point of view should be adopted, with the caveat that this is for people wanting to help build Second Life, not 

for general complaints about Second Life as a service or of Linden Lab as a company. Criticism of the service which supports feature request or proposal is 

acceptable (e.g. "Here's problem X. Implementing Y will solve X."), but general complaints which only serve to discourage use of Second Life should be taken 

elsewhere.
Ricken Flow: name spaces?
Rob Linden: so....to explain what namespaces are
Jaszon Maynard: Rob, I think my 6 pages comply with that...do you agree?
Rob Linden: the wiki includes the ability to have prefixes on pages, like User:
You: Ah, yes. That was going to be a housekeeping item I want to bring up with the submitted articles- We'd probably be publishing a sort of style guide the 

conforms closely to what Rob just pointed out.
Rob Linden: Jaszon, yes, they do
Arawn Spitteler couldn't find any references to the use of link management anywhere in any article on Sitting
Jaszon Maynard: Link management?
You: Arawn, do you mean object links?
Rob Linden: my concern with namespaces is twofold:
Arawn Spitteler: llSetLinkPrimitiveParams() has been allowed a misfeature, allowing objects to reposition sitting agents
Rob Linden: 1. administrative. it's a minor pain to set up new ones
Jaszon Maynard: In the absence of style guides & help in the SL wiki, I tend to lookup to see what Wikipedia says :P
Rob Linden: 2. drawing clear lines between different areas is hard, and almost every namespace proposal I've heard wants to draw a hard line where a fuzzy 

line would be better
Rob Linden: on a wiki, it's actually BETTER to ahve people bumping into each other and collaborating
Rob Linden: namespaces segregate content a little too much
Jaszon Maynard: That's fine by me.
Jaszon Maynard: I just didn't want to start down 1 path and create lots of stuff the "wrong" way, increasing clean-up work later.
Rob Linden: understood
Simon Kline: i think it's important that the same thing doesn't get replicated twice by two people there when one document done by two people would work out 

a better approach
Rob Linden: Simon: exactly
Jaszon Maynard: And if we were going to have namespaces, then I'd want to be in the discussion about what content belongs in the main "default" namespace.
You: Here's my fundamental concern on that-- the easiest way to not duplicate effort is to know about the first effort-- so the easier it is to find an 

article you're looking for, the less chance it'll be overlooked.
Rob Linden: some more opinions that shouldn't be taken as Linden policy (since Jon and Jeremy, among others may disagree)
WidgetHUD v1.1: Rob Linden has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: Yes, namespaces would incrase the chance of topics being covered by duplicate articleds in separate namespaces.
Jon Linden: a portal of proper design might go a long way toward letting people know what's being worked on
Rob Linden: I think the default assumption in the main namespace shoudl be that the audience is a Resident, and no more than that
Jaszon Maynard: We all seem to be on theh same page here. Though I bet Signpost Marvin would disagree ;)
Arawn Spitteler wonders if naughty lindens get to sort the Jira
You: Agreed.
Jaszon Maynard: I like that too Rob. In any case, we seem to be saying we're not goingi to use namespaces.
Rob Linden: ...and if that means that we need to come up with some sort of template to mark the really nerdy pages, so be it
Edward Griffith: Ok - totlay ignorant here - but how does name spaces impact searching - as I would assume a search would be how articles were most usially 

found??
Rob Linden: Jaszon: correct, I'd really like to avoid it
Jaszon Maynard: There's a bunch of stuff in Help namespace that perhaps should be migrated outu of Help namespace?
You: Hm. Indeed. Good question, Edward.
Rob Linden: Jaszon: yes....I should probably give a history of that
Jaszon Maynard: Acctually Edward, I'm hoping a lot of content can be found via a comprehensive table of contents
Jaszon Maynard: And as far as I know, namespaces being used or not doesn't impair searching
Rob Linden: Edward: namespaces do impact search, because youc an choose which namespace to search
Jon Linden: a comprehensive and friendly TOC that could be viewed from ... well, a portal front page, probably
Jaszon Maynard: Yes Jon!
Jeremy Linden agrees with that notion.
Jaszon Maynard: But if I don't specify a namespace, doesn't my Search give me results from all namespaces?
Edward Griffith: Jaszon - that is how I work when browsing . .. but when looking something up - I use keyword search almost exclusively. . . and assume that 

is also the case in others?
Jaszon Maynard: In any case, I worry about search foro newbies, since newbies don't even know what to ask in some cases.
Rob Linden: Edward: taht's the one downside of not using namespaces to break things up, is that it makes it a little harder to filter otu content. however, I 

