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Jon Linden: hello everyone! Nber Medici: Hello Jon Jon Linden: just waiting for my ottoman to rez Jon Linden: ah, there we are Nber Medici: and Jeremy WidgetHUD v1.1: Nber Medici has pinged you. Becky Pippen: Hi Jeremy and Jon WidgetHUD v1.1: Becky Pippen has pinged you. Ricken Flow: Hello Jon, Jeremy WidgetHUD v1.1: Ricken Flow has pinged you. You: Hello all! Welcome to Documentation Office Hours :-) Nber Medici: mmmm is Jon going to be crabby? Jon Linden: heheheh You: He just needs someone to take him out of his shell. Nber Medici: HEHEHEH Jon Linden: oh plffhahahaha Ricken Flow: lol Jon Linden: folks, we have some interesting ideas to bounce off you this week Becky Pippen wiggles with anticipation Jon Linden: but before i do that, does anybody have anything they want to bring up first? Nber Medici raises hand Nber Medici: hehe Jon Linden: please do! Nber Medici: I have a question regarding "Beyond the Veil? Jon Linden: go for it Nber Medici: well it sounds as if the Lindens want a formal will in order to transfer "ownership" of things Jon Linden: that is correct Nber Medici: which is OK I guess.... but You: Hello Edward, welcome to Documentation Office Hours. Feel free to have a seat! Becky Pippen gave you Davie Zinner's email. Nber Medici: are you going to require that the wills have been thro probate? Nber Medici: depending on the estate in RL that can take a LOOOONG time Edward Griffith: ty - giving the slow worms a chance to draw their pixel alotment Jon Linden: i should preface by saying i'm not a lawyer, so i'm not actually familiar with the term "probate" Nber Medici: probate means that a court has adjudicated the will Jon Linden: is that something all courts have to do? Jon Linden: this might be a question i could answer for you by just running upstairs quickly Nber Medici: again that depends on the complexity of the RL estate and the specific legal jurisdiction You: Heh! Nber Medici: here is my real question Nber Medici: or actually my suggestion Nber Medici: I could have a "will" written Nber Medici: one that is JUST for my SL property Nber Medici: this is a will that I would never intend to go to probate Nber Medici: but would be given to LL to satisfy their requirement Nber Medici: then I have another will that is for my RL goods that actually goes to probate Deborah Goldblatt: hello all Nber Medici: another subsidiary issue is the following Nber Medici: what happens to MY no transfer items Nber Medici: are they transferred to my legal heir? Jon Linden: hello Deborah! welcome to Documentation Office Hours! you've arrived in the middle of a long question, hang on Nber Medici: heheheh Jon Linden: that's an interesting question, Nber Nber Medici: I'm sorry if this is too much for this venue Deborah Goldblatt: yes, ok, ty Arawn Spitteler: KB might want an entry for Probate Jon Linden: no, that's something i bet we'd want to put in the Death FAQ Nber Medici: heheh ok another question then Nber Medici: LOL Nber Medici: I've been thinking on this Jon Linden: i don't know if this is a dumb question, but would you WANT your no-transfer items to go to your legal heir? Nber Medici: of course You: My understanding of the will was that the heir gets your account, rather than just your avatar's things. Arawn Spitteler: SL Death would simply mean that an account is not on line, not that a person is subject of a meat-side probate. Jon Linden: so if the heir gets your account, s/he pretty much gets your things anyway then, huh Nber Medici: mmm I would expect that my heir does get everything Nber Medici: no Arawn this is RL death that we are talking about here Arawn Spitteler: WEll, no alt of your account, to my knowledge, could get your non-transferable things, and an heir would be using an acount as your voice. Nber Medici: so I own SL land... and therefore have to pay tier to LL Nber Medici: of course not Arawn Nber Medici: we are not talking about alt accounts Nber Medici: we are talking about me dying in RL Arawn Spitteler: If an heir receives your account, his own account would see it as an alt Nber Medici: and wanting someone in SL and RL to inherit my property, lands, and posessions Nber Medici: why should that be the case? Arawn Spitteler: How would SL even see your Meat-Side demise? Nber Medici: it should be that an heir gets my property Nber Medici: because I give them a will Deborah Goldblatt: she is right Deborah Goldblatt: it is a last will and an act of legacy Nber Medici: You may not transfer your Account to any third party without the prior written consent of Linden Lab; notwithstanding the foregoing, Linden Lab will not unreasonably withhold consent to the transfer of an Account in good standing by operation of valid written will to a single natural person, provided that proper notice and documentation are delivered as requested by Linden Lab. Jon Linden: right Deborah Goldblatt: and this may be has to be transporteed alsointo SL certainly Deborah Goldblatt: but this needs a special documentation Jon Linden: what needs special documentation? Arawn Spitteler: Could this also be done by living will? Jon Linden: maybe? Deborah Goldblatt: the last will the transfer to sl Jon Linden: that's another lawyer question Deborah Goldblatt: