Doc Team/2008-04-25

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[13:46]  You: Hiya earlybirds!
[13:46]  Becky Pippen: Hiya Jeremy
[13:46]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Becky Pippen has pinged you.
[13:47]  Jeremy Linden is having fun playing with the "Avatar Rendering Cost" info display in the new RC.
[13:47]  Becky Pippen: Oh yes! What's the highest number you've seen so far?
[13:47]  You: Just over 6300
[13:47]  Kooky Jetaime: Uhm
[13:48]  Kooky Jetaime: give me a minute
[13:48]  Kooky Jetaime: whats my cost right now?
[13:48]  You: You? If I zoom all the way in, 731
[13:48]  You: Not bad!
[13:48]  You: My GOD.
[13:48]  You: New record!
[13:48]  Kooky Jetaime: :)
[13:48]  You: 9315
[13:48]  Kooky Jetaime: ROFLOL
[13:49]  Kooky Jetaime: Hold on
[13:49]  Kooky Jetaime: give me a minute
[13:49]  Kooky Jetaime: that was just 1 thing
[13:50]  Jeremy Linden cringes.
[13:50]  You: 12349
[13:50]  Kooky Jetaime: and people wonder why Combat Sims lag
[13:50]  You: Well, this is just visual rendering cost, for the most part.
[13:51]  Kooky Jetaime: yea, but framerates are killed in combat sims
[13:51]  You: Heh. Yep.
[13:51]  You: Tell them to use Watermelon Guns!
[13:51]  Kooky Jetaime: Did it change at all?
[13:52]  You: 16117
[13:52]  Kooky Jetaime: OK, then invisible prims do count as less
[13:52]  You: Heh. The spikes made it go down.
[13:53]  Kooky Jetaime: Really?
[13:53]  You: Yep, you went down to 15-thousand-something
[13:53]  Oscar Feller: thanks for the teleport
[13:53]  Kooky Jetaime: ok
[13:53]  You: You're welcome, Oscar. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours... er, in 5 minutes :-)
[13:53]  Kooky Jetaime: one more thing that I'm cuirous about
[13:53]  Kooky Jetaime: let me change avi's
[13:54]  You: Heh. When you were holstering the pistols, it went over 20000 briefly.
[13:54]  Kooky Jetaime: because of the fact that they all went visible until the scripts could start hiding things
[13:54]  Kooky Jetaime: but wow :)
[13:55]  You: 4071 :-)
[13:55]  Kooky Jetaime: Thats not to bad then
[13:55]  Kooky Jetaime: my guns are a bigger hit than this avi
[13:55]  You: Er... comparatively speaking. 2000 is "in the red".
[13:55]  Kooky Jetaime: if 2000 is in the red, what is 20,000??? the Sun?
[13:56]  You: "Still red."
[13:56]  Kooky Jetaime: asset server is having probs again
[13:56]  Kooky Jetaime: my textures arn't loading
[13:56]  You: It was... reports say it should be fixed-ish now.
[13:56]  Kooky Jetaime: There they went
[13:57]  You: I think it would be fun to allow LSL scripts to access rendering costs... "Your cost must be at most THIS SMALL in order to ride this attraction."
[13:58]  You: 1
[13:58]  Becky Pippen: lol
[13:58]  Time Minder: You have been online for 1 hours.
[13:58]  Kooky Jetaime: Should be 1
[13:59]  Kooky Jetaime: I'm wearing nothing
[13:59]  You: You are.
[13:59]  You: Er... at 1
[13:59]  Oscar Feller: is there any kind of Q & A scheduled regarding the new ceo?
[13:59]  Kooky Jetaime: Now its just my glasses, so it shouldn't be much
[13:59]  You: 78
[13:59]  Oscar Feller: for residents?
[13:59]  Kooky Jetaime: Wow
[14:00]  You: Oscar, I'm uncertain. I'm sure he'll be making an announcement when he starts, which will be soon.
[14:00]  Kooky Jetaime: the only thing I'm wearing is the glasses on my face and it counts as 78?? Whats it counting, verticies?
[14:00]  You: Not sure, Kooky. It may be.
[14:00]  You: Torii are particularly expensive.
[14:00]  Kooky Jetaime: oh question
[14:01]  Kooky Jetaime: doe sit count avatars alone, or do we get joined to what we sit on?
[14:01]  You: Not sure... I don't think it counts what you're sitting on, but I'm not an expert on it yet.
[14:01]  Oscar Feller: where would you recommend we ask questions or express our concerns about what this means for the grid?
[14:01]  Kooky Jetaime: ok, tag me now then I'll sit and tell me if it chagnes
[14:01]  You: Oscar, about the CEO?
[14:01]  Becky Pippen: that depends on the context... in LSL for example, a sitting avatar is another prim in the link set
[14:01]  Oscar Feller: yes
[14:02]  You: Hmm... Let me check on that for you.
[14:03]  You: Hello Qie, welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:03]  Oscar Feller: thank you
[14:03]  Qie Niangao: Hi, Jeremy, ev'rybody
[14:03]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Qie Niangao has pinged you.
[14:03]  Becky Pippen: Hi Qie
[14:03]  Oscar Feller: hello all
[14:04]  Jon Linden: what have we got for the ol' agenda today, good people?
