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[2008/04/11 14:05] Patsy Linden is Online [2008/04/11 14:05] Gaia Rossini: Hello!! Taryn [2008/04/11 14:05] Taryn London: Hi Gaia :) [2008/04/11 14:05] Gaia Rossini: and Hello!! Jeremy:-) [2008/04/11 14:05] Sidewinder Linden is Online [2008/04/11 14:05] You: Hey folks! Sorry I'm a bit late. Login problems just like everyone else :-) [2008/04/11 14:05] Strife Onizuka: i'm glad to see they moved the "Release Keys" button, that was driving me nuts in previous releases [2008/04/11 14:06] You: Jon should be along as soon as he can get inworld... he sends his regards :-) [2008/04/11 14:06] Gaia Rossini: :-) [2008/04/11 14:06] You: I'm glad to see such a turnout here today! I trust you're all here to discuss the exciting and compelling Knowledge Base? [2008/04/11 14:06] Jon Linden is Online [2008/04/11 14:07] Taryn London: I'm here for snacks. [2008/04/11 14:07] Teeple Linden is Online [2008/04/11 14:07] Gaia Rossini: :-) [2008/04/11 14:07] Jacer Shepherd: Does "F1 Help Documentation" fall under this same category ? [2008/04/11 14:07] Strife Onizuka: i can on the off chance of a discussion about wiki content [2008/04/11 14:07] Amber Linden is Online [2008/04/11 14:07] You: In a way, Jacer. F1 help is somewhat in limbo, but our goal is to make F1 help link to the Knowledge Base. [2008/04/11 14:07] Arawn Spitteler: Jon has logged in [2008/04/11 14:08] Strife Onizuka: and there he is [2008/04/11 14:08] You: Right now it goes to the Support Portal, which is one hop away from the KB! [2008/04/11 14:08] Jon Linden: made it! [2008/04/11 14:08] Jon Linden: quite a crowd today [2008/04/11 14:08] Gaia Rossini: Hello!! Jon [2008/04/11 14:08] Sabina Stenvaag: well--i jsut recently (like 5 min ago) wondered what " OpenGL Vertex Buffer Objects" means--KB didn't really explain it--so i guess it's more a common/regular computer term than an SL term righ!? [2008/04/11 14:08] Jacer Shepherd: F1= three tickets, 9 months, all closed with no comment, and the F1 Help error still exists. [2008/04/11 14:09] Jon Linden: what's the F1 Help error being discussed? [2008/04/11 14:09] Promenade Pro: The Edge Exclusive Promenade Pro version 1.07 activated. Type /99help for Help. [2008/04/11 14:09] Jacer Shepherd: On the movie page, there is a simple, but Frustrating typo. [2008/04/11 14:09] Patsy Linden is Offline [2008/04/11 14:09] Jacer Shepherd: Cntl-Alt-1 is what the doc says, but it should be Cntl-Alt-F1 [2008/04/11 14:10] Strife Onizuka: The Vertex Buffer Object is a different way of loading vertex data into the driver [2008/04/11 14:10] Sabina Stenvaag is quite while y'all talk about some f1 concern [2008/04/11 14:10] Becky Pippen: That was a recent change, Jacer [2008/04/11 14:10] Nitram Foden: hiya all :) [2008/04/11 14:10] Jacer Shepherd: I can't tell you how many hundred times I have personally helped ppl with that. [2008/04/11 14:10] You: Vertex Buffer Objects is more of a graphics term, yes. We do our best to describe stuff like that without getting to technical; really technical stuff (like the technical explanation for sculpties) tends to find its way to the wiki. [2008/04/11 14:10] Jon Linden: Movie page? [2008/04/11 14:10] Strife Onizuka: (some hardware takes positive advanage of it, others don't) [2008/04/11 14:11] Dee Linden is Online [2008/04/11 14:11] Jon Linden: jacer, can you be more exact about where you're seeing the typo? [2008/04/11 14:11] Jacer Shepherd: i KNOW this isn't the forum to get into specifics, but every correction I've ever sent via a Ticket has been closed with no action, and for the most part, the docs are still wrong [2008/04/11 14:11] Patch Linden is Offline [2008/04/11 14:11] Jacer Shepherd: http://secondlife.com/app/help/guides/movies.php [2008/04/11 14:12] You: Jacer, have you been sending your corrections via "KnowledgeBase Suggestions"? [2008/04/11 14:12] Jacer Shepherd: second to last line [2008/04/11 14:12] Jon Linden: ah, the old F1 help [2008/04/11 14:12] Jacer Shepherd: I have sent via KB ticket, and "other" category [2008/04/11 14:12] Isthiscrazyorwhat Pudles: Is this the graduation temple? [2008/04/11 14:13] Jacer Shepherd: Guy Linden even "co-signed" one for me, that was closed with no action [2008/04/11 14:13] Teeple Linden is Offline [2008/04/11 14:13] You: Ah. We actually actively monitor the Knowledge Base Suggestion tickets, but we may or may not be notified of tickets in other categories. [2008/04/11 14:13] Jacer Shepherd: my KB ticket was closed with no action in the last 2 weeks [2008/04/11 14:13] You: Isthiscrazyorwhat, I think you may need to look South :-) [2008/04/11 14:14] Bao Linden is Offline [2008/04/11 14:14] Isthiscrazyorwhat Pudles: I would love to but I don't see a compass anywhere? [2008/04/11 14:14] Jacer Shepherd: So , to keep it general, what IS the channel for correcting true errors in the docs ? [2008/04/11 14:14] Becky Pippen: Ctrl-Shift-M is your compass :-) [2008/04/11 14:14] Jon Linden: it should be the Knowledge Base Suggestions ticket [2008/04/11 14:14] Jon Linden: the problem is that 99% of them are noise [2008/04/11 14:14] Strife Onizuka: (if you don't have the minimap turned on, press ctrl+shift+m ) [2008/04/11 14:14] You: Right. There is a specific category of ticket for submitting tentative changes to the KB. [2008/04/11 14:15] Jon Linden: true suggestions have the unfortunate possible tendency to get lost in the shuffle [2008/04/11 14:15] Isthiscrazyorwhat Pudles: ok thanks I