Doc Team/2010-07-21

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Transcript

[12:59] Kate Linden: The region stats look good, and my client FPS is high. What is your client FPS?
[12:59] Jeremy Linden: Whoa, there's a Kate here!
[13:00] Daniel Voyager: hey everyone
[13:00] Kate Linden: Advanced > Performance Tools > Statistics Bar
[13:00] Jeremy Linden: Hi Daniel. Welcome back!
[13:00] Nathan Adored: how do I check client FPS again?
[13:00] Daniel Voyager: hey Jeremy and Kate
[13:00] Daniel Voyager has pinged you.
[13:00] Kate Linden: Hey Jeremy!
[13:00] Kate Linden has pinged you.
[13:00] Daniel Voyager: nice to be back in SL :D
[13:00] Kate Linden: Daniel Hi!
[13:00] Daniel Voyager: been busy :D
[13:00] Jeremy Linden: If you press Ctrl+Shift+1 you can open the STATISTICS bar.
[13:01] Kate Linden: Your client FPS is the top # - Basic FPS
[13:01] Nathan Adored: 9.1 FPS here
[13:01] Kate Linden: That's pretty low. If you open the lag meter, do you show lag for client or network?
[13:02] Kate Linden: (It's also under performance tools)
[13:02] Jeremy Linden: 13-ish on my GeForce 9800 GT
[13:02] Jeremy Linden: I run at Ultra settings, though.
[13:02] Daniel Voyager: My FPS is around 30
[13:02] Kate Linden: I'm running between 35 and 45 FPS
[13:03] Kate Linden: Hi Sirius
[13:03] Nathan Adored: So, Jeremy Linden, hows everything been lately?
[13:03] Nathan Adored has pinged you.
[13:03] Jeremy Linden: Busy busy busy. When I'm not busy, that is.
[13:03] Nathan Adored: heh
[13:04] Jeremy Linden: We've had some good conversations at this office hour the past few weeks, especially about how the wiki is becoming hard to search due to all the office hours chatlogs.
[13:04] Jeremy Linden: ...which is oddly circular.
[13:04] Nathan Adored: LOL
[13:05] Jeremy Linden: I'm surprised so few people showed up this week!
[13:06] Daniel Voyager: Yeah, normally it gets packed around here. lol
[13:06] Sirius Selona: This is my first time to a doc office hour. Looking forward to coming as often as possible.
[13:06] Kate Linden: We're glad you could join us Sirius!
[13:06] Sirius Selona: thank you :)
[13:06] Nathan Adored: how many were here last week? I got mixed as to what day it was (for some reason, Tueday I thought it was Wednesday.... and Wednesday I thought it was Thursday.....) so missed it
[13:07] Daniel Voyager: I think many are still at Nyx Linden office hours
[13:07] Jeremy Linden: Doh! The couches each had a few people on them, plus some of the barrels. How many is that, maybe a few more than 10?
[13:07] Nathan Adored: what sorts of things are discussed there?
[13:08] Jeremy Linden: I imagine Nyx discusses various appearance and graphics-related issues, but I can't say for sure.
[13:08] Kate Linden: Doc Team handles help documentation in the form of Viewer Help, the Knowledge Base, Quick Start Guides and Tips N Tricks :)
[13:08] Jeremy Linden: (for now!)
[13:08] lufpleh Obstreperous: expect will be talking a lot about avatar attachment points
[13:08] Nathan Adored: /me wonders why everyone seems to be popping in in mid air here today. oO
[13:08] Kate Linden: Ooops I should have read your question better Nathan lol.
[13:08] Aargle Zymurgy: today's Nyx meeting was a bit of a free-for-all. I think he got picked on a little too hard.
[13:09] Daniel Voyager: Content Creation Tips, Tricks, and Techniques - at Nyx Linden office hours
[13:09] Daniel Voyager: hehe
[13:09] Nathan Adored: hmmm..... are there posted transcripts of the Nyx meetings like there are the DocTeam meetings?
[13:10] Aargle Zymurgy: not sure. probably. today's was just a gripe-fest, unfortunately.
[13:10] Jeremy Linden: Maybe... We're not required to post the transcripts, but I like to keep a record of what we discuss.
[13:10] Sirius Selona: The wikis seem to all be different ages and styles. Will you eventually organize them better over time?