[14:04]  Becky Pippen: I'm just here for the cookies and punch.
[14:04]  Qie Niangao was planning to just listen-in, it being his first visit
[14:04]  Jon Linden: when it comes right down to it, that's an excellent reason to be anywhere
[14:05]  Jon Linden: well, to give you an update on how the KB's doing ...
[14:06]  Jon Linden: we're still cranking away on the technical review of the KB
[14:06]  Jon Linden: also working through it from a style angle, making sure all of our terms and language line up
[14:06]  Jon Linden: we'll likely also take a crack at it from a trademark-usage standpoint (this should be pretty simple, actually)
[14:06]  You: Active voice! Internationally-friendly phrases! :-)
[14:07]  Kooky Jetaime: what?
[14:07]  You: Sorry, word geekery.
[14:07]  Kooky Jetaime: what kind of trademark isssues have you?
[14:07]  Kooky Jetaime: I mean...
[14:07]  You: As for trademark usage, we need to make sure we're using terms correctly.
[14:07]  You: For instance... We are in the "Second Life world" using the "Second Life Viewer"
[14:07]  Jon Linden: just trying to disambiguate, essentially
[14:08]  Jon Linden: wow, there's a word i never thought would see much use outside of wikipedia
[14:08]  Kooky Jetaime: well
[14:08]  Kooky Jetaime: nevermind, I'll shush
[14:08]  Oscar Feller: why do they use viewer rather than client?
[14:08]  Kooky Jetaime: I've said it enough elsewhere
[14:08]  Jon Linden: said what enough, Kooky?
[14:09]  Jon Linden: viewer's a little easier to understand than "client" for non-technical people
[14:09]  You: Not sure, Oscar. Probably to distinguish it from other web-connected programs, like browsers.
[14:09]  Oscar Feller: oh
[14:09]  Kooky Jetaime: Noone can even define what "Second Life" is, yet its the name slapped on to /everything/. Theres Second Life. Then the Second Life Grid. (Totally different thing)
[14:10]  Jon Linden: currently, kooky, it's hard to define what "Second Life" is only because it's a term attached to several different things
[14:10]  You: Kooky, that's exactly what we're trying to resolve... When we say "Second Life" currently, it could mean any number of things.
[14:10]  Kooky Jetaime: Right.
[14:10]  Kooky Jetaime: But until LL takes a stand and defines it...
[14:10]  Jon Linden: that's what the trademark guidelines are for, kooky
[14:10]  You: So by saying "Second Life Viewer", you are clearly referring to "the program used to access the Second Life world."
[14:10]  Kooky Jetaime: A few people agree, naming it "Second Life Grid" technology was a bad move.
[14:11]  Jon Linden: it wasn't my personal call
[14:11]  Kooky Jetaime: I know
[14:11]  Kooky Jetaime: I'm just saying its hard to talk about something when you don't even know what it is
[14:11]  You: Hi Tegg, welcome :-)
[14:11]  Tegg Bode: Hi All, cool AV Jon, did you change shoes Jeremy?
[14:11]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Tegg Bode has pinged you.
[14:11]  Jeremy Linden looks at his shoes.
[14:11]  Jon Linden: adding just a word or two after "Second Life" should create far less confusion
[14:11]  Kooky Jetaime: its a world, program, community, technology, experiance, interaction, concept
[14:11]  You: Nope, same shoes... I did take them off for a minute today to check my rendering cost, though!
[14:12]  Tegg Bode: Ah that's waht it is, you put them back on wrong feet :)
[14:12]  Jon Linden: the trademark guidelines actually help this issue tremendously, kooky
[14:12]  Jon Linden: the trouble is getting people to actually follow them
[14:13]  Jon Linden: http://secondlife.com/corporate/brand/trademark/index.php
[14:13]  Jon Linden: tegg, i decided it was time for a little change ^__^
[14:13]  You: Hi Simon. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:13]  Simon Kline: Hi Jeremy, thanks :D Hi all :D
[14:13]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Simon Kline has pinged you.
[14:13]  Becky Pippen: Hi Simon
[14:15]  Oscar Feller: honestly, my reaction was to remove the link to the officail website from my personal web page
[14:15]  Jon Linden: your reaction to the trademark guidelines, oscar?
[14:15]  Oscar Feller: yes
[14:15]  Jon Linden: why'd you do that?
[14:16]  Oscar Feller: because I had not placed a ™ after it
[14:16]  You: Heh. I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, neither Jon or I are legal experts on this matter, but I think if you read the guidelines and the explanations on the blog, you should be able to get a good sense of what's allowable and what's not.
[14:17]  Jon Linden: dude, i don't think there's anything in the guidelines that says you have to do that (i'm checking right now)
[14:17]  You: I think it's much more lenient than many people believe.
[14:17]  You: Hi Sam. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:17]  Entering god mode, level 200
[14:17]  Tegg Bode: I have a gesture that ads the TM to Second Life®
[14:18]  You: Hmm... interesting.