and in sl Nber Medici: totally different thing Ricken Flow: hmmmmm is their a form in the knowledge base for the SL will? Deborah Goldblatt: yes it is Nber Medici: a living will is not the same at all Nber Medici: no Ricken there is not Deborah Goldblatt: the thing is Nber Medici: and this is a real RL will Jon Linden: there is no form in the KB for a will of any sort You: There is no such thing as an official Second Life will... It would be a real-life will that includes your Second Life account. Deborah Goldblatt: that if we pay taxes and the gov is entering in SL in any form with taxes and else Jon Linden: what Jeremy said WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you. Nber Medici: correct Deborah Goldblatt: wo this is a part Deborah Goldblatt: yes Deborah Goldblatt: so itis Deborah Goldblatt: Jeremy WidgetHUD v1.1: Deborah Goldblatt has pinged you. Jon Linden: hello Rob! Edward Griffith: Nber - usual disclaimers aboLinden couldn't posibly do that ( a form) as it would lead to leagal nighmares Deborah Goldblatt: yes, what jEREMY SAID WidgetHUD v1.1: Deborah Goldblatt has pinged you. Rob Linden: hi folks....Jon and Jeremy, hope you don't mind my crashing WidgetHUD v1.1: Rob Linden has pinged you. Jaszon Maynard: My question is about what content is ok for the SL wiki. I have 6 pages of stuff I'm working on in my user space at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Jaszons_sandbox I want to make sure it's considered ok content for the wiki. Becky Pippen: Hi Rob! You: Glad to have you, Rob! Edward Griffith: but a will for something uncontested can be very simple Jon Linden: actually, Jaszon, that's probably why rob's here Jaszon Maynard: Prob so ;) Jon Linden: we had an interesting meeting the other day about wiki content You: Lucky for us Rob showed up just now :-) Ricken Flow: hmmmmm how would that transfer to group owned land? Edward Griffith: ok - I'm going to lay out my q too - so you folks can start a punch list Edward Griffith: My comment also relates to the Veil KB article. I posted a couple of comments on the blog - but I see a lot of people commenting and focusing still on the issue of trying to ID someone threatening Suicide. This underscores the need for expansion of the KB as that is the wrong way to approach the situation Jon Linden: that's another question to which i have no ready answer, Ricken Nber Medici: Ricken that is another interesting associated issue Rob Linden: Jaszon and I have been discussing the wiki here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project:Editing_Discussion#Creating_a_Help_portal Jon Linden: Edward, the idea is that we want Residents to be able to help each other, but we can't give RL information out Deborah Goldblatt: HIGHLY RECOMMANDED DATASECURITY Edward Griffith: I understand - and agree. You: Jaszon's question does segue into one of the topics we were going to talk to you about today, as well... once we get through the concerns you all brought with you :-) Jon Linden: indeed Jaszon Maynard: I guess I have 3 questions: is it ok content, can it get to the Main Page someday, & are we going to separate stuff by namespace. Edward Griffith: But you SHOULD give out info on how to handle the situation Nber Medici: mmmmm Ricken Flow: once i get a new wireless network card for my pc i am going to start looking at the wiki projects Edward Griffith: and that DOES NOT involve trying to ID the person Jon Linden: edward, i added some links to helpful suicide resources to the KB article Nber Medici: How about the legal issues that I have raised? Edward Griffith: It involves listening and then trying to get them to seek trained help Jon Linden: that's basically what the article states Edward Griffith: That info and links to it you can provide Ricken Flow: there are several groups in SL that have licensed counselors and some specialize in suicide prevention Jon Linden: edward, that information is now in the article Edward Griffith: great ty You: Nber, I'm afraid we can't give legal advice at these office hours, but you have brought up some good points we should look into so that we might add some suggestions to the KB article. Nber Medici: This is not legal advice that I am seeking. Nber Medici: It is an understanding of what LL wants. Nber Medici: so that I can plan. Jon Linden: what LL will ask for is a legally valid will Jon Linden: is a non-probate will somehow not legally valid? Jon Linden is not a lawyer Nber Medici: Jon, I am not a lawyer either. Nber Medici: but here is the issue. Nber Medici: Probate is a lengthy process Nber Medici: and in ther interim LL might take my lands Nber Medici: and not give them to the person that I want to receive them Jon Linden: oooh! hm! Deborah Goldblatt: yes, she is righthere Jon Linden: that IS ... huh. that is interesting. huh! Jon Linden: that is definitely a question i'm going to have to follow up on outside these office hours Nber Medici: great! Arawn Spitteler: It sounds equivalent to an apartment rental. Jon Linden: it's a good thing we keep the chatlogs of these office hours Nber Medici: can you also clarify the other issues as well? Jon Linden: Nber, the "what happens to my no-transfer items" question? Nber Medici: yes Nber Medici: hate to be morbid here... but planning seems to be good :) Arawn Spitteler: If the heir receives the account, rather than the properties, I should think that would settle the non-transfers Jon Linden: i imagine -- and this is just me shooting from the hip here -- that if you will your account (let's say Nber Medici) to ... Jeremy over there, then basically Jeremy now owns Nber Medici WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you. Jon Linden: and all the stuff in Nber Medici's inventory Nber Medici: BUT if it is AS Nber Medici Nber Medici: then they cannot be transfered to the other avatar Nber Medici: and it would be the normal thing in RL Arawn Spitteler: But, N'ber never held the right to transfer her non-trans, and that would stay with the inherited identity You: Hi Oxigenioh2o. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours. Ricken Flow: it would be a lawyer type question but it is my understanding while a will is in probate all the property is in stasis and i am sure that LL has backups were the land and inventory can be restores if legally ordered too. Jon Linden: we do this over chat and not voice, sorry Nber Medici: for the heir to actually HAVE the stuff Jon Linden: ricken, that may well be the case Nber Medici: correct Ricken Nber Medici: and probate is a lengthy process Nber Medici: I have a number of sims Nber Medici: the individual who will inherit those assets needs to be able to control them as if their were the owner Nber Medici: not just as if they are the EM Arawn Spitteler: A number of sims would be the kind of asset requiring planning Nber Medici: that is why I am here Ricken Flow: me and my sister fought for years over land my parents willed to me Jon Linden: Nber, if you die and you will your account to someone, that person effectively BECOMES you, i think. i think? Deborah Goldblatt: yes, that will implement the transfer of your last will nd the ful inheritance in sl Jon Linden: see, this is why i need to ask a lawyer Jon Linden: i'm headed upstairs when this office hour is done Nber Medici: and that is fine Jon... I just think that the entry in the Knowledge base is a good start Nber Medici: but only a start :) Jon Linden: which makes for an excellent segue into our wiki-related items You: Yes! Nber Medici: Jon, is it possible to get direct feedback on this? Nber Medici: to me individually? Jon Linden: Nber, i'll probably just update the relevant article; if YOU want this information, chances are good that others will, too Edward Griffith: Nber - I don't believe probate is always lengthy. When my father passed - I showed up at the Surrogates court with the death certificate, and will and was out with letters Testamentary in about an hour Nber Medici: Yes, Probate CAN be quick. Deborah Goldblatt: I do propose and individual informations in direct to Nber Arawn Spitteler: But, we go in to Probate, wondering if it'll be lengthy Nber Medici: but... it is NOT a guarentee Ricken Flow: waiting patiently about the Wiki information Nber Medici: what i would LIKE to do is go to a lawyer ... make a will for ONLY my SL assets Nber Medici: and then give that to LL Rob Linden: Jaszon asked a feiw questions I want to make sure don't get lost: is it ok content, can it get to the Main Page someday, & are we going to separate stuff by namespace. Jaszon Maynard: me too Ricken You: If you'd like to track changes to the article, you can click the "Subscribe to topic" link on the article page. Jon Linden: i'm going to follow up on this and update the article when i've got the information Jon Linden: moving on Nber Medici: when they get my death certificate... then LL can move on it. Rob Linden: Jayson staged a bunch of content here: You: Right, Rob... Are we satisfied with the will issue for now? Nber Medici: ok finished Rob Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Proposed_Second_Life_Help_Portal Arawn Spitteler: Welco,me, of Devian Brat. EspritAngeLx Petrov: hello arwin..lol Jaszon Maynard: It's not ALL linked there yet...to see all 6 pages under development, they're at: You: Heh. As we implied at the start here, we've been mulling over some ideas for one or two new portals on the wiki: Jaszon Maynard: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Jaszons_sandbox Jaszon Maynard: New portal, yes! Nber Medici: Thanks all. hate to ask and run :) You: One of those portals would be something of a "Knowledge Base Articles in training" portal, where Residents can submit and develop articles that they feel are missing from Second Life's existing documentation. Nber Medici: but I need to go Jon Linden: no problem, Nber Jon Linden: the portal Jeremy describes would also be a good place to link existing content in the wiki that could go into the KB WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you. Jeremy Linden nods. Jon Linden: deborah, your mic is live Jaszon Maynard: What about user-editable content that lives in the wiki? Jon Linden: that may be where the other portal we're thinking of creating comes into play Jon Linden: i think jeremy's going to describe that one, too You: The other would be something of a "Resident Advice" portal, where Residents can share their experiences and advice with more freedom to include subjective content. Jaszon Maynard: Yes! Jaszon Maynard: The user-written guide to