Doc Team/2010-12-15

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[13:02] Adamburp Adamczyk: and here is our host
[13:02] Adamburp Adamczyk: hey jeremy
[13:02] Adamburp Adamczyk has pinged you.
[13:02] Jeremy Linden: Eh?
[13:02] Aargle Zymurgy: yay! hey jeremy
[13:02] Aargle Zymurgy has pinged you.
[13:02] There he is. :) Hi Jeremy
[13:02] Qie Niangao has pinged you.
[13:02] Jeremy Linden: Hello, everyone!
[13:02] Adamburp Adamczyk: yo jeremy
[13:02] Adamburp Adamczyk has pinged you.
[13:02] Jeremy Linden: Someone keeps changing my chair...
[13:03]
[13:03] Adamburp Adamczyk: /me hopes jeremy got my offline im
[13:03] Adamburp Adamczyk has pinged you.
[13:03] Jeremy Linden: I did, Adam.
[13:03] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): Yo :)
[13:03] Adamburp Adamczyk: YAY! (yay!)
[13:03] Adamburp Adamczyk: 'nuff said, no commenet needed
[13:04] Jeremy Linden: Righto.
[13:04] Jeremy Linden: How is everyone this week?
[13:04] Aargle Zymurgy: I'm doing well... a bit stressed though
[13:04] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): not too shabby thanks, and you?
[13:04] Aargle Zymurgy: is there an agenda today?
[13:04] Jeremy Linden: Looking forward to a little vacation, but I've got a heap of work to finish before then :-)
[13:04] Jeremy Linden: No set agenda today, Aargle.
[13:05] Aargle Zymurgy: good... may I request a docuemtation addition?
[13:05] Aargle Zymurgy: it relates to some of the stress I had last week.
[13:05] Jeremy Linden: Though we're kicking around the idea of starting to structure this office hour a bit more to focus on some upcoming... uh, documentation-related developments.
[13:05] Adamburp Adamczyk: jeremy, i have one question, i'd like to im it if i may, it;s more "unofficial"
[13:05] Adamburp Adamczyk has pinged you.
[13:05] Jeremy Linden: Hm. Aargle first, since his is doc-related, but sure, adam.
[13:05] Aargle Zymurgy: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetRemoteScriptAccessPin
[13:05] Adamburp Adamczyk: fair enough, thank you :0
[13:05] Aargle Zymurgy: that page
[13:06] Aargle Zymurgy: in the caveats or maybe even deep notes.....
[13:06] you can edit that yourself, can't you, Aargle?
[13:06] Aargle Zymurgy: whispers: can I?
[13:06] Aargle Zymurgy: can I?
[13:06] Jeremy Linden: Yeah, anything that's not protected or "Linden Lab Official" is open to anyone who has an SL account.
[13:06] what happened to this page?
[13:07] I swear this used to have tons more info in it
[13:07] Aargle Zymurgy: hm... it's missing examples on it
[13:07] Aargle Zymurgy: well, I ran into a problem with that stupid call... some noob scripters just figured there's no harm in changing the pin on someone else's creation.
[13:07] maybe I was thinking of the article on the lslwiki or something)
[13:08] Jeremy Linden: In fact, almost the whole LSL section of the wiki is Resident-maintained. I think the last thing I added was a correction to some Shared Media stuff (since someone managed to add the LSL functions before we released Shared Media)
[13:08] Aargle Zymurgy: when those got sold to my customers.... they didn't know that the update PIN permanently damaged the ability to update MY scripts
[13:08] Aargle Zymurgy: and with JP and the g-team bearing down on my customers to get updates, it became a crisis of biblical proportions. :-/
[13:08] Random Person: hello
[13:09] Jeremy Linden: Hello Random. Nice costume.
[13:09] s no way to "lock" the PIN on a modifiable object.
[13:09] Random Person: thanks
[13:09] Random Person: still rezzin'
[13:09] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Make a note in the Readme file?
[13:10] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): "Count not unto four, for four is too much more."
[13:11] Jeremy Linden: Hm. I understand your grief, Aargle. Is the ability to modify the page enough answer to your question?