[14:18]  Kooky Jetaime: Haha
[14:18]  Becky Pippen: cool idea, Tegg :-)
[14:18]  Kooky Jetaime: I just (tm)
[14:18]  Tegg Bode: Sorry I mean the R
[14:18]  Tegg Bode: SL™
[14:18]  You: What happens if you type a word like "slice"?
[14:18]  Simon Kline: i agree with the lienient attitude that LL have towards this.. in the sl blog they said if a problem comes to their attention they will negotiate with you to fix it (or something to that effect) rather than being rough about it
[14:19]  Tegg Bode: slice
[14:19]  Kooky Jetaime: don't forget, LL(tm) is trademarked as well.
[14:19]  Tegg Bode: Lindenlab
[14:19]  Tegg Bode: lindenlab
[14:19]  Kooky Jetaime: Oooh violation, corrupting the trademark :D
[14:19]  Tegg Bode: linden lab
[14:19]  Jon Linden: haha
[14:19]  Tegg Bode: lol doesn't work eek!
[14:20]  You: Doh.
[14:20]  Jon Linden: i think you'll be safe from our ravening horde of swarming lawyerbots, tegg
[14:20]  Simon Kline: hehehehe
[14:20]  Tegg Bode: lol helps if I activate the gesture before saying Linden Lab®
[14:21]  Sam Tinkel: What up?
[14:21]  You: Hi Trinity. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours. Welcome Sam, too, if you didn't hear my before :-)
[14:21]  Trinity Coulter: hi kung fu master Jeremy
[14:21]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Trinity Coulter has pinged you.
[14:21]  Tegg Bode: anyone want a copy?
[14:21]  You: And Hello Kitty, welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:21]  Sam Tinkel: I faced a crash.. Sorry!
[14:21]  Jeremy Linden's fingers get tired from re-typing.
[14:21]  Kitty Barnett: hey-ies everyone :) hey-ies Qie :) *waves*
[14:21]  Jon Linden: hello to Kitty, too, and Asriazh
[14:22]  Trinity Coulter: gestures for common phrases
[14:22]  You: Hello Asriazh, welcome to Documentation Office Hours!
[14:22]  Asriazh Frye: hello jon ^_^
[14:22]  Qie Niangao: ooo, heya, Kitty!
[14:22]  Jeremy Linden is not a kung-fu master... he is a Knowledge Base-fu master :-)
[14:22]  Jon Linden: our Documentation Office Hour is proving to be a slow-growing hit
[14:23]  Trinity Coulter: do you have neat ways to crack people over the head with kb articles?
[14:23]  Tegg Bode: Yeah I could never find the "little r in a circle" key on any of my keyboards :)
[14:23]  You: I do! One moment...
[14:23]  Kooky Jetaime: Thats what character map is good for
[14:23]  Kitty Barnett: when I refer people to the KB they think it's short for my name :|
[14:23]  Jon Linden: heh
[14:23]  You: kb-3989
[14:23]  WidgetHUD v1.1: http://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=3989
[14:23]  Trinity Coulter: as long as there's some violence and sex involved, people will come to the KB
[14:23]  Oscar Feller: I can do it on my pc but haven't figured it out on my mac
[14:23]  Tegg Bode: Ah we will just refer people to you then Kitty :)
[14:24]  Kitty Barnett: yay!
[14:24]  Sam Tinkel: Does anyone know how many people are in this game?
[14:24]  Trinity Coulter: maybe a Buddy Cop movie approach to KB articles
[14:24]  Simon Kline: lol "See the kb" "I thought I was already looking at her"
[14:24]  Kooky Jetaime: OK, ® is ALT-0174
[14:24]  Jon Linden: what game, Sam?
[14:24]  Tegg Bode: ®
[14:24]  Qie Niangao tried for a moment to find the ALT project on the jira
[14:24]  Kooky Jetaime: This ™ is ALT-0153
[14:24]  Tegg Bode: cool
[14:25]  You: Hmm... Jon, that's what we're missing. Sex and violence. Must file a JIRA.
[14:25]  Sam Tinkel: Second life (if its not the reality!!)
[14:25]  Jon Linden: technically speaking, ye oldynne Second Life virtual world is not actually a game, per se
[14:25]  Kooky Jetaime: and © is ALT-0169
[14:25]  Tegg Bode: wow alternative uses for the alt key :)
[14:25]  You: If you're lazy, you can just copy the character into the "notes" section of your profile so you can copy them again later.
[14:25]  Jon Linden: i like to think of it as a magical foreign country i happen to visit using a computer
[14:26]  Kitty Barnett: or (R) for extra-lazy :p
[14:26]  Kooky Jetaime: Yes. (C) (R) and (TM) work too
[14:26]  Kooky Jetaime: Or give me one second.
[14:26]  Jon Linden: i like the notion of the knowledge base as the product of a buddy-cop adventure
[14:27]  Jon Linden: i'm already wearing a space cop avatar
[14:27]  Jon Linden: jeremy, this would make you the loose-cannon character
[14:27]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you.
[14:27]  You: I did once find a noir-style fan fiction about Orientation Island.
[14:27]  Jon Linden: whoa
[14:28]  Kooky Jetaime: ® test
[14:28]  Kooky Jetaime: cool
[14:28]  Kooky Jetaime: ® (TM) (C) Test
[14:28]  You: Heh. Loose cannon, eh? Well if you don't like it you can have my badge and keyboard!