a user-created world Jon Linden: jaszon, we may steal that tagline You: So for instance, the KB would be a great place to learn, "How do I add someone to my Friends list?", but the Advice portal would be a better forum for, "How do I make friends?" Jon Linden: that's pretty good Jaszon Maynard: (c) Copyright Jaszon 2008 ;) Ricken Flow: lol Jaszon Maynard: I'm thinking even more for the Advice portal...for instancce... Jon Linden: "the top ten things I found useful when i first started SL" You: Yes, Jon's spot-on. Rob Linden: well..... Jaszon Maynard: some of what I write in my newbie guide is good for newbies to know, not critical of Linden, but yet still may be advice Linden doesn't officially want to publish in KB. You: That's exactly the kind of think we'd want to include :-) Jaszon Maynard: Good :) Rob Linden: I think that truly subjective content should go in [[User:Foo Bar/My Subjective Page]] Jaszon Maynard: Do we have to waiti for the Advice portal before starting to post stuff in the wiki? Jon Linden: what are we talking about when we say "subjective"? Rob Linden: pages in the main namespace should follow the https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Editing_Guidelines Jon Linden: the Advice portal may take a while to form Jaszon Maynard: Rob, do any of my 6 pages seem too subjective? Jon Linden: you could always link your content from the portal once it goes up You: True, Rob, but some of the "practical reality" side of using Second Life, and the ways people find to use our tools are sometimes things that would be uncomfortable in the KB. Jaszon Maynard: Ok Jon. You: That's the kind of "subjective" I'm referring ot. You: er, to. Rob Linden: Jeremy: sure, that's fine. here's the guideline that's important for the main namespace: WidgetHUD v1.1: Rob Linden has pinged you. Jaszon Maynard: We don't seem to have been using namespaces a lot...going forward, do we plan to? Rob Linden: Articles in the main namespace should be written in the third person. The page history will contain the complete contribution history, so there's no need to sign articles. A generally neutral point of view should be adopted, with the caveat that this is for people wanting to help build Second Life, not for general complaints about Second Life as a service or of Linden Lab as a company. Criticism of the service which supports feature request or proposal is acceptable (e.g. "Here's problem X. Implementing Y will solve X."), but general complaints which only serve to discourage use of Second Life should be taken elsewhere. Ricken Flow: name spaces? Rob Linden: so....to explain what namespaces are Jaszon Maynard: Rob, I think my 6 pages comply with that...do you agree? Rob Linden: the wiki includes the ability to have prefixes on pages, like User: You: Ah, yes. That was going to be a housekeeping item I want to bring up with the submitted articles- We'd probably be publishing a sort of style guide the conforms closely to what Rob just pointed out. Rob Linden: Jaszon, yes, they do Arawn Spitteler couldn't find any references to the use of link management anywhere in any article on Sitting Jaszon Maynard: Link management? You: Arawn, do you mean object links? Rob Linden: my concern with namespaces is twofold: Arawn Spitteler: llSetLinkPrimitiveParams() has been allowed a misfeature, allowing objects to reposition sitting agents Rob Linden: 1. administrative. it's a minor pain to set up new ones Jaszon Maynard: In the absence of style guides & help in the SL wiki, I tend to lookup to see what Wikipedia says :P Rob Linden: 2. drawing clear lines between different areas is hard, and almost every namespace proposal I've heard wants to draw a hard line where a fuzzy line would be better Rob Linden: on a wiki, it's actually BETTER to ahve people bumping into each other and collaborating Rob Linden: namespaces segregate content a little too much Jaszon Maynard: That's fine by me. Jaszon Maynard: I just didn't want to start down 1 path and create lots of stuff the "wrong" way, increasing clean-up work later. Rob Linden: understood Simon Kline: i think it's important that the same thing doesn't get replicated twice by two people there when one document done by two people would work out a better approach Rob Linden: Simon: exactly Jaszon Maynard: And if we were going to have namespaces, then I'd want to be in the discussion about what content belongs in the main "default" namespace. You: Here's my fundamental concern on that-- the easiest way to not duplicate effort is to know about the first effort-- so the easier it is to find an article you're looking for, the less chance it'll be overlooked. Rob Linden: some more opinions that shouldn't be taken as Linden policy (since Jon and Jeremy, among others may disagree) WidgetHUD v1.1: Rob Linden has pinged you. Jaszon Maynard: Yes, namespaces would incrase the chance of topics being covered by duplicate articleds in separate namespaces. Jon Linden: a portal of proper design might go a long way toward letting people know what's being worked on Rob Linden: I think the default assumption in the main namespace shoudl be that the audience is a Resident, and no more than that Jaszon Maynard: We all seem to be on theh same page here. Though I bet Signpost Marvin would disagree ;) Arawn Spitteler wonders if naughty lindens get to sort the Jira You: Agreed. Jaszon Maynard: I like that too Rob. In any case, we seem to be saying we're not goingi to use namespaces. Rob Linden: ...and if that means that we need to come up with some sort of template to mark the really nerdy pages, so be it Edward Griffith: Ok - totlay ignorant here - but how does name spaces impact searching - as I would assume a search would be how articles were most usially found?? Rob Linden: Jaszon: correct, I'd really like to avoid it Jaszon Maynard: There's a bunch of stuff in Help namespace that perhaps should be migrated outu of Help namespace? You: Hm. Indeed. Good question, Edward. Rob Linden: Jaszon: yes....I should probably give a history of that Jaszon Maynard: Acctually Edward, I'm hoping a lot of content can be found via a comprehensive table of contents Jaszon Maynard: And as far as I know, namespaces being used or not doesn't impair searching Rob Linden: Edward: namespaces do impact search, because youc an choose which namespace to search Jon Linden: a comprehensive and friendly TOC that could be viewed from ... well, a portal front page, probably Jaszon Maynard: Yes Jon! Jeremy Linden agrees with that notion. Jaszon Maynard: But if I don't specify a namespace, doesn't my Search give me results from all namespaces? Edward Griffith: Jaszon - that is how I work when browsing . .. but when looking something up - I use keyword search almost exclusively. . . and assume that is also the case in others? Jaszon Maynard: In any case, I worry about search foro newbies, since newbies don't even know what to ask in some cases. Rob Linden: Edward: taht's the one downside of not using namespaces to break things up, is that it makes it a little harder to filter otu content. however, I think the problems outweigh the benefits You: Forgive me, but I'm pretty technical and I don't know how to search a specific namespace on a wiki. In fact, I'd never heard the term "namespace" applied to a wiki before this conversation. What hope do new Residents have? Rob Linden: Jeremy: that's another downside of using namespaces WidgetHUD v1.1: Rob Linden has pinged you. Jaszon Maynard: Since we're shying away from namespaces, this problem should go away Jaszon Maynard: Except for all that content currently in Help namespace Rob Linden: so, the help namespace is sort of an artifact of the default mediawiki setup Jaszon Maynard: Edward, take a look at: Jaszon Maynard: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Proposed_Second_Life_Help_Portal Rob Linden: and is meant for MediaWiki help, rather than Second Life help Edward Griffith: ty Rob Linden: however, many people get confused by that (and I can't blame them) Simon Kline: i think the wiki edit window links directly to that page? Simon Kline: well Help:Contents anyhow Jaszon Maynard: Yeah, that's what I thought Rob...weird having SL help in there Rob Linden: feel free to move misplaced pages out of Help Jaszon Maynard: Which window Simon? Jaszon Maynard: Rob, I'm no wiki expert...it's just a regular move to a new page name? Simon Kline: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Help:Contents Rob Linden: Jaszon: correct Rob Linden: Simon: yeah, Help:Contents, being about using mediawiki, actually makes sense there Simon Kline nods Rob Linden: Perhaps just renaming that namespace to WikiHelp would fix the problem Jaszon Maynard: Yeah...though on SL wiki that Help is sparse...I go to wikipedia for more help, & style guidelines Deborah Goldblatt: that is as easy as good Jaszon Maynard: That could work Rob...though if we aren't really using namespaces foro SL content, it hardly seems to matter. Simon Kline: i found mediawiki.org reasonably helpful Jaszon Maynard: And leaving it as Help might make it more familiar for experienced wiki users Time Minder: You have been online for 4 hours. Jaszon Maynard: Anyone used to wikipedia will assume Help is the place to find help on editing issues You: Hm. Well, if we make wiki editing a part of Second Life culture, there's no reason not to have wiki editing help on the wiki :-) Ricken Flow: so you are using wikipedia style guides to use in the sl wiki? Simon Kline nods Jaszon Maynard: So what's an ETA on an Advice portal...days, weeks, months? Jaszon Maynard: Yep Jeremy WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you. Jaszon Maynard: I have been Ricken. Jon Linden: we want to make sure we create something that's as useful as possible from the get-go Simon Kline: another issue with putting extensive wiki newbie help there is how many newbies know about it? but i guess the advice portal links will help with that... You: Hm. We'll be working on a structural layout probably sometime in the next month or so, but this is something we want to make sure we do RIGHT. Jaszon Maynard: Simon, if all the mentors know there's good help, & newbie help on the wiki, they can hand out the URL right & left. Jaszon Maynard: So could NCI. Simon Kline nods Jon Linden: it could also be mentioned on Orientation Island, perhaps as the newbies leave You: Not only that, but they could contribute their own experience and make the help resource better for it. Simon Kline: we generally have a bunch of notcards and landmarks and send ppl to support portal pages at this stage Ricken Flow: so will the knowledge base have a url listing for furthe help see ........ Deborah Goldblatt: the idea to mention it on the orientation island is great Deborah Goldblatt: and extremly helpful for newbies Rob Linden: Jaszon: you can get started in the main namespace now, and we can even have a portal that isn't advertised on the front page yet.... You: Ricken, I already do that in many of my articles-- sometimes there's a lot more good information on the wiki than I can fit into a single article, so I link to the wiki. Jon Linden: the new structure for the KB will also have a folder named "Second Life for Beginners" that will contain a lot of useful information Rob Linden: and then, as we continue these conversations and zero in on something everyone feels good with, advertise it on the front page Simon Kline: awesome jon... Rob Linden: uh oh, lost Jaszon Jon Linden: one of the articles in that folder could list more helpful external resources Edward Griffith: As a Mentor - I chime in here - wiki's are not terribly user friendly for new users. . . the layout and organization forcasual users is still tremendously confusing . . . Jon Linden: edward, that's a good point, which is why we want to commit some design time to the portal Arawn Spitteler: WB Jaszon Jaszon Maynard: Windlight crashed. Did I miss anything good? Edward Griffith: Getting to a wiki page using google is about it for them Simon Kline: indeed it's probably important to have answers to the questions they're asking also You: I've voiced that concern internally, Edward. If we can make the navigation a bit friendlier, I think it would be a positive move. Simon Kline: which generally for me have been graphics problems, how do i make money, where do i go now Rob Linden: Jaszon: you can get started in the main namespace now, and we can even have a portal that isn't advertised on the front page yet....nd then, as we continue these conversations and zero in on something everyone feels good with, advertise it on the front page Simon Kline: and the other classic "how do i detach this car from my head" Rob Linden: re: navigation. yeah, it can be a problem if you let it get away from you (and we have) Jaszon Maynard: I can Rob. Once it's in ok shape, perhaps I'd publicize the URL in-world for the wiki table of contents to the new help Jaszon Maynard: So at least the article gets seene, and content gets added, even before it's an official portal. Rob Linden: so, is there a place other than these office hours for folks specifically interested in building documentation to talk (e.g. mailing list or forum) Jaszon Maynard: Simon, have you seen: Jaszon Maynard: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Proposed_Second_Life_Help_Portal You: Jaszon, but publicize I assume you mean letting NCI and the Mentors etc. know about it? You: er, -by- publicize, not but :-P Jaszon Maynard: yes Jeremy. Unless there are other ways too? Post in forums? etc. WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you. Jaszon Maynard: Rob, perhaps on the wiki? Arawn Spitteler: Forums aren't yet publically available, to my knowledge Edward Griffith: Jeremy is the "but" of his own joke WidgetHUD v1.1: Edward Griffith has pinged you. Jaszon Maynard: Forums? What about secondlife.com forums? Jon Linden: it's possible that once we announce the "KB Jr" portal, you may have a lot of people wanting to build some documentation, jaszon Jaszon Maynard: Though for this I like the idea of using the wiki discussion pages You: Hm. I'm not sure what the implications would be if we got the ball rolling down the hill before we were ready for it. Jaszon Maynard: When would that announcement be Jon? Rob Linden: I've kept an eye on https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project:Editing_Discussion, and I suppose it'd be helpful if everyone else set a watch for that page as well Rob Linden: maybe that's my first tip for everyone :) Jon Linden: "when we've got a design ready to go" is my gut feeling Jaszon Maynard: So Jeremy, does that mean you wouldn't want a lot of users throwing content in the wiki until the Advice portal is set? WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you. Jaszon Maynard: Jon, so that could be a month or 2? Jon Linden: it could be Jon Linden: we have kind of a lot of tasks around here You: That's my first gut reaction. I would trust NCI and the Mentors, but I wouldn't personally feel comfortable spamming the entire Resident population about it just yet. Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, Rob advised I start posting stuff in the wiki...are you not in favor of that? WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you. Ricken Flow: is there an idea of who actually uses the SL wiki, who is the audience? Jon Linden: jaszon, you can certainly start writing your own stuff if you want, just hold off on telling everybody in the whole world about it Jon Linden: i think that's what we're driving at Jaszon Maynard: Does that mean, encourage a small set of people to post, but not publicize the articles until the portal is ready? You: Oh yeah... it's a wiki after all-- the more you can write, the better. Jaszon Maynard: Jon, ok. Arawn Spitteler: Find some newbies that could use the articles, and get their feedback Jaszon Maynard: Ricken, right now I think it's fairly limited audiences...well, not that limited...lots of people script, build, etc. You: Hrm. If people want to write, they should, as long as we can track it all when we've got a structure ready to go. Rob Linden: yeah, please edit the wiki, and if there's some publicizing the fact that we're building something (to attract more volunteers) that would be cool You: I just don't want anything to fall through the cracks, as it were. Jaszon Maynard: Rob, Jon is saying we should limit who we publicize that fact to. Jon Linden: some publicizing is OK, i'm not hugely in favor of letting everyone and their momma know about it Jaszon Maynard: Until the portal is ready. Rob Linden: yeah, I think we're all in the same place Jon Linden: there is a middle ground somewhere between "just jaszon knows" and "all the Residents everywhere know" Ricken Flow: this could be a greatl learning opportunity for me. I am going to become wiki fied lol Jaszon Maynard: Jon, LOL, there is. Edward Griffith: My ignorance again - but Is the concern on new articles their confirmation to style and proper menu placement? Jon Linden: that's part of it, certainly Jon Linden: some process would be good to get down as well Jaszon Maynard: Something else...the wiki isn't too speedy it seems to me...if we flood it with readers & editors, will it slow down a lot? Jon Linden: avoiding the duplication of effort is going to be a concern Jaszon Maynard: Edward, I would think too having a bit of structure in place so that articles go in an ordered fashion would be good. Jon Linden: people, this has been fascinating, but i really have to go, i am sorry about this Jaszon Maynard: Bye Jon. Jon Linden: please continue talking for as long as you have time, though Rob Linden: Jaszon: yeah, it's slow. we're looking at our options for fixing that, though I think it's a lot better than six months ago. don't worry about flooding it in that regard though Arawn Spitteler: Duplication of Effort should be trained into Competition You: Hm. I think that would be an interesting indicator, Jaszon. I imagine if there's increased demand for the wiki, we'll upgrade it. Becky Pippen: bye Jon! Jaszon Maynard: Edward, some structure is what I've been trying to work on in: Jaszon Maynard: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Proposed_Second_Life_Help_Portal Edward Griffith: ty Jon Jon Linden: we'll see you next week! Rob Linden should run, too Becky Pippen: Bye Rob! Ricken Flow: see you next week Jaszon Maynard: Bye Rob. Simon Kline: thanks jon, rob Jeremy! WidgetHUD v1.1: Simon Kline has pinged you. You: Thanks for coming, Rob! Edward Griffith: Y Jaszon - I was looking at that earlier You: We've been in dire need of your Wiki experience! Deborah Goldblatt: cu by Rob Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, whose? WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you. Simon Kline: i've got to get going too, got to catch jeska Simon Kline: take care all Becky Pippen: Bye Simon Jaszon Maynard: Bye Simon Jaszon Maynard: I'm a bit of a documentation expert, but no wiki expert. You: Heh. Rob's one of our wiki gurus. Jon and I don't (currently) do much with it, which makes it difficult for us to answer deep questions about it. Arawn Spitteler hasn't often caught Jeska at her office hour Edward Griffith: Time for me to mount and ride as well - ta all - and thanks Jaszon Maynard: Yeah, Rob knows a lot. Took me a bit to track down the wiki expert ;) Jaszon Maynard: Bye Edward Jaszon Maynard: I'm an expert on being a newbie ;) Arawn Spitteler: Are you familiar with Notecards? Jaszon Maynard: Arawn, who you asking? You: Heh. Being an expert at being a newbie is a great state of being for writing documentation. Becky Pippen: :-) Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, yep! :) WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you. Jaszon Maynard: Also being a demanding newbie with lots of opinions about things ;) Arawn Spitteler: Oh, on Notecards, the one inventory item I can't add, is the Calling Card. Jaszon Maynard: You should hear what I think of the iPhone's design ;) You: Yeah. That's in the KB article on adding attachments to notecards, Arawn. You: Oh? I'm rather impressed with the iPhone. Jaszon Maynard: Or the design of many web pages Arawn Spitteler: I didn't see Calling Cards mentioned specifically, but you're not the one to Jira about adding a person reference capacity Jaszon Maynard: The iPhone's cool...but it needs cut & paste! Voice dial! Voice memos! And why not make it thicker with a user-removable battery! But yeah, many great things about it. You: Oy webpages. That's true enough. You may have heard one of my concerns about using the wiki as a primary source of help for newbies is that wikis are scary to navigate. You: Our wiki front page right now scares me! Jaszon Maynard: Hmmm...wikipedia is pretty popular Jaszon Maynard: It is a great way to centralize community input Jaszon Maynard: And certainly SL is a huge community Jaszon Maynard: As wikis go, the front page is fine...I'd be worried if the Advice portal was as scary as most of the current portals. You: Currently our wiki has a lot of non-encyclopedia type