[13:11] Aargle Zymurgy: LOL... yes
[13:12] Aargle Zymurgy: I'm just trying to figure out how to add my contribution
[13:12] Jeremy Linden: Very cool.
[13:13] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): What's with the new Terms of Use? We got a new Viewer 2, at the same time, so I couldn't tell if that bug was fixed.
[13:13] Jeremy Linden: I tihnk we should probably advertise the fact that any Resident can edit most of the wiki... People who know how wikis work understand intrinsically, but I think most folks just think it's a static knowledge base.
[13:14] Jeremy Linden: Hm. Let me get back to you on that, Arawn. I know what changed, but I don't know if I'm supposed to broadcast it yet (it's not inherently bad) :-)
[13:14] s a too-exclusive "club", the active wiki-editors. But I can imagine it getting too *inclusive*, too.
[13:15] only tangentially related to that new TOS: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Teen_Safety_Guidelines #Stay_anonymous is a little puzzling
[13:15] Jeremy Linden: It's nice to strike a good balance. Personally, I'm pretty envious of http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Main_Page
[13:15] Aargle Zymurgy: crap... can't figure out how to make it a bullet point
[13:16] Aargle Zymurgy: duh... toss on a *
[13:16] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Is that http://wiki.secondlife.com  ?
[13:17] Jeremy Linden: Arawn, it's the wiki for Guild Wars. It's an interesting system they've got set up, where the company that makes the game is providing the wiki and servers, but the wiki itself is entirely maintained and governed by their community.
[13:18] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Rather like a Guildwars Users Group
[13:18] Jeremy Linden: The end result is pretty well-constructed, as far as wikis I've seen. I particularly like some of their rules, like "don't revert something more than once, or else you'll be accused of edit wars"
[13:18] Adamburp Adamczyk: jeremy, is it possible to ask for a mainl;and sim rating to be changed do you know?
[13:18] Adamburp Adamczyk has pinged you.
[13:19] Aargle Zymurgy: /me ponders whether he should visit the open sores meeting.
[13:19] Jeremy Linden: Adam, if you could make a very good case for it, maybe. I was able to convince Guy to change this region to a G rating because it's largely Linden-inhabited, and we don't want to keep out any of the teens who will be able to access the main grid in the coming year.
[13:20] Adamburp Adamczyk: heheh
[13:20] Adamburp Adamczyk: i wnt to kep them out of mine
[13:21] Adamburp Adamczyk: /me is not happy at having to lock out all his land from open access to access lsit only
[13:21] up and move to Zindra. *wink*
[13:21] Adamburp Adamczyk: might have to
[13:21] Adamburp Adamczyk: but i lvoe my land
[13:21] Aargle Zymurgy: nuts... I gotta go. you guys have a great day
[13:21] Jeremy Linden: Thanks for coming, Aargle.
[13:22] Zindra real estate is completely insane right now... lots and lots for sale, at absurd prices... and yet I see it turn over at those absurd prices, too. It's like the old days of land-flipping, only accelerated.
[13:22] Adamburp Adamczyk: /me would like the land changed to "mature"
[13:23] Adamburp Adamczyk: /me LOVES having linden labs as lnadlord
[13:23] Jeremy Linden: /me is glad his alt bought his land in 2005.
[13:23] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): Adam the chances of having a sim rating change on mainland is almost zip
[13:23] Adamburp Adamczyk: may take a day or two to get a reply, but they're pretty good at helping out, such things as region restarts etc
[13:24] Adamburp Adamczyk: always worht asking
[13:24] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): unless you are the only person owning land on it
[13:24] Adamburp Adamczyk: if you can make a good enough case
[13:24] re bringing in a whole mini-continent of G-rated stuff, but not all the residents who used to use it... so maybe an extra glut on the G market
[13:24] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): but there might be three other people that love the pg rating
[13:24] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Every parcel effected would have to consent?
[13:24] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): so you would need to get everyone to go in on it
[13:25] Jeremy Linden: Yes. I would not expect to see any changes to mainland maturity ratings. "Making good case" would probably be along the lines of proving it was improperly zoned in the first place.