[14:28]  Simon Kline: hahah cool!
[14:28]  Kooky Jetaime: test ®
[14:28]  Kooky Jetaime: ok
[14:28]  Jon Linden: hahaha
[14:28]  Kooky Jetaime: I have 3 gestures to change the () marks to the single char marks
[14:29]  Simon Kline: there's certinally ways to brighten things up... i often thought that instruction manuals could have a good story to them!!..."George came home from a day he'd rather forget, the rain dripping off him he walked through the door and looked at the tv and found the BLACK CORD and put it in the RED SOCKET"
[14:29]  Kooky Jetaime: You know
[14:29]  Tegg Bode: Hmm is th badge real brass or just brass platted?
[14:30]  Kooky Jetaime: I'm surprised that VALVe(r) hasn't trademarked or registered "the cake is a lie"
[14:30]  You: Plastic, with an embedded RFID chip.
[14:30]  You: And a snazzy elastic reel that clips to my belt.
[14:30]  Jon Linden: only the best for my officers!
[14:31]  Qie Niangao thinks "snaz" is a much underappreciated noun
[14:31]  Kitty Barnett: are either of you involved with the A/B "no OI for newbies, only a tutorial" test, Jon or Jeremy?
[14:31]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Kitty Barnett has pinged you.
[14:31]  Jon Linden: it comes in noun form, too?
[14:31]  Oscar Feller: so how does one assist with documentation?
[14:31]  Qie Niangao: heheh, not really, Jon
[14:31]  Jon Linden: kitty, i know i'm not
[14:31]  You: I am no, though we did just get out of a meeting with someone who is!
[14:31]  Jon Linden: oscar, assisting in what capacity?
[14:31]  Qie Niangao: like the singular of "suds" is pretty infrequent, too
[14:32]  Kitty Barnett: just thought would be useful to have a link to the kb right there so people are aware of it when they're brand new already :o
[14:32]  Tegg Bode: Cool bring them here so we can decide whether we use the violence part on them :)
[14:32]  Simon Kline: Kitty did u make to georges last week when jamie linden was there?
[14:32]  Kitty Barnett: yesh
[14:32]  Oscar Feller: I was considering trying to make a tutoral on using a gadget I made
[14:32]  Jon Linden: we don't really document things that Residents create, oscar
[14:33]  Oscar Feller: that rezzes a box and allows you to rename it in chat
[14:33]  You: Indeed, Kitty. In fact, the reason we were just meeting with Jaime was to coordinate and cooperate between the tutorial and the PDF quick start guide I'm working on.
[14:33]  Kitty Barnett: ah okies, yay for that then! :)
[14:33]  Simon Kline: sounds neat
[14:33]  Trin's Flight Ball: All Go
[14:33]  Jon Linden: kitty, we're also floating aroudn the idea of seeding a link to the KB in the Web tab of everybody's profile
[14:33]  Oscar Feller: for boxing up inventory, without building and changing a prims properties
[14:34]  You: Heh. Like I do already with my Web tab.
[14:34]  Jon Linden: oscar, that sounds like a neat gadget, but documenting Resident creations is the job of Residents
[14:34]  Jon Linden: given the volume of things that get created every day, we would need a staff of thousands
[14:34]  You: Ah, cool, Oscar. Have you considered including an instructional Notecard (or better, a prim book!) to teach people how to use your product?
[14:35]  Oscar Feller: I will likely do that as well
[14:35]  Jon Linden: hello Saijanai; welcome to Documentation Office Hours!
[14:35]  Qie Niangao: hi, Sai!
[14:35]  Trinity Coulter: i was just about to suggest something neat, and i crashed horrible
[14:35]  Becky Pippen: Hi Sai!
[14:35]  Saijanai Kuhn: hey
[14:35]  Trinity Coulter: i think it was the KB fu
[14:36]  You: KB-Fu must be used only for knowledge and defense. Never for attack.
[14:36]  WidgetHUD v1.1: http://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=FU
[14:36]  Trinity Coulter: :)
[14:36]  Oscar Feller: but I learned about boxing inventory from the Torley tutorial
[14:36]  You: Don't click that link.
[14:36]  Trinity Coulter: have you ever played that game Carmen Sandiego?
[14:36]  Tegg Bode: Well suggest something horrible so you crash neatly Trinity :)
[14:36]  Trinity Coulter: you have to go look things up to beat the bad guys
[14:36]  Oscar Feller: in practice I found the repetitive steps tedious after a while
[14:36]  Trinity Coulter: like the population of guatemala
[14:37]  Kooky Jetaime: Trin - yep
[14:37]  Trinity Coulter: how about a SL game like that
[14:37]  Trinity Coulter: maybe based on i-World island
[14:37]  Trinity Coulter: tied into the KB
[14:38]  Jon Linden: trinity, that's actually a fascinating idea
[14:38]  Simon Kline: heheh yeah are u guys going to make documentation island? haha
[14:38]  Jon Linden writes that down
[14:38]  You: Hmm... That sounds cool. I bet you might be able to work with a group like NCI or The Shelter to build a game like that without needing help from Linden Lab.
