Doc Team/2010-04-28

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[13:03] Aargle Zymurgy: hi Fisher
[13:03] Nathan Adored: Helllo Jeremy
[13:03] Nathan Adored has pinged you.
[13:03] Tillie Ariantho: Hello all!
[13:03] Jeremy Linden: Heya!
[13:03] Mojito Sorbet: Flying sometimes fixes that, but not in no-fly zones
[13:03] Skills Hak: hiya
[13:04] Elite Runner: Hi Jeremy Linden
[13:04] Elite Runner has pinged you.
[13:04] Tillie Ariantho: We just got told by a not-to-named Linden that you dont document your stuff well. :P Example: XUI. :P
[13:04] Mojito Sorbet: yes. XUI is impenetrable
[13:05] Jeremy Linden: /me waits for his chair to rez behind him.
[13:05] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: You should bring your own deck of cards, Jeremy.
[13:05] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot has pinged you.
[13:05] Nathan Adored: What is XUI again?
[13:05] Tillie Ariantho: not-to-be-named I meant. ^^
[13:05] Jeremy Linden: Ah. Well, that's tech docs. My team covers user docs, which is largely the viewer as-delivered :-)
[13:05] Kate Linden: Happy Wednesday :)
[13:05] Mojito Sorbet: Files that describe user interface layout and colors
[13:05] Nathan Adored: ah
[13:05] Skills Hak: happy wednesday to you too kate :J
[13:05] Tillie Ariantho: Jeremy: we need it for users who want to customize the UI. ;)
[13:05] Tillie Ariantho has pinged you.
[13:05] Mojito Sorbet: So where is the techdocs OH?
[13:05] Nathan Adored: will that be added to SL2.0 viewer?
[13:05] Kate Linden: Thank you Skills!
[13:05] Elite Runner: Hi Kate Linden
[13:06] Kate Linden: Hey Elite :)
[13:06] Nathan Adored: Hello Kate Linden
[13:06] Kate Linden: Hi Nathan :)
[13:06] Elite Runner: Where is Torley?
[13:06] Skills Hak: torley is late again tsk tsk
[13:06] Kate Linden: I'm not sure if Torley will make it today.
[13:06] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
[13:06] Tillie Ariantho: Yah, you get rrid of us if you tell us who's doing (not) the XUI docs. :P
[13:06] Jeremy Linden: You can find most of the more technical stuff on the wiki. Arbitrary Lindens will put info there, and many very active Residents do too.
[13:06] Arawn Spitteler: /me found mention of Linden Labs, on the internet: I'm sure PR won't be interested in this remake of Animal House... http://www.usnews.com/blogs/paper-trail/2010/04/22/california-college-loses-second-life-for-a-second-time.html
[13:07] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Jeremy, when I see the way some outfits handle UI issue, I blame Kai Krause.
[13:07] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot has pinged you.
[13:07] Skills Hak: oh that article is so full of ......
[13:07] Skills Hak: typical woodbury propaganda
[13:07] Arawn Spitteler: I'm sure the people doing the XUI Docs are very prompt, about attending their office hours 100%, which is to say, nobody never.
[13:08] Arawn Spitteler: The University hasn't been Perma-Banned?
[13:08] Skills Hak: yes they have
[13:08] Nathan Adored: Is Torley Linden coming?
[13:08] Jeremy Linden: Torley can't make it today. Computer problems :-(
[13:08] Nathan Adored: ouch
[13:09] Rex Cronon: for more info also read this: http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/43467-farewell-woodbury-11.html
[13:09] Flenser Juergens: Doesn't have anything to do with tips & tricks but I noticed my options for freeze & eject are active again. Not seen those active for awhile.
[13:09] Qie Niangao: heh. permabans are so... ephemeral
[13:09] Boroondas Gupte: how much of https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Skinning_HowTo/Basics etc. is still accurate for 2.x?