[13:10] Daniel Voyager: remembers the old knowlege base
[13:10] Jeremy Linden: Sirius, do you mean just the chatlogs, or everything in the wiki?
[13:10] lufpleh Obstreperous: /me thinks it would be wise for every Linden OH to post trascripts to avoid the FIC argument
[13:11] Sirius Selona: I mean the wikis I find in Google search. :)
[13:11] Nathan Adored: Ah, ppl are straggling in. Hello Techwolf
[13:12] Jeremy Linden: Ah. I suppose that depends on who wrote the articles you find. Doc Team (me and Kate, mostly) is responsible for lots of the informational articles in the wiki, but not all of them.
[13:12] Jeremy Linden: Hm. Wrong word, I think. Me is responsible! :-P
[13:12] Nathan Adored: er...... byebye Tecchwolf. Oo
[13:12] Daniel Voyager: There is a nice collection of photos of previous doc team office hours http://www.flickr.com/groups/docteam/ - always my favourite :D
[13:12] Sirius Selona: I see. Although I've been in sl since 5/30/09, I'm just learning about the doc aspect.
[13:13] Daniel Voyager: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Doc_team
[13:13] Nathan Adored: I've been coiming to the DocTeam OH off and on for months
[13:13] Kate Linden: Sirius have you taken a look at Viewer Help? (Just click the "?" on a viewer window.)
[13:13] Nathan Adored: And I can't bloomin' type today. :D
[13:13] Jeremy Linden: Anyway, we're currently in the process of trying to invent a better way to organize the information in the wiki so that it's easier to find what you're looking for. That might mean merging or deleting duplicate and useless articles to help cut down on the "noise".
[13:13] Sirius Selona: Ok, I'll do that now.
[13:14] Kate Linden: I'm interested in your feedback if you want to share, this week or next, after you've had time to check out the Viewer Help articles. :)
[13:15] Daniel Voyager: hey xstorm
[13:15] Sirius Selona: I'm grateful to have an opportunity to provide feedback. :)
[13:15] xstorm Radek: hi hi :-)
[13:15] Kate Linden: Thank you Sirius :)
[13:16] xstorm Radek: come sit Daniel :-)
[13:16] Daniel Voyager: haha :D
[13:17] xstorm Radek: hey do not tell any one but im working on a secret
[13:17] Jeremy Linden: It's not a secret if you tell everyone! :-O
[13:17] Aargle Zymurgy: xstorm, you look like your typing isat about 300wpm
[13:17] Nathan Adored: izzit one of those "If I told you what it ws I'd haffta kill you" things? :D
[13:17] Kate Linden: xstorm, we post our office hour transcripts on the wiki :)
[13:17] xstorm Radek: eeeppp spys your all spys
[13:18] Sirius Selona: What are the types of topics normally discussed at this OH?
[13:18] Bronson Blackadder: tips and tricks to better your experience
[13:18] xstorm Radek: the KB and its errors
[13:18] Nathan Adored: documentation-team stuff
[13:18] Bronson Blackadder: if you have any please feel free to drop it out there
[13:19] Jeremy Linden: We try to talk about Second Life help docs like the wiki and online help, but we get sidetracked sometimes :-)
[13:19] lufpleh Obstreperous: a structured Linden index of approved wiki pages
[13:19] xstorm Radek: oh that reminds me
[13:19] Sirius Selona: if an index doesn't exist, it should
[13:19] Nathan Adored: Bronson, you're a cloud.
[13:19] Jeremy Linden: Hm. We have one of those, Iufpleh.
[13:19] Jeremy Linden: More or less...
[13:19] Bronson Blackadder: clown?
[13:19] Bronson Blackadder: yes I am
[13:19] Aargle Zymurgy: good stuff like "Press Alt-F4 and then Enter very quickly for free L$"
[13:20] Jeremy Linden: http://secondlife.com/kb
[13:20] xstorm Radek: the KB needs a better search tree and a button to stop the Ontyne from using the KB lol
[13:20] Nathan Adored: cloud cloud cloud. you're a hovering white vapor.