think the problems outweigh the benefits
You: Forgive me, but I'm pretty technical and I don't know how to search a specific namespace on a wiki. In fact, I'd never heard the term "namespace" 

applied to a wiki before this conversation. What hope do new Residents have?
Rob Linden: Jeremy: that's another downside of using namespaces
WidgetHUD v1.1: Rob Linden has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: Since we're shying away from namespaces, this problem should go away
Jaszon Maynard: Except for all that content currently in Help namespace
Rob Linden: so, the help namespace is sort of an artifact of the default mediawiki setup
Jaszon Maynard: Edward, take a look at:
Jaszon Maynard: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Proposed_Second_Life_Help_Portal
Rob Linden: and is meant for MediaWiki help, rather than Second Life help
Edward Griffith: ty
Rob Linden: however, many people get confused by that (and I can't blame them)
Simon Kline: i think the wiki edit window links directly to that page?
Simon Kline: well Help:Contents anyhow
Jaszon Maynard: Yeah, that's what I thought Rob...weird having SL help in there
Rob Linden: feel free to move misplaced pages out of Help
Jaszon Maynard: Which window Simon?
Jaszon Maynard: Rob, I'm no wiki expert...it's just a regular move to a new page name?
Simon Kline: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Help:Contents
Rob Linden: Jaszon: correct
Rob Linden: Simon: yeah, Help:Contents, being about using mediawiki, actually makes sense there
Simon Kline nods
Rob Linden: Perhaps just renaming that namespace to WikiHelp would fix the problem
Jaszon Maynard: Yeah...though on SL wiki that Help is sparse...I go to wikipedia for more help, & style guidelines
Deborah Goldblatt: that is as easy as good
Jaszon Maynard: That could work Rob...though if we aren't really using namespaces foro SL content, it hardly seems to matter.
Simon Kline: i found mediawiki.org reasonably helpful
Jaszon Maynard: And leaving it as Help might make it more familiar for experienced wiki users
Time Minder: You have been online for 4 hours.
Jaszon Maynard: Anyone used to wikipedia will assume Help is the place to find help on editing issues
You: Hm. Well, if we make wiki editing a part of Second Life culture, there's no reason not to have wiki editing help on the wiki :-)
Ricken Flow: so you are using wikipedia style guides to use in the sl wiki?
Simon Kline nods
Jaszon Maynard: So what's an ETA on an Advice portal...days, weeks, months?
Jaszon Maynard: Yep Jeremy
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: I have been Ricken.
Jon Linden: we want to make sure we create something that's as useful as possible from the get-go
Simon Kline: another issue with putting extensive wiki newbie help there is how many newbies know about it? but i guess the advice portal links will help 

with that...
You: Hm. We'll be working on a structural layout probably sometime in the next month or so, but this is something we want to make sure we do RIGHT.
Jaszon Maynard: Simon, if all the mentors know there's good help, & newbie help on the wiki, they can hand out the URL right & left.
Jaszon Maynard: So could NCI.
Simon Kline nods
Jon Linden: it could also be mentioned on Orientation Island, perhaps as the newbies leave
You: Not only that, but they could contribute their own experience and make the help resource better for it.
Simon Kline: we generally have a bunch of notcards and landmarks and send ppl to support portal pages at this stage
Ricken Flow: so will the knowledge base have a url listing for furthe help see ........
Deborah Goldblatt: the idea to mention it on the orientation island is great
Deborah Goldblatt: and extremly helpful for newbies
Rob Linden: Jaszon: you can get started in the main namespace now, and we can even have a portal that isn't advertised on the front page yet....
You: Ricken, I already do that in many of my articles-- sometimes there's a lot more good information on the wiki than I can fit into a single article, so I 

link to the wiki.
Jon Linden: the new structure for the KB will also have a folder named "Second Life for Beginners" that will contain a lot of useful information
Rob Linden: and then, as we continue these conversations and zero in on something everyone feels good with, advertise it on the front page
Simon Kline: awesome jon...
Rob Linden: uh oh, lost Jaszon
Jon Linden: one of the articles in that folder could list more helpful external resources
Edward Griffith: As a Mentor - I chime in here - wiki's are not terribly user friendly for new users. . . the layout and organization forcasual users is 