found it [2008/04/11 14:15] Strife Onizuka: *cough* any thoughts about using Jira for this task? [2008/04/11 14:15] You: Yes, in fact! [2008/04/11 14:15] Jon Linden: i'm actually curious how you're getting to the old F1 Help in the first place! [2008/04/11 14:16] Jacer Shepherd: there are twenty some occurrenaces of this very item in the jira already [2008/04/11 14:16] You: We've had some talk here in the past about setting up a PJIRA component under WEB, but we haven't yet had time to plan or execute it. We'd need to standardize on a single channel, or else we run the risk of losing a lot of suggestions. [2008/04/11 14:16] WidgetHUD v1.1: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB, [2008/04/11 14:16] WidgetHUD v1.1: PROJECT DOES NOT EXIST - Second Life Issues [2008/04/11 14:16] You: Er, whoops. Guess there's still a bug in that :-) [2008/04/11 14:16] Jacer Shepherd: but since it is "only documentation" it is set to the lowest priority, and yet, where do you turn when you need to know something ?? [2008/04/11 14:17] Jon Linden: we're busy enough with current projects that any doc-related items in the PJIRA haven't gotten looked at yet [2008/04/11 14:17] Arawn Spitteler remembers the good old days, of Software Documentation: If all else fails, read the instructions. [2008/04/11 14:17] Jon Linden: we're actually in the middle of getting the entire Knowledge Base reviewed from a technical accuracy standpoint [2008/04/11 14:17] You: (major love to the Support team for that!) [2008/04/11 14:18] Jon Linden: as for the F1 help, seriously, how are you getting to it? [2008/04/11 14:18] Jacer Shepherd: I just did it, and with this very latest viewer, it no longer takes you to the old page. [2008/04/11 14:18] You: Jon, there have been various tools for accessing F1 help. It's still around, but the front page redirects to the Support Portal now. [2008/04/11 14:18] Jacer Shepherd: But with previous versions, that is where its at [2008/04/11 14:19] Jon Linden: i see [2008/04/11 14:19] Jacer Shepherd: There are links in KB articles, all over the place in Torley's stuff, that still take you to http://secondlife.com/app/help/guides/movies.php [2008/04/11 14:19] You: Non-English viewers also still use F1 help in some capacity, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not an expert on that subject, though. [2008/04/11 14:19] You: Ah. [2008/04/11 14:20] Jon Linden: I'm trying to think of a place in the KB that would reference that page [2008/04/11 14:20] Jacer Shepherd: it was in a tips & tricks article. [2008/04/11 14:20] You: Before Jon and I were hired, Torley did a lot of documentation here. Believe it or not, F1 help predates me as a Linden, so I unfortunately have very little experience with it. [2008/04/11 14:20] Strife Onizuka: F1 Help predates me as a user! [2008/04/11 14:20] You: Are the sources you're reading more than a year old? [2008/04/11 14:21] Jacer Shepherd: well, like i said, my main issue is with submitting bonafide tickes, and having them closed without comment. [2008/04/11 14:21] Arawn Spitteler is hanging desperately to the 184.108.40.206 Viewer: F1 now takes me here... http://secondlife.com/support/ [2008/04/11 14:21] Jon Linden: that's where it should take you [2008/04/11 14:21] Jacer Shepherd: Well, in Januany, with that browser, you still got the "old F1" when you pressed F1 [2008/04/11 14:22] You: Hm, yes. The bottom line here is that the old F1 Help system was deprecated on English language viewers over a year ago. [2008/04/11 14:22] Jacer Shepherd: that was maybe the 1.18 ? [2008/04/11 14:22] Jon Linden: jacer, we did enact a mass clearing-out of Knowledge Base Suggestions tickets a couple of weeks ago; the message included with the closing action indicated that legitimate suggestions should be re-submitted [2008/04/11 14:22] Jacer Shepherd: Which it was, and was reclosed again [2008/04/11 14:23] Jon Linden: ah, i see what you're getting at [2008/04/11 14:23] Strife Onizuka: why not move the entire feature suggestion aspect of the KB to jira so that people can collaberate and vote on issues, then you just need to do like the Bug Triage occasionally to figure out whats important and whats not [2008/04/11 14:23] Jacer Shepherd: Like is said, the problem, from my standpoint, is generic in that I alone have reported 20 errors in tickets, [2008/04/11 14:23] Strife Onizuka: (but i understand if you want to keep it private) [2008/04/11 14:24] Jon Linden: jacer, are you reporting errors in F1 Help, or the KB? i'm still looking for a place in the actual Knowledge Base that references any F1 Help material [2008/04/11 14:24] You: I actually agree with that, Strife. We've just been buried under a ton of doc-related issues for about the past six months :-) [2008/04/11 14:24] Arawn Spitteler: Strife has a point, is this some hitch in Jira Admin? [2008/04/11 14:24] Jacer Shepherd: every ticket has been closed without comment (other than form letters) [2008/04/11 14:25] Jacer Shepherd: Most of my comments have been on KB articles [2008/04/11 14:25] Arawn Spitteler: I know Jira is being looked at, in terms of making it understand able to those who don't speak fluent Linden [2008/04/11 14:25] Jon Linden: most KB Suggestions tickets are closed even when they contain good suggestions -- we have an internal JIRA that we use to track KB tasks [2008/04/11 14:25] Jon Linden: the general process is as follows: [2008/04/11 14:25] Jon Linden: if a suggestions seems good, we make a