[13:20] Sirius Selona: Bronson isn't a cloud to me. :)
[13:20] Bronson Blackadder: oh hold on I'll see if I can fix that
[13:20] Nathan Adored: Ain't technology wunnerful? :D
[13:20] xstorm Radek: he looks fine to me
[13:20] Jeremy Linden: Heh! We're working on re-organizing the top level to make it easier to drill down to the articles you want. No comment on the Ontynes.
[13:20] Kate Linden: Bronson looks rezzed to me :)
[13:21] xstorm Radek: lol
[13:21] Nathan Adored: Ah, now he's rezzed..... sorta.
[13:21] xstorm Radek: ok
[13:21] Bronson Blackadder: just had to edit myself and hit ctrl alt R a zillion times
[13:21] Bronson Blackadder: works most of the time
[13:21] Daniel Voyager: hmm, interesting > http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/07/21/changes-to-burning-life
[13:22] Aargle Zymurgy: oh, I've got a question for you guys.... what's up with the sim Grasmere?
[13:22] xstorm Radek: ok so no comment on the Ontyne but can i ask if they have been train to handle 3D social networks and its many forms of communitys with in it ?
[13:23] Nathan Adored: They renamed Burning Life?? oO
[13:23] xstorm Radek: yes copy right rules lol
[13:24] Jeremy Linden: I don't really know enough to talk about the Ontynes, xstorm... and I'm not sure I'd be allowed to even if I did know :-/
[13:24] Aargle Zymurgy: I ask about Grasmere because it came up as a fix for one of my customer's problems.
[13:24] Daniel Voyager: "Burning Life will be renamed BURN 2.0."
[13:24] xstorm Radek: its ok Jeremy :-) im just poking fun at them a little
[13:24] xstorm Radek has pinged you.
[13:24] Sirius Selona: If Torley isn't with this team anymore, will someone else take over doing all those wonderful video tutorials?
[13:24] Nathan Adored: /me rolls his eyes skyward.
[13:25] Kate Linden: My office is in Grasmere and the region runs well each time I'm there.
[13:25] xstorm Radek: Torley is still around
[13:25] Jeremy Linden: Torley is still making video tutorials, and he'll even be coming to this office hour occasionally... he's just officially moved to another public-facing team.
[13:25] xstorm Radek: he is very very over worked
[13:26] Sirius Selona: Oh, that's good. His tutorials are an invaluable resource and one of the best public relations tools SL/LL has
[13:26] Aargle Zymurgy: well, I'll show you what my customer was told
[13:26] Aargle Zymurgy: Hi Please log onto your account and follow these instructions This should resolve your issue. 1. Close Second Life. 2. Open the Second Life viewer, (not any Third party viewer.) 3. Clear Cashe (Viewer 1.23) Go to edit > Preferences > Network > Clear cache. (Clear Cashe Viewer 2) Me > Preferences > Setup tab Click on the Reset button under Network 4. Then, go to Edit > Preferences > General and check Show Start Location on Login Screen. Hit OK to close, then close Second Life and open it again 5. Type Grasmere into the start location field, below where you put your name, and log in. 6. You'll be in Grasmere, probably underwater. Dont TP out, just stay there for a few. After about 2 minutes, open your inventory, and check to see what the count is. Please feel free to contact us again in the future if you have any further problems/queries. Kind Regards, Glass OT Linden Lab Support
[13:26] Jeremy Linden: I'll pass that along, Sirius. I'm sure he'll love to hear it!
[13:26] xstorm Radek: lol
[13:26] Aargle Zymurgy: this was proposed as a fix for that nasty coalesced object bug
[13:26] Nathan Adored: What the frak?!?!? :D :D :D
[13:26] Sirius Selona: Thank you Jeremy. :)
[13:26] Sirius Selona has pinged you.
[13:27] xstorm Radek: what person told you that ?
[13:28] Jeremy Linden: Huh. I wonder if whoever wrote that used Grasmere just because it's largely a public place.
[13:28] Aargle Zymurgy: just one of my customers passing that on to me
[13:28] Sirius Selona: What are the current two or three top documentation projects, if you are able to let us know?
[13:28] xstorm Radek: must have
[13:28] Aargle Zymurgy: CG and I were the ones who found and figured out the problem and CG created an internal fix, but he didn't get that little tip at all.
[13:28] Nathan Adored: So, what is special about logging in at Grasmere that fixes this bug that is defferent from loggin in at.... say.... Phantasien?