entries, though. We'd need to clean that up a lot before it became SLpedia. Jaszon Maynard: Existing portals are a little complex. Creation portal not scary, but disorganized...but newbiesi not heading there first anyway. You: At Wikipedia, I can just use the default search to find just about anything easily. In the SL wiki, I wind up finding lots of open source and debugging info, rather than infomation on how to use SL. Jaszon Maynard: Well...you can be more like wikihow & others...your wiki doesn't have to be precisely encyclopedic. Just not totally subjective either. Jaszon Maynard: Ahhh...yes Jeremy WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you. Jaszon Maynard: That's a design question to think about. Jaszon Maynard: It almost argues foro namespaces...or an excellentn table of contents Jaszon Maynard: If there were a SLHelp namespace and all searches default to only searching there, that would be one solution. Arawn Spitteler: Radio Buttons, of knowledge level? Jaszon Maynard: But so far we've been talking about not using namespaces. You: Indeed. I like the table of contents idea largely because I find it impossible to browse a wiki. For the most part, you have to know what you're looking for, and that it exists. Jaszon Maynard: True encyclopedias, in the wikipedia sense, aren't good on the "how", or advice, on topics. Jaszon Maynard: Wikipedia isi somewhat browse-able. Deborah Goldblatt: you would need a lot of backgroundlinks Jaszon Maynard: I like the idea of a table of contents to help overwhelmed newbies Jaszon Maynard: A reasonably experienced SL person will figure out how to find what they want in the wiki, or talk to someone who can pointn them to theh right article. You: Heh. That's sort of what I mean. One advantage I think the KB has at the moment is its browsable directory structure. Jaszon Maynard: But newbies need a good overview. Jaszon Maynard: Jeremy, yeah...but the KB still not too newbie friendly. WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you. Jaszon Maynard: Deborah, have you seen: Jaszon Maynard: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Proposed_Second_Life_Help_Portal You: Indeed. We're fixing that, though. :-) You: One of the folders (the top one, I think) will be "Second Life for Beginners" Jaszon Maynard: Yes! Jaszon Maynard: You can even steal what I wrote ;) Deborah Goldblatt: was it one of the pages of tonight You: It will include all the articles that have the information you wanted from the HELP! notecard. Deborah Goldblatt: what about to name it Se<ond Life vor Newbies Jaszon Maynard: Deb, that page was mentioned earlier too. Deborah Goldblatt: ok Deborah Goldblatt: they are all open Deborah Goldblatt: and I will read them Jaszon Maynard: Thoght that HELP card is out date, no? Jaszon Maynard: My wiki articles I'm trying to structure to give newbies the min. info they need just to get going. Jaszon Maynard: That HELP card is a lot for newbies to digest, and a bit disorganized. You: Parts of it. The KB articles are more up-to-date, though. I've been going through them myself and making sure of that. You: (I'm up to the first subfolder of Controls & Getting Around, started at Content Creation a couple weeks ago) Jaszon Maynard: Cool. have you read my newbie into article? Jaszon Maynard: I keep refining it. Jaszon Maynard: I meant: "newbie intro article" You: I'm slowly browsing through. You: Ah, this looks similar to something I'm going to be working on next quarter. Jaszon Maynard: Perhaps I went into the future & stole it from you ;) Arawn Spitteler: Harmonic Convergence Deborah Goldblatt: the m orphogentical field makes it possible You: I want to do a short (under 20 pages) PDF document that covers a lot of basic tasks Residents engage in. Sort of a printed quick reference & orientation, or quick start guide. You: Something that can get people on their feet, and able to explore on their own. Deborah Goldblatt: that is so helpful Deborah Goldblatt: a quicks tart guide Jaszon Maynard: That would be good. Lots of people prefer stuff they can print. And some systems will have hard tim running browser & Second Life at same time. Jaszon Maynard: That's pretty much my same aim with my intro + table of contents. Jaszon Maynard: Then, when they have question, hopefully they're *advanced* questions :P You: Or, even better, they'll know where to look for answers online. Deborah Goldblatt: :-) Jaszon Maynard: Yes. On https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jaszon_Maynard/Jaszons_sandbox check out my "additional_help" page Jaszon Maynard: It's very brief You: Yes, that's the sort of thing I'd include near the end of my primer. Deborah Goldblatt: but, when I rememer my newbietime Deborah Goldblatt: I could nothandle all thisnames in it Jaszon Maynard: Are there other lively help groups besides Mentors & NCI? You: It's been great talking to you all, but I've got to run. Thanks for coming! Jaszon Maynard: Deb, names? You mean terms? Right near the top of my table of contents is a dictionary (not created yet though). Jaszon Maynard: Thanks jeremy, bye! WidgetHUD v1.1: Jaszon Maynard has pinged you. Becky Pippen: Bye Jeremy! WidgetHUD v1.1: Becky Pippen has pinged you. Arawn Spitteler: There is a discussion of Mentor Franchises.