subtask in our internal JIRA to fix or create a new article [2008/04/11 14:25] Jon Linden: the ticket itself is closed [2008/04/11 14:26] Jon Linden: this seems like the thing to do because there's no telling when we'll be able to get around to actually making the proposed edit [2008/04/11 14:26] Arawn Spitteler: Sounds like a cold service [2008/04/11 14:26] Jon Linden: there are kind of a lot of them [2008/04/11 14:26] Strife Onizuka: with the public jira there is a feild so that people know when an issue has been imported into the internal jira [2008/04/11 14:27] Jacer Shepherd: It seems to me that user documentation, when corrected, would save a bunch of tickets to support, or the spiralling of the # of issues in jira [2008/04/11 14:27] Jon Linden: i think we may have discussed using the PJIRA in past office hours; the general feeling i get is that people seem to have enough trouble putting together a coherent KB suggestion that trying to make them navigate JIRA would be too much effort for most people to bother with [2008/04/11 14:27] Strife Onizuka: ok [2008/04/11 14:27] Strife Onizuka drops the topic [2008/04/11 14:28] Jon Linden: the new public wiki portal we're working on designing should be a much easier way to suggest (and create) new KB content [2008/04/11 14:28] Simon Kline: jira is indeed a beast.... one u gotta just play with to get to know hehe [2008/04/11 14:28] Jon Linden: it's got a bit of a learning curve, true [2008/04/11 14:28] Jeremy Linden differs in opinion, but as Jon said, we've got something new in the works. [2008/04/11 14:28] Jacer Shepherd has capitalized enough time here [2008/04/11 14:29] Arawn Spitteler: The Courtesy of Support is something else, that needsa feedback [2008/04/11 14:29] You: Heh. Direct support isn't something I can say much about, but I would hope they're courteous! [2008/04/11 14:29] Jon Linden: well, here's a question, then -- would you rather a KB Suggestion ticket you submitted remain open until the edit has gone into the KB? keeping in mind it may take weeks or even months to get around to? [2008/04/11 14:30] Jon Linden: i cannot overemphasize the amount of writing and editing we're already doing [2008/04/11 14:30] Jacer Shepherd: I guess my whole problem is the philosophy of having it takes months to correct a 1-character typo [2008/04/11 14:30] Strife Onizuka: (the power of jira is that you are getting acess to linden time with jira, linden time is valuable so suggestions should be well formulated) [2008/04/11 14:31] Jacer Shepherd: you have Thousands of knowledgeable ppl who write good suggestions, but they never get implements. [2008/04/11 14:31] Jon Linden: the typo you're talking about right now is in the F1 Help, which was deprecated a while ago [2008/04/11 14:31] Strife Onizuka: i spend a lot of time editing wiki content and there is a lot i don't edit, i know exactly how much work you guys do; it's enough to drive someone mad [2008/04/11 14:31] You: It may just be a matter of prioritization. However, if this one-character typo is in the old F1 Help, I'll say again that it will not get fixed. We have not updated F1 Help in over a year, because it is no longer in use. [2008/04/11 14:31] Jacer Shepherd: Well, I disagree with that, but still, I have 19 other examples that have never been acted upon [2008/04/11 14:31] Jon Linden: also, keep in mind that these "good suggestions" you're talking about represent literally .1% of the volume of Knowledge Base Suggestions tickets [2008/04/11 14:31] Simon Kline: indeed strife... reproducable problems are the the best and easiest for them [2008/04/11 14:32] You: Strife, I'm not sure if you heard about our upcoming plans for the wiki, but as someone who does a lot of editing, I'd like to hear your reaction... [2008/04/11 14:33] Jon Linden: between the new triage process we've enacted for KB Suggestions tickets and the technical review we're spearheading, hopefully a lot of "factual accuracy" problems within the existing KB articles will be eliminated [2008/04/11 14:33] Jon Linden: I'd actually also be highly interested in what Strife has to say about wiki edits [2008/04/11 14:33] Strife Onizuka: if your plan is to merge the KB with the wiki is some way shape or form that is fine with me [2008/04/11 14:33] Jon Linden: not exactly [2008/04/11 14:33] Jon Linden: there's a new wiki portal in design that i call "Knowledge Development" [2008/04/11 14:34] Jon Linden: it will be a place for Residents to do any of three things: [2008/04/11 14:34] Jon Linden: 1. link to existing content in the wiki that may belong in the KB [2008/04/11 14:34] Cierra Demina: ohh am i entruding [2008/04/11 14:34] Jon Linden: 2. suggest new content for the k.b. [2008/04/11 14:34] You: Feel free to stay, Cierra! This is Documentation Office Hours. [2008/04/11 14:34] Strife Onizuka: sounds good so far [2008/04/11 14:34] Jon Linden: 3. create and work on their own new content for the KB [2008/04/11 14:35] Jon Linden: as far as category 3 goes, the idea is that we'd eventually import good Resident-created articles into the KB [2008/04/11 14:35] Strife Onizuka: do you have some script to convert the wiki syntax to KB syntax? [2008/04/11 14:35] You: ("good" being defined by a style guide we will provide) [2008/04/11 14:35] Jon Linden: jeremy knows where one exists [2008/04/11 14:35] WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you. [2008/04/11 14:35] You: Oh? Oh, yeah. A mediawiki-to-HTML converter. [2008/04/11 