[14:38]  Qie Niangao: maybe temporarily hide cryptic clues to Magellan's whereabouts in random KB articles. That should get folks busy ;)
[14:38]  Trinity Coulter: :)
[14:38]  Trinity Coulter: yes
[14:38]  Trinity Coulter: lots of room for creativity :)
[14:38]  Jon Linden: i don't think we have the bandwidth to do something like that for ourselves, but it does sound like a neat project for someone else
[14:38]  You: An easter egg hunt, or one of those sequential treasure hunts might be fun.
[14:39]  Saijanai Kuhn: seems to me I've seen Easter Egg hunts of vraious kinds announced
[14:39]  Trinity Coulter: maybe your team could put it out there as some kind of promotion to groups to collaborate on
[14:39]  Kitty Barnett: just require a KB CAPTCHA to log on :p.... "If my L$ balance says 'Loading'.... then I.... (pick the answer :p)"
[14:39]  You: Hm. Jon, idea for the next Knowledge Resources summit?
[14:39]  Saijanai Kuhn: and the CSI:NY islands were basically an easter egg hunt
[14:40]  Jon Linden: writing it down!
[14:40]  Simon Kline: hehe kitty
[14:40]  You: Hello katfancy. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:40]  katfancy Kiergarten: hi
[14:40]  You: Are you feeling ok? You look a little horse.
[14:40]  Trinity Coulter: Bienvenidos to el office hours de documentation
[14:40]  Saijanai Kuhn: once the web-based HUD becomes available, you can do a lot more
[14:41]  Trinity Coulter: perfect spanglish
[14:41]  You: Saijanai, I believe the current Media Browser may fit your description.
[14:41]  Jon Linden: hello Igel!
[14:41]  Saijanai Kuhn: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_Browser_HUD
[14:41]  You: Hello Igel, welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
[14:41]  Igel Hawks: Hi Jon, Jeremy
[14:41]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Igel Hawks has pinged you.
[14:41]  Igel Hawks: Hi @all
[14:42]  You: Ah, that. If you check out the latest RC, go to "Help > Tutorial" :-)
[14:42]  You: I'm not sure about LSL binding yet, though.
[14:42]  Igel Hawks: Oh, cool
[14:42]  Saijanai Kuhn: oh kool so its semi-active already?
[14:43]  You: The tutorial is still under active development. I'm not sure about the browser portion.
[14:43]  Igel Hawks: That's nice :D
[14:43]  Saijanai Kuhn downloads the latest RC (doesn't like Dazzler all that much, I'm afraid)
[14:44]  You: Heh. I won't comment except to say I hope we can get skinning done soon, because that will be cool.
[14:44]  Jon Linden: Dazzler was never a really useful member of the X-Men
[14:44]  Trinity Coulter: skinless for low fat viewing
[14:44]  Saijanai Kuhn: but she and CLoak were an awesome team ;-)
[14:44]  Jon Linden: i enjoy the Dazzle viewer, but maybe i just like brightness
[14:45]  You: I miss the old dark background with white text.
[14:45]  Igel Hawks: It looks unfamilar
[14:45]  Jon Linden: "unfamiliar" =/= "bad," though
[14:45]  Kitty Barnett will go blind trying to read the "Script Errors / Warning" window though :o
[14:45]  You: Hm, true. All the controls should be in the same place. They're just more modern-looking.
[14:45]  Qie Niangao: i'm convinced they chose the Dazzle color scheme to match the Forums ;)
[14:45]  Kitty Barnett: lol
[14:46]  Igel Hawks: I wait for the costum skin
[14:46]  Igel Hawks: The will be for one "old fashioned"
[14:47]  You: Hm. I think there's a wiki page now for manually hacking in custom skins.
[14:47]  Tegg Bode: Lol, the resistance to change is so great here, even if you gave people dazzler with the old skins they wouldn't want it, other people can't have a choice because it's what they want :)
[14:47]  You: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Skinning_HowTo/Basics
[14:48]  Asriazh Frye: changing the skin, at least its colors, is easy and just involves a lot of xml editing and knowing rgb values of colors
[14:48]  Saijanai Kuhn: LL has a PR issue with pushing new things. there should have been a way to make the old skin the default BEFORE tehy released it to RC status
[14:48]  Kooky Jetaime: yea
[14:48]  Kooky Jetaime: Yes, Agreed Sai
[14:48]  Becky Pippen: yes!
[14:48]  Becky Pippen: yes!
[14:48]  Kooky Jetaime: But I think that's been raised a few times with Ben
[14:49]  Tegg Bode: Yep it would have worked better I think that way :)
[14:49]  Saijanai Kuhn: I think we raised it with Ben when it was first announced last year
[14:49]  Saijanai Kuhn: back when it was just a mockup on a webpage
[14:49]  You: Keep in mind that RC is not a required viewer; the new color scheme is not being forced on anyone yet :-)
[14:49]  Kitty Barnett: that faired well when it was about the communicate window... :p
[14:49]  Trinity Coulter: you forced me to think about it!!!
[14:49]  Trinity Coulter: lol
[14:49]  Trinity Coulter: by its existence
[14:49]  Kooky Jetaime: Jeremy - its amazing how close "RC" is to "Release"
[14:49]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Kooky Jetaime has pinged you.