[13:09] Skills Hak: well they had it coming
[13:09] Skills Hak: it was an absolutely correct decision
[13:09] Skills Hak: imho
[13:10] Jeremy Linden: I'm afraid I'm not up-to-date on the accuracy of the skinning instructions on the wiki. As I mentioned earlier, that's a bit more advanced than the stuff this team usually covers.
[13:11] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: We need a stunt Torley.
[13:11] Daniel Voyager: Via Twitter: "torley
I'm sorry I can't be there at Documentation Team office hours today, wrangling computer problems!"
[13:11] Daniel Voyager: http://twitter.com/torley
[13:11] Boroondas Gupte: Who would we have to ask?
[13:11] Kate Linden: Thanks Daniel :)
[13:12] Rex Cronon: is this OH in voice?
[13:12] Flenser Juergens: Glad I didn't lockup completely. Tried to look at website and everything froze till page open in extrernal browser.
[13:13] Nathan Adored: wierd
[13:13] Kate Linden: Rex this OH is in text chat.
[13:13] Rex Cronon: thanks:)
[13:14] Jeremy Linden: Boroondas, it looks like that is a Resident-maintained page, last updated in September. I'd try Q's office hours and ask if skinning has changed significantly with Viewer 2.0. If not, then the page is probably still good :-)
[13:14] Kate Linden: Have you taken a look at the new script info windows on avatar and land?
[13:15] Aargle Zymurgy: I have. it's pretty informative.
[13:15] Ardy Lay: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5598
[13:15] Qie Niangao: yes Kate... lots of good info in those windows
[13:15] Ardy Lay: Yes, totally useless to me.
[13:15] Kate Linden: How so Ardy?
[13:15] Ardy Lay: Read the report. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5598
[13:15] Qie Niangao: oh, that's weird
[13:15] Kate Linden: /me looks
[13:16] Ardy Lay: Maestro Linden helped with the reproduction.
[13:16] Aargle Zymurgy: I'm still looking for ways to reduce scripts. regrettably, there's no equivalent for llGetObjectDesc that will work on a sub-prim, so we're still stuck adding trivial scripts to the subprims to do the job.
[13:16] Ardy Lay: Still, it's just a bug, not a total failure. :-)
[13:17] Ardy Lay: Once that is cleared up it will be very useful to me.
[13:17] Kate Linden: Thanks for the JIRA. I'm going to see Maestro tomorrow and I'll ask him more about it. :)
[13:18] Jeremy Linden: Are any writers here headed to the STC Summit conference next week?
[13:18] Ardy Lay: Thanks for the attention. DEV-48292 seems to be linked.
[13:19] Tillie Ariantho: Whats STC ? :)
[13:19] Tillie Ariantho: Silly Typers Conference?
[13:19] Jeremy Linden: STC is short for Society for Technical Communication. It's a big organization of technical writers like me and Kate :-)
[13:19] Tillie Ariantho: ah
[13:19] Kate Linden: Jeremy and Rand will be presenting at the Society for Technical Communication conference next week :)
[13:19] Kate Linden has pinged you.
[13:20] Jeremy Linden: Yep! We're going to talk about the Viewer Help system, which this team designed and wrote :-)
[13:20] Tillie Ariantho: I actually build code of developers, not document it for the users. :P
[13:20] Jeremy Linden: Well, we didn't program it, but we wrote the content :-P
[13:20] Rex Cronon: so, where can some documentation of the new xml files used to cread the gui:)
[13:21] Nathan Adored: Will tere be a way to design your own GUI system, beyond merely changing the skins?>
[13:21] Rex Cronon: some documentation be found*
[13:21] Rex Cronon: to create the gui*
[13:22] Qie Niangao: hmmm... just noticed the Help menu stays put when the Advanced and Develop menus are added. Odd choice.
[13:22] Jeremy Linden: Rex, I'm not sure. We've been focused on creating help for newer Residents with this release.
[13:22] Jeremy Linden: However, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist! Someone outside the documentation team may have posted updated info on the XML files.