14:36] Jon Linden: i'm curious to know how much traffic you guys think such a portal would get [2008/04/11 14:36] Cierra Demina: <<<(omg..i always wanted to meet Jerely) [2008/04/11 14:36] Jon Linden: also, jeremy's got another public wiki portal with a different mission [2008/04/11 14:36] Strife Onizuka nods "given the plan to keep it seperate from the wiki, it's the right way of doing things" [2008/04/11 14:36] You: Oh, yes. The Resident Advice Portal, which will be home for Linden and Resident written articles that are a little too objective to go in the KB. [2008/04/11 14:37] You: So, for instance, "How do I start a business?", which goes beyond "How do I set an item for sale?" [2008/04/11 14:37] You: It's meant to provide advice that goes somewhat beyond the mere controls for Second Life and delves into how to actually live here :-) [2008/04/11 14:38] Yousuf Essel: hi [2008/04/11 14:38] You: Hello Yousuf. Welcome to Documentation office Hours! [2008/04/11 14:38] Jon Linden: i'm curious (and I bet Jeremy is too) to know how much use those portals will see [2008/04/11 14:38] WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you. [2008/04/11 14:38] Arawn Spitteler: Welcome, Yousuf [2008/04/11 14:38] Jon Linden: any guesses? dire predictions? [2008/04/11 14:38] Cierra Demina: my friend wants to start a business but doesnt know how [2008/04/11 14:38] Strife Onizuka: The wiki is already being used for Resident Advice, there is much content already available that coule be put into that portal [2008/04/11 14:38] Yousuf Essel: where am I ? [2008/04/11 14:38] Cierra Demina: where to begin [2008/04/11 14:38] Jon Linden: exactly, Strife [2008/04/11 14:39] Strife Onizuka: i mean that is already on the wiki [2008/04/11 14:39] Jon Linden: right [2008/04/11 14:39] Jon Linden: the Resident Advice portal can be a place to link that content [2008/04/11 14:39] Strife Onizuka: sounds like a plan [2008/04/11 14:39] Jacer Shepherd: and the "how do i "... that goes beyond just the keystrokes gets a lot of time in the forums, so there should be a breadth of knowledge to mine. [2008/04/11 14:39] Arawn Spitteler asides to Yousuf: This is Documentation Office Hour; the place to discuss the instructions for SL [2008/04/11 14:39] You: For many months, we battled with the idea of using the wiki for delivering information... it's a great medium for developing content, but in its current form, it's just too hard to find a lot of it. We're hoping these new portals will help to focus a lot of the information in the wiki into something the average Resident can use. [2008/04/11 14:39] Jon Linden: ooh! actually, that brings up an idea someone in the Lab had about the forums and Resident Advice [2008/04/11 14:39] Yousuf Essel: Woooow [2008/04/11 14:40] Yousuf Essel: nice [2008/04/11 14:40] Jon Linden: you can rate posts in the forums, right? [2008/04/11 14:40] Yousuf Essel: so I'm with experts ;) [2008/04/11 14:40] Cierra Demina: i am so lost [2008/04/11 14:40] Jacer Shepherd: I don't recall rating posts. do you Strife? [2008/04/11 14:40] Cierra Demina: sorry to bother you kind people... [2008/04/11 14:40] Arawn Spitteler: Experts, Lindens, and the rest of us. [2008/04/11 14:40] Strife Onizuka: The also problem with using the wiki as a KB is that people will post questions (in the articles) in the wrong places [2008/04/11 14:40] Cierra Demina: i better go [2008/04/11 14:41] You: Cierra, we're discussing future developments of the Knowlege Base.... places people can go to learn about Second Life. [2008/04/11 14:41] Jon Linden: are you looking for a particular location? [2008/04/11 14:41] Jon Linden: strife, that was also a concern [2008/04/11 14:41] Cierra Demina: not really..i saw there was ameeting and came to one [2008/04/11 14:41] You: Strife, do you find that happens a lot now? [2008/04/11 14:42] Cierra Demina: i am not here muich and know nothing except what i learn from jeremy [2008/04/11 14:42] WidgetHUD v1.1: Cierra Demina has pinged you. [2008/04/11 14:42] You: Heh. I'm glad I'm so influential! [2008/04/11 14:42] Gaia Rossini: :-) [2008/04/11 14:42] Cierra Demina: more than you know Jeremy [2008/04/11 14:42] WidgetHUD v1.1: Cierra Demina has pinged you. [2008/04/11 14:42] You: Please, don't hesitate to ask questions. It's why we're here :-) [2008/04/11 14:42] Jon Linden: true [2008/04/11 14:43] Strife Onizuka: I beleive a percentage of viewers ask questions, and as the numbers of unanswered questions increases unhappyness increases, as the number of questions increase it becomes harder for people to find duplicate questions with answers so they repost [2008/04/11 14:44] You: This is on the wiki? [2008/04/11 14:44] Jon Linden: are you talking about forums, or inline wiki edits? [2008/04/11 14:44] Strife Onizuka: everywhere [2008/04/11 14:44] Cierra Demina: what is a wiki? [2008/04/11 14:44] Jon Linden: hahahaha [2008/04/11 14:44] Cierra Demina: sorry [2008/04/11 14:44] Jon Linden: sorry, cierra, not laughing at you [2008/04/11 14:44] Jacer Shepherd: Strife speaks the truth as far as finding stuff in the Forums, but Forums also has a very weak search capability [2008/04/11 14:44] Jon Linden: strife's answer was amusing [2008/04/11 14:44] Strife Onizuka: (a wiki is a website that anyone can edit) [2008/04/11 14:44] WidgetHUD v1.1: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEBSITE [2008/04/11 14:44] WidgetHUD v1.1: PROJECT DOES NOT EXIST - Second Life Issues [2008/04/11 