still tremendously confusing . . .
Jon Linden: edward, that's a good point, which is why we want to commit some design time to the portal
Arawn Spitteler: WB Jaszon
Jaszon Maynard: Windlight crashed. Did I miss anything good?
Edward Griffith: Getting to a wiki page using google is about it for them
Simon Kline: indeed it's probably important to have answers to the questions they're asking also
You: I've voiced that concern internally, Edward. If we can make the navigation a bit friendlier, I think it would be a positive move.
Simon Kline: which generally for me have been graphics problems, how do i make money, where do i go now
Rob Linden: Jaszon: you can get started in the main namespace now, and we can even have a portal that isn't advertised on the front page yet....nd then, as 

we continue these conversations and zero in on something everyone feels good with, advertise it on the front page
Simon Kline: and the other classic "how do i detach this car from my head"
Rob Linden: re: navigation. yeah, it can be a problem if you let it get away from you (and we have)
Jaszon Maynard: I can Rob. Once it's in ok shape, perhaps I'd publicize the URL in-world for the wiki table of contents to the new help
Jaszon Maynard: So at least the article gets seene, and content gets added, even before it's an official portal.
Rob Linden: so, is there a place other than these office hours for folks specifically interested in building documentation to talk (e.g. mailing list or 

forum)
Jaszon Maynard: Simon, have you seen:
Jaszon Maynard: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Proposed_Second_Life_Help_Portal
You: Jaszon, but publicize I assume you mean letting NCI and the Mentors etc. know about it?
You: er, -by- publicize, not but :-P
Jaszon Maynard: yes Jeremy. Unless there are other ways too? Post in forums? etc.
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Jaszon Maynard: Rob, perhaps on the wiki?
Arawn Spitteler: Forums aren't yet publically available, to my knowledge
Edward Griffith: Jeremy is the "but" of his own joke
WidgetHUD v1.1: Edward Griffith has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: Forums? What about secondlife.com forums?
Jon Linden: it's possible that once we announce the "KB Jr" portal, you may have a lot of people wanting to build some documentation, jaszon
Jaszon Maynard: Though for this I like the idea of using the wiki discussion pages
You: Hm. I'm not sure what the implications would be if we got the ball rolling down the hill before we were ready for it.
Jaszon Maynard: When would that announcement be Jon?
Rob Linden: I've kept an eye on https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project:Editing_Discussion, and I suppose it'd be helpful if everyone else set a watch for 

that page as well
Rob Linden: maybe that's my first tip for everyone :)
Jon Linden: "when we've got a design ready to go" is my gut feeling
Jaszon Maynard: So Jeremy, does that mean you wouldn't want a lot of users throwing content in the wiki until the Advice portal is set?
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: Jon, so that could be a month or 2?
Jon Linden: it could be
Jon Linden: we have kind of a lot of tasks around here
You: That's my first gut reaction. I would trust NCI and the Mentors, but I wouldn't personally feel comfortable spamming the entire Resident population 

about it just yet.
Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, Rob advised I start posting stuff in the wiki...are you not in favor of that?
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Ricken Flow: is there an idea of who actually uses the SL wiki, who is the audience?
Jon Linden: jaszon, you can certainly start writing your own stuff if you want, just hold off on telling everybody in the whole world about it
Jon Linden: i think that's what we're driving at
Jaszon Maynard: Does that mean, encourage a small set of people to post, but not publicize the articles until the portal is ready?
You: Oh yeah... it's a wiki after all-- the more you can write, the better.
Jaszon Maynard: Jon, ok.
Arawn Spitteler: Find some newbies that could use the articles, and get their feedback
Jaszon Maynard: Ricken, right now I think it's fairly limited audiences...well, not that limited...lots of people script, build, etc.
You: Hrm. If people want to write, they should, as long as we can track it all when we've got a structure ready to go.
Rob Linden: yeah, please edit the wiki, and if there's some publicizing the fact that we're building something (to attract more volunteers) that would be 