[13:28] xstorm Radek: there is very little wrong with that sim
[13:28] Aargle Zymurgy: I know... that's what I can't figure out.
[13:29] xstorm Radek: and it can not fix a real bug
[13:29] Kate Linden: Grasmere may just be a low lag region.
[13:29] xstorm Radek: try one of the sims thats just a sea
[13:29] Jeremy Linden: I'm not sure how much we can say about our current projects, but we're definitely trying to keep up with the Viewer 2.1 beta while we try to line up with the company's new "do less and do it better" philosophy.
[13:29] Aargle Zymurgy: CG said something about a few things better there. but I think the above advice was just a way to get a properly refreshed inventory fix
[13:30] Sirius Selona: can you expand on what "do less" means?
[13:30] Aargle Zymurgy: Jeremy, that is actually good policy. if you get trying to do too much at once, you get nothing done.
[13:30] Aargle Zymurgy has pinged you.
[13:30] Jeremy Linden: I'll see if I can find the official explanation on the blogs... But essentially there were too many projects. So many, we couldn't do any of them very well.
[13:31] xstorm Radek: brb damn power pole was just hit by lightning
[13:31] Sirius Selona: I see. Yes, it is smart policy to focus on fewer projects and do them well.
[13:31] Kate Linden: http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/07/16/update-on-strategy-and-call-for-in-world-meeting
[13:32] Nathan Adored: speaking of the 2.1 beta..... I saw a thing somewhere that showed it would allow you to wear multiple items on the same attachment point. Say, several overlapping shirts at the shirt layer. How does this handle it compared with the way Emerald handles its duplicate attachment points?
[13:32] Sirius Selona: Thank you Kate. :)
[13:32] Kate Linden: You're welcome :)
[13:32] Aargle Zymurgy: having done a couple projects of the scope of SL, I can tell you that's hit me before and I could see it happening here.
[13:33] Aargle Zymurgy: duty calls. gotta run. Jeremy and Kate, thanks for taking time for us. bye everyone
[13:33] Aargle Zymurgy has pinged you.
[13:33] Sirius Selona: bye
[13:33] Jeremy Linden: Nathan, I'm afraid I have absolutely no knowledge of Emerald, much less how its texture rendering compares to the official viewer.
[13:35] Jeremy Linden: Sorry to kill the mood? :-P
[13:35] Bronson Blackadder: .me wishes people would stop using that viewer
[13:35] Sirius Selona: I can tell you that because multiple attachment points is not supported in the official viewer (yet?), things attached at the extra points in Emerald look strange to people not using Emerald.
[13:35] Bronson Blackadder: Sirius you are right
[13:35] Jeremy Linden: So I've been told, Sirius.
[13:35] Bronson Blackadder: alot of attachments dont even appear near the AV
[13:35] Bronson Blackadder: just float in the air
[13:36] Sirius Selona: That's true. They do just appear to float in the air.
[13:36] Nathan Adored: Well, Emerald has a, frex, Spine atachment point, like usual, and a seperate Spine 2 attachement point, handled and named as such in its internal XML file. Was wondering if the 2.1 viewer did something similar, or if it just quietly says "Ah, another item wants to be attached to Spine, I'll just apply that on top of the item already attached to Spine."
[13:36] xstorm Radek: there is a fix for that do not use emrald
[13:36] Sirius Selona: But I really am here for the SL docs discussion.
[13:37] Jeremy Linden: Nathan, that actually sounds like something Nyx might be able to answer at his office hour.
[13:37] Bronson Blackadder: Nathan the 2.1 viewer will be able to add to a already filled slot
[13:37] Nathan Adored: Where is that located?
[13:37] Laurent Bechir: xstorm; what kinud of fix ?
[13:37] Jeremy Linden: Wednesdays at 1pm at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Borrowdale/74/217/32?title=Nyx%20Linden's%20Office
[13:37] Bronson Blackadder: its not fully supported server side yet untill 1,40 is fully on teh grid
[13:38] Bronson Blackadder: its off by default right now
[13:38] Jeremy Linden: Er, whoops.
[13:38] Jeremy Linden: Wednesdays at 12pm at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Borrowdale/74/217/32?title=Nyx%20Linden's%20Office
[13:38] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[13:38] Jeremy Linden: Ends at 1pm, when this office hour starts.