[13:23] Rex Cronon: if u guys that r on the documentation team don't know where such files can be found, how a normal resident find them?
[13:24] Nathan Adored: /me giggles
[13:24] Skills Hak: just give it some time, it's probably not ready for release yet
[13:24] Rex Cronon: how can a *
[13:25] Jeremy Linden: Rex, we represent the Customer Support side of documentation. We're responsible for writing about things you can do with Second Life as-is.
[13:26] Jeremy Linden: Modifying XML files is a bit more advanced than the stuff we usually work on, but because of the nature of wikis, it's possible someone else has posted useful info :-)
[13:26] Flenser Juergens: I'm glad the help screens don't trigger much for advanced users. Hopefully they're providing just what new people need.
[13:26] Rex Cronon: ok. i guess documenting xml files is not part of what your team is responssible
[13:27] Jeremy Linden: Correct, Rex. Sorry for the confusion!
[13:27] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Jeremy, no customer should need to re-write XML to sort out the viewer.
[13:27] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot has pinged you.
[13:27] Jeremy Linden: Exactly, Wolf.
[13:27] Flenser Juergens: I think back on how long it took me to learn everything - I can understand why new folks need the extra help. Cann't chase down Lindens these days for help.
[13:27] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Yet that seems to be one of the standard problem solutions.
[13:29] Skills Hak: well there's not really a huge difference between 2.0 and 1.2x xui
[13:29] Arawn Spitteler: There' a new version for Snowglobe?
[13:29] Nathan Adored: even tho the GUI itself is drastically different?
[13:29] Jeremy Linden: There are so many Residents now, Flenser... We try our best to help everyone help themselves by providing online help. It's not perfect, but it scales better than hiring 20,000 Lindens to keep up with live support :-)
[13:30] Arawn Spitteler: /me still wonders what happened to Volunteer Mentors
[13:30] Flenser Juergens: Yep. I remember long talks with folks like Pathfinder. Cann't even find him online very much anymore.
[13:30] Jeremy Linden: Pathfinder is no longer at Linden Lab :-(
[13:30] Skills Hak: heh
[13:30] Flenser Juergens: aww
[13:31] Skills Hak: but he's still around on pathfinder lester sometimes ;)
[13:31] Kate Linden: We've put together a few programs that provide help areas for Resident self -help or collaboration, such as SL Answers.
[13:31] Arawn Spitteler: Has he a new job, yet?
[13:31] Andy Azov: Hello :)
[13:31] Rex Cronon: hi
[13:31] Kate Linden: The Resident Help Network includes many mentor groups within SL.
[13:32] Arawn Spitteler: There's no help at help island?
[13:32] Daniel Voyager: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Resident_Help_Network_Portal  :)
[13:32] Kate Linden: Thanks Daniel :)
[13:32] Daniel Voyager: welcome!
[13:32] Flenser Juergens: Is still hard to visualise how big SL is today. Can remember the first stress tests of the system - where it was a big deal to have 4,000 people online at once.
[13:33] Daniel Voyager: SL Discovery Island and Welcome Island nowadays....
[13:33] Kate Linden: The Quick Start Guides are located in the viewer sidebar for quick reference, and we've added context-sensitive help to nearly every Viewer 2 window :)
[13:33] Jeremy Linden: Nathan, in response to your question about configurable UI, I've just been cleared to say, "Yes, we'll have it eventually." :-)
[13:33] Nathan Adored: :D
[13:34] Arawn Spitteler: Quick Start Guides aren't thesame, as people who know people who might know something.
[13:34] Skills Hak: are there any guides planned in regards to the TPVP?
[13:34] Jeremy Linden: TPVP?
[13:34] Skills Hak: might be a bit late now actually heh
[13:34] Tillie Ariantho: Hm, I see "EDIT" and "Do not edit, this is being translated" at the same time. :P
[13:34] Skills Hak: the third party viewer policy
[13:34] Skills Hak: it confused alot of people and it might get worse on the 30th
[13:35] Kate Linden: Tillie, when there are dual notices on an article, it is due to a transcluded article with it's own status showing as well.