[13:26] Adamburp Adamczyk: then if needs be i'll just abandon my land and move to zindra
[13:26] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): Ive seen tons of PG sims having private resideces with sex beds and naked pics on the walls
[13:26] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): lol
[13:26] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): lol
[13:27] Jeremy Linden: Sadly, that doesn't make it right, Bronson :-P
[13:27] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): oh I know
[13:27] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): but it always cracks me up when I see that on PG land
[13:28] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Sex and Nudity might be offered in evidence, that a PG rating was inappropriate
[13:28] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): I used to AR that
[13:28] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): but I dont anymore
[13:28] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Period of Gestation Land?/
[13:28] Random Person: perhaps LL should consider only allowing confirmed regions who are inspected by a teama ssigned to do such work, before being allowed to be registered in the main search
[13:29] Random Person: more of a project to regulate the situation
[13:29] Adamburp Adamczyk: /me is not happy 'bout land situation
[13:30] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): I think the people that bought the land in a pg sim who promptly rezzed their bdsm stuff just didnt pay attetion to the land rating
[13:30] Jeremy Linden: I can't really speculate on that, Random.
[13:30] Random Person: creating a new system for the search, in other words, that words along side a certificate based system
[13:30] Random Person: lol
[13:30] Random Person: nevermind
[13:31] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Minds me of the Griefer, who sold his services as estate manager.
[13:31] do you have a whole region?
[13:31] Jeremy Linden: It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would be very hard for someone to "look good for inspection" and THEN rez their BDSM stuff. :-)
[13:32] Adamburp Adamczyk: no
[13:32] Adamburp Adamczyk: but i chaged my orbs from open, to access list
[13:32] Random Person: what im suggesting is something like a verification system, once the zone is verified by admins, it can be added to the filtered built-in search
[13:33] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): A Fifty Meter Club might work, with walls around the stuff under access list, and then a bouncing space on top
[13:33] Jeremy Linden: I understand, Random... I just wonder what happens 5 minutes after a place gets "verified" :-)
[13:33] of abandoned and otherwise vacant Mature land, which would keep the self-proclaimed teens out just as well as Zindra
[13:33] Random Person: well if there is any violation, land should be probably seized if against the set terms
[13:34] Random Person: sounds like it would cripple land sales
[13:34] Random Person: lol
[13:34] Random Person: because not everyone wants to be a verified user
[13:34] that policy alone would change things, without having to vet the listings in advance.
[13:34] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): If they're Dutch, they aren't allowed to cause pain to the Duyck
[13:34] Random Person: but Blue Mars for example makes people register builder accounts
[13:34] Random Person: and you'll rarely see offensive things
[13:35] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): sounds a boring place'
[13:35] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): been there, looked at it, came back here
[13:35] Random Person: well thats why you should persue a rated M or Rated X sim
[13:35] Random Person: to have more freedom
[13:35] Random Person: lol
[13:35] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): /me wonders why he's alowed into Zindra
[13:36] Jeremy Linden: Ahem. Are you too young to be on Zindra, Arawn?
[13:36] you mean besides having Payment Info Used ?
[13:36] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): no, just doesnt like boobies
[13:37] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Not my the hair of my chinny chin chin, but I don't want Harry Linden to know that.
[13:37] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): harry is gone
[13:37] Jeremy Linden: /me facepalms.
[13:37] Random Person: what was the topic again
[13:37] Random Person: lol
[13:37] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Does Payment Info prove me over eighteen?
[13:38] according to the policy, it's enough to get you in
[13:38] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): There is a problem, I've seen, with Zindra, but it down't bother me, so I haven't ARred it
[13:38] Jeremy Linden: As far as adult content is concerned, payment info in file is verification.
[13:38] Jeremy Linden: ...unless you're a teen. In which case you can't get off G rated regions anyhow.
[13:40] Jeremy Linden: Oh, and hello to the folks who haven't said anything yet! I hadn't panned my camera out in awhile. Welcome to my office hour :-)
[13:40] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): lol
[13:40] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): When the last location is unavailable, I've sometimes rezzed on Zindra, which should be more offensive, to some, than I've seen reason for.