14:44] Jon Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Main_Page [2008/04/11 14:44] You: Cierra, a wiki is an online document that anyone can edit. The theory is that if enough people look at it and add what they know, it'll come out right. [2008/04/11 14:45] Jeremy Linden shuts down his linker. [2008/04/11 14:45] Jon Linden: it's the theory behind wikipedia [2008/04/11 14:45] Jon Linden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page [2008/04/11 14:45] Strife Onizuka: it works as long as there is some moderation to steer things [2008/04/11 14:45] Strife Onizuka: you only see the flood of questions effect when things are really bad [2008/04/11 14:45] Jacer Shepherd: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Main_Page [2008/04/11 14:45] Jon Linden: moderation is also something we're wondering about as far as these proposed new portals go, but that ties into "how much traffic will these portals see," which is an unknown [2008/04/11 14:46] Simon Kline nods... i know in it's current format the wiki or fourums have no way of doing this.. but when somene types in a title for their question or article it would be cool for it to say... these articles may interest you... <insert list of articles already done with simmilar subject matter here> [2008/04/11 14:46] You: YES. [2008/04/11 14:46] You: I've been pushing for a "related articles" feature in all of our mediums. [2008/04/11 14:46] Jacer Shepherd: That would be kewl [2008/04/11 14:46] Taryn London: Gold sarts for Sime :) [2008/04/11 14:47] You: It may not be easy to automate, but I try to at least manually include related links in many of the KB articles I write. [2008/04/11 14:47] Jon Linden: the right-hand column in the Knowledge Base displays "related articles," but they're sometimes a little weird [2008/04/11 14:47] Strife Onizuka: on all LSL documentation there is a section for related articles [2008/04/11 14:48] Cierra Demina smiles and waves to all...but i am lost. i will return when i have learned more....thanks to you all [2008/04/11 14:48] Simon Kline: good observation strife... *heads over to see how it's done* [2008/04/11 14:48] Gaia Rossini: See You soon [2008/04/11 14:48] You: thanks for coming, Cierra. [2008/04/11 14:49] You: Yes, I do like our LSL portal, though I have to admit I'm not sure who works on it. We have a very scattered group currently working with different parts of the wiki. [2008/04/11 14:49] Arawn Spitteler: Will that be a difference between KB and Wiki? That Wiki are rife with Hyer-Text Links? [2008/04/11 14:49] Strife Onizuka: ^^; i work on it, me and some other people [2008/04/11 14:50] Jon Linden: there are plenty of links in KB articles to other articles, arawn [2008/04/11 14:50] Strife Onizuka: the templates have a slight tendancy to scare people off [2008/04/11 14:50] Jon Linden: it is easier to link to other material when you're working on a wiki, though [2008/04/11 14:50] Mari Moonbeam: I can never find anything in the knowledge base [2008/04/11 14:50] You: In a perfect world, the KB would be full of hyperlinks as well. Until recently, the internal tool for linking between articles was TERRIBLE, but it's a bit better now. [2008/04/11 14:50] Jon Linden: mari, what sort of information are you looking for? [2008/04/11 14:51] Jacer Shepherd: Those Who Are Afraid of a Template Should Not Fill It In .... [2008/04/11 14:51] Mari Moonbeam: when I ge messages or hear a term-lucky I am in mac users so they help [2008/04/11 14:51] You: If only it were that easy, Jacer. The "old way" involved directly editing the resulting HTML file. :-) [2008/04/11 14:51] Jon Linden: what kind of messages or terms? [2008/04/11 14:51] Mari Moonbeam: but for genl SL help--it is werid how genl search yields nothing and then you google search [2008/04/11 14:51] Jacer Shepherd: I agree that the tendancy to more hyperlinks in KB has made finding answers easiers [2008/04/11 14:52] Strife Onizuka: article crosslinking is something i worry about with lsl content, i really wish we had more topic articles instead of refrence articles [2008/04/11 14:53] Mari Moonbeam: like -example-haven't tried it, but yesterday Pastrami meeting had loads of good stuff-will it be able to be exracted easily-- [2008/04/11 14:53] You: I think Pastrami posted a response to the meeting on the Blog... one moment : [2008/04/11 14:53] Jon Linden: pastrami's marathon 4-hour office hour session? i haven't had a chance to read the transcript yet [2008/04/11 14:54] You: http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/04/11/1191-office-hours-4-hours-of-fun/ [2008/04/11 14:54] Strife Onizuka: that must have been nuts [2008/04/11 14:54] Becky Pippen: yup [2008/04/11 14:54] Jon Linden: i wouldn't doubt that there are useful items in there that could be turned into KB material [2008/04/11 14:54] Simon Kline: lol it was heh [2008/04/11 14:54] Simon Kline: but useful for ppl having trouble i think [2008/04/11 14:54] Arawn Spitteler: One thing came out, the BE-v is better than the SL Viewers [2008/04/11 14:55] Sabina Stenvaag: sry--but what is BE-v [2008/04/11 14:55] Jon Linden: the trouble with "people having trouble"-type items is that eventually, bugs get fixed, which means having their workarounds living in the KB becomes silly-lookin' [2008/04/11 14:55] Strife Onizuka nods [2008/04/11 14:56] You: Occasionally, though, "people having trouble" is just a case of education. There was an article in New World Notes today about problems with WindLight that could have been