[13:35] Second Life: Now leaving god mode, level 200
[13:35] Arawn Spitteler: Transcluded?
[13:35] Tillie Ariantho: Kate: this is all pages on the wiki?
[13:35] Kate Linden: Skills, I don't know that we have Quick Start Guides on the horizon for policies.
[13:35] Kate Linden: Tillie, that is with viewerhelp pages.
[13:35] Boroondas Gupte: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Transclusion
[13:36] Tillie Ariantho: So bundled with the client? a ha.
[13:36] Kate Linden: We don't use status templates with our KB articles.
[13:36] Kate Linden: What you are seeing are just status templates in viewerhelp articles :)
[13:37] Kate Linden: (At least that's what it sounds like from what you've asked.)
[13:38] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Jeremy, I keep seeing you vanish.
[13:38] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot has pinged you.
[13:38] Jeremy Linden: Tillie, did you see those messages in the Viewer when you clicked a help button?
[13:39] Jeremy Linden: I'm vanishing? :-O
[13:39] Jeremy Linden: When I logged in today, I was a naked Ruth. I suppose vanishing is better than that :-X
[13:39] Nathan Adored: A NAKED ruth?!?!?
[13:39] Arawn Spitteler: Grey, just like old times?
[13:39] Flenser Juergens: Sounds like a job for Viewer 2 Beta - took a while to load textures here but no problems seeing everyone now.
[13:40] Jeremy Linden: Not gray, I was actually the default skin tone. It was a bug report waiting to happen.
[13:40] Nathan Adored: eek
[13:40] Rex Cronon: tc everybody
[13:41] Qie Niangao: Jeremy, same thing happened to me last week sometime. Just like old times.
[13:41] Qie Niangao has pinged you.
[13:41] Kate Linden: There is a new tag for avatar clouds in Viewer 2.01 that says "[Loading...]" .
[13:41] Jeremy Linden: Oh, yes! Thanks for pointing that out, Kate.
[13:42] Kate Linden: I believe you can see it in 2.0 on someone loading in 2.01.
[13:42] Jeremy Linden: I'm also noticing context-sensitive icons for click actions when I hover my mouse over objects.
[13:42] WolfBaginski Bearsfoot: Never mind, Kate, the next step is to start using a powder horn
[13:43] Jeremy Linden: /me sees Qie as (Loading...)
[13:43] Kate Linden: Loading time varies for different people depending on their system, bandwidth, region, and all things that can affect performance.
[13:43] Derek Galaxy: is getting stuck in edit mode still a bug? or is it just me?
[13:43] Nathan Adored: powder horn?
[13:44] Kate Linden: It's helpful to some people to understand that a cloud avatar is someone who is still loading. :)
[13:44] Arawn Spitteler: Powder Horns are for loading the muzzle loader muskets.
[13:44] Jeremy Linden: Derek, I'ved noticed that a couple times. Are you able to get out of edit mode by entering it again and then exiting?
[13:44] Derek Galaxy: sometimes, sometimes i have to click the land or sky to un-highlite things
[13:45] Kate Linden: Derek is that happening in 2.01?
[13:45] Derek Galaxy: also happens when inspecting things
[13:45] Derek Galaxy: um.. im in the most recent kiristins now
[13:45] Derek Galaxy: i dont remember if its in 2.01 lol
[13:46] Kate Linden: s/Is/Was
[13:46] Flenser Juergens: I didn't have any troubles last night after upgrading but am seeing annoying selectstoday.
[13:46] Flenser Juergens: Assumed it was trouble with sims I was in.
[13:46] Derek Galaxy: all i know is i've seen it in all 2.0 viewers i've tried, idk if its in 2.01 specifically
[13:47] Tillie Ariantho: Derek: I am in 2.0.1 right now and the outlining sticks with an item, I only need to rightclick it.