[13:41] Tyldie Ishtari: hi, ^^ i'll be honest, what's the scope of this debate? I kind of hopped in mid topic
[13:41] Enomis Hurikan: sorry
[13:41] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): anything
[13:41] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): its open discussion
[13:41] Litterbox Leopard (bronson.blackadder): I like monkeys
[13:41] Jeremy Linden: I think we're pretty much just chatting right now, Tyldie. Technically, I'm best-equipped to talk about Second Life's help systems (online help, the wiki, etc)
[13:42] Tyldie Ishtari: oh ok. monkeys are neat =p but i'm more of a dog person.
[13:42] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): De Scope of De Bait is whatever gets nibbled
[13:42] Enomis Hurikan: bye bye
[13:42] Jeremy Linden: Bye Enomis. Thanks for coming.
[13:42] Tyldie Ishtari: bai ^^
[13:42] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Documentation is where you look up everything else, so anything goes.
[13:43] Jeremy Linden: As I mentioned earlier, I might be adding a bit more structure to these office hours in the coming quarter, based on some upcoming online help stuff we've been working on.
[13:43] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): I was just looking for something I'd edited, on the wiki, but I don't recall what it's called
[13:43] Adamburp Adamczyk: jeremy, can i offer 1 suggerstion re diocumentation?
[13:43] Adamburp Adamczyk has pinged you.
[13:43] Jeremy Linden: Arawn, you should be able to find it in "my contributions" at the top of the page, if you are logged in.
[13:44] Jeremy Linden: Sure, Adam.
[13:44] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Andrew just opens with Announcements, then throws the floor open
[13:44] Adamburp Adamczyk: ref "ghosting"#
[13:44] Adamburp Adamczyk: we coudl use a dedicated article on it, and how to resolve it
[13:44] Jeremy Linden: Hm. I feel like Kate did some work on this a little over a year ago...
[13:44] Adamburp Adamczyk: yes , but needs clarifying - for 2 reasons
[13:45] Adamburp Adamczyk: 1) i see a lot of forum postings onmit
[13:45] Tyldie Ishtari: with this merge will there be any LSL changes, of note?
[13:45] Adamburp Adamczyk: on it*
[13:45] Adamburp Adamczyk: 2) i was ghosted 3 days ago
[13:45] Adamburp Adamczyk: at my home
[13:45] Jeremy Linden: Which merge, Tyldie?
[13:45] Tyldie Ishtari: the teen merge? i had to sign a new ToS today, so i figure it's here or close
[13:45] Adamburp Adamczyk: and i had a huge problem in live chat to get a region restart to release me
[13:46] Jeremy Linden: Adam, is this sort of what you're looking for? https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/KB2/Login_failure #The_system_is_logging_you_out
[13:47] Random Person: link doesn't work for me
[13:47] Jeremy Linden: Ah. I don't think LSL is any different for teens than it is here, so I don't forsee any immediate LSL changes. It's possible I'm not aware of some changes to avatar information functions, though.
[13:48] Adamburp Adamczyk: mostly
[13:48] Adamburp Adamczyk: could yu pass that onto whoever deals wioth support?
[13:48] Jeremy Linden: Weird, Random. Does the link work for everyone else?
[13:48] Tyldie Ishtari: oh, ok. cuz i'm just getting into, i'd hate to find out i learned things that would change.
[13:48] Adamburp Adamczyk: to use an idiom - " i spat my dummy out" over that
[13:48] Jeremy Linden: Adam, pass what on? Your request, or this article?
[13:48] Adamburp Adamczyk: that article
[13:49] Tyldie Ishtari: when i click the link i just get a pure black screen
[13:49] link works for me Jeremy)
[13:49] Qie Niangao has pinged you.
[13:49] Jeremy Linden: Support asked me to write that a couple weeks ago. They know :-)
[13:49] Tyldie Ishtari: nvm, works in my out of SL browser. ^^;;
[13:49] Adamburp Adamczyk: i argued with live chat who point blank refused my request for a region restart - despite it being a mainland sim, and only "me" and my alt being on that sim
[13:50] Adamburp Adamczyk: /me was NOT rude to them btw
[13:50] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Was you alt unable to log off? They should be able to use Linden Powers to fix that.