cool
You: I just don't want anything to fall through the cracks, as it were.
Jaszon Maynard: Rob, Jon is saying we should limit who we publicize that fact to.
Jon Linden: some publicizing is OK, i'm not hugely in favor of letting everyone and their momma know about it
Jaszon Maynard: Until the portal is ready.
Rob Linden: yeah, I think we're all in the same place
Jon Linden: there is a middle ground somewhere between "just jaszon knows" and "all the Residents everywhere know"
Ricken Flow: this could be a greatl learning opportunity for me. I am going to become wiki fied lol
Jaszon Maynard: Jon, LOL, there is.
Edward Griffith: My ignorance again - but Is the concern on new articles their confirmation to style and proper menu placement?
Jon Linden: that's part of it, certainly
Jon Linden: some process would be good to get down as well
Jaszon Maynard: Something else...the wiki isn't too speedy it seems to me...if we flood it with readers & editors, will it slow down a lot?
Jon Linden: avoiding the duplication of effort is going to be a concern
Jaszon Maynard: Edward, I would think too having a bit of structure in place so that articles go in an ordered fashion would be good.
Jon Linden: people, this has been fascinating, but i really have to go, i am sorry about this
Jaszon Maynard: Bye Jon.
Jon Linden: please continue talking for as long as you have time, though
Rob Linden: Jaszon: yeah, it's slow. we're looking at our options for fixing that, though I think it's a lot better than six months ago. don't worry about 

flooding it in that regard though
Arawn Spitteler: Duplication of Effort should be trained into Competition
You: Hm. I think that would be an interesting indicator, Jaszon. I imagine if there's increased demand for the wiki, we'll upgrade it.
Becky Pippen: bye Jon!
Jaszon Maynard: Edward, some structure is what I've been trying to work on in:
Jaszon Maynard: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Proposed_Second_Life_Help_Portal
Edward Griffith: ty Jon
Jon Linden: we'll see you next week!
Rob Linden should run, too
Becky Pippen: Bye Rob!
Ricken Flow: see you next week
Jaszon Maynard: Bye Rob.
Simon Kline: thanks jon, rob Jeremy!
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You: Thanks for coming, Rob!
Edward Griffith: Y Jaszon - I was looking at that earlier
You: We've been in dire need of your Wiki experience!
Deborah Goldblatt: cu by Rob
Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, whose?
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
Simon Kline: i've got to get going too, got to catch jeska
Simon Kline: take care all
Becky Pippen: Bye Simon
Jaszon Maynard: Bye Simon
Jaszon Maynard: I'm a bit of a documentation expert, but no wiki expert.
You: Heh. Rob's one of our wiki gurus. Jon and I don't (currently) do much with it, which makes it difficult for us to answer deep questions about it.
Arawn Spitteler hasn't often caught Jeska at her office hour
Edward Griffith: Time for me to mount and ride as well - ta all - and thanks
Jaszon Maynard: Yeah, Rob knows a lot. Took me a bit to track down the wiki expert ;)
Jaszon Maynard: Bye Edward
Jaszon Maynard: I'm an expert on being a newbie ;)
Arawn Spitteler: Are you familiar with Notecards?
Jaszon Maynard: Arawn, who you asking?
You: Heh. Being an expert at being a newbie is a great state of being for writing documentation.
Becky Pippen: :-)
Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, yep! :)
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: Also being a demanding newbie with lots of opinions about things ;)
Arawn Spitteler: Oh, on Notecards, the one inventory item I can't add, is the Calling Card.
Jaszon Maynard: You should hear what I think of the iPhone's design ;)
You: Yeah. That's in the KB article on adding attachments to notecards, Arawn.
You: Oh? I'm rather impressed with the iPhone.
Jaszon Maynard: Or the design of many web pages
Arawn Spitteler: I didn't see Calling Cards mentioned specifically, but you're not the one to Jira about adding a person reference capacity
Jaszon Maynard: The iPhone's cool...but it needs cut & paste! Voice dial! Voice memos! And why not make it thicker with a user-removable battery! But yeah, 

many great things about it.
You: Oy webpages. That's true enough. You may have heard one of my concerns about using the wiki as a primary source of help for newbies is that wikis are 

scary to navigate.
You: Our wiki front page right now scares me!
Jaszon Maynard: Hmmm...wikipedia is pretty popular
Jaszon Maynard: It is a great way to centralize community input
Jaszon Maynard: And certainly SL is a huge community
Jaszon Maynard: As wikis go, the front page is fine...I'd be worried if the Advice portal was as scary as most of the current portals.
You: Currently our wiki has a lot of non-encyclopedia type entries, though. We'd need to clean that up a lot before it became SLpedia.
Jaszon Maynard: Existing portals are a little complex. Creation portal not scary, but disorganized...but newbiesi not heading there first anyway.
You: At Wikipedia, I can just use the default search to find just about anything easily. In the SL wiki, I wind up finding lots of open source and debugging 