[14:49]  Kooky Jetaime: and Release is to Required.
[14:50]  Tegg Bode: True, it's notto say the skinning won't be optional or inbuilt choices by the time it replaces the standard
[14:50]  Kooky Jetaime: Once 1.20 comes out, I'm sure it won't be long before its required.. especially if it contains code for database relief
[14:50]  Saijanai Kuhn: I'm not sure that that is the case. RC implies final feature set
[14:50]  Trinity Coulter: Apply Viewer directly to forehead?
[14:50]  Trinity Coulter: for database relief
[14:50]  You: There's been a lot of internal debate on exactly this topic. I can't say much about it, but suffice to say we're not ignoring you!
[14:50]  Kooky Jetaime: I thought the whole point of minor upgrades (.19, .20) was to signify the need to require an update due to grid incompatabilities..
[14:51]  Trinity Coulter: well you can use 1.18 if you want
[14:51]  Kooky Jetaime: Jeremy - which, the naming convention or Dazzle?
[14:51]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Kooky Jetaime has pinged you.
[14:51]  Kooky Jetaime: or Database Relief
[14:51]  You: Dazzle and skinning.
[14:51]  Kooky Jetaime: Trinity - you can only use 1.18 if you use a 3rd party exe with it.
[14:51]  Kooky Jetaime: ie Nicholaz Edition
[14:51]  Saijanai Kuhn: Jeremy I realize. I'm OK with the dazzler UI but prefer the old color scheme. Lots of people are incensed about it though, and some iwth legitimate medical issues
[14:51]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Saijanai Kuhn has pinged you.
[14:51]  Kooky Jetaime: or if you custom compile
[14:51]  You: That's exactly the debate, Saijanai.
[14:52]  Asriazh Frye: i wouldnt say RC is close to release yet and id rather see it classified as beta. it seems you guys changed a lot related to openGL and i'd dare to say it doesnt quite work as well yet, tho i dont crash as soon anymore. but resizing lets the client go into slideshow mode and the last RC i tried which was RC3 had a broken AA filtering
[14:52]  Kitty Barnett is still on RC0 :o lol
[14:52]  Jon Linden: i can't really speak to the RC label or what goes into it, or how its readiness is determined
[14:52]  Trinity Coulter: my viewer still says Linden World
[14:52]  Kitty Barnett: :p
[14:52]  Trinity Coulter: maybe i should update
[14:53]  Saijanai Kuhn: Does Royal Crown cola even exist any more?
[14:53]  Kooky Jetaime: Asriazh - Thats part of the argument that I make.. RC means "Release Candidtate".. The features should be final, Most if not all bugs quashed. But there are bugs that are just getting passed on from RC to RC, RC to Final, and Final to Final... (ie the memory leaks!)
[14:53]  Trinity Coulter: yes, RC is tasty too
[14:53]  You: RC Cola?
[14:53]  Tegg Bode: Hmm is that the B&W Linden World that so many people rave about? :)
[14:53]  Jon Linden: some bugs are harder to find than others
[14:53]  Qie Niangao flashes on Roman Catholic
[14:53]  Kooky Jetaime: I think the RC's should be classed as "Beta".. but I was told that Beta will not be used, since it is already taken by the "Beta Grid"
[14:53]  Trinity Coulter: 1898 version of SL, all sepia toned
[14:53]  Asriazh Frye: alpha then? ^^;
[14:54]  Saijanai Kuhn: some bugs are buried so deep they may neer find them and they will go away by accident if at all
[14:54]  You: Kooky, maybe you're trying to say it should have been a First Look client, rather than RC.
[14:54]  Tegg Bode: Ooooh nice
[14:54]  Kooky Jetaime: Naa, first look to me says more like "alpha"
[14:54]  Kooky Jetaime: but
[14:54]  Trinity Coulter: ooh how about a completely transparent version of SL, like the Emperor's New Client
[14:54]  Kooky Jetaime: I don't know why LL seems to need to create new names for their various versions.
[14:54]  You: Hmm... what was that key-combo..
[14:54]  Saijanai Kuhn: I get teh exact oppoisite. I get black and white, mostly white
[14:54]  Qie Niangao: I think RC really means that development is capped on the old branch
[14:55]  Oscar Feller: ctrl alt f1 will do that
[14:55]  You: Yeah, that's the one.
[14:55]  Trinity Coulter: i'm boring, i just use whatever the proper release is
[14:55]  Asriazh Frye: you dont even know if its running or not cause it hides from your taskmanager as well! that would be neat ^_^ and youd have zero bugs too ^o^
[14:55]  Jon Linden: i'm just going to mention that other office hours than these are probably better places to bring these things up
[14:55]  You: Sounds like a virus :-P
[14:55]  Jon Linden: not that i don't love hearing about it
[14:55]  Trinity Coulter: yes, kind of strayed from Documentation, i think
[14:55]  Jon Linden: it's just that i don't want you guys to be like "Linden Lab ignores us! we brought all these great points up with Jon and Jeremy and they did NOTHIGN"
[14:55]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you.
[14:56]  Saijanai Kuhn: you guys work on the KB docs, right?