resolved by reading a single KB article. [2008/04/11 14:56] Arawn Spitteler: Days of Adventure, start a history log of "Early Problems, as they're addressed" [2008/04/11 14:56] Mari Moonbeam: when things are fixed-a search could be done adn then the work around deleted [2008/04/11 14:56] Sabina Stenvaag: Jeremy---what was that KB artical aobut might I ask? [2008/04/11 14:56] Jon Linden: true, but creating articles in the KB that we know have limited shelf-life seems suboptimal from a resource/time standpoint [2008/04/11 14:57] Jeremy Linden grabs the resources. [2008/04/11 14:57] Sabina Stenvaag: TY very much [2008/04/11 14:57] Jon Linden: i wonder if it might be worthwhile to think about another wiki portal for "SL Workarounds" [2008/04/11 14:57] Jacer Shepherd: Egads [2008/04/11 14:57] You: The article: [2008/04/11 14:57] You: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/04/is-the-windligh.html [2008/04/11 14:57] Strife Onizuka: (BE-v are Nicholaz Beresford's builds of the viewer that have some extra patches) [2008/04/11 14:57] You: The solution: http://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=4765 [2008/04/11 14:58] Sabina Stenvaag: i jsut fournd newworldnotes age --i'll find it omr here--thank [2008/04/11 14:58] Sabina Stenvaag: TY [2008/04/11 14:58] Jessica Lyon: ooo what i miss? [2008/04/11 14:58] Taryn London: Jess! [2008/04/11 14:58] Jessica Lyon: Taryn!! huggers! [2008/04/11 14:58] Mari Moonbeam: Can I ask a question, probably wrong place? [2008/04/11 14:58] Jessica Lyon: lol Jeremy [2008/04/11 14:58] WidgetHUD v1.1: Jessica Lyon has pinged you. [2008/04/11 14:58] Jon Linden: you've arrived near the end of Documentation Office Hours, Jessica [2008/04/11 14:58] Jon Linden: mari, go ahead [2008/04/11 14:58] Mari Moonbeam: I can't find a driver update place for Macs?-Nvidia [2008/04/11 14:59] Sabina Stenvaag: got it strife--i've tired the micholaz one--don't hve thecurren one [2008/04/11 14:59] Jon Linden: sorry; i'm not the right person to ask -- i don't have a Mac [2008/04/11 14:59] Mari Moonbeam: ok-thx [2008/04/11 14:59] Jessica Lyon: eeew @ mac.. no offence :) [2008/04/11 14:59] You: The debate has been flying! You missed a bit about the wiki, and we've been wadering around "how to submit potential edits to the KB" [2008/04/11 14:59] Jon Linden: the answer really is the KB Suggestions tickets, now that we've gotten on top of the triage [2008/04/11 14:59] You: Hmm... I'm not sure about Mac drivers either. Do we have links on the System Requirements page? [2008/04/11 14:59] Mari Moonbeam problem hearing Jessica--darn viewer [2008/04/11 15:00] Mari Moonbeam: it is for PCs [2008/04/11 15:00] Jessica Lyon: lol [2008/04/11 15:00] Jon Linden: a cursory google search reveals what appear to be Nvidia drivers for Macs, though it's hard to tell how current they are [2008/04/11 15:00] Gaia Rossini: Mari, send me a Im tomorrow. i will address you to someone that can help you [2008/04/11 15:01] Mari Moonbeam: Oh thank you [2008/04/11 15:01] Jon Linden: hooray for Residents helping Residents! [2008/04/11 15:01] Gaia Rossini: You are welcome !! :-) [2008/04/11 15:01] Gaia Rossini: :-) [2008/04/11 15:01] Strife Onizuka: A possible solution is to mirror KB articles onto the wiki and let people edit the mirror then you can import differences as you see fit [2008/04/11 15:01] Jacer Shepherd: Mari ... try posting your question at http://forums.secondlife.com/forumdisplay.php?f=111 [2008/04/11 15:01] Jarod Godel: is this Prospero's meeting? [2008/04/11 15:01] You: This is Documentation Office Hours :-) [2008/04/11 15:01] Jon Linden: actually, there are some weird copyright issues around wiki content vs KB content that i'm going to be looking at next week [2008/04/11 15:01] Jarod Godel: oh, sorry [2008/04/11 15:01] You: No worries! [2008/04/11 15:02] You: Feel free to stay and chat if you want :-) [2008/04/11 15:02] Strife Onizuka nods "ensure the contributers have signed the Contributers Agreement" [2008/04/11 15:02] Jessica Lyon: < outa the loop atm [2008/04/11 15:02] You: Jessica, I wouldn't worry. We're sort of wandering around, topic-wise. [2008/04/11 15:03] Jessica Lyon: oh phew! so i'm not the only one lost lol [2008/04/11 15:03] Gaia Rossini: :-) [2008/04/11 15:03] Jon Linden: that's kind of how this office hour always goes, it's a voyage of discovery [2008/04/11 15:03] Mari Moonbeam accepted your inventory offer. [2008/04/11 15:03] Jessica Lyon: discovery can be good ! [2008/04/11 15:03] Jessica Lyon: what's primary topic? [2008/04/11 15:03] Jessica Lyon: +the* [2008/04/11 15:04] Jon Linden: Second Life documentation -- primarily the Knowledge Base, though we're dipping our toe into the public wiki pool [2008/04/11 15:04] You: The primary topic is "anything related to Second Life documentation, mostly the Knowledge Base" [2008/04/11 15:04] Jon Linden: or at least we will be [2008/04/11 15:04] Jon Linden: soon [2008/04/11 15:04] Jessica Lyon: aaah cool.. kk [2008/04/11 15:04] You: I'm also taking on a meatspace project next quarter-- a printable Quick Start Guide in 10 pages or less. [2008/04/11 15:04] Jessica Lyon: < thinks up somethin to ask... [2008/04/11 15:04] Jon Linden: Jarod, according to the Office Hours page, Prospero's office hours are on Wednesdays [2008/04/11 15:04] Sabina Stenvaag goes to read more about VBO's , thanks for the chat [2008/04/11 15:04] Time Minder: You have been online for 1 hours. [2008/04/11 15:04] Jessica Lyon: oh nice Jeremy! [2008/04/11 