[13:47] Tillie Ariantho: Then i see a glowing frame, and it doesnt vanish even after deselecting the item.
[13:47] Derek Galaxy: yes thats what i get
[13:47] Tillie Ariantho: It was reported loooong ago, still not fixed it seems.
[13:48] Jeremy Linden: /me watches the particle poofs all over the place as people select things.
[13:48] Derek Galaxy: lol
[13:48] Kate Linden: Do you have a JIRA #?
[13:48] Tillie Ariantho: looking for it
[13:49] Kate Linden: Thanks Tillie
[13:49] Tillie Ariantho: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-16993
[13:49] Tillie Ariantho: "When I click on an object in-world it stays highlighted (like a selection-highlight)."
[13:50] Ardy Lay: Yeow, can't deselect the barrel
[13:50] Tillie Ariantho: 71 votes.
[13:50] Kate Linden: Thanks Tillie
[13:50] Tillie Ariantho: unassigned. :P
[13:50] Derek Galaxy:
[13:50] Derek Galaxy: will be 72 soon
[13:50] Ardy Lay: Have to click myself to deselect the object.
[13:50] Tillie Ariantho: But has an issue ID: EXT-4128
[13:50] Arawn Spitteler: Has it become reproducible?
[13:51] Tillie Ariantho: It is pretty much reproducable. Rightclick something and then hit Esc to deselect the item
[13:51] Ardy Lay: Object Profile + Details seems to stick it too.
[13:51] Tillie Ariantho: simple rightclick is all you need to get stuck with it.
[13:52] Ardy Lay: Even just click the i ... the inspector to get stuck.
[13:52] Kate Linden: It doesn't happen for me in V 2.0.0
[13:52] Ardy Lay: ESC does not deselect.
[13:52] Arawn Spitteler: You didn't have to upgrade to 2.0.1?
[13:53] Ardy Lay: Using Second Life 2.0.1 (203797)
[13:53] Kate Linden: I have downloaded 2.01.
[13:53] Derek Galaxy: i find myself tapping esc several times before i realise is isnt going to deslest lol
[13:54] Kate Linden: I can't repro it but other Residents have mentioned this as well.
[13:54] Ardy Lay: Every release of V2 has this problem.
[13:55] Kate Linden: When you put an object in edit, then close the edit window, the object remains selected?
[13:55] Identity Euler: I can confirm it was like this in 2.0.0
[13:56] Derek Galaxy: even if you just right click it sometimes
[13:56] Kate Linden: I've seen a screenshot of it too. I just can't repro it lol
[13:56] Ardy Lay: Kate, be specific, how are you putting an object in edit and how are you closing the edit window?
[13:56] Tillie Ariantho: I only need to rightclick anything to get the context menu, and then I am stuck with it.
[13:56] Flenser Juergens: And the Knowledge Bear remains selected after I buy one.
[13:56] Flenser Juergens: Clicked on myself and it cleared.
[13:57] Kate Linden: Does your avatar arm remain in selection position?
[13:57] Tillie Ariantho: no
[13:57] Flenser Juergens: Not right now since I'm sitting but is that way rest of time.
[13:57] Derek Galaxy: mine usually dose
[13:57] Ardy Lay: Right-click, select Edit, "X" widget to close Edit window, hight remains and arm is still pointing at selected object.
[13:57] Tillie Ariantho: ah yes. I am still pointing at it.
[13:58] Tillie Ariantho: only my AO hid it. ^^
[13:58] Ardy Lay: Highlight is yellow and blue.
[13:58] Kate Linden: Does ctrl-E deselect it?
[13:58] Ardy Lay: Click my own avatar mesh to release object.
[13:58] Ardy Lay: Yes, Control-E releases the object.
[13:59] Tillie Ariantho: Yes, for me Ctrl-E works. So it seems to be an edit-mode without open-edit window. ^^
[13:59] Kate Linden: Thanks for your feedback :)

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