[14:56]  Jon Linden: that we do
[14:56]  Trinity Coulter: Jon and Jeremy never ever listen at all to anything!!!
[14:56]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Trinity Coulter has pinged you.
[14:56]  You: Right, among other docs!
[14:56]  Kitty Barnett: people will say that anyway whether you listened or not :p
[14:56]  Jon Linden: hahahaha
[14:56]  Kooky Jetaime: Alpha = First Look, Beta = Alpha but stable enough for public consumption to determine what bugs there are and help track them down. Release Candidate - Most if not all bugs are quashed, feature set is locked for changes. RC0 should be ready to stick as "Official" unless there is a significant as yet undetected bug.
[14:56]  Saijanai Kuhn: I've applied for the tech writer job to work on the programmer docs
[14:56]  Kooky Jetaime: Havng RC4 is sloppy.
[14:56]  Kooky Jetaime: Thats the "Industry Standard" meaning I think of those words.
[14:57]  Saijanai Kuhn: hmmm am I still here?
[14:57]  Kooky Jetaime: you are Sai
[14:57]  Saijanai Kuhn: Lost connecton with the IRC server. but not SL. Go figure
[14:57]  Jon Linden: again, kooky, not a bad point, but i wouldn't call these office hours the ideal venue
[14:57]  You: Ah, the Engineering Technical Writer position. Interestingly, Jon and I are not included in that process, since that position would be unrelated to user documentation. I think.
[14:57]  Jon Linden: pretty much
[14:57]  Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, I'm working on a samle for Rob L.
[14:57]  You: Cool. I hope you do well!
[14:58]  Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Current_login_protocols
[14:58]  Kooky Jetaime: I know Jon. you can't change it...but it seemed in line with the discussion that had run.
[14:58]  Saijanai Kuhn: got into it via the AWG work I'd been doing
[14:58]  Time Minder: You have been online for 2 hours.
[14:59]  Jon Linden: no problem, kook; i'm just trying to set expectations
[14:59]  Qie Niangao: hmmm... how does new features and changes from engineering trigger updates in the user documentation? is there any kind of... i dunno... link structure to know what needs to be updated?
[14:59]  Jon Linden: that actually is a process we're still working on perfecting
[14:59]  Kitty Barnett: like the Tools menu playing peek-a-boo now :o
[14:59]  You: Heh. Yeah, that came up recently. With the latest RC release, in fact.
[14:59]  Trinity Coulter: that's a new built in game, Kitty
[14:59]  Jon Linden: changes to the UI sneak through without our knowing about it until a little late in the game
[14:59]  Saijanai Kuhn: logging to try new RC
[14:59]  Kooky Jetaime: Jon/Jeremy, on a similar note, any ground made regarding getting the server version release notes into the KB?
[15:00]  You: Hmm... I don't recall whether we archive release notes in the KB anymore. My feeling is that I haven't seen any in a long time.
[15:00]  Jon Linden: we talked about it a little at the last Knowledge Summit with Josh
[15:00]  You: This also is something we've been talking about internally.... where to put release notes!
[15:01]  You: Yeah, what Jon said.
[15:01]  Jon Linden: i have a feeling they'll make their way into the KB
[15:01]  Kooky Jetaime: Jermey - you should put "Server" release notes in the KB.. I would say Wiki but there is no need for user input
[15:01]  Jon Linden: right
[15:01]  Kooky Jetaime: Its central, controlled..
[15:01]  Trinity Coulter: do you 2 write most of the information that ends up in the KB?
[15:01]  Jon Linden: these days, mostly
[15:01]  Kooky Jetaime: and you could link it so that when we land in a sim and get the lil yellow popup box, we can see at a glance what the changes are in this sim.
[15:02]  You: Most, but not all! All the stuff you see publically has at least come through us for editing at some point.
[15:02]  Trinity Coulter: :)
[15:02]  Kooky Jetaime: Especially as having a het grid is only going to get more and more common
[15:02]  Becky Pippen: ooo cool idea Kooky
[15:03]  You: Well, I know a long-term goal of some of our developers is to link parts of the UI (like those little question mark buttons) to the KB. I can see that being handy for the aforementioned region crossing thing.
[15:03]  Saijanai Kuhn: you could put a link to them in the client so you could view them with the new browser thing which seems pretty snappy cmpared to the regular browser
[15:03]  Kooky Jetaime: Jermey - no no bad bad
[15:03]  Saijanai Kuhn: is that a local host file?
[15:03]  Kooky Jetaime: don't let them do it
[15:03]  Kooky Jetaime: Quit trying to move help OUT of the client.
[15:04]  You: It's a matter of trying to get the existing help INTO the client :-)
[15:04]  Kooky Jetaime: if its integral to the client, build it in... some people can't open a browser to look at help when trying to figure out what a button or slider does.
[15:04]  Kitty Barnett: might want to fix the scrolling bug in the in-world browser first :o it's not very useful when you can't scroll
[15:04]  Qie Niangao: oh... hmmm... but sime kind of contextual help is better than none
[15:04]  Saijanai Kuhn: toll tips are built into the user interfacde already
[15:04]  Oscar Feller: really I think mentors and in-world help are the most important on this issue
[15:04]  Qie Niangao: *some
[15:04]  You: Right, but there's an in-client browser now, which should preclude needing to open an external one.