info, rather than infomation on how to use SL.
Jaszon Maynard: Well...you can be more like wikihow & others...your wiki doesn't have to be precisely encyclopedic. Just not totally subjective either.
Jaszon Maynard: Ahhh...yes Jeremy
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Jaszon Maynard: That's a design question to think about.
Jaszon Maynard: It almost argues foro namespaces...or an excellentn table of contents
Jaszon Maynard: If there were a SLHelp namespace and all searches default to only searching there, that would be one solution.
Arawn Spitteler: Radio Buttons, of knowledge level?
Jaszon Maynard: But so far we've been talking about not using namespaces.
You: Indeed. I like the table of contents idea largely because I find it impossible to browse a wiki. For the most part, you have to know what you're looking 

for, and that it exists.
Jaszon Maynard: True encyclopedias, in the wikipedia sense, aren't good on the "how", or advice, on topics.
Jaszon Maynard: Wikipedia isi somewhat browse-able.
Deborah Goldblatt: you would need a lot of backgroundlinks
Jaszon Maynard: I like the idea of a table of contents to help overwhelmed newbies
Jaszon Maynard: A reasonably experienced SL person will figure out how to find what they want in the wiki, or talk to someone who can pointn them to theh 

right article.
You: Heh. That's sort of what I mean. One advantage I think the KB has at the moment is its browsable directory structure.
Jaszon Maynard: But newbies need a good overview.
Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, yeah...but the KB still not too newbie friendly.
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you.
Jaszon Maynard: Deborah, have you seen:
Jaszon Maynard: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Proposed_Second_Life_Help_Portal
You: Indeed. We're fixing that, though. :-)
You: One of the folders (the top one, I think) will be "Second Life for Beginners"
Jaszon Maynard: Yes!
Jaszon Maynard: You can even steal what I wrote ;)
Deborah Goldblatt: was it one of the pages of tonight
You: It will include all the articles that have the information you wanted from the HELP! notecard.
Deborah Goldblatt: what about to name it Se<ond Life vor Newbies
Jaszon Maynard: Deb, that page was mentioned earlier too.
Deborah Goldblatt: ok
Deborah Goldblatt: they are all open
Deborah Goldblatt: and I will read them
Jaszon Maynard: Thoght that HELP card is out date, no?
Jaszon Maynard: My wiki articles I'm trying to structure to give newbies the min. info they need just to get going.
Jaszon Maynard: That HELP card is a lot for newbies to digest, and a bit disorganized.
You: Parts of it. The KB articles are more up-to-date, though. I've been going through them myself and making sure of that.
You: (I'm up to the first subfolder of Controls & Getting Around, started at Content Creation a couple weeks ago)
Jaszon Maynard: Cool. have you read my newbie into article?
Jaszon Maynard: I keep refining it.
Jaszon Maynard: I meant: "newbie intro article"
You: I'm slowly browsing through.
You: Ah, this looks similar to something I'm going to be working on next quarter.
Jaszon Maynard: Perhaps I went into the future & stole it from you ;)
Arawn Spitteler: Harmonic Convergence
Deborah Goldblatt: the m orphogentical field makes it possible
You: I want to do a short (under 20 pages) PDF document that covers a lot of basic tasks Residents engage in. Sort of a printed quick reference & 

orientation, or quick start guide.
You: Something that can get people on their feet, and able to explore on their own.
Deborah Goldblatt: that is so helpful
Deborah Goldblatt: a quicks tart guide
Jaszon Maynard: That would be good. Lots of people prefer stuff they can print. And some systems will have hard tim running browser & Second Life at same 

time.
Jaszon Maynard: That's pretty much my same aim with my intro + table of contents.
Jaszon Maynard: Then, when they have question, hopefully they're *advanced* questions :P
You: Or, even better, they'll know where to look for answers online.
Deborah Goldblatt: :-)
Jaszon Maynard: Yes. On https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Jaszons_sandbox check out my "additional_help" page
Jaszon Maynard: It's very brief
You: Yes, that's the sort of thing I'd include near the end of my primer.
Deborah Goldblatt: but, when I rememer my newbietime
Deborah Goldblatt: I could nothandle all thisnames in it
Jaszon Maynard: Are there other lively help groups besides Mentors & NCI?
You: It's been great talking to you all, but I've got to run. Thanks for coming!
Jaszon Maynard: Deb, names? You mean terms? Right near the top of my table of contents is a dictionary (not created yet though).
Jaszon Maynard: Thanks jeremy, bye!
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Becky Pippen: Bye Jeremy!
WidgetHUD v1.1: Becky Pippen has pinged you.
Arawn Spitteler: There is a discussion of Mentor Franchises.