15:04] WidgetHUD v1.1: Jessica Lyon has pinged you. [2008/04/11 15:04] Jon Linden: wait, did he leave [2008/04/11 15:04] Jon Linden: nevermind [2008/04/11 15:04] Mari Moonbeam: The real biggie is ease of use. I came in thru CSI and let me tell LOST sums it up [2008/04/11 15:05] You: Thanks for coming, Sabina! [2008/04/11 15:05] Jessica Lyon: i havn't done the csi yet [2008/04/11 15:05] Jon Linden: jeremy's quick start guide is going to be good [2008/04/11 15:05] You: Heh. I imagine the orientation experience through CSI must be different than for most Residents. [2008/04/11 15:05] Jessica Lyon: that's an epic idea actually [2008/04/11 15:05] Jessica Lyon: specially making it smaller, summarized [2008/04/11 15:06] Mari Moonbeam: Very laggy and when I tried all clues not out--so you looked and looked for no solution- [2008/04/11 15:06] Jon Linden: CSI took people to the OnRez viewer, didn't it? [2008/04/11 15:06] You: Indeed... My requirements are that it gets people to do three things: [2008/04/11 15:06] You: 1) Exploring (moving, searching, camera-ing) [2008/04/11 15:06] You: 2) Communicating (chat, voice, IM) [2008/04/11 15:06] Jessica Lyon: orientation islands need moar interaction with new resi's... to learn to do more things [2008/04/11 15:06] Mari Moonbeam: Yes OnREz and then when you asked people they wrre regular viewer and didn't know what was "wrong" with me [2008/04/11 15:06] You: and 3) Finding more detailed information :-) [2008/04/11 15:06] Jessica Lyon: search tool yes! [2008/04/11 15:06] Mari Moonbeam: And dressing [2008/04/11 15:07] Jessica Lyon: lol, and dressing [2008/04/11 15:07] Simon Kline: sounds great jeremy [2008/04/11 15:07] WidgetHUD v1.1: Simon Kline has pinged you. [2008/04/11 15:07] Jessica Lyon: unpacking! [2008/04/11 15:07] You: Heh. Dressing and shopping wouldn't hurt, I suppose :-) [2008/04/11 15:07] Jon Linden: this sounds like material for the next Resident Knowledge Summit [2008/04/11 15:07] Jessica Lyon: mmhmm [2008/04/11 15:07] Simon Kline: what's a resident knowledge summit? [2008/04/11 15:07] Jessica Lyon: < hands Jon a pen [2008/04/11 15:07] Mari Moonbeam: I also think orientation should include a tour of a house or two [2008/04/11 15:07] Jon Linden: we started a monthly meeting that tries to include all of the groups at Linden Lab that interact with Residents in a "here's some knowledge" kind of way [2008/04/11 15:08] Jacer Shepherd: Great [2008/04/11 15:08] Jon Linden: mentors, proactive initiatives, i-world, the people who do Orientation Island, volunteers, etc [2008/04/11 15:08] You: Volunteer coordinators, too! [2008/04/11 15:08] Jon Linden: right [2008/04/11 15:08] You: Er, yeah you got that, nevermind :-X [2008/04/11 15:08] Simon Kline: wow sounds great [2008/04/11 15:08] Jessica Lyon: when is that btw? [2008/04/11 15:08] Jon Linden: the first meeting was yesterday [2008/04/11 15:08] Jessica Lyon: the next one [2008/04/11 15:08] Jon Linden: oh, it's an internal meeting [2008/04/11 15:08] Jessica Lyon: d'oh! i missed it! [2008/04/11 15:09] Jessica Lyon: need a better calendar system! [2008/04/11 15:09] Jessica Lyon: all in one calendar [2008/04/11 15:09] Simon Kline: i guess if it's internal it's up to each department to get info from their rezzie groups like v-team from mentors [2008/04/11 15:09] Jon Linden: i mean it's a Linden meeting [2008/04/11 15:09] Jessica Lyon: i never heard anything from vteam about it [2008/04/11 15:10] You: Basically, we're trying to find way, internally, of leveraging the things we're doing and finding ways our projects fit well together. [2008/04/11 15:10] Simon Kline: they have been asking alot about welcome area experiences [2008/04/11 15:10] Jon Linden: there are people looking into retuning those pretty heavily [2008/04/11 15:10] Jon Linden: one group we're including in the Resident Knowledge Summit for sure [2008/04/11 15:10] You: Heh. Indeed! [2008/04/11 15:11] Jessica Lyon: mentors!? [2008/04/11 15:11] You: It's all about helping people understand what's going on. SL throws a lot of information about you FAST :-) [2008/04/11 15:11] Mari Moonbeam: Good idea, I havea simple thing I can't easily find--when something goes wacky--I look for it in blog and if it isn't there-where do I report it? [2008/04/11 15:11] Jon Linden: mentor coordinators are also included [2008/04/11 15:11] Jessica Lyon: need moar vteam then lol [2008/04/11 15:11] You: Mari, would http://support.secondlife.com help? [2008/04/11 15:11] Jon Linden: Amber, Blue, and George are all in on it already [2008/04/11 15:12] Jessica Lyon: oh good [2008/04/11 15:12] Arawn Spitteler: Some little whackies don't look adequate for Jira, but squawks should be acked [2008/04/11 15:12] Jeremy Linden raises an eyebrow. [2008/04/11 15:12] Jon Linden: now's as good a time as any to point out that we've gone a little overtime [2008/04/11 15:13] Jon Linden: i figured it was only fair, since i wasn't here for the first 10 minutes or so! [2008/04/11 15:13] Jessica Lyon: lol [2008/04/11 15:13] Jessica Lyon: only 13 minutes! [2008/04/11 15:13] Jessica Lyon: besides, i came late [2008/04/11 15:13] Jessica Lyon: cant start without me ;) [2008/04/11 15:13] Simon Kline: omg! hehe thanks for the office hour guys! [2008/04/11 15:13] Jacer Shepherd: Lucky 13 :) [2008/04/11 15:13] Gaia Rossini: Jeremy yesterday I dropped you a note...buy my questions are not of "general and International" interest, so i am waiting.... [2008/04/11 15:13] WidgetHUD v1.1: Gaia Rossini