[13:50] Jeremy Linden: Hm. Well, if that ever happens again, we call it "stuck presence" internally. It's a well-known issue, and our support staff *should* be happy to help you fix it. I'm sorry to hear about your individual case :-/
[13:50] Adamburp Adamczyk: it didn;t work
[13:51] Adamburp Adamczyk: it only got resolved after i threatened to raise a customer comoplaint
[13:51] s a hideous work-around... not sure it should be documented, it's so ugly
[13:51] Jeremy Linden: Qie, are you going to suggest crashing the region?
[13:51] Adamburp Adamczyk: quickest, easiest way is to restart the region
[13:51] not quite that ugly
[13:51] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): /me'd like to know how to crash a regiono
[13:51] Adamburp Adamczyk: then clear cache before logging in
[13:52] re persistent enough about logging in to a different sim, eventually it will let you... then if you can make your way to the sim where your ghost is, things resolve (usually after a re-log)
[13:53] s probably a bug in Presence that you can get in by trying over and over and over
[13:53] Jeremy Linden: Yikes.
[13:53] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Oh, is how to crash a sim something you were supposed to document, this week?
[13:53] Jeremy Linden: I hope not, Arawn.
[13:54] Jeremy Linden: I have, however, heard people try to justify region-crashing tools by saying they use them to un-stick people.
[13:55] Jeremy Linden: (I do NOT endorse or condone this practice)
[13:55] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): Just AR yourself, for failure to log off completely
[13:55] Adamburp Adamczyk: heh
[13:55] Jeremy Linden: Good luck logging in to file the AR :-)
[13:55] Adamburp Adamczyk: it was resolved, eventually
[13:55] Random Person: what is todays topic again
[13:55] Random Person: lol
[13:56] Adamburp Adamczyk: it only took an hour to go for the easy fix
[13:56] Jeremy Linden: Random, I don't usually set a topic. I tend to run this as more of a freeform discussion, with the caveat that documentation issues get priority.
[13:56] I did want to raise this doc topic again, briefly: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Teen_Safety_Guidelines #Stay_anonymous
[13:56] Random Person: oh ok
[13:56] Jeremy Linden: Ah, right. What about it, Qie?
[13:56] m not sure it really wants to be saying that folks should get ARd for asking people's age.
[13:57] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): If someone asks your age, shouldn't they be ARred as possible Teens?
[13:58] it just seems like something teens *especially* might want to know
[13:58] Jeremy Linden: It's a touchy subject, for sure. In general, that kind of thing may fall under the "disclosure" section of the community standards http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php
[13:59] Jeremy Linden: Even for adults; context is important, of course.
[14:00] I understand some sicko adult could go around angling for teens by asking them their age... but the non-sicko adults might have good reason to want to know, too.
[14:01] Kake Broek: very morale
[14:01] and the teens in particular might want to know that they're dealing with other teens (or at least somebody purporting to be a teen... which is a problem, admittedly)
[14:01] Jeremy Linden: Keep in mind that ARs are investigated on a case-by-case basis. This includes inspection of the chatlogs in question.
[14:02] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): An astrologer would want your birthdate, so a teen or perv might play at astrology
[14:02] Time Minder: You have been online for 1 hours.
[14:02] Kake Broek: soviet investigation
[14:03] so that means work for whatever team polices ARs... it just seems weird and artificial. Not that SL conversations should start with A/S/L or anything
[14:03] s really the guidance LL wants to give to Teens, then the documentation reflects it. It just seems unwise.
[14:04] Jeremy Linden: We want to make sure that the teens are as safe as possible, of course. I can't really comment on the politics of the situation, but where children are concerned, it's better to be safe than sorry :-)
[14:05] s the guidance LL has, then there's nothing wrong with how it's documented, I guess.
[14:06] Jeremy Linden: Ah, and it's past 2pm! Any final thoughts before I post the transcript?
[14:06] Arawn Graalrd (arawn.spitteler): /me wonders if he should finally have a thought

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