[15:04]  Jon Linden: kooky, the idea is that the little question mark button would open the viewer's internal browser
[15:04]  Kooky Jetaime: I deactivate the internal browser
[15:04]  Kooky Jetaime: and I think a lot of others do too
[15:04]  Qie Niangao: Sai, but terribly incomplete
[15:05]  You: Again, this is a long-term goal we're talking about-- it probably won't resemble any existing functionality.
[15:05]  Saijanai Kuhn: I think some important files, like the current release notes, should be in "local host" so you don't have to wait for a browser connection. Help files could work the same way
[15:05]  You: Hello Drakar. Welcome to the tail end of Documentation Office Hours.
[15:05]  Asriazh Frye: is it true that you guys want to step away from llmozlib2 and rather use something different instead for the inworld browser?
[15:05]  Drakar Brumer: hi
[15:05]  Kooky Jetaime: I seem to remember there used to be an in-browser help (f1) that kind of dissapeared.. now we're trying to go back to it?
[15:05]  Jon Linden: not at all
[15:05]  Kooky Jetaime: that seems a bit..
[15:05]  Kooky Jetaime: I dunno
[15:05]  You: Asriazh, I have no idea...
[15:06]  Kooky Jetaime: granted, most people here probably don't remember in world help system
[15:06]  Trinity Coulter: I do
[15:06]  Kooky Jetaime: It was back around 1.14.x I think
[15:06]  Trinity Coulter: I used to be a part of it
[15:06]  Trinity Coulter: lol
[15:06]  You: As for the "going back to the old F1 help", I'd say "not in the sense that it would be separate from the KB"
[15:06]  Kitty Barnett: it was put in after they close Live Help / Help Request, Kooky
[15:06]  Kooky Jetaime: I thought it was in before that
[15:07]  Tegg Bode: Hmm as long as keeping it in the client isn't bogging the client down, out of the client is better for us with dual monitors I guess, a lot easier to read
[15:07]  Kooky Jetaime: yea
[15:07]  You: Easier to maintain, too!
[15:07]  Kooky Jetaime: but us with dual heads is less than those with decent graphics cards
[15:08]  Kitty Barnett: SL blanks my other monitor so it's not terribly useful anyway :o
[15:08]  You: The more we can consolidate our sources of help information, the less chance there is that some piece will be lost and become hopelessly obsolete.
[15:08]  Jon Linden: something we're working on
[15:08]  Jon Linden: i should note that we're over time on this edition of Documentation Office Hours, and I have some things to get done before the weekend starts, so I must bid you all good afternoon!
[15:09]  Tegg Bode: lol, true, but f1 is one of those common help button links
[15:09]  Trinity Coulter: bye J & J
[15:09]  Qie Niangao: thanks for hosting, Jon, Jeremy
[15:09]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Qie Niangao has pinged you.
[15:09]  Oscar Feller: ok, but my first question?
[15:09]  Jon Linden: feel free to come back next week, everybody! we're here every week at the same time
[15:09]  Asriazh Frye looks at her m&ms at her belt
[15:09]  Trinity Coulter: ask us, Oscar
[15:09]  You: Right, Tegg... but there's no reason that F1 can't open up a view of the contents in the KB :-)
[15:09]  Jon Linden: oscar, what was your first question?
[15:10]  Tegg Bode: Which is what it does anyway :)
[15:10]  Oscar Feller: if their was a Q&A about the new CEO
[15:10]  Oscar Feller: there*
[15:10]  Jon Linden: if there is, i'm not aware of it yet
[15:10]  You: Right.
[15:10]  Mastorian Kingsford: i wish there was a option to stop the invintory window from going transparent every time i do a action i havent seen any way to turn feature off?
[15:10]  Oscar Feller: ok, thank you both
[15:10]  Jon Linden: everybody have a good weekend!
[15:11]  Oscar Feller: you also
[15:11]  You: Also, I checked for you... the response I got from Lindens That Know was to contact Support. Unfortunately I don't think that's the response you were hoping for.
[15:11]  Kooky Jetaime: ® is ALT-0174 ™ is ALT-0153 © is ALT-0169
[15:11]  Igel Hawks: You also Jon and Jeremy
[15:11]  WidgetHUD v1.1: Igel Hawks has pinged you.
[15:11]  Tegg Bode: Oh, it's ove.................... :/
[15:11]  You: Mastorian... maybe in the Debug Settings, but I'm not an expert on all of those.
[15:11]  Kooky Jetaime: wow
[15:11]  Kooky Jetaime: just found a bug
[15:12]  Kooky Jetaime: can't paste into Gesture Descriptions
[15:12]  You: Oh dear.
[15:12]  Saijanai Kuhn: later all
[15:12]  Mastorian Kingsford: k every time i go to drag stuff it does it hard on my eyes even with 19 inch mont :_)
[15:12]  Qie Niangao: bye, Sai
[15:12]  Mastorian Kingsford: have a nice weekend
[15:12]  You: Later! Have a good weekend, all. See you next week!
[15:12]  Becky Pippen: By Jeremy!