has pinged you. [2008/04/11 15:13] Arawn Spitteler: Overtime makes it look like a good productive meeting [2008/04/11 15:13] You: Heheh. I think it's AWESOME that you all showed up this week, though. What was your motivation? :-) [2008/04/11 15:13] Jacer Shepherd: Yes, thank you for listening :) [2008/04/11 15:13] Jon Linden: we're here every week! [2008/04/11 15:13] Taryn London: Snacks, as always. [2008/04/11 15:13] Jessica Lyon: lol, i'm with Taryn [2008/04/11 15:13] Jessica Lyon: snacks! [2008/04/11 15:13] You: Gaia, I forwarded your note up the chain :-) [2008/04/11 15:14] Gaia Rossini: :-) [2008/04/11 15:14] Taryn London digs up a protest sign for more pizza! [2008/04/11 15:14] Mari Moonbeam: Jeremy-yes that window is great-- and I wonder why it isn't HUGE on main portal page as a chocie? [2008/04/11 15:14] Jessica Lyon: < likes to know what's goin on [2008/04/11 15:14] Jessica Lyon: lol Tar [2008/04/11 15:14] Simon Kline is the same as Jess.. like to see what great ideas u guys have come up with [2008/04/11 15:15] You: Good to hear! Was it more effective that I posted about Office Hours on the same day? [2008/04/11 15:15] Jessica Lyon: and not so great.. cough cough, merging tsl.. cough choke cough [2008/04/11 15:15] Taryn London: LOL Jess [2008/04/11 15:15] Arawn Spitteler just figured it better, than making big bucks in a tOOb race [2008/04/11 15:15] Simon Kline: you posted about them? i didn't see [2008/04/11 15:15] Taryn London: I like to keep on top of things too, know what's going on, that is why I come [2008/04/11 15:15] Jon Linden: we always mention office hours at the end of the Knowledge Base Article of the Week blog posts [2008/04/11 15:16] Strife Onizuka rememebers when the t00b was created <.< [2008/04/11 15:16] Jessica Lyon: sl needs a unified office hour event calendar! [2008/04/11 15:16] Simon Kline: ohhhh hehe i think that's what made me come along the first time [2008/04/11 15:16] Jessica Lyon: all inclusive [2008/04/11 15:16] You: No kidding. We've sort of got that on the wiki... [2008/04/11 15:16] Simon Kline: there's a google calender jessica... [2008/04/11 15:16] Jessica Lyon: only sorta lol [2008/04/11 15:16] Jacer Shepherd: yes, wiki is how I got here :) [2008/04/11 15:16] Jessica Lyon: orly? [2008/04/11 15:16] You: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours [2008/04/11 15:16] Jessica Lyon: ooo win! [2008/04/11 15:16] Simon Kline: which is what i use.. [2008/04/11 15:16] Jessica Lyon: how did i not know that... [2008/04/11 15:16] Nitram Foden: :) [2008/04/11 15:17] Strife Onizuka: i saw all the transcript log page creations on the wiki and came here that way [2008/04/11 15:17] Strife Onizuka: *checks* edits i mean [2008/04/11 15:17] Arawn Spitteler: I think we have to chart our preferences in Office Hours personally, and I'm a bit slow to find a pad of paper. [2008/04/11 15:17] Jessica Lyon: oooo nice [2008/04/11 15:17] Jessica Lyon: < hands Arawn a pen and paper [2008/04/11 15:18] Jon Linden: folks, this has been a good hour, but i've got to run! [2008/04/11 15:18] You: Ah, yeah. I categorized them all today! [2008/04/11 15:18] Jessica Lyon: thx for ya time guys :) [2008/04/11 15:18] Gaia Rossini: Thanks for your time...It was really interesting:-) [2008/04/11 15:18] Simon Kline: have a great weekend Jon and Jeremy! [2008/04/11 15:18] WidgetHUD v1.1: Simon Kline has pinged you. [2008/04/11 15:18] Nitram Foden: take care have a nice weekend! :) [2008/04/11 15:18] Jon Linden: you too, everyone! [2008/04/11 15:18] You: Likewise, folks. Thanks for coming! [2008/04/11 15:18] Jacer Shepherd: Thanks ! [2008/04/11 15:18] Jessica Lyon: i hear my kids beating each other up downstairs... gotta brb [2008/04/11 15:18] You: We're here at the same time and place each week :-) [2008/04/11 15:19] Jon Linden: feel free to come back! [2008/04/11 15:19] Strife Onizuka: thanks for having us [2008/04/11 15:19] Becky Pippen: Thanks guys! Bye! [2008/04/11 15:19] Taryn London: ty Jon, Jeremy :) [2008/04/11 15:19] WidgetHUD v1.1: Taryn London has pinged you. [2008/04/11 15:19] Strife Onizuka: if you want to run ideas past me about the wiki, my user talk page is always editable [2008/04/11 15:19] Nitram Foden: waves and poofs :) [2008/04/11 15:19] You: Good to know! [2008/04/11 15:20] Mari Moonbeam: Bye-thank you [2008/04/11 15:20] Arawn Spitteler: I'm a bit bothered, by the poor documentation of Sitting. I'm not sure all behaviour's even been designed [2008/04/11 15:20] You: I'm glad to have some old-timers here. I'm sure your experience as a ResMod and wiki editor will spark some good debates :-) [2008/04/11 15:21] Strife Onizuka: i hope not any of the old debates [2008/04/11 15:21] You: No worries about that. Each iteration brings new ideas. [2008/04/11 15:21] Strife Onizuka: you do moderating long enough and... well... you take a few steps back from issues [2008/04/11 15:21] Strife Onizuka: hopefully [2008/04/11 15:22] Strife Onizuka: ^^; i'm only a little bit jaded [2008/04/11 15:22] You: No worries! [2008/04/11 15:22] Strife Onizuka: =^_^= [2008/04/11 15:22] You: Anyhow, I'm a Boston Linden, so it's weekend time! :-D [2008/04/11 15:22] Taryn London: WooT [2008/04/11 15:22] Taryn London: Happy weekend! [2008/04/11 15:22] You: Huzzah! [2008/04/11 15:22] Strife Onizuka: take care, happy weekend [2008/04/11 15:22] Jacer Shepherd: Yeah ! [2008/04/11 15:22] You: Thanks! [2008/04/11 15:22] Jacer Shepherd: happy weekender :) [2008/04/11 15:22] You: See y'all next week!