[13:38] Bronson Blackadder: or were you asking about Nyxs OH
[13:38] Bronson Blackadder: yes
[13:39] Jeremy Linden: For a mostly-complete listing of Linden office hours, check out http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
[13:39] Nathan Adored: ty
[13:39] Sirius Selona: Is there any reasonably complete listing or index of SL docs?
[13:40] Sirius Selona: avaialble to residents, that is
[13:40] Jeremy Linden: Most of the docs we've written can be found on the wiki at http://secondlife.com/kb
[13:40] Sirius Selona: thank you Jeremy
[13:40] Sirius Selona has pinged you.
[13:41] Jeremy Linden: And you can actually access the in-viewer help content in the Viewerhelp: namespace on the wiki, but I think it's locked to non-Lindens.
[13:41] Sirius Selona: What I've always done when I've had a question is go to Google, type "Second LIfe," then a phrase
[13:41] Sirius Selona: I usually find the wikis and other info that way
[13:41] Jeremy Linden: Ah.
[13:41] Kate Linden: There are several help doc resources, such as Viewer Help, the Quick Start Guide, the KB, and also Torley's videos. While we bring the KB up to date, we'll look at bringing help docs together.
[13:42] Kate Linden: I'm interested to know which help resources you use first when you need information.
[13:42] Jeremy Linden: If you go directly to http://wiki.secondlife.com and use the search there, it'll search using our own Google search appliance, which has been tweaked to try to search the wiki better than "normal" Google.
[13:42] Sirius Selona: I own two homestead sims with some rentals on them. Have learned much just by helping tenants and their friends solve problems.
[13:43] Sirius Selona: But it's hit or miss. I would love a way to zero in on subjects quickly
[13:43] Sirius Selona: Thanks Jeremy. That's good to know
[13:43] Sirius Selona has pinged you.
[13:43] Sirius Selona: Kate, I always use Google
[13:44] xstorm Radek: ok i have to log off the storm has gotten very bad
[13:44] Jeremy Linden: We're working on trying to improve that, Sirius. With luck, we'll be able to group most of the useful wiki articles into better categories.
[13:44] Kate Linden: Do you search google from the Viewer or go to your external browser?
[13:44] xstorm Radek: CT is getting hit hard
[13:44] Sirius Selona: And the Torley videos when I can find one that speaks to the question I have at the moment.
[13:44] xstorm Radek: look out in Boston your next
[13:44] Jeremy Linden: I also have ideas for how to remove chatlogs from search results, based on feedback I received here. That might take some time, though.
[13:44] Jeremy Linden: Oy, xstorm, I see it on the radar.
[13:44] xstorm Radek: laterz every one
[13:45] xstorm Radek: our power is gone
[13:45] xstorm Radek: laterz
[13:46] Kate Linden: Is anyone here going to SLCC this year?
[13:46] Sirius Selona: Kate, I go to my external browser. Never use a browser inside SL.
[13:46] Jeremy Linden: /me raises hand.
[13:46] Kate Linden: Me too!
[13:46] Jeremy Linden: Heh. I have no excuse not to go. It's a 30 minute drive from my house :-X
[13:47] Sirius Selona: What is SLCC?
[13:47] Nathan Adored: presumably there'd be a way to search JUST the chatlogs, too, right?
[13:47] Jeremy Linden: SLCC is the yearly Second Life Community Convention.
[13:47] Sirius Selona: Oh yes, I want to go to that also. Has it been schedule yet?
[13:47] Kate Linden: Lets say you want to learn how to join a group. If you go to google and search, and get results from the wiki, blogs, sl answers, videos - which resource are you likely to look at for the answer first?
[13:47] Daniel Voyager: Philip Rosedale to Keynote the Second Life Community Convention 2010 > http://www.slconvention.org/speakers/philip-rosedale-to-keynote-the-second-life-community-convention-2010/
[13:47] Jeremy Linden: http://www.slconvention.org/
[13:48] Kate Linden: Yes Sirius, It's being held mid-August.
[13:48] Sirius Selona: Ok, to answer your question, Kate, I would go to Google and type Second Life join group
[13:48] Daniel Voyager: Second Life Community Convention in Boston on Saturday morning, August 14th, at 8AM EST/5AM PST.
[13:48] Sirius Selona: Usually the first or second item that comes up is one that tells me what I need to know
[13:49] Kate Linden: Thanks Sirius!
[13:49] Sirius Selona: you're very welcome :)
[13:49] Kate Linden: You guys are terrific with feedback. It's really helpful. :)
[13:50] Kate Linden: guys and gals
[13:50] Sirius Selona: If my experience so far in SL is any indication, I believe most people don't make use of these resources, not even Google. They ask other residents for help.
[13:51] Nathan Adored: Course, then you run into those "Am I your ****ing Google?!??" types. Heh
[13:51] Kate Linden: That makes sense too. Did you find the Viewer itself helpful when you first joined SL? Was it intuitive?
[13:51] Sirius Selona: Yeah, although I don't get that very often. These days I'm the person others in my acquaintence go to for help now.
[13:51] Nathan Adored:
[13:52] Sirius Selona: But I was very fortunate when I first joined. I met someone who was an excellent mentor.
[13:52] Nathan Adored: Yeah, I'm kinda like that too. Well, mostly on one f the OpenSim grids I hang out on a lot
[13:52] Sirius Selona: I have over 20 years experience in information systems, mostly mainframe, so I had no trouble learning the viewer.
[13:52] Sirius Selona: I still prefer 1.23 to the new viewer.
[13:53] Kate Linden: Hello manu :)
[13:53] manu Cheren: hello
[13:53] Kate Linden: Welcome to the Documentation Team office hour. Feel free to join us :)
[13:54] Sirius Selona: But from my experience helping tenants and newbies, a lot of people muddle through without ever learning a great deal about any viewer.
[13:54] Laurent Bechir: Since it was the first time I was using this kind of software, it's difficult to say if it was intuitive or not. I guess I'm more able to tell now with experience.
[13:55] Laurent Bechir: I prefer 2.0 :)
[13:55] Kate Linden: Have you tried the 2.1 Beta Laurent?
[13:55] Bronson Blackadder: for serious work I still use 1.23
[13:55] Laurent Bechir: I'm using it now.
[13:55] Jeremy Linden: You only use Viewer 2 for funny business? :-P
[13:55] Bronson Blackadder: but 2.1 is now usable enough for me to be a day-to-day viewer
[13:56] Bronson Blackadder: attending OH is funny business
[13:56] Bronson Blackadder: so for this, 2.1 works well enough
[13:56] Jeremy Linden: "Why did the avatar cross the road?"
[13:56] Bronson Blackadder: building I still use 1.23
[13:56] Laurent Bechir: I'm not sure it's a good idea to remove the menus in the My inventory panel
[13:57] Sirius Selona: why DID the avatar cross the road, hehehe
[13:57] Nathan Adored: "Was it tethered to the chicken?"
[13:57] Bronson Blackadder: jeremy... to get to the adult parcel on the other side
[13:57] Bronson Blackadder has pinged you.
[13:57] Jeremy Linden: "Because there was a region border down the middle and he couldn't stop himself!"
[13:57] Sirius Selona: hahahaha
[13:57] Nathan Adored: ouch! LOL
[13:57] Bronson Blackadder: good one jeremy
[13:57] Bronson Blackadder has pinged you.
[13:58] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[13:58] Time Minder: You have been online for 1 hours.
[13:58] Jeremy Linden: Hope I don't get roasted too badly for that one.
[13:58] Daniel Voyager: lol
[13:58] Laurent Bechir: besides that there are a lot of nice things, like the possibility not to resize the display when opening the sidebar
[13:58] Sirius Selona: nope, fun is job #1 :)
[13:58] Bronson Blackadder: sounds like many places in zindra
[13:58] Bronson Blackadder: border down the middle of the road
[13:59] Sirius Selona: I haven't tried 2.0 yet. Watched the Torley videos, though.
[13:59] Laurent Bechir: I was always fixing that with a xml file with viewer 2.0
[13:59] Bronson Blackadder: 2.x has a great possibility for customization
[13:59] Bronson Blackadder: like the buttons on the lower task bar as an example
[14:00] Kate Linden: Also if you right-click the bottom bar